Dunno so much about that sentrysteve maybe the way i see things is jaded by the fact that i play in a isolated community,i mean in South Africa we have at the most 500 gamers online at night playing various games,i enjoy a server that is full of ppl i know.Am i weird or different because of that?.Is my desire to play games online with ppl i know a exception to the rule...i think not but i might be wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snakestyles+Jun 9 2005, 02:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snakestyles @ Jun 9 2005, 02:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Dunno so much about that sentrysteve maybe the way i see things is jaded by the fact that i play in a isolated community,i mean in South Africa we have at the most 500 gamers online at night playing various games,i enjoy a server that is full of ppl i know.Am i weird or different because of that?.Is my desire to play games online with ppl i know a exception to the rule...i think not but i might be wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ummmmm.. k?
Never said you were weird or different - but the situation you are in is unique and does not at all represent the NS community.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+Jun 9 2005, 08:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ Jun 9 2005, 08:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cheese+Jun 9 2005, 01:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cheese @ Jun 9 2005, 01:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you play on servers with a strong community...with the same people every day...you ll have the teamwork right there! And no yelling commanders and marines who dont follow orders. Its just about how well they know each other and if they want to play together. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And my point is now proven. The majority of players for any game (Let's take CS seeing how its the most popular) just click a server, play there for a map or so, then leave. If, in order for NS Classic to be fun, you have to reg on a server and get to know everyone, does that not say "hey look - here's a problem - our game requires teamwork but yet the mechanics of the game do not promote any"
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes...exactly! If the Players know each other and play together often.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much the same deal. I think that players who don't reg don't find NS Classic fun. This is NS's problem - not half-assed server mods. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You're partially correct. Players that find Classic fun tend to find others of a similar mindset, because more teamplay allows for higher levels of play. This is why players who want more out of the game eventually end up in structured server communities or in clan/competitive play. If people want wanton carnage, they usually do not do this. One does not have to be a server reg or clanner to take advantage of the Classic teamplay aspect, I often played on random pubs in the past and got a quality team game out of it by simply taking charge and having teammates that understood what I wanted them to do. Classic requires an understanding of the game, the mechanics of the game, and human beings. Often players have only parts of this or none at all, and they are acquired knowledge through experience, so it takes time to breed a player capable of playing classic at a level required for real teamplay. Combat lacks this break-in period, which is often why players stick to it and never play classic.
I run 2 ns servers and if any responciable people want to help get them going again. i will consider admin for them and possiable ftp access. I hate 50 lvls and hate a lot of the plugins. but the simple fact is the servers stay dead if they are not running it. there are too many cser's playing ns like cs. 2frag4fun use to be one of the top servers. i would like to have one of my servers vannilla with out a ton of co maps or mvm played. but you need commanders that don't scream at the newer players. iI gave up for now and switched to playing a mmorpg. Because i was sick of hearing all the whining and lack of teamwork. I am not the best commander but i am good at gettiun people that donot know what to do going in the same direction. but i was only 1 person. ok now like i said if any responciable ploayers want a chance to get a ns server going i will set it to 16 players and strip all but non game affecting plugins. go to <a href='http://www.2frag4fun.com' target='_blank'>www.2frag4fun.com</a> register and list where you play maybe some players you play with. kind of like a applacation. i would love to get it back to ns maps but the plain fact is no one sticks around when a ns map comes on.
Because some are speaking bout CO i will post this here...
Of all the co games i have played i only noticed the other day that in CO if you go Onos with charge you can only get 2 chamber upgrades with defualt maxlevel of 10.... never had noticed it before.... my server did run maxlevel 15 with extralevels but now its at level 12.. this was done by a majority vote and it was mainly marine players who suggested that thats the lowest i go... so level 12 and it seems alot fair for both teams....
default level 10 is oki but a bit unfair on Onos's as they can only have 2 chamber upgrades if they take charge...
I prefer NS classic personally and so do my regulars now before 8 outa 10 votes would end in CO or Siege but now 9 out of 10 votes = a classic ns map <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 9 2005, 03:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 9 2005, 03:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Whether or not you like extralevels2 or any other Metamod/AMXX plugin, <b>YOU</b> have total control of what servers you play on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't have the control over the players. Believe me, it's REALLY harder to get a good game with players who have half a clue compared with games where people don't understand what the basic game is. Sure you can have fun with extralevels, but that doesn't mean that should go instead of vanilla. It seems most players I enjoyed playing with left, and I find myself quitting in frustration more often than ever, because people are less and less trying to get into the game, and it doesn't take a full server of idiots to wreck a game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Addy1+Jun 9 2005, 03:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Addy1 @ Jun 9 2005, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyone else notice the strange correlation between the introduction of combat and the slow decline of the clan scene? I do.
Why is this? No competitive clan is going to recruit off of a combat server. Ever. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I left the clan scene because NS Classic was getting old and dry. Other games were more fun - my entire clan ( [C*B] ) agreed with me. None of us left because of Combat. Combat is used as a scapegoat so often that it’s being trite. The NS clan scene, when I left, was on it's way down and we were tried of the "Maybe we'll have JP's before their 4 / 5 min fade rush so we might have a chance."
Surprsingly, 3 are playing classic maps, only 2 are combat (I'm fairly anti-combat).
But guess which 3 servers are empty?
It's catch 22, though. Without combat, this game would have died long ago. I'll admit that almost 50% of the time, when someone asks "how could that robot with the big gun see me through the wall?" I don't bother to tell them; but without these people who want a Sci-Fi Counter-Strike (that is, combat naabs) the only place I'd be able to play on a populated classic NS map would probably be Stacktown/Smurftown. And chances are you'll be playing against a clanned team using fake aliases.
As evil as it sounds, sometimes I love going onto servers that are blatantly there for brainless players ("SoUlReAvEr'S HoUsE oF PaIn" etc...) and just absolutely demolishing everyone there. :evilgrin:
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+Jun 9 2005, 10:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ Jun 9 2005, 10:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Addy1+Jun 9 2005, 03:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Addy1 @ Jun 9 2005, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyone else notice the strange correlation between the introduction of combat and the slow decline of the clan scene? I do.
Why is this? No competitive clan is going to recruit off of a combat server. Ever. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I left the clan scene because NS Classic was getting old and dry. Other games were more fun - my entire clan ( [C*B] ) agreed with me. None of us left because of Combat. Combat is used as a scapegoat so often that it’s being trite. The NS clan scene, when I left, was on it's way down and we were tried of the "Maybe we'll have JP's before their 4 / 5 min fade rush so we might have a chance."
Combat didn't destroy anything - Classic's design flaws did. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Classic's design flaws are used as a scapegoat so often it's trite?
I don't play combat often, and here's why. Every time I do the game ends up some newbie fade that would get lmged in an NS game stomping everyone and going 50-5. Combat takes skill to get a good score, but it doesn't take as much as classic. Combat's skill is more about outlevelling your enemies then about actually being better than them. That's why in combat I can get rushed by 5 crappy skulks and die. Do they care that I took out 3 of them in the process? No, because 5 seconds later they're going to spawn. Do they care that I went 15-2 at the same time as they went 15-20? No, because they have enough for onos and they can just kill everyone with glee for the rest of the game.
Ok, say instead I've been dominating. I'm 35-3 and I just got my jetpack shotty. How many kills does an alien need to shut me down? Hive 3 takes 3 points and gorge takes one. I am going to lose the game to someone who probably has half the kills I do. That's why I dislike combat. Say what about classic (and "teamwork" is a pretty weak argument considering Co is a team game), at least there when a fade owns my team I know it's because he was better at the game.
HEY GUYS! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I stole the internet from a buddy so I came back.
Vanilla NS forever for all time amen.
Server mods = The Mark of The Beast.
Get rid of them, server admins, or else I guess all I can do is continue to keep not playing on your server. D:
Yeah and even NS has it's flaws and gets stale if you leave it out on the counter like bread. Then you come back later wanting to eat something and it's like MMMMMM Good old NS and it's like WHAT OH NO STALE TEETH HURT NOW.
I haven't played NS in a bit mostly because I have no internet at my house. that doesn't help matters much. :|
urinalcakeCan't work a sound cardUnited StatesJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7799Members
I have admin rights to a server hosted by Silent Eraser (scroll up) and I try to keep it as vanilla as possible sometimes by pausing certain plugins. I'm happy to host anyone who wants to visit the server at [sA] Specialists Army - Competitive.
Yes, this 50 levels crap is just getting out of hand. But that is why I just avoid combat altogether. Basically, I feel like I'm just playing Counter-Strike, and I don't want that.
It was much more fun when Natural-Selection was referred to as the teamplay FPS-RTS game. And I try to play as much as that as I can.
I can tell that you're trying to form an agrument against what I was saying, Meep, but I'm not sure you actually said anything revelent other than "since people who have lower K:D ratios than myself kill me I'm upset at combat" which really has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Say what about classic (and "teamwork" is a pretty weak argument considering Co is a team game)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CO is a team game in the sense that there are two teams trying to kill eachother. However, a lot less orgization and teamplay is required becuase the maps are so small and linear that no matter where you go you'll probably be helping out a teammate. Since everything is so small and crammed working as a team isnt that hard - theres one or two ways to go and it's that simple. That is a good example of what I am trying to say - the game promoting teamwork.
There is nothing like this in Classic though (obviously you cannot use the maps as an example - but why not create something new that does promote the team to work together rather than some angry commander who no one wants to listen to)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><Flayra> You have to play the game the way the game is, not the way you want the
"Plug-ins and mods to the game are fun and not to be smited, but the game should play well with no server configuration."
Feel free to dig other quotes of Charlie up, but all said and done, I think I can claim a little more inside knowledge<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically it means that you have to play the game the way it's meant to be played, but raping the game in the most horrible ways with lame plugins of all sorts is completely fine.
Thank you server admins, you and your annoying plugins are far too awesome lol tbh.
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Jun 9 2005, 05:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Jun 9 2005, 05:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...It is my sincere opinion that server mods should not be allowed to change the games balance in any way at all...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Said like a true Communist. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I assume the real reason for this post was to say that the clan community is small because of these combat plugins. Here's my view on things:
The Developers create the game, giving rise the the Public players. The Public players give rise to the Clan players. The Clan players give feedback to the Developers, who make changes that attract more Public players. Later on, Plugins show up, but only take feedback from Public players. However, they rarely have major influence over the game.
In NS, the hierarchy appears like this: <!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> Developer ↑ ↕ Clan Players ← Public Players ↔ Plugins <!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
In essence, the Developers are trying to please each group seperately. I'm not sure how this occured, but that's the only real difference between NS and most other games. The end result has been things like mp_tournamentmode, mp_blockscripts, and, of course, Combat. It's also produced a split in the community and made many people take more hardline positions.
The heavy predominance of plugins is more likely a result of a lack of Clan servers. In most games, a majority of heavy users are Clan players, so most of the servers are Clan servers. In NS, there are, apparently, a large number of heavy users who are Public players, which leads to an increase in Public servers. Increase the proportion of Clan players, and the number of Clan servers will also increase.
If you want to boost Clan players, you need to embrace Combat. Get the Developer to adjust Combat to make it more clan-friendly, and you'll increase your recruitment. Once your clan-base is more representative of all Public players, the Developer may, once again, focus on Clan player feedback. However, since I don't know what caused the rift in the first place, this may not actually fix the problem.
I generally agree with you CWAG, but I'm a bit more moderate. It can be satisfying to get level 5 cybernetics and a level 3 shotgun and bounce around the Hive killing helpless Skulks, but at the same time I like NS. Personally, I don't care how much people mod CO, because, well, it's not NS. The only thing the mods remove is xp budgeting, and who really cares about that in a mode designed solely for total combat?
Keep NS true, and mangle CO all you want.
Hell, they're the ones paying for the server. Unless you own the server don't whine about it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sandstorm Jun 9 2005+ 02:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sandstorm Jun 9 2005 @ 02:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Jun 9 2005, 05:33 AM) ...It is my sincere opinion that server mods should not be allowed to change the games balance in any way at all...
Said like a true Communist.
I assume the real reason for this post was to say that the clan community is small because of these combat plugins. Here's my view on things:
There's a specific hierarchy to all FPS games:
CODE
Developer → Public Players ↔ Plugins ↑ ↓ Clan Players
The Developers create the game, giving rise the the Public players. The Public players give rise to the Clan players. The Clan players give feedback to the Developers, who make changes that attract more Public players. Later on, Plugins show up, but only take feedback from Public players. However, they rarely have major influence over the game.
In NS, the hierarchy appears like this:
CODE
Developer ↑ ↕ Clan Players ← Public Players ↔ Plugins
In essence, the Developers are trying to please each group seperately. I'm not sure how this occured, but that's the only real difference between NS and most other games. The end result has been things like mp_tournamentmode, mp_blockscripts, and, of course, Combat. It's also produced a split in the community and made many people take more hardline positions.
The heavy predominance of plugins is more likely a result of a lack of Clan servers. In most games, a majority of heavy users are Clan players, so most of the servers are Clan servers. In NS, there are, apparently, a large number of heavy users who are Public players, which leads to an increase in Public servers. Increase the proportion of Clan players, and the number of Clan servers will also increase.
If you want to boost Clan players, you need to embrace Combat. Get the Developer to adjust Combat to make it more clan-friendly, and you'll increase your recruitment. Once your clan-base is more representative of all Public players, the Developer may, once again, focus on Clan player feedback. However, since I don't know what caused the rift in the first place, this may not actually fix the problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT! Well stated Sandstorm. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Addy1+Jun 9 2005, 07:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Addy1 @ Jun 9 2005, 07:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And SentrySteve: you totally missed the point I was making. The ns clan scene is not dying because clans are leaving it; it's dying because there are no players/clans to replace the ones that leave. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> k...
I find it interesting how people want to limit others choices on how they should play the game, even if it doesn't affect them directly.
I'm expecting book burnings and abortion clinic bombings next.
If you don't like how a server is run, then don't play on it. It's that simple. The reason so many admins run these servers with plugins that change the game is because the majority of people playing on that server like it.
Run your own server and play on it with whataver settings you want. Invite your friends! Have FUN! But don't tell other admins how they should run their servers. CO is easy to get into and everything doesn't hinge on having a great commander. It's less centralized on a single player, which means that it tends to be more balanced.
I like the way that a plugin can be downloaded to balance the game more evenly if something throws it out of whack. This sometimes has the tendency to bloat a server, but hey, it's totally up to the admin.
<!--QuoteBegin-Addy1+Jun 9 2005, 04:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Addy1 @ Jun 9 2005, 04:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Newsflash: There are no combat leagues, thank God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Incorrect. <a href='http://www.ugleague.org/module.php?id=1&div=nsco' target='_blank'>The Ultimate Gamers League</a> has been resurrected and will soon be starting. I have been successful in getting a Metamod plugin developed that will balance the game competitively. View the clicky for details. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Alcapwn"War is the science of destruction" - John AbbotJoin Date: 2003-06-21Member: 17590Members
To me it seems like instead of the "step stool" the devs wanted CO to be, people just never move on. Which is a shame, because Co pretty much takes all of the RTS out of the RTS/FPS that NS is supposed to be.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=54397&hl=worried' target='_blank'>By the way, i used my crystal ball way back in november of 03 to point this exact problem out...</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 9 2005, 08:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 9 2005, 08:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Whether or not you like extralevels2 or any other Metamod/AMXX plugin, <b>YOU</b> have total control of what servers you play on. If you haven't heard of HLSW, download it, now, and use it (IT'S FREE!).
For those unfamiliar with HLSW, it allows you to monitor (and admin if you have rcon access) servers. You can see every single plugin on the server, and also the cvar settings.
Get HLSW <a href='http://www.hlsw.net/?language=English' target='_blank'>here</a>, use it, and quitcherdamnbitchin. No one is forcing you to play on a modded server, and all your crying in the world won't make them go away. No, they're just not going to disappear.
Btw, other than MvM and custom maps, my server is Plain Vanilla. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> With filters set the way the majority (in this topic) still would not get that many results..
<!--QuoteBegin-Sandstorm+Jun 9 2005, 01:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sandstorm @ Jun 9 2005, 01:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I assume the real reason for this post was to say that the clan community is small because of these combat plugins. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> NO. THE REAL REASON FOR THE THREAD IS THAT COMBAT PLUGINS ARE NOT FUN, AND THEY ARE NOT A PART OF NATURAL SELECTION.
I agree with sentrysteve 100% i've been playing NS for about 4 and a half months now. When i first started i played classic for about 2 weeks because i didn't know what CO was and i remember playing classic for a brief period about a year before. The reason i came back was to quench an old thirst. So i came back and was lost for about 2 weeks. To much **** i didn't know simply because i don't play. I also had trouble getting my aim up(had superb aim in BFV) because these are aliens and their fast. Didn't take long for me to stray to CO because classic seemed dumb because i sucked and got yelled at. I played CO non stop for about 3 months, eventually i started to top some pubs(no hard feat i know) and i figured out the leap/skulk and fade. Anywas CO got boring so i went back to classic the whole reason i started playing NS again. Didn't take long for me to adapt, i watched better players than me, alot, i try to surround myself with better players so i can learn from them etc. 4 months or so later and i can playing classic with NO problems i have no trouble keeping up with other more skilled people than me. 4 months later though =/ like steve said there should be some way to accelrate the way people learn classic it would have been easier for people like me. As it stands i think classic is for very serious gamers it takes patience and a will to learn because to this day i still learn. Maybe this game will always have a small base of serious classic gamers because of the effort needed for the learning of the game, getting the **** kicked outa ya etc. I think an extensive training level is WAY OVERDUE for this game....way overdue.... (that player made one i got in forums is VERY well done it should have been integrated into the game long ago....)
Also i wanted to add i agree about /menu and 50 levels, i barely have the patience for regular co these days. I swear if i see one more uber upgrade redem onos i'll vomit.
urinalcakeCan't work a sound cardUnited StatesJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7799Members
edited June 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Jun 9 2005, 03:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Jun 9 2005, 03:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sandstorm+Jun 9 2005, 01:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sandstorm @ Jun 9 2005, 01:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I assume the real reason for this post was to say that the clan community is small because of these combat plugins. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> NO. THE REAL REASON FOR THE THREAD IS THAT COMBAT PLUGINS ARE NOT FUN, AND THEY ARE NOT A PART OF NATURAL SELECTION. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Very true. I've been playing with CWAG just about every night, and every night we try to look for a server that won't have bots, or plugins that allow buildings in combat or plugins that allow flying heavies or plugins with 300 levels or plugins that ruin the game altogether.
This wasn't a post to say anything bad about the clanning community. You can figure that out yourself, since CWAG has recently made his comeback into the competitive community.
The point is that all of these plugins might have at first seemed really cool because people were modding NS and we had a time of prosperity because everyone liked the new stuff.. But the fact is, its killing Natural-Selection, slowly.
The people who once liked the game are leaving because they feel like they're getting the entire game in a few rounds and the people who are staying are just kids who want to play around and don’t have the money to get better games or time to do other things. It just gets worse and worse and worse.
This is not the game Flayra or Nem0 or WHOEVER intended. They intended combat to be fun and a very competitive style. Most likely, they intended it to be NS without the building where you could say "Everyone, rush this side!" or "Weld the chair and lets get a scanner sweep!"
It’s not too hard to remember, because it was not too long ago, when combat first came out. You would hear people on the marine team going "Can someone get scanner sweep, someone get a welder, etc, etc." or the Aliens were like "We need a gorge and we need a lerk to protect the hive!"
Do you hear that anymore? No, it’s just about KILL KILL KILL, no objectives. Not to say that might of been how it was back then too, but now it's all about getting to the 26th level.
It’s outrageous. I have to stave away from CO/NS servers because they run CO 90% of the time and the other 10% it's empty. Our only chance is ourselves. Notice those few servers that are mostly NS, LunixMonster, NSA Veterans, FR31NS, [On|E], [FAT], [Bean.net].
That is 5 servers, averaging about 16 players per each. They are full most of the time, do we really only have somewhere in the range of 80-200 players? REAL players? The competitive ones, or the ones dedicated to NS or the ones that are community players?
If this acclaimed 'Nexus' doesn't fix this problem, I don’t see how a NS:S would, we'd just see more advanced annoying plugins for that game.
There was a time that Natural-Selection had a story and an atmosphere; it had a feel to it. You would skip homework or miss your favorite TV show because you wanted to log on, WON or Steam, whatever it would be. You would immerse yourself into a new world, a scary world that had a strong story, that made you think "what if" at night. It excelled our imagination.
The only memory of that lives on in the older players, who are slowly fading away. When they're gone, NS is just merely a game played for boredom.
<!--QuoteBegin-IlluzionZ+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (IlluzionZ)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think an extensive training level is WAY OVERDUE for this game....way overdue.... (that player made one i got in forums is VERY well done it should have been integrated into the game long ago....) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To stave off the subject for a minute. Just imagine if NS took a different turn, instead of plugin-driven Combat, we saw NS with more of an angle. A training level such as the one mentioned, more support for ns_ and the competitive community? The training level was denied because it was "not graphically what the developers are looking for". There could be more reasons, but if there were not, the idea of a training level was probably something a developer came up with before the user-made one was created. That dev probably wanted to do this, and that and this, and didn't want to see a user-made attempt.
IMHO, it should have been implemented.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 9 2005, 08:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 9 2005, 08:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Whether or not you like extralevels2 or any other Metamod/AMXX plugin, <b>YOU</b> have total control of what servers you play on. If you haven't heard of HLSW, download it, now, and use it (IT'S FREE!). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depot, I highly respect all your opinions and support most of what you say. But I'm going to have to disagree with you here. As long as heavy Combat has any relation to Classic, we'll see more and more people leave the Classic community altogether. I mentioned this earlier in my post, that these plugins are just a virus, scaring off all the good players. We're seeing more and more people in Combat getting what they want out of the game, and leaving, because they feel like they've played the entire game. NS is dying too early.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It’s not too hard to remember, because it was not too long ago, when combat first came out. You would hear people on the marine team going "Can someone get scanner sweep, someone get a welder, etc, etc." or the Aliens were like "We need a gorge and we need a lerk to protect the hive!"
Do you hear that anymore? No, it’s just about KILL KILL KILL, no objectives. Not to say that might of been how it was back then too, but now it's all about getting to the 26th level.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This guy knows what he's talking about.
I've played "quasi-competitive combat" games with a clan and community (to remain nameless for fear of server wars in this thread), and it was just as fun as NS Classic itself. There were definite on-the-fly strategies being cooked up, concerning who would take what upgrades, where we would rush, who we would concentrate fire on, how long would we wait for people spawning in, heavies in front or JPs in front, to charge the vent or the hallway, and everything else you can imagine. We were playing the same teamplay modification, just under different rules.
What SentrySteve is saying about NS Classic has some truth to it. The issue is that, in both Combat and Classic, the out-front game mechanics don't promote teamwork obviously enough, even while the fundamental game design does. This means that organized groups or even unorganized groups who simply keep in touch and coordinate plans will simply bulldoze non-communicating teams who just don't get it, in both combat and classic. Then, the random pubbers who just don't get it will never get it, because either they don't care (at which point they play extreme plugin-fests because they tend to exaggerate the advantages of aiming and reflex skills) or they don't understand that the game is about teamwork, where they give up on it.
Summary: This is where SentrySteve's point and CWAG's point mesh. The loner-type pubbers can't win or have any fun while playing Classic because they don't work as a team, and occasionally they have issues playing regular Combat for the same reasons, so they play plugin-modified servers that empasize "skill" over teamwork simply because of the way they work. They won't catch on to teamwork because it isn't obvious enough that it is the way to win.
In conclusion, NS as a game is not truly at fault (if played as intended, it's really fun), but it needs to be changed anyway in order to help people get a clue as to the real way to play it. I don't know how to fix this, as it could require overhaul of balance and playstyle or just simple interface changes to nudge players in the right direction.
Yeah I've had fun with 50 levels too, ok its replayability is a bit low, but its just nice to try something new. I think everybody has at some point dreamt of being an onos with all 9 upgrades.
Comments
ummmmm.. k?
Never said you were weird or different - but the situation you are in is unique and does not at all represent the NS community.
And my point is now proven. The majority of players for any game (Let's take CS seeing how its the most popular) just click a server, play there for a map or so, then leave. If, in order for NS Classic to be fun, you have to reg on a server and get to know everyone, does that not say "hey look - here's a problem - our game requires teamwork but yet the mechanics of the game do not promote any"
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes...exactly! If the Players know each other and play together often.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much the same deal. I think that players who don't reg don't find NS Classic fun. This is NS's problem - not half-assed server mods. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're partially correct. Players that find Classic fun tend to find others of a similar mindset, because more teamplay allows for higher levels of play. This is why players who want more out of the game eventually end up in structured server communities or in clan/competitive play. If people want wanton carnage, they usually do not do this. One does not have to be a server reg or clanner to take advantage of the Classic teamplay aspect, I often played on random pubs in the past and got a quality team game out of it by simply taking charge and having teammates that understood what I wanted them to do. Classic requires an understanding of the game, the mechanics of the game, and human beings. Often players have only parts of this or none at all, and they are acquired knowledge through experience, so it takes time to breed a player capable of playing classic at a level required for real teamplay. Combat lacks this break-in period, which is often why players stick to it and never play classic.
Of all the co games i have played i only noticed the other day that in CO if you go Onos with charge you can only get 2 chamber upgrades with defualt maxlevel of 10.... never had noticed it before.... my server did run maxlevel 15 with extralevels but now its at level 12.. this was done by a majority vote and it was mainly marine players who suggested that thats the lowest i go... so level 12 and it seems alot fair for both teams....
default level 10 is oki but a bit unfair on Onos's as they can only have 2 chamber upgrades if they take charge...
I prefer NS classic personally and so do my regulars now before 8 outa 10 votes would end in CO or Siege but now 9 out of 10 votes = a classic ns map <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You don't have the control over the players. Believe me, it's REALLY harder to get a good game with players who have half a clue compared with games where people don't understand what the basic game is.
Sure you can have fun with extralevels, but that doesn't mean that should go instead of vanilla. It seems most players I enjoyed playing with left, and I find myself quitting in frustration more often than ever, because people are less and less trying to get into the game, and it doesn't take a full server of idiots to wreck a game.
Why is this? No competitive clan is going to recruit off of a combat server. Ever. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I left the clan scene because NS Classic was getting old and dry. Other games were more fun - my entire clan ( [C*B] ) agreed with me. None of us left because of Combat. Combat is used as a scapegoat so often that it’s being trite. The NS clan scene, when I left, was on it's way down and we were tried of the "Maybe we'll have JP's before their 4 / 5 min fade rush so we might have a chance."
Combat didn't destroy anything - Classic's design flaws did.
5 servers.
Surprsingly, 3 are playing classic maps, only 2 are combat (I'm fairly anti-combat).
But guess which 3 servers are empty?
It's catch 22, though. Without combat, this game would have died long ago. I'll admit that almost 50% of the time, when someone asks "how could that robot with the big gun see me through the wall?" I don't bother to tell them; but without these people who want a Sci-Fi Counter-Strike (that is, combat naabs) the only place I'd be able to play on a populated classic NS map would probably be Stacktown/Smurftown. And chances are you'll be playing against a clanned team using fake aliases.
As evil as it sounds, sometimes I love going onto servers that are blatantly there for brainless players ("SoUlReAvEr'S HoUsE oF PaIn" etc...) and just absolutely demolishing everyone there. :evilgrin:
Why is this? No competitive clan is going to recruit off of a combat server. Ever. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I left the clan scene because NS Classic was getting old and dry. Other games were more fun - my entire clan ( [C*B] ) agreed with me. None of us left because of Combat. Combat is used as a scapegoat so often that it’s being trite. The NS clan scene, when I left, was on it's way down and we were tried of the "Maybe we'll have JP's before their 4 / 5 min fade rush so we might have a chance."
Combat didn't destroy anything - Classic's design flaws did. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Classic's design flaws are used as a scapegoat so often it's trite?
I don't play combat often, and here's why. Every time I do the game ends up some newbie fade that would get lmged in an NS game stomping everyone and going 50-5. Combat takes skill to get a good score, but it doesn't take as much as classic. Combat's skill is more about outlevelling your enemies then about actually being better than them. That's why in combat I can get rushed by 5 crappy skulks and die. Do they care that I took out 3 of them in the process? No, because 5 seconds later they're going to spawn. Do they care that I went 15-2 at the same time as they went 15-20? No, because they have enough for onos and they can just kill everyone with glee for the rest of the game.
Ok, say instead I've been dominating. I'm 35-3 and I just got my jetpack shotty. How many kills does an alien need to shut me down? Hive 3 takes 3 points and gorge takes one. I am going to lose the game to someone who probably has half the kills I do. That's why I dislike combat. Say what about classic (and "teamwork" is a pretty weak argument considering Co is a team game), at least there when a fade owns my team I know it's because he was better at the game.
Vanilla NS forever for all time amen.
Server mods = The Mark of The Beast.
Get rid of them, server admins, or else I guess all I can do is continue to keep not playing on your server. D:
Yeah and even NS has it's flaws and gets stale if you leave it out on the counter like bread. Then you come back later wanting to eat something and it's like MMMMMM Good old NS and it's like WHAT OH NO STALE TEETH HURT NOW.
I haven't played NS in a bit mostly because I have no internet at my house. that doesn't help matters much.
:|
Late!
Yes, this 50 levels crap is just getting out of hand. But that is why I just avoid combat altogether. Basically, I feel like I'm just playing Counter-Strike, and I don't want that.
It was much more fun when Natural-Selection was referred to as the teamplay FPS-RTS game. And I try to play as much as that as I can.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Say what about classic (and "teamwork" is a pretty weak argument considering Co is a team game)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CO is a team game in the sense that there are two teams trying to kill eachother. However, a lot less orgization and teamplay is required becuase the maps are so small and linear that no matter where you go you'll probably be helping out a teammate. Since everything is so small and crammed working as a team isnt that hard - theres one or two ways to go and it's that simple. That is a good example of what I am trying to say - the game promoting teamwork.
There is nothing like this in Classic though (obviously you cannot use the maps as an example - but why not create something new that does promote the team to work together rather than some angry commander who no one wants to listen to)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><Flayra> You have to play the game the way the game is, not the way you want the
"Plug-ins and mods to the game are fun and not to be smited, but the game should play well with no server configuration."
Feel free to dig other quotes of Charlie up, but all said and done, I think I can claim a little more inside knowledge<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically it means that you have to play the game the way it's meant to be played, but raping the game in the most horrible ways with lame plugins of all sorts is completely fine.
Thank you server admins, you and your annoying plugins are far too awesome lol tbh.
Said like a true Communist. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I assume the real reason for this post was to say that the clan community is small because of these combat plugins. Here's my view on things:
There's a specific hierarchy to all FPS games:
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
Developer → Public Players ↔ Plugins
↑ ↓
Clan Players
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
The Developers create the game, giving rise the the Public players. The Public players give rise to the Clan players. The Clan players give feedback to the Developers, who make changes that attract more Public players. Later on, Plugins show up, but only take feedback from Public players. However, they rarely have major influence over the game.
In NS, the hierarchy appears like this:
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
Developer
↑ ↕
Clan Players ← Public Players ↔ Plugins
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
In essence, the Developers are trying to please each group seperately. I'm not sure how this occured, but that's the only real difference between NS and most other games. The end result has been things like mp_tournamentmode, mp_blockscripts, and, of course, Combat. It's also produced a split in the community and made many people take more hardline positions.
The heavy predominance of plugins is more likely a result of a lack of Clan servers. In most games, a majority of heavy users are Clan players, so most of the servers are Clan servers. In NS, there are, apparently, a large number of heavy users who are Public players, which leads to an increase in Public servers. Increase the proportion of Clan players, and the number of Clan servers will also increase.
If you want to boost Clan players, you need to embrace Combat. Get the Developer to adjust Combat to make it more clan-friendly, and you'll increase your recruitment. Once your clan-base is more representative of all Public players, the Developer may, once again, focus on Clan player feedback. However, since I don't know what caused the rift in the first place, this may not actually fix the problem.
Keep NS true, and mangle CO all you want.
Hell, they're the ones paying for the server. Unless you own the server don't whine about it.
QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Jun 9 2005, 05:33 AM)
...It is my sincere opinion that server mods should not be allowed to change the games balance in any way at all...
Said like a true Communist.
I assume the real reason for this post was to say that the clan community is small because of these combat plugins. Here's my view on things:
There's a specific hierarchy to all FPS games:
CODE
Developer → Public Players ↔ Plugins
↑ ↓
Clan Players
The Developers create the game, giving rise the the Public players. The Public players give rise to the Clan players. The Clan players give feedback to the Developers, who make changes that attract more Public players. Later on, Plugins show up, but only take feedback from Public players. However, they rarely have major influence over the game.
In NS, the hierarchy appears like this:
CODE
Developer
↑ ↕
Clan Players ← Public Players ↔ Plugins
In essence, the Developers are trying to please each group seperately. I'm not sure how this occured, but that's the only real difference between NS and most other games. The end result has been things like mp_tournamentmode, mp_blockscripts, and, of course, Combat. It's also produced a split in the community and made many people take more hardline positions.
The heavy predominance of plugins is more likely a result of a lack of Clan servers. In most games, a majority of heavy users are Clan players, so most of the servers are Clan servers. In NS, there are, apparently, a large number of heavy users who are Public players, which leads to an increase in Public servers. Increase the proportion of Clan players, and the number of Clan servers will also increase.
If you want to boost Clan players, you need to embrace Combat. Get the Developer to adjust Combat to make it more clan-friendly, and you'll increase your recruitment. Once your clan-base is more representative of all Public players, the Developer may, once again, focus on Clan player feedback. However, since I don't know what caused the rift in the first place, this may not actually fix the problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT! Well stated Sandstorm. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
k...
and why do you think that is?
(cue "its all combats fault!" agrument now)
I'm expecting book burnings and abortion clinic bombings next.
If you don't like how a server is run, then don't play on it. It's that simple. The reason so many admins run these servers with plugins that change the game is because the majority of people playing on that server like it.
Run your own server and play on it with whataver settings you want. Invite your friends! Have FUN! But don't tell other admins how they should run their servers. CO is easy to get into and everything doesn't hinge on having a great commander. It's less centralized on a single player, which means that it tends to be more balanced.
I like the way that a plugin can be downloaded to balance the game more evenly if something throws it out of whack. This sometimes has the tendency to bloat a server, but hey, it's totally up to the admin.
Incorrect. <a href='http://www.ugleague.org/module.php?id=1&div=nsco' target='_blank'>The Ultimate Gamers League</a> has been resurrected and will soon be starting. I have been successful in getting a Metamod plugin developed that will balance the game competitively. View the clicky for details. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=54397&hl=worried' target='_blank'>By the way, i used my crystal ball way back in november of 03 to point this exact problem out...</a>
The game is still one of the worst formats possible for a league. This is why there are no combat leagues.
People will go "Man I love combat lets play league" and quickly get sick of the endless camping that people do when they actually want to win.
For those unfamiliar with HLSW, it allows you to monitor (and admin if you have rcon access) servers. You can see every single plugin on the server, and also the cvar settings.
Get HLSW <a href='http://www.hlsw.net/?language=English' target='_blank'>here</a>, use it, and quitcherdamnbitchin. No one is forcing you to play on a modded server, and all your crying in the world won't make them go away. No, they're just not going to disappear.
Btw, other than MvM and custom maps, my server is Plain Vanilla. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
With filters set the way the majority (in this topic) still would not get that many results..
All I can say about pubbing is www.nsarmslab.com
I assume the real reason for this post was to say that the clan community is small because of these combat plugins. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO. THE REAL REASON FOR THE THREAD IS THAT COMBAT PLUGINS ARE NOT FUN, AND THEY ARE NOT A PART OF NATURAL SELECTION.
I think an extensive training level is WAY OVERDUE for this game....way overdue....
(that player made one i got in forums is VERY well done it should have been integrated into the game long ago....)
Also i wanted to add i agree about /menu and 50 levels, i barely have the patience for regular co these days. I swear if i see one more uber upgrade redem onos i'll vomit.
I assume the real reason for this post was to say that the clan community is small because of these combat plugins. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO. THE REAL REASON FOR THE THREAD IS THAT COMBAT PLUGINS ARE NOT FUN, AND THEY ARE NOT A PART OF NATURAL SELECTION. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very true.
I've been playing with CWAG just about every night, and every night we try to look for a server that won't have bots, or plugins that allow buildings in combat or plugins that allow flying heavies or plugins with 300 levels or plugins that ruin the game altogether.
This wasn't a post to say anything bad about the clanning community. You can figure that out yourself, since CWAG has recently made his comeback into the competitive community.
The point is that all of these plugins might have at first seemed really cool because people were modding NS and we had a time of prosperity because everyone liked the new stuff.. But the fact is, its killing Natural-Selection, slowly.
The people who once liked the game are leaving because they feel like they're getting the entire game in a few rounds and the people who are staying are just kids who want to play around and don’t have the money to get better games or time to do other things. It just gets worse and worse and worse.
This is not the game Flayra or Nem0 or WHOEVER intended. They intended combat to be fun and a very competitive style. Most likely, they intended it to be NS without the building where you could say "Everyone, rush this side!" or "Weld the chair and lets get a scanner sweep!"
It’s not too hard to remember, because it was not too long ago, when combat first came out. You would hear people on the marine team going "Can someone get scanner sweep, someone get a welder, etc, etc." or the Aliens were like "We need a gorge and we need a lerk to protect the hive!"
Do you hear that anymore? No, it’s just about KILL KILL KILL, no objectives. Not to say that might of been how it was back then too, but now it's all about getting to the 26th level.
It’s outrageous. I have to stave away from CO/NS servers because they run CO 90% of the time and the other 10% it's empty.
Our only chance is ourselves. Notice those few servers that are mostly NS, LunixMonster, NSA Veterans, FR31NS, [On|E], [FAT], [Bean.net].
That is 5 servers, averaging about 16 players per each. They are full most of the time, do we really only have somewhere in the range of 80-200 players? REAL players? The competitive ones, or the ones dedicated to NS or the ones that are community players?
If this acclaimed 'Nexus' doesn't fix this problem, I don’t see how a NS:S would, we'd just see more advanced annoying plugins for that game.
There was a time that Natural-Selection had a story and an atmosphere; it had a feel to it. You would skip homework or miss your favorite TV show because you wanted to log on, WON or Steam, whatever it would be. You would immerse yourself into a new world, a scary world that had a strong story, that made you think "what if" at night. It excelled our imagination.
The only memory of that lives on in the older players, who are slowly fading away. When they're gone, NS is just merely a game played for boredom.
<!--QuoteBegin-IlluzionZ+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (IlluzionZ)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think an extensive training level is WAY OVERDUE for this game....way overdue....
(that player made one i got in forums is VERY well done it should have been integrated into the game long ago....)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To stave off the subject for a minute. Just imagine if NS took a different turn, instead of plugin-driven Combat, we saw NS with more of an angle. A training level such as the one mentioned, more support for ns_ and the competitive community? The training level was denied because it was "not graphically what the developers are looking for". There could be more reasons, but if there were not, the idea of a training level was probably something a developer came up with before the user-made one was created. That dev probably wanted to do this, and that and this, and didn't want to see a user-made attempt.
IMHO, it should have been implemented.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 9 2005, 08:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 9 2005, 08:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Whether or not you like extralevels2 or any other Metamod/AMXX plugin, <b>YOU</b> have total control of what servers you play on. If you haven't heard of HLSW, download it, now, and use it (IT'S FREE!).
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depot, I highly respect all your opinions and support most of what you say. But I'm going to have to disagree with you here. As long as heavy Combat has any relation to Classic, we'll see more and more people leave the Classic community altogether. I mentioned this earlier in my post, that these plugins are just a virus, scaring off all the good players. We're seeing more and more people in Combat getting what they want out of the game, and leaving, because they feel like they've played the entire game. NS is dying too early.
Do you hear that anymore? No, it’s just about KILL KILL KILL, no objectives. Not to say that might of been how it was back then too, but now it's all about getting to the 26th level.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This guy knows what he's talking about.
I've played "quasi-competitive combat" games with a clan and community (to remain nameless for fear of server wars in this thread), and it was just as fun as NS Classic itself. There were definite on-the-fly strategies being cooked up, concerning who would take what upgrades, where we would rush, who we would concentrate fire on, how long would we wait for people spawning in, heavies in front or JPs in front, to charge the vent or the hallway, and everything else you can imagine. We were playing the same teamplay modification, just under different rules.
What SentrySteve is saying about NS Classic has some truth to it. The issue is that, in both Combat and Classic, the out-front game mechanics don't promote teamwork obviously enough, even while the fundamental game design does. This means that organized groups or even unorganized groups who simply keep in touch and coordinate plans will simply bulldoze non-communicating teams who just don't get it, in both combat and classic. Then, the random pubbers who just don't get it will never get it, because either they don't care (at which point they play extreme plugin-fests because they tend to exaggerate the advantages of aiming and reflex skills) or they don't understand that the game is about teamwork, where they give up on it.
Summary: This is where SentrySteve's point and CWAG's point mesh. The loner-type pubbers can't win or have any fun while playing Classic because they don't work as a team, and occasionally they have issues playing regular Combat for the same reasons, so they play plugin-modified servers that empasize "skill" over teamwork simply because of the way they work. They won't catch on to teamwork because it isn't obvious enough that it is the way to win.
In conclusion, NS as a game is not truly at fault (if played as intended, it's really fun), but it needs to be changed anyway in order to help people get a clue as to the real way to play it. I don't know how to fix this, as it could require overhaul of balance and playstyle or just simple interface changes to nudge players in the right direction.
People like it.
When I get bored of regular NS I go to the aero servers and play their insane 50 level /menu game. It can be fun. I have a lot of fun with it.