Almost all of the commandements in the old testament are quite uninteresting when you transliterate them. They are all quite straight forward and since soceity deems how we should translate it when it is converted to english, you will see various political entites using their influence on said translations.
The parables and stories, however are far more fun to pick on. Feel free to start a new thread about that.
The only thing that affects your journey to heaven is your personal relationship with Jesus Christ. (And the true "unpardonable sin"? Maybe.) But suicide is never mentioned as the "unpardonable sin". (That would be "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" - source - Matthew 12:32; I can't really further comment on this passage because I don't understand it, to be honest.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jul 2 2005, 11:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jul 2 2005, 11:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jul 2 2005, 09:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jul 2 2005, 09:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "Murder" applies to killing other people, not yourself. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Murder is generally defined as taking of life, with premeditation, unless you are prone to random outbursts of completely incoherent actions I would assume taking your own life is premeditated.
The bible never says its good or bad, remains neutral on the topic, which is why you can not use it to condone, nor disprove either side.
Of course, murder is quite throughly approved of, especially of "enemies" of the church.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this was already covered, and seems to be a relatively accurate analysis,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are probably aware that the Bible strictly forbids murdering anyone. Therefore, some people have stated that people who commit suicide will be judged as murderers (of themselves) and therefore could not reasonably expect to go to heaven. However, the Bible reveals that people can not “murder” themselves. As one example, look at the Ten Commandments in Exodus chapter 20, verses 1-17 (Exodus 20:1-17). The first four Commandments specify our behavior towards God:
1. You shall have no other gods before Me. 2. You shall not make for yourself a carved image. . . . 3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain. . . . 4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
The last six Commandments specify our behavior towards other people:
5. Honor your father and your mother. . . . 6. You shall not murder. 7. You shall not commit adultery. 8. You shall not steal. 9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. 10. You shall not covet . . . anything that is your neighbor’s.
Notice that with the exception of the sixth commandment, you can not do them to yourself. This makes sense when you realize that the book of Exodus is one of the books of “The Law.” That is, it primarily defines civil laws—the type of laws that would be tried in a court today. <b>Therefore, applying such laws “against yourself” makes no sense. </b>You would find the same concept in other areas of the Bible—<span style='color:red'>murder applies to killing other people, not yourself</span>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do you mean by 'Blasphemy against the holy spirit'. Like using his name in inappropriate ways? Make jokes at his expense? Defiling virgins in churches?
As if the bible never condones murder... ignorance at its finest.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible (Various passages)+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible (Various passages))</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad/Mom Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents 1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB) 2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quite off topic, but true nonetheless.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Notice that with the exception of the sixth commandment, you can not do them to yourself. This makes sense when you realize that the book of Exodus is one of the books of “The Law.” That is, it primarily defines civil laws—the type of laws that would be tried in a court today. Therefore, applying such laws “against yourself” makes no sense. You would find the same concept in other areas of the Bible—murder applies to killing other people, not yourself. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except for the minor fact that if we were to use those laws... everyone on this board would be dead. I'd also like to point out those are not the laws that were given to the people, those laws are found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. If it wasn't for that massive mistake I would forgive him for calling suicide (not murder). :-)
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What do you mean by 'Blasphemy against the holy spirit'. Like using his name in inappropriate ways? Make jokes at his expense? Defiling virgins in churches <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Blasphemy against the holy spirit has nothing to do with the commandments, in fact it is actually used to refer to people who do not believe in god/jesus/etc. Basically it is believing in another religion not christianity. I do hope I explained that well enough.
Ah, well then it's a good thing hell doesn't exist <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Thanks for that Cyndane. Never heard it called that before.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jul 2 2005, 04:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jul 2 2005, 04:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As if the bible never condones murder... ignorance at its finest.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible (Various passages)+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible (Various passages))</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad/Mom Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents 1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB) 2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quite off topic, but true nonetheless.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Notice that with the exception of the sixth commandment, you can not do them to yourself. This makes sense when you realize that the book of Exodus is one of the books of “The Law.” That is, it primarily defines civil laws—the type of laws that would be tried in a court today. Therefore, applying such laws “against yourself” makes no sense. You would find the same concept in other areas of the Bible—murder applies to killing other people, not yourself. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except for the minor fact that if we were to use those laws... everyone on this board would be dead. I'd also like to point out those are not the laws that were given to the people, those laws are found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. If it wasn't for that massive mistake I would forgive him for calling suicide (not murder). :-)
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What do you mean by 'Blasphemy against the holy spirit'. Like using his name in inappropriate ways? Make jokes at his expense? Defiling virgins in churches <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Blasphemy against the holy spirit has nothing to do with the commandments, in fact it is actually used to refer to people who do not believe in god/jesus/etc. Basically it is believing in another religion not christianity. I do hope I explained that well enough. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You still missed the point. The last 2 sentences sum it up very well.
<b>Therefore, applying such laws “against yourself” makes no sense. </b> You are saying it's ok to make this one exception I guess.
<b>You would find the same concept in other areas of the Bible—murder applies to killing other people, not yourself.</b> Suicide ... is not viewed as murder.
He also said <!--QuoteBegin-article+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (article)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This makes sense when you realize that the book of Exodus is one of the books of “The Law <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which makes his apologetic arguement that much more false, since he doesn't even recgonize the "holy codified laws" found in Lec, and Deut.
If one is to make such assumptions one needs to have a grasp of what the book is even saying, and he clearly does not.
*Edit*
I do not believe it is wise to kill oneself, but when you are trying to use the bible as a reference, it only praises suicide when it is to kill enemies, and then takes a neutral stance in every other instance.
Which means you can not use it to determine if you will go to heaven or not. Since it is not even remotely suggesting either side of the issue.
I was a bit surprised by this, but then again each religion has it owns perks/querks.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jul 2 2005, 05:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jul 2 2005, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He also said <!--QuoteBegin-article+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (article)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This makes sense when you realize that the book of Exodus is one of the books of “The Law <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which makes his apologetic arguement that much more false, since he doesn't even recgonize the "holy codified laws" found in Lec, and Deut.
If one is to make such assumptions one needs to have a grasp of what the book is even saying, and he clearly does not.
*Edit*
I do not believe it is wise to kill oneself, but when you are trying to use the bible as a reference, it only praises suicide when it is to kill enemies, and then takes a neutral stance in every other instance.
Which means you can not use it to determine if you will go to heaven or not. Since it is not even remotely suggesting either side of the issue.
I was a bit surprised by this, but then again each religion has it owns perks/querks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "If one is to make such assumptions one needs to have a grasp of what the book is even saying, and he clearly does not." shows us that you have no respect for anyone's oppinion other than your own, and you find it necessary to once again be condescending. The fact that he quoted Exodus and you prefer Lec and Deut only shows different avenues of approach, NOT that you are better than he or more knowledgeable.
Get off your high horse Cyndane, you <b>KNOW</b> where it will get you.
Why the hell are we geting into semantics about whether 'thou shalt not kill' is an accurate translation again?
Oh, that's right, because Cyndane's in the thread, and she has an axe to grind with the bible, and for that matter, anyone who doesn't accept what she says outright.
Never mind the fact that it's a moot point, since EVERYONE is a sinner (<i>Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.</i>) Also, never mind the fact that the New Testament teaches salvation by Grace (<i>Romans 8:1 - For there is now <span style='color:white'>no condemnation</span> for those who are in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:8ff - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— <span style='color:white'>not by works, so that no one can boast.</span></i>) Instead of actually considering how someone gets to heaven at all, we'll just sit around and listen to Cyndane tell us how wrong the bible is, because she, in her years of theological study thinks it is. Even though, of course, this study of hers didn't include the fact that the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90840&view=findpost&p=1440407' target='_blank'>New Testament was written in Greek, not Hebrew,</a> and that Christians don't believe that you need to work your way to heaven.
No, instead, let's debate an irrelevant non-issue, and listen to someone who only listens to things that support her view.
Typical, ignoring the actual on topic part of the post to attempt to attack some round about point.
[off topic] <!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If one is to make such assumptions one needs to have a grasp of what the book is even saying, and he clearly does not." shows us that you have no respect for anyone's oppinion other than your own, and you find it necessary to once again be condescending. The fact that he quoted Exodus and you prefer Lec and Deut only shows different avenues of approach, NOT that you are better than he or more knowledgeable. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact he called Exodus the civil laws shows little knowledge on his part, especially since they are labeled "The Holy Codified Laws" in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Tad bit ignorant I'd say.
Examples... <!--QuoteBegin-Bible (NSAB) biblegateway.com+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible (NSAB) biblegateway.com)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lev 1: The Law of Burnt Offerings Lev 2: The Law of Grain Offerings Lev 3: The Law of Peace Offerings Lev 25: The Law of Redemption <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
@Legion: I have absolutely no axe to grind with the bible, nor christianity in any way. Some of you seem obessed on the fact I do not happen to like <i> any organized </i> religion. Key words are italized for your benefit. In addition as was pointed out in other threads and has no bearing on this one, but you must "do good" works if you wish to stay saved. What is amusing is you ignored those posts as well. You never even addressed those points and thusly it has fallen off the main topic area.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legion+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legion)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Instead of actually considering how someone gets to heaven at all, we'll just sit around and listen to Cyndane tell us how wrong the bible is, because she, in her years of theological study thinks it is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have actually defended your bible quite a few times, and I would not mind doing so again. Especially when people do not understand what it is saying, as this thread is quite evident to that. [/off topic]
Now, that we are clear on those points, continue with possible dicussions, although there isn't any really since all but christianity are quite against suicide and state as such. As evidenced by earlier posts.
Since the question begs to be asked.
Why would one religion which 'values' life so highly not state it is wrong to commit suicide in their holy book?
<a href='http://watkins.gospelcom.net/suicide.htm' target='_blank'>Yet another perspective</a> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Can a Christian commit suicide and still go to heaven? </b> Suicide is a personal choice made by the person who commits it. Only that person is ultimately responsible for his or her actions--or are they? Many health care professionals believe that suicide is an irrational act--sort of a "temporary insanity."
If this is truly the case then the haunting question of "will a Christian who commits suicide still go to heaven?"seems to be answered. We are judged on the basis of our ability to make rational decisions. And as we'll discuss later in chapter 18, we don't go to heaven because of our "good deeds" or go to hell because of our "bad actions." Heaven and hell are determined by our decision to accept or reject Christ's offer of pardon.
However, if a person willfully and rationally decides that they, not God, have control of their own life and death, then that would seem to be the ultimate rejection and idolatry--making one's self god.
It's a tough call, but we can be assured that God will treat each person with a careful balance of justice and mercy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.tbm.org/willsuicide.htm' target='_blank'>Another well written article: Will Suicide send someone to hell?</a> Take the time to read it through, he raises some good points. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Today's Question</span>:</b> I'm not a Catholic; but, my mother was raised Catholic so many of her beliefs were handed down to us. I am a Christian with strong beliefs in Jesus and I believe my friend Jesus loves us even when we make mistakes and suicide is wrong but I think it is a mistake even one a Christian can do. My mother says that one who commits suicide goes to Hell.
<i>From my studies, the only thing that would send us to Hell would be to deny Jesus as our Savior</i>. But that even in believing Jesus as our Savior does not mean we will be perfect even in death or even strong in life no matter how hard we want to we strong in life.
I have wondered about this because I know of a Christian who loved Jesus with all her heart and suffered from co-dependency in a dysfunctional home. She suffered for so long and asked Jesus so carry her into heaven to live with Him as she sliced her wrists 3 1/2 inches on one wrist, 3 inches on the other wrist and 4 inches in the upper thigh. She wrote that her Hell was on earth and that she couldn't stand one more day of it. She wrote that she prayed to God, as she performed her murder on herself, that He would forgive her for this sin as He had forgiven her of the others she had done in the past. She stated that the Bible says that He will not allow one to stand more than one can bear and that He is our strength. She stated that she wasn't strong--knowing the Lord is strong but not her and asked to be carried to heaven to live with Him from that moment on.
I've asked a couple of other pastors this question but they will not answer at all. I know even pastors are human and that we can't look into the future and know the answers of heaven and hell for each individual. Do you have any opinions on the matter?
Sincerely,
Mary Bell
<b><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Bible Answer</span>:</b> In response to suicide: The Bible describes two believers who committed suicide: King Saul and Judas. For sure Judas went to hell. Peter said about him in Acts 1:16-18:
and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus--he was one of our number and shared in this ministry." (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.
This Scripture implies that Judas was not saved.
The other story is about King Saul. He was fatally wounded in battle, so to avoid torture he killed himself. From David's words about Saul, it appears that Saul went to heaven. He says, 2 Sam 1:23 "Saul and Jonathan--in life they were loved and gracious, and in death they were not parted..." We know that Jonathan was godly, so if Saul and Jonathan were not parted in death, this would mean Saul is with Jonathan in heaven. I should also note that this passage may simply mean that they died together in battle, not necessarily that they are still with each other in death. At any rate, Saul killed himself only because he was trying to avoid torture, and he was going to die soon anyway.
Mary, the way I explain suicide is this: I tell believers to fear God enough not to take the risk. You could lose your soul by committing suicide, so it's better to simply play it safe and trust God to make you happier. I lean to the idea that most, if not all, cases of suicide lead to damnation. I wouldn't bet on anyone going to heaven who committed suicide. I think the odds are against the person. Besides, suicide is the ultimate statement of unbelief. People commit suicide because they don't have faith that God will help them, and we are saved by faith.
We have received many angry emails over my answer, usually because someone has lost a close friend or relative to suicide. Here is a sample email that represents many irate emails along with my response.
<b><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Reaction</span>:</b> I may be reacting in the flesh and you probably won’t even get this, but I cannot sleep until I write this. Maybe I should write it and then click delete. I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ that I am so very grateful to have and grow. I lost a dear childhood friend today to suicide. He was an awesome athlete in high school. He was an awesome Christian who did not mind showing it to his peers. He was an All-American High School Honor Roll student. His entire family are Christians.
I was disturbed today, that my little sister said he is going to hell. I do not believe this. I do not believe the sure ticket to HELL is to commit suicide. My God is more loving and merciful than that to his people.
I am disturbed at your opinion about suicide, also. I do not believe it has a place on the net for those people searching for answers and comfort at a time like this. It is an opinion not an answer. No where in the Bible does it say suicide is a sure ticket to Hell. I cannot find anything in the Bible that says you go to hell for committing suicide.
I would like to encourage you to take your opinion of something unknown off the Internet. I think it is very damaging to those who have a personal relationship with God and those who I hope come to know him.
Ann
<b><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Tom’s Response:</span></b> I sympathize with your grief, but it would be a mistake for me to tell people that they can make heaven and still commit suicide. God is merciful and if people make heaven despite suicide, wonderful! But there is no scripture to prove you can, so I believe it is best to fear God so much that you would never commit such an act. Peter says, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and sinner" (1 Pet 4:18)
<span style='color:white'>Committing suicide is not a sure ticket to hell, because there is no ticket to hell. It is the other way around, Jesus is the ticket to heaven,</span> however, Jesus said many will say that He is Lord, but He will reply, "Depart from me." Faith is not simply mentally agreeing to the facts of the gospel, but being changed by the gospel. And then one must continue in faith and not give in to unbelief. There is no "once saved, always saved" promise from God. Even if it were true that someone was saved, that does not mean that his or her salvation is "unconditionally secured." One still must persevere and trust God to the end, not end their lives through suicide.
You said that my answer is "very damaging to those who have a personal relationship with God." How could my answer damage someone’s faith?
Maybe what you mean is that someone like yourself who lost a friend through suicide will not be comforted with this article because I refuse to license suicide as a gateway to heaven. For sure my answer won't comfort you.
The article is meant to discourage suicide not to comfort those who lost love ones through suicide. I’m not thinking of you when I write this article, but those who are contemplating this act.
I do understand your grief, but imagine if I told people that they could still make heaven and commit suicide. That message may be what they wanted to hear so they could be given a false sense of security that they will leave their unhappiness here and enter glory in the next life.
A similar message is given to suicide bombers in the Islamic faith. They think that if they kill themselves and others through a Jihad they will enter a wonderful heaven full of virgin wives. This false doctrine gives people courage to go through such a diabolical act. It should almost go without saying, but any Muslim who murders others through suicide will not make heaven, for the Scriptures say, "No murderer has eternal life" (1 John 3:15).
I think there is a delicate correlation between that and Christian suicide. As long as people think they will enter heaven by such an act, perhaps we unwittingly give people courage to go through with it. I refuse to give anyone such false hope.
Despite what I said, my prayers are with you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would like to point out that the Bible was(is maybe?) a living document, and as times changed so did the rules sent down by God. All of the rules (kill witches/non-believers) have been superceded by Jesus Christ's message of love. The is one of the fundamental principles of Christianity that you fail to even recognize.
Actually Legionnaired, I asked because I was curious and I felt it had relevance seeing as, for this topic, I had to presume there was a god and so was curious as to what he said on the matter.
I like the way this is explained. <a href='http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/suicide.htm' target='_blank'>Suicide, A Quick Ticket To Hell</a> Unfortunately I cant copy/paste the contents.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jul 2 2005, 09:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jul 2 2005, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I like the way this is explained. <a href='http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/suicide.htm' target='_blank'>Suicide, A Quick Ticket To Hell</a> Unfortunately I cant copy/paste the contents. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "Therefore, thou art inexcusable O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself: for thou that judgest doeth the same things. But we are sure that the judgement of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgement of God?"
- Romans 2:1-3
Leave judgement up to God. This statement is pointed at the link above, specifically, to all Christians, generally.
Alrighty, lets address everyones points at one time. Lets start with depots first post.
Oh yes, in addition, all of my bible quotes are taken from biblegateway.com and are the NSAB (New Standard American Bible) they seem to be the most accurate on their translations, even if I do occasionally disagree.
<!--QuoteBegin-depots article+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (depots article)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bible Answer: In response to suicide: The Bible describes two believers who committed suicide: King Saul and Judas. For sure Judas went to hell. Peter said about him in Acts 1:16-18: <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong, there are actually six references to the old testament and in actuality, Judas was forgiven, becaue taking his own life was his remorse. The bible describes said suicide as "acceptable" for his punishment of betrayal.
However, lets take a closer look at all six references in the old testament.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible Numbers 11 12-18+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible Numbers 11 12-18)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So Moses said to the LORD, "Why have You [c]been so hard on Your servant? And why have I not found favor in Your sight, that You have laid the burden of all this people on me?
12"Was it I who conceived all this people? Was it I who brought them forth, that You should say to me, 'Carry them in your bosom as a (M)nurse carries a nursing infant, to the land which (N)You swore to their fathers'?
13"Where am I to get meat to give to (O)all this people? For they weep before me, saying, 'Give us meat that we may eat!'
14"(P)I alone am not able to carry all this people, because it is too burdensome for me.
15"(Q)So if You are going to deal thus with me, please kill me at once, if I have found favor in Your sight, and do not let me see my wretchedness."
16The LORD therefore said to Moses, "Gather for Me ®seventy men from the elders of Israel, (S)whom you know to be the elders of the people and their officers and bring them to the tent of meeting, and let them take their stand there with you.
17"(T)Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of (U)the Spirit who is upon you, and will put Him upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you will not bear it all alone.
18"Say to the people, '(V)Consecrate yourselves for tomorrow, and you shall eat meat; for you have wept (W)in the ears of the LORD, saying, "Oh that someone would give us meat to eat! For we were well-off in Egypt." Therefore the LORD will give you meat and you shall eat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quite clearly, and we all know Moses never died by suicide, however it doesn't mean he didn't contemplate it, and as usual there is a neutral stance on the issue. Again, all he did was contemplate it. The fact your first article left out this quite important passage since Moses was a very influencial person is... sad.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible Judges 9 52-57+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible Judges 9 52-57)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 52So Abimelech came to the tower and fought against it, and approached the entrance of the tower to burn it with fire.
53But (A)a certain woman threw an upper millstone on Abimelech's head, crushing his skull.
54Then (B)he called quickly to the young man, his armor bearer, and said to him, "Draw your sword and kill me, so that it will not be said of me, 'A woman slew him.'" So the young man pierced him through, and he died.
55When the men of Israel saw that Abimelech was dead, each departed to his home.
56Thus (Z)God repaid the wickedness of Abimelech, which he had done to his father in killing his seventy brothers.
57Also God returned all the wickedness of the men of Shechem on their heads, and the curse of Jotham the son of Jerubbaal came upon them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In this passage the king thought he was mortally wounded, a stone could probably do that, but was unlikely. He asked to be killed, so it was suicide even if someone else did it, (Supports that suicide assistant dr, interesting eh?). In addition, he was forgiven his sins, since he completed what god asked him to do as well. His suicide had no bearing upon that at all. The author of the article did mention this passage, good for him.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible Judges 16: 28-31+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible Judges 16: 28-31)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 28(J)Then Samson called to the LORD and said, "O Lord GOD, please remember me and please strengthen me just this time, O God, that I may at once (K)be avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes."
29Samson grasped the two middle pillars on which the house rested, and braced himself against them, the one with his right hand and the other with his left.
30And Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" And he bent with all his might so that the house fell on the lords and all the people who were in it. So the dead whom he killed at his death were more than those whom he killed in his life.
31Then his brothers and all his father's household came down, took him, brought him up and buried him between Zorah and Eshtaol in the tomb of Manoah his father. (L)Thus he had judged Israel twenty years. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In this one is the famous story of samson, in which he kills all of his enemies and asked god to assist him in this suicide. Once again, it is in a positive light, because it was a holy war, albeit only one battle. Again, the other author fails to mention this, which is even more saddening, since this is clearly the best example of suicide in the bible that all children know of, or at least should.
<!--QuoteBegin-2 Samuel 17: 22-24+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2 Samuel 17: 22-24)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 22Then David and all the people who were with him arose and crossed the Jordan; and by dawn not even one remained who had not crossed the Jordan.
23Now when Ahithophel saw that his counsel was not followed, he saddled his donkey and arose and went to his home, to (U)his city, and (V)set his house in order, and (W)strangled himself; thus he died and was buried in the grave of his father.
24Then David came to (X)Mahanaim. And Absalom crossed the Jordan, he and all the men of Israel with him. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Another suicide in the old testament, and this one was of sadness and despression, probably the most relevant of today for most suicide victims, which once again it is in a neutral fashion, nothing is said about whether or not Ahithophel goes to heaven or not. Again, your author failed to mention that completely, which doesn't surprise me anymore.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible 1 Kings 16:15-20+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible 1 Kings 16:15-20)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 15In the twenty-seventh year of Asa king of Judah, Zimri reigned seven days at Tirzah. Now the people were camped against (A)Gibbethon, which belonged to the Philistines.
16The people who were camped heard it said, "Zimri has conspired and has also struck down the king." Therefore all Israel made Omri, the commander of the army, king over Israel that day in the camp.
17Then Omri and all Israel with him went up from Gibbethon and besieged Tirzah.
18When Zimri saw that the city was taken, he went into the citadel of the king's house and burned the king's house over him with fire, and (B)died,
20(D)Now the rest of the acts of Zimri and his conspiracy which he carried out, are they not written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, another suicide and yet still no punishment persay. In fact it is so neutral that once again neither is stated. As usual the author of depots article fails to mention it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible Jonah 4+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible Jonah 4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1But it greatly displeased Jonah and he became (A)angry.
3"Therefore now, O LORD, please (E)take my life from me, for death is (F)better to me than life."
4The LORD said, "Do you have good reason to be angry?"
5Then Jonah went out from the city and sat east of it. There he made a shelter for himself and (G)sat under it in the shade until he could see what would happen in the city.
6So the LORD God appointed a plant and it grew up over Jonah to be a shade over his head to deliver him from his discomfort. And Jonah was extremely happy about the plant.
7But God appointed a worm when dawn came the next day and it attacked the plant and it (H)withered.
8When the sun came up God appointed a scorching (I)east wind, and the (J)sun beat down on Jonah's head so that he became faint and begged with all his soul to die, saying, "(K)Death is better to me than life."
9Then God said to Jonah, "Do you have good reason to be angry about the plant?" And he said, "I have good reason to be angry, even to death."
10Then the LORD said, "You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight.
11"Should I not (L)have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not (M)know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many (N)animals?" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again, someone is asking to be killed and the bible doesn't say if he is or isn't. So again it is up to the apologetics to put up an arguement for or against. I don't think he was, but that is because god was in a merciful mood at the time, as evidented by this pardon of that city.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rammstien+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rammstien)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> would like to point out that the Bible was(is maybe?) a living document, and as times changed so did the rules sent down by God. All of the rules (kill witches/non-believers) have been superceded by Jesus Christ's message of love. The is one of the fundamental principles of Christianity that you fail to even recognize. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd like to point out for you the quote that jesus didn't supercede anything...
17"Do not think that I came to abolish the (V)Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18"For truly I say to you, (W)until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I like the way this is explained. Suicide, A Quick Ticket To Hell Unfortunately I cant copy/paste the contents.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> DarkAti summed it up quite well so I'll leave that one to him. Since I do not wish to even comment.
And while we're at it, the Catholic church has a canonical answer for those to whom it applies: by the will of God.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives. (<a href='http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm' target='_blank'>para 2283</a>)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<edit>Depot: One usually tries to avoid directly contradicting the Catholic church when generalizing about God's willingness (or not) to talk forgiveness. Flip down to <a href='http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm' target='_blank'>para 1030</a>, or for that matter anything else talking about prayers for the dead or purgatory.</edit>
It is ultimately God's decision. We simply don't know for certain, but what a risk it would be. You can be forgiven for any sin if you ask, and are sincere. <b>If you commit suicide, when will you ask for forgiveness? </b> <span style='color:white'>You can't ask for forgiveness for something you intend on doing, that is seeking his forgiveness in advance. </span>He is a caring, gentle, and loving God, but he also is very specific on how he expects us to live and act, in order to obtain that precious gift of eternal life. None of us deserve it, but we can do our best to earn it. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Lets break this down a bit, also that white color is annoying.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It is ultimately God's decision. We simply don't know for certain, but what a risk it would be. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That works, but there is no risk, as it is never defined as a sin.
<!--QuoteBegin-depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You can be forgiven for any sin if you ask, and are sincere. If you commit suicide, when will you ask for forgiveness? You can't ask for forgiveness for something you intend on doing, that is seeking his forgiveness in advance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is nothing to forgive as it is not a sin, nor is it ever defined as one, in fact the bible says it is an acceptable form of remorse, which makes it that much more appealing.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He is a caring, gentle, and loving God, but he also is very specific on how he expects us to live and act, in order to obtain that precious gift of eternal life. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I love the direct contradictions in that one, but that isn't on topic so I shall leave it alone.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> None of us deserve it, but we can do our best to earn it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Typical conservative dogma that has been preached for quite a few years. None of us is worthy yet he supposedly sacrificed his only son... I'm sorry that little bit of complete bullocks does not offer any relevance to this particular topic, especially in this case since there is nothing that has to do with sin, in this case.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane Jul 3 2005+ 11:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane Jul 3 2005 @ 11:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lets break this down a bit, also that white color is annoying.
QUOTE (Depot)
It is ultimately God's decision. We simply don't know for certain, but what a risk it would be.
That works, but there is no risk, as it is never defined as a sin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Murder is a sin, and one who commits suicide is commiting murder. <!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane Jul 3 2005+ 11:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane Jul 3 2005 @ 11:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> QUOTE (depot)
You can be forgiven for any sin if you ask, and are sincere. If you commit suicide, when will you ask for forgiveness? You can't ask for forgiveness for something you intend on doing, that is seeking his forgiveness in advance.
There is nothing to forgive as it is not a sin, nor is it ever defined as one, in fact the bible says it is an acceptable form of remorse, which makes it that much more appealing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As noted above and in prior posts it is indeed a sin.
He is a caring, gentle, and loving God, but he also is very specific on how he expects us to live and act, in order to obtain that precious gift of eternal life.
I love the direct contradictions in that one, but that isn't on topic so I shall leave it alone.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed he is a caring, gentle, and loving God, but this doesn't mean he approves of suicide, so of course it's relevant.
None of us deserve it, but we can do our best to earn it.
Typical conservative dogma that has been preached for quite a few years. None of us is worthy yet he supposedly sacrificed his only son... I'm sorry that little bit of complete bullocks does not offer any relevance to this particular topic, especially in this case since there is nothing that has to do with sin, in this case. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As noted above and in prior posts it is indeed a sin. And it's entirely relevant to this topic. Because you choose not to believe it hardly makes it otherwise.
<!--QuoteBegin-depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Murder is a sin, and one who commits suicide is commiting murder. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Let me answer that with your own quote.
<!--QuoteBegin-depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Notice that with the exception of the sixth commandment, you can not do them to yourself. This makes sense when you realize that the book of Exodus is one of the books of “The Law.” That is, it primarily defines civil laws—the type of laws that would be tried in a court today. Therefore, applying such laws “against yourself” makes no sense. You would find the same concept in other areas of the Bible—murder applies to killing other people, not yourself. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is one...
<!--QuoteBegin-depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "Murder" applies to killing other people, not yourself. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is number two...
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Therefore, applying such laws “against yourself” makes no sense. You are saying it's ok to make this one exception I guess.
You would find the same concept in other areas of the Bible—murder applies to killing other people, not yourself. Suicide ... is not viewed as murder. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is number three...
So... question still remains do you follow the old religious dogma of political interpetations of the bible, like the evangelical site or do you actualy go by what the bible says? (It says nothing about either side.)
All the rest of the points you attempted to refute, you are in contradiction with yourself. I really would suggest taking some time and reflecting on where you stand on this issue as it is evident you don't even know where you stand.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jul 3 2005, 12:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jul 3 2005, 12:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Murder is a sin, and one who commits suicide is commiting murder. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Let me answer that with your own quote.
<!--QuoteBegin-depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Notice that with the exception of the sixth commandment, you can not do them to yourself. This makes sense when you realize that the book of Exodus is one of the books of “The Law.” That is, it primarily defines civil laws—the type of laws that would be tried in a court today. Therefore, applying such laws “against yourself” makes no sense. You would find the same concept in other areas of the Bible—murder applies to killing other people, not yourself. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is one...
<!--QuoteBegin-depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "Murder" applies to killing other people, not yourself. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is number two...
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Therefore, applying such laws “against yourself” makes no sense. You are saying it's ok to make this one exception I guess.
You would find the same concept in other areas of the Bible—murder applies to killing other people, not yourself. Suicide ... is not viewed as murder. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is number three...
So... question still remains do you follow the old religious dogma of political interpetations of the bible, like the evangelical site or do you actualy go by what the bible says? (It says nothing about either side.)
All the rest of the points you attempted to refute, you are in contradiction with yourself. I really would suggest taking some time and reflecting on where you stand on this issue as it is evident you don't even know where you stand.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I changed my oppinion due to what my expansive research of late has showed me. It's called learning, and growing, and like the rest of the viewers (except you) is subject to change according to the views presented.
That being said, suicide is a sin, and one cannot ask for forgiveness in advance. <span style='color:white'>I have many and varied oppinions on this subject, which is why I started this thread, duh.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin-depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That being said, suicide is a sin, and one cannot ask for forgiveness in advance. I have many and varied oppinions on this subject, which is why I started this thread, duh. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That being said, suicide is not defined as a sin, as it is not mentioned as such in the bible. Using simple logic since I have pointed out everything that the bible as stated about suicide one can conclude it is now based upon ones said actions and acceptance of chrisitianity in life, as to whether or not they get to heaven.
In addition, one can ask for forgiveness at the gates of heaven, assuming that since god would be there... he could forgive you. (Unless you hold to the belief that when you die you are automatically judged and sent directly to either heaven/hell.)
So reguardless, if you are basing your opinions(correct spelling btw), on a single evangelical site. Especially one that isn't even quoting the correct biblical passages referring to "god holy temple (your body)" talk about mixed up views.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jul 3 2005, 01:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jul 3 2005, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In addition, one can ask for forgiveness at the gates of heaven, assuming that since god would be there... he could forgive you. (Unless you hold to the belief that when you die you are automatically judged and sent directly to either heaven/hell.)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Problem is, if you've taken a life (be it your own or anybody else's) you're <i>more than likely</i> not going to heaven, therefore eliminating the chance of asking for forgiveness at the gates of heaven. This has already been pointed out several times in this thread.
This is the thing: if you commit suicide you don't <b>KNOW</b> if you're going to heaven or not, so how can you take a chance on asking for forgiveness at the gates of heaven? You can't.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jul 3 2005, 02:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jul 3 2005, 02:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Problem is, if you've taken a life (be it your own or anybody else's) you're <i>more than likely</i> not going to heaven, therefore eliminating the chance of asking for forgiveness at the gates of heaven. This has already been pointed out several times in this thread. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> One for the road, fore I depart elsewhere. As noted above, the Catholics have some form of atonement available after suicide (beyond purgatory, which is not that widely shared).
Have not managed to find any justification that impending or unstoppable sins could not be forgiven before they actually occur. Consider jumping off a cliff over rocks: if a sin is committed at the top, forgiveness can be begged on the way down. The death at the bottom is now inevitable, so would not seem to be more of a sin than someone having thrown you off (remember you were just forgiven for jumping).
Anyone revived through modern medicine was obviously not dead, and therefore not yet judged. Therefore, the interim period before medical death could provide a chance to ask forgiveness. The main hole in that would be a need for mortal consciousness to commune with God: Do you manifest as a conscious soul before or after medical death? (near death experiences being either that manifestation, or merely a physical experience being interpreted as such)
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Problem is, if you've taken a life (be it your own or anybody else's) you're more than likely not going to heaven, therefore eliminating the chance of asking for forgiveness at the gates of heaven. This has already been pointed out several times in this thread.
This is the thing: if you commit suicide you don't KNOW if you're going to heaven or not, so how can you take a chance on asking for forgiveness at the gates of heaven? You can't. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why though? What is the reasoning behind this, you don't even provide any reasoning there. Which is where the problem lies. You can't say "you don't know if you are going to heaven or not" a real christian from what I have seen is so sure of it, they do not worry about it, and it is one more thing off their chest they don't have to deal with. In fact, they are so sure that all of their sins are forgiven, they consider your arguement about "not knowing" a mark of not a real christian.
If I were to theoreatically suddenly say I love jesus and all the needs to go with it, I am saved, (according to various people) which means I could say since I am saved and I do not wish to live here on this earth anymore(since I hate this life), I shall now end it, and be forever happy with god.
<!--QuoteBegin-minsk+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (minsk)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyone revived through modern medicine was obviously not dead, and therefore not yet judged. Therefore, the interim period before medical death could provide a chance to ask forgiveness. The main hole in that would be a need for mortal consciousness to commune with God: Do you manifest as a conscious soul before or after medical death? (near death experiences being either that manifestation, or merely a physical experience being interpreted as such) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Excellent point minsk, I know I subscribe to the near death experience being attributed to over active subconcious which is still quite alive and simply giving your mind a reasonable explanation of what it wants to see.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jul 3 2005, 09:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jul 3 2005, 09:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-depots article+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (depots article)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bible Answer: In response to suicide: The Bible describes two believers who committed suicide: King Saul and Judas. For sure Judas went to hell. Peter said about him in Acts 1:16-18: <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong, there are actually six references to the old testament and in actuality, Judas was forgiven, becaue taking his own life was his remorse. The bible describes said suicide as "acceptable" for his punishment of betrayal. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? You've got to show me that one. I never heard that before.
Oh, and thanks for pointing out those other 6 passages--very informative.
Comments
The parables and stories, however are far more fun to pick on. Feel free to start a new thread about that.
Just my 2 cents.
~ DarkATi
Murder is generally defined as taking of life, with premeditation, unless you are prone to random outbursts of completely incoherent actions I would assume taking your own life is premeditated.
The bible never says its good or bad, remains neutral on the topic, which is why you can not use it to condone, nor disprove either side.
Of course, murder is quite throughly approved of, especially of "enemies" of the church.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this was already covered, and seems to be a relatively accurate analysis,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are probably aware that the Bible strictly forbids murdering anyone. Therefore, some people have stated that people who commit suicide will be judged as murderers (of themselves) and therefore could not reasonably expect to go to heaven. However, the Bible reveals that people can not “murder” themselves. As one example, look at the Ten Commandments in Exodus chapter 20, verses 1-17 (Exodus 20:1-17). The first four Commandments specify our behavior towards God:
1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make for yourself a carved image. . . .
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain. . . .
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
The last six Commandments specify our behavior towards other people:
5. Honor your father and your mother. . . .
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet . . . anything that is your neighbor’s.
Notice that with the exception of the sixth commandment, you can not do them to yourself. This makes sense when you realize that the book of Exodus is one of the books of “The Law.” That is, it primarily defines civil laws—the type of laws that would be tried in a court today. <b>Therefore, applying such laws “against yourself” makes no sense. </b>You would find the same concept in other areas of the Bible—<span style='color:red'>murder applies to killing other people, not yourself</span>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible (Various passages)+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible (Various passages))</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad/Mom
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quite off topic, but true nonetheless.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Notice that with the exception of the sixth commandment, you can not do them to yourself. This makes sense when you realize that the book of Exodus is one of the books of “The Law.” That is, it primarily defines civil laws—the type of laws that would be tried in a court today. Therefore, applying such laws “against yourself” makes no sense. You would find the same concept in other areas of the Bible—murder applies to killing other people, not yourself.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except for the minor fact that if we were to use those laws... everyone on this board would be dead. I'd also like to point out those are not the laws that were given to the people, those laws are found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. If it wasn't for that massive mistake I would forgive him for calling suicide (not murder). :-)
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
What do you mean by 'Blasphemy against the holy spirit'. Like using his name in inappropriate ways? Make jokes at his expense? Defiling virgins in churches
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blasphemy against the holy spirit has nothing to do with the commandments, in fact it is actually used to refer to people who do not believe in god/jesus/etc. Basically it is believing in another religion not christianity. I do hope I explained that well enough.
Thanks for that Cyndane. Never heard it called that before.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible (Various passages)+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible (Various passages))</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad/Mom
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quite off topic, but true nonetheless.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Notice that with the exception of the sixth commandment, you can not do them to yourself. This makes sense when you realize that the book of Exodus is one of the books of “The Law.” That is, it primarily defines civil laws—the type of laws that would be tried in a court today. Therefore, applying such laws “against yourself” makes no sense. You would find the same concept in other areas of the Bible—murder applies to killing other people, not yourself.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except for the minor fact that if we were to use those laws... everyone on this board would be dead. I'd also like to point out those are not the laws that were given to the people, those laws are found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. If it wasn't for that massive mistake I would forgive him for calling suicide (not murder). :-)
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
What do you mean by 'Blasphemy against the holy spirit'. Like using his name in inappropriate ways? Make jokes at his expense? Defiling virgins in churches
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blasphemy against the holy spirit has nothing to do with the commandments, in fact it is actually used to refer to people who do not believe in god/jesus/etc. Basically it is believing in another religion not christianity. I do hope I explained that well enough. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You still missed the point. The last 2 sentences sum it up very well.
<b>Therefore, applying such laws “against yourself” makes no sense. </b>
You are saying it's ok to make this one exception I guess.
<b>You would find the same concept in other areas of the Bible—murder applies to killing other people, not yourself.</b>
Suicide ... is not viewed as murder.
<!--QuoteBegin-article+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (article)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
This makes sense when you realize that the book of Exodus is one of the books of “The Law
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which makes his apologetic arguement that much more false, since he doesn't even recgonize the "holy codified laws" found in Lec, and Deut.
If one is to make such assumptions one needs to have a grasp of what the book is even saying, and he clearly does not.
*Edit*
I do not believe it is wise to kill oneself, but when you are trying to use the bible as a reference, it only praises suicide when it is to kill enemies, and then takes a neutral stance in every other instance.
Which means you can not use it to determine if you will go to heaven or not. Since it is not even remotely suggesting either side of the issue.
I was a bit surprised by this, but then again each religion has it owns perks/querks.
<!--QuoteBegin-article+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (article)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
This makes sense when you realize that the book of Exodus is one of the books of “The Law
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which makes his apologetic arguement that much more false, since he doesn't even recgonize the "holy codified laws" found in Lec, and Deut.
If one is to make such assumptions one needs to have a grasp of what the book is even saying, and he clearly does not.
*Edit*
I do not believe it is wise to kill oneself, but when you are trying to use the bible as a reference, it only praises suicide when it is to kill enemies, and then takes a neutral stance in every other instance.
Which means you can not use it to determine if you will go to heaven or not. Since it is not even remotely suggesting either side of the issue.
I was a bit surprised by this, but then again each religion has it owns perks/querks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"If one is to make such assumptions one needs to have a grasp of what the book is even saying, and he clearly does not." shows us that you have no respect for anyone's oppinion other than your own, and you find it necessary to once again be condescending. The fact that he quoted Exodus and you prefer Lec and Deut only shows different avenues of approach, NOT that you are better than he or more knowledgeable.
Get off your high horse Cyndane, you <b>KNOW</b> where it will get you.
Oh, that's right, because Cyndane's in the thread, and she has an axe to grind with the bible, and for that matter, anyone who doesn't accept what she says outright.
Never mind the fact that it's a moot point, since EVERYONE is a sinner (<i>Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.</i>) Also, never mind the fact that the New Testament teaches salvation by Grace (<i>Romans 8:1 - For there is now <span style='color:white'>no condemnation</span> for those who are in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:8ff - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— <span style='color:white'>not by works, so that no one can boast.</span></i>) Instead of actually considering how someone gets to heaven at all, we'll just sit around and listen to Cyndane tell us how wrong the bible is, because she, in her years of theological study thinks it is. Even though, of course, this study of hers didn't include the fact that the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90840&view=findpost&p=1440407' target='_blank'>New Testament was written in Greek, not Hebrew,</a> and that Christians don't believe that you need to work your way to heaven.
No, instead, let's debate an irrelevant non-issue, and listen to someone who only listens to things that support her view.
[off topic]
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
If one is to make such assumptions one needs to have a grasp of what the book is even saying, and he clearly does not." shows us that you have no respect for anyone's oppinion other than your own, and you find it necessary to once again be condescending. The fact that he quoted Exodus and you prefer Lec and Deut only shows different avenues of approach, NOT that you are better than he or more knowledgeable.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact he called Exodus the civil laws shows little knowledge on his part, especially since they are labeled "The Holy Codified Laws" in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Tad bit ignorant I'd say.
Examples...
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible (NSAB) biblegateway.com+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible (NSAB) biblegateway.com)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Lev 1: The Law of Burnt Offerings
Lev 2: The Law of Grain Offerings
Lev 3: The Law of Peace Offerings
Lev 25: The Law of Redemption
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
@Legion: I have absolutely no axe to grind with the bible, nor christianity in any way. Some of you seem obessed on the fact I do not happen to like <i> any organized </i> religion. Key words are italized for your benefit. In addition as was pointed out in other threads and has no bearing on this one, but you must "do good" works if you wish to stay saved. What is amusing is you ignored those posts as well. You never even addressed those points and thusly it has fallen off the main topic area.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legion+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legion)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Instead of actually considering how someone gets to heaven at all, we'll just sit around and listen to Cyndane tell us how wrong the bible is, because she, in her years of theological study thinks it is.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have actually defended your bible quite a few times, and I would not mind doing so again. Especially when people do not understand what it is saying, as this thread is quite evident to that.
[/off topic]
Now, that we are clear on those points, continue with possible dicussions, although there isn't any really since all but christianity are quite against suicide and state as such. As evidenced by earlier posts.
Since the question begs to be asked.
Why would one religion which 'values' life so highly not state it is wrong to commit suicide in their holy book?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Can a Christian commit suicide and still go to heaven? </b>
Suicide is a personal choice made by the person who commits it. Only that person is ultimately responsible for his or her actions--or are they? Many health care professionals believe that suicide is an irrational act--sort of a "temporary insanity."
If this is truly the case then the haunting question of "will a Christian who commits suicide still go to heaven?"seems to be answered. We are judged on the basis of our ability to make rational decisions. And as we'll discuss later in chapter 18, we don't go to heaven because of our "good deeds" or go to hell because of our "bad actions." Heaven and hell are determined by our decision to accept or reject Christ's offer of pardon.
However, if a person willfully and rationally decides that they, not God, have control of their own life and death, then that would seem to be the ultimate rejection and idolatry--making one's self god.
It's a tough call, but we can be assured that God will treat each person with a careful balance of justice and mercy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.tbm.org/willsuicide.htm' target='_blank'>Another well written article: Will Suicide send someone to hell?</a> Take the time to read it through, he raises some good points.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Today's Question</span>:</b> I'm not a Catholic; but, my mother was raised Catholic so many of her beliefs were handed down to us. I am a Christian with strong beliefs in Jesus and I believe my friend Jesus loves us even when we make mistakes and suicide is wrong but I think it is a mistake even one a Christian can do. My mother says that one who commits suicide goes to Hell.
<i>From my studies, the only thing that would send us to Hell would be to deny Jesus as our Savior</i>. But that even in believing Jesus as our Savior does not mean we will be perfect even in death or even strong in life no matter how hard we want to we strong in life.
I have wondered about this because I know of a Christian who loved Jesus with all her heart and suffered from co-dependency in a dysfunctional home. She suffered for so long and asked Jesus so carry her into heaven to live with Him as she sliced her wrists 3 1/2 inches on one wrist, 3 inches on the other wrist and 4 inches in the upper thigh. She wrote that her Hell was on earth and that she couldn't stand one more day of it. She wrote that she prayed to God, as she performed her murder on herself, that He would forgive her for this sin as He had forgiven her of the others she had done in the past. She stated that the Bible says that He will not allow one to stand more than one can bear and that He is our strength. She stated that she wasn't strong--knowing the Lord is strong but not her and asked to be carried to heaven to live with Him from that moment on.
I've asked a couple of other pastors this question but they will not answer at all. I know even pastors are human and that we can't look into the future and know the answers of heaven and hell for each individual. Do you have any opinions on the matter?
Sincerely,
Mary Bell
<b><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Bible Answer</span>:</b> In response to suicide: The Bible describes two believers who committed suicide: King Saul and Judas. For sure Judas went to hell. Peter said about him in Acts 1:16-18:
and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus--he was one of our number and shared in this ministry." (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.
This Scripture implies that Judas was not saved.
The other story is about King Saul. He was fatally wounded in battle, so to avoid torture he killed himself. From David's words about Saul, it appears that Saul went to heaven. He says, 2 Sam 1:23 "Saul and Jonathan--in life they were loved and gracious, and in death they were not parted..." We know that Jonathan was godly, so if Saul and Jonathan were not parted in death, this would mean Saul is with Jonathan in heaven. I should also note that this passage may simply mean that they died together in battle, not necessarily that they are still with each other in death. At any rate, Saul killed himself only because he was trying to avoid torture, and he was going to die soon anyway.
Mary, the way I explain suicide is this: I tell believers to fear God enough not to take the risk. You could lose your soul by committing suicide, so it's better to simply play it safe and trust God to make you happier. I lean to the idea that most, if not all, cases of suicide lead to damnation. I wouldn't bet on anyone going to heaven who committed suicide. I think the odds are against the person. Besides, suicide is the ultimate statement of unbelief. People commit suicide because they don't have faith that God will help them, and we are saved by faith.
We have received many angry emails over my answer, usually because someone has lost a close friend or relative to suicide. Here is a sample email that represents many irate emails along with my response.
<b><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Reaction</span>:</b> I may be reacting in the flesh and you probably won’t even get this, but I cannot sleep until I write this. Maybe I should write it and then click delete. I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ that I am so very grateful to have and grow. I lost a dear childhood friend today to suicide. He was an awesome athlete in high school. He was an awesome Christian who did not mind showing it to his peers. He was an All-American High School Honor Roll student. His entire family are Christians.
I was disturbed today, that my little sister said he is going to hell. I do not believe this. I do not believe the sure ticket to HELL is to commit suicide. My God is more loving and merciful than that to his people.
I am disturbed at your opinion about suicide, also. I do not believe it has a place on the net for those people searching for answers and comfort at a time like this. It is an opinion not an answer. No where in the Bible does it say suicide is a sure ticket to Hell. I cannot find anything in the Bible that says you go to hell for committing suicide.
I would like to encourage you to take your opinion of something unknown off the Internet. I think it is very damaging to those who have a personal relationship with God and those who I hope come to know him.
Ann
<b><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Tom’s Response:</span></b> I sympathize with your grief, but it would be a mistake for me to tell people that they can make heaven and still commit suicide. God is merciful and if people make heaven despite suicide, wonderful! But there is no scripture to prove you can, so I believe it is best to fear God so much that you would never commit such an act. Peter says, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and sinner" (1 Pet 4:18)
<span style='color:white'>Committing suicide is not a sure ticket to hell, because there is no ticket to hell. It is the other way around, Jesus is the ticket to heaven,</span> however, Jesus said many will say that He is Lord, but He will reply, "Depart from me." Faith is not simply mentally agreeing to the facts of the gospel, but being changed by the gospel. And then one must continue in faith and not give in to unbelief. There is no "once saved, always saved" promise from God. Even if it were true that someone was saved, that does not mean that his or her salvation is "unconditionally secured." One still must persevere and trust God to the end, not end their lives through suicide.
You said that my answer is "very damaging to those who have a personal relationship with God." How could my answer damage someone’s faith?
Maybe what you mean is that someone like yourself who lost a friend through suicide will not be comforted with this article because I refuse to license suicide as a gateway to heaven. For sure my answer won't comfort you.
The article is meant to discourage suicide not to comfort those who lost love ones through suicide. I’m not thinking of you when I write this article, but those who are contemplating this act.
I do understand your grief, but imagine if I told people that they could still make heaven and commit suicide. That message may be what they wanted to hear so they could be given a false sense of security that they will leave their unhappiness here and enter glory in the next life.
A similar message is given to suicide bombers in the Islamic faith. They think that if they kill themselves and others through a Jihad they will enter a wonderful heaven full of virgin wives. This false doctrine gives people courage to go through such a diabolical act. It should almost go without saying, but any Muslim who murders others through suicide will not make heaven, for the Scriptures say, "No murderer has eternal life" (1 John 3:15).
I think there is a delicate correlation between that and Christian suicide. As long as people think they will enter heaven by such an act, perhaps we unwittingly give people courage to go through with it. I refuse to give anyone such false hope.
Despite what I said, my prayers are with you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Therefore, thou art inexcusable O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself: for thou that judgest doeth the same things. But we are sure that the judgement of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgement of God?"
- Romans 2:1-3
Leave judgement up to God. This statement is pointed at the link above, specifically, to all Christians, generally.
~ DarkATi
Oh yes, in addition, all of my bible quotes are taken from biblegateway.com and are the NSAB (New Standard American Bible) they seem to be the most accurate on their translations, even if I do occasionally disagree.
<!--QuoteBegin-depots article+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (depots article)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Bible Answer: In response to suicide: The Bible describes two believers who committed suicide: King Saul and Judas. For sure Judas went to hell. Peter said about him in Acts 1:16-18:
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, there are actually six references to the old testament and in actuality, Judas was forgiven, becaue taking his own life was his remorse. The bible describes said suicide as "acceptable" for his punishment of betrayal.
However, lets take a closer look at all six references in the old testament.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible Numbers 11 12-18+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible Numbers 11 12-18)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
So Moses said to the LORD, "Why have You [c]been so hard on Your servant? And why have I not found favor in Your sight, that You have laid the burden of all this people on me?
12"Was it I who conceived all this people? Was it I who brought them forth, that You should say to me, 'Carry them in your bosom as a (M)nurse carries a nursing infant, to the land which (N)You swore to their fathers'?
13"Where am I to get meat to give to (O)all this people? For they weep before me, saying, 'Give us meat that we may eat!'
14"(P)I alone am not able to carry all this people, because it is too burdensome for me.
15"(Q)So if You are going to deal thus with me, please kill me at once, if I have found favor in Your sight, and do not let me see my wretchedness."
16The LORD therefore said to Moses, "Gather for Me ®seventy men from the elders of Israel, (S)whom you know to be the elders of the people and their officers and bring them to the tent of meeting, and let them take their stand there with you.
17"(T)Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of (U)the Spirit who is upon you, and will put Him upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you will not bear it all alone.
18"Say to the people, '(V)Consecrate yourselves for tomorrow, and you shall eat meat; for you have wept (W)in the ears of the LORD, saying, "Oh that someone would give us meat to eat! For we were well-off in Egypt." Therefore the LORD will give you meat and you shall eat.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quite clearly, and we all know Moses never died by suicide, however it doesn't mean he didn't contemplate it, and as usual there is a neutral stance on the issue. Again, all he did was contemplate it. The fact your first article left out this quite important passage since Moses was a very influencial person is... sad.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible Judges 9 52-57+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible Judges 9 52-57)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
52So Abimelech came to the tower and fought against it, and approached the entrance of the tower to burn it with fire.
53But (A)a certain woman threw an upper millstone on Abimelech's head, crushing his skull.
54Then (B)he called quickly to the young man, his armor bearer, and said to him, "Draw your sword and kill me, so that it will not be said of me, 'A woman slew him.'" So the young man pierced him through, and he died.
55When the men of Israel saw that Abimelech was dead, each departed to his home.
56Thus (Z)God repaid the wickedness of Abimelech, which he had done to his father in killing his seventy brothers.
57Also God returned all the wickedness of the men of Shechem on their heads, and the curse of Jotham the son of Jerubbaal came upon them.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In this passage the king thought he was mortally wounded, a stone could probably do that, but was unlikely. He asked to be killed, so it was suicide even if someone else did it, (Supports that suicide assistant dr, interesting eh?). In addition, he was forgiven his sins, since he completed what god asked him to do as well. His suicide had no bearing upon that at all. The author of the article did mention this passage, good for him.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible Judges 16: 28-31+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible Judges 16: 28-31)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
28(J)Then Samson called to the LORD and said, "O Lord GOD, please remember me and please strengthen me just this time, O God, that I may at once (K)be avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes."
29Samson grasped the two middle pillars on which the house rested, and braced himself against them, the one with his right hand and the other with his left.
30And Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" And he bent with all his might so that the house fell on the lords and all the people who were in it. So the dead whom he killed at his death were more than those whom he killed in his life.
31Then his brothers and all his father's household came down, took him, brought him up and buried him between Zorah and Eshtaol in the tomb of Manoah his father. (L)Thus he had judged Israel twenty years.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In this one is the famous story of samson, in which he kills all of his enemies and asked god to assist him in this suicide. Once again, it is in a positive light, because it was a holy war, albeit only one battle. Again, the other author fails to mention this, which is even more saddening, since this is clearly the best example of suicide in the bible that all children know of, or at least should.
<!--QuoteBegin-2 Samuel 17: 22-24+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2 Samuel 17: 22-24)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
22Then David and all the people who were with him arose and crossed the Jordan; and by dawn not even one remained who had not crossed the Jordan.
23Now when Ahithophel saw that his counsel was not followed, he saddled his donkey and arose and went to his home, to (U)his city, and (V)set his house in order, and (W)strangled himself; thus he died and was buried in the grave of his father.
24Then David came to (X)Mahanaim. And Absalom crossed the Jordan, he and all the men of Israel with him.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another suicide in the old testament, and this one was of sadness and despression, probably the most relevant of today for most suicide victims, which once again it is in a neutral fashion, nothing is said about whether or not Ahithophel goes to heaven or not. Again, your author failed to mention that completely, which doesn't surprise me anymore.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible 1 Kings 16:15-20+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible 1 Kings 16:15-20)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
15In the twenty-seventh year of Asa king of Judah, Zimri reigned seven days at Tirzah. Now the people were camped against (A)Gibbethon, which belonged to the Philistines.
16The people who were camped heard it said, "Zimri has conspired and has also struck down the king." Therefore all Israel made Omri, the commander of the army, king over Israel that day in the camp.
17Then Omri and all Israel with him went up from Gibbethon and besieged Tirzah.
18When Zimri saw that the city was taken, he went into the citadel of the king's house and burned the king's house over him with fire, and (B)died,
19because of his sins which he sinned, doing evil in the sight of the LORD, ©walking in the way of Jeroboam, and in his sin which he did, making Israel sin.
20(D)Now the rest of the acts of Zimri and his conspiracy which he carried out, are they not written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, another suicide and yet still no punishment persay. In fact it is so neutral that once again neither is stated. As usual the author of depots article fails to mention it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible Jonah 4+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible Jonah 4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
1But it greatly displeased Jonah and he became (A)angry.
2He (B)prayed to the LORD and said, "Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I ©fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a (D)gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity.
3"Therefore now, O LORD, please (E)take my life from me, for death is (F)better to me than life."
4The LORD said, "Do you have good reason to be angry?"
5Then Jonah went out from the city and sat east of it. There he made a shelter for himself and (G)sat under it in the shade until he could see what would happen in the city.
6So the LORD God appointed a plant and it grew up over Jonah to be a shade over his head to deliver him from his discomfort. And Jonah was extremely happy about the plant.
7But God appointed a worm when dawn came the next day and it attacked the plant and it (H)withered.
8When the sun came up God appointed a scorching (I)east wind, and the (J)sun beat down on Jonah's head so that he became faint and begged with all his soul to die, saying, "(K)Death is better to me than life."
9Then God said to Jonah, "Do you have good reason to be angry about the plant?" And he said, "I have good reason to be angry, even to death."
10Then the LORD said, "You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight.
11"Should I not (L)have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not (M)know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many (N)animals?"
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, someone is asking to be killed and the bible doesn't say if he is or isn't. So again it is up to the apologetics to put up an arguement for or against. I don't think he was, but that is because god was in a merciful mood at the time, as evidented by this pardon of that city.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rammstien+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rammstien)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
would like to point out that the Bible was(is maybe?) a living document, and as times changed so did the rules sent down by God. All of the rules (kill witches/non-believers) have been superceded by Jesus Christ's message of love. The is one of the fundamental principles of Christianity that you fail to even recognize.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to point out for you the quote that jesus didn't supercede anything...
<!--QuoteBegin-Matthew 5:17-18+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Matthew 5:17-18)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
17"Do not think that I came to abolish the (V)Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18"For truly I say to you, (W)until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I like the way this is explained. Suicide, A Quick Ticket To Hell Unfortunately I cant copy/paste the contents.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DarkAti summed it up quite well so I'll leave that one to him. Since I do not wish to even comment.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives. (<a href='http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm' target='_blank'>para 2283</a>)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<edit>Depot: One usually tries to avoid directly contradicting the Catholic church when generalizing about God's willingness (or not) to talk forgiveness. Flip down to <a href='http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm' target='_blank'>para 1030</a>, or for that matter anything else talking about prayers for the dead or purgatory.</edit>
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
It is ultimately God's decision. We simply don't know for certain, but what a risk it would be.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That works, but there is no risk, as it is never defined as a sin.
<!--QuoteBegin-depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
You can be forgiven for any sin if you ask, and are sincere. If you commit suicide, when will you ask for forgiveness? You can't ask for forgiveness for something you intend on doing, that is seeking his forgiveness in advance.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is nothing to forgive as it is not a sin, nor is it ever defined as one, in fact the bible says it is an acceptable form of remorse, which makes it that much more appealing.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
He is a caring, gentle, and loving God, but he also is very specific on how he expects us to live and act, in order to obtain that precious gift of eternal life.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love the direct contradictions in that one, but that isn't on topic so I shall leave it alone.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
None of us deserve it, but we can do our best to earn it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Typical conservative dogma that has been preached for quite a few years. None of us is worthy yet he supposedly sacrificed his only son... I'm sorry that little bit of complete bullocks does not offer any relevance to this particular topic, especially in this case since there is nothing that has to do with sin, in this case.
Lets break this down a bit, also that white color is annoying.
QUOTE (Depot)
It is ultimately God's decision. We simply don't know for certain, but what a risk it would be.
That works, but there is no risk, as it is never defined as a sin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Murder is a sin, and one who commits suicide is commiting murder.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane Jul 3 2005+ 11:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane Jul 3 2005 @ 11:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
QUOTE (depot)
You can be forgiven for any sin if you ask, and are sincere. If you commit suicide, when will you ask for forgiveness? You can't ask for forgiveness for something you intend on doing, that is seeking his forgiveness in advance.
There is nothing to forgive as it is not a sin, nor is it ever defined as one, in fact the bible says it is an acceptable form of remorse, which makes it that much more appealing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As noted above and in prior posts it is indeed a sin.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane Jul 3 2005+ 11:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane Jul 3 2005 @ 11:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
QUOTE (Depot)
He is a caring, gentle, and loving God, but he also is very specific on how he expects us to live and act, in order to obtain that precious gift of eternal life.
I love the direct contradictions in that one, but that isn't on topic so I shall leave it alone.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed he is a caring, gentle, and loving God, but this doesn't mean he approves of suicide, so of course it's relevant.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane Jul 3 2005+ 11:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane Jul 3 2005 @ 11:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
QUOTE (Depot)
None of us deserve it, but we can do our best to earn it.
Typical conservative dogma that has been preached for quite a few years. None of us is worthy yet he supposedly sacrificed his only son... I'm sorry that little bit of complete bullocks does not offer any relevance to this particular topic, especially in this case since there is nothing that has to do with sin, in this case. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As noted above and in prior posts it is indeed a sin. And it's entirely relevant to this topic. Because you choose not to believe it hardly makes it otherwise.
Murder is a sin, and one who commits suicide is commiting murder.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me answer that with your own quote.
<!--QuoteBegin-depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Notice that with the exception of the sixth commandment, you can not do them to yourself. This makes sense when you realize that the book of Exodus is one of the books of “The Law.” That is, it primarily defines civil laws—the type of laws that would be tried in a court today. Therefore, applying such laws “against yourself” makes no sense. You would find the same concept in other areas of the Bible—murder applies to killing other people, not yourself.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is one...
<!--QuoteBegin-depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
"Murder" applies to killing other people, not yourself.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is number two...
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Therefore, applying such laws “against yourself” makes no sense.
You are saying it's ok to make this one exception I guess.
You would find the same concept in other areas of the Bible—murder applies to killing other people, not yourself.
Suicide ... is not viewed as murder.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is number three...
So... question still remains do you follow the old religious dogma of political interpetations of the bible, like the evangelical site or do you actualy go by what the bible says? (It says nothing about either side.)
All the rest of the points you attempted to refute, you are in contradiction with yourself. I really would suggest taking some time and reflecting on where you stand on this issue as it is evident you don't even know where you stand.
Murder is a sin, and one who commits suicide is commiting murder.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me answer that with your own quote.
<!--QuoteBegin-depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Notice that with the exception of the sixth commandment, you can not do them to yourself. This makes sense when you realize that the book of Exodus is one of the books of “The Law.” That is, it primarily defines civil laws—the type of laws that would be tried in a court today. Therefore, applying such laws “against yourself” makes no sense. You would find the same concept in other areas of the Bible—murder applies to killing other people, not yourself.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is one...
<!--QuoteBegin-depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
"Murder" applies to killing other people, not yourself.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is number two...
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Therefore, applying such laws “against yourself” makes no sense.
You are saying it's ok to make this one exception I guess.
You would find the same concept in other areas of the Bible—murder applies to killing other people, not yourself.
Suicide ... is not viewed as murder.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is number three...
So... question still remains do you follow the old religious dogma of political interpetations of the bible, like the evangelical site or do you actualy go by what the bible says? (It says nothing about either side.)
All the rest of the points you attempted to refute, you are in contradiction with yourself. I really would suggest taking some time and reflecting on where you stand on this issue as it is evident you don't even know where you stand.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I changed my oppinion due to what my expansive research of late has showed me. It's called learning, and growing, and like the rest of the viewers (except you) is subject to change according to the views presented.
That being said, suicide is a sin, and one cannot ask for forgiveness in advance. <span style='color:white'>I have many and varied oppinions on this subject, which is why I started this thread, duh.</span>
That being said, suicide is a sin, and one cannot ask for forgiveness in advance. I have many and varied oppinions on this subject, which is why I started this thread, duh.
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That being said, suicide is not defined as a sin, as it is not mentioned as such in the bible. Using simple logic since I have pointed out everything that the bible as stated about suicide one can conclude it is now based upon ones said actions and acceptance of chrisitianity in life, as to whether or not they get to heaven.
In addition, one can ask for forgiveness at the gates of heaven, assuming that since god would be there... he could forgive you. (Unless you hold to the belief that when you die you are automatically judged and sent directly to either heaven/hell.)
So reguardless, if you are basing your opinions(correct spelling btw), on a single evangelical site. Especially one that isn't even quoting the correct biblical passages referring to "god holy temple (your body)" talk about mixed up views.
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Problem is, if you've taken a life (be it your own or anybody else's) you're <i>more than likely</i> not going to heaven, therefore eliminating the chance of asking for forgiveness at the gates of heaven. This has already been pointed out several times in this thread.
This is the thing: if you commit suicide you don't <b>KNOW</b> if you're going to heaven or not, so how can you take a chance on asking for forgiveness at the gates of heaven? You can't.
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One for the road, fore I depart elsewhere. As noted above, the Catholics have some form of atonement available after suicide (beyond purgatory, which is not that widely shared).
Have not managed to find any justification that impending or unstoppable sins could not be forgiven before they actually occur. Consider jumping off a cliff over rocks: if a sin is committed at the top, forgiveness can be begged on the way down. The death at the bottom is now inevitable, so would not seem to be more of a sin than someone having thrown you off (remember you were just forgiven for jumping).
Anyone revived through modern medicine was obviously not dead, and therefore not yet judged. Therefore, the interim period before medical death could provide a chance to ask forgiveness. The main hole in that would be a need for mortal consciousness to commune with God: Do you manifest as a conscious soul before or after medical death? (near death experiences being either that manifestation, or merely a physical experience being interpreted as such)
Problem is, if you've taken a life (be it your own or anybody else's) you're more than likely not going to heaven, therefore eliminating the chance of asking for forgiveness at the gates of heaven. This has already been pointed out several times in this thread.
This is the thing: if you commit suicide you don't KNOW if you're going to heaven or not, so how can you take a chance on asking for forgiveness at the gates of heaven? You can't.
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Why though? What is the reasoning behind this, you don't even provide any reasoning there. Which is where the problem lies. You can't say "you don't know if you are going to heaven or not" a real christian from what I have seen is so sure of it, they do not worry about it, and it is one more thing off their chest they don't have to deal with. In fact, they are so sure that all of their sins are forgiven, they consider your arguement about "not knowing" a mark of not a real christian.
If I were to theoreatically suddenly say I love jesus and all the needs to go with it, I am saved, (according to various people) which means I could say since I am saved and I do not wish to live here on this earth anymore(since I hate this life), I shall now end it, and be forever happy with god.
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Anyone revived through modern medicine was obviously not dead, and therefore not yet judged. Therefore, the interim period before medical death could provide a chance to ask forgiveness. The main hole in that would be a need for mortal consciousness to commune with God: Do you manifest as a conscious soul before or after medical death? (near death experiences being either that manifestation, or merely a physical experience being interpreted as such)
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Excellent point minsk, I know I subscribe to the near death experience being attributed to over active subconcious which is still quite alive and simply giving your mind a reasonable explanation of what it wants to see.
Bible Answer: In response to suicide: The Bible describes two believers who committed suicide: King Saul and Judas. For sure Judas went to hell. Peter said about him in Acts 1:16-18:
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Wrong, there are actually six references to the old testament and in actuality, Judas was forgiven, becaue taking his own life was his remorse. The bible describes said suicide as "acceptable" for his punishment of betrayal. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? You've got to show me that one. I never heard that before.
Oh, and thanks for pointing out those other 6 passages--very informative.