Information Capacity Of Records?

MantridMantrid Lockpick Join Date: 2003-12-07 Member: 24109Members
Recently, there was a topic about how much data a tape cassette could hold. Now, I'm wondering how much information you could store on a record? You know, those old, big, flat, black things that the humans of yesteryear used to listen to music?

If you used some sort of modem set up, attached to a needle to etch into the record, how much data could it store?
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Comments

  • DaJMastaDaJMasta Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34750Members, Constellation
    reee cord?

    lol not much. They say a tape could store 60 or 70 mins of low-fi songs. Maybe both sides of a record could do that, just with less detail.

    Seems 12 inch records could hold 45 mins worth of music on both sides.

    <a href='http://www.experimentaljetset.nl/lostformats/01.html' target='_blank'>Some info</a>
  • MantridMantrid Lockpick Join Date: 2003-12-07 Member: 24109Members
    I'm talking digital information. Bytes, and larger derivatives of said bytes.
  • GwahirGwahir Join Date: 2002-04-24 Member: 513Members, Constellation
    which is an ineresting question since records held analog data.
  • MantridMantrid Lockpick Join Date: 2003-12-07 Member: 24109Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Gwahir+Jun 1 2005, 07:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gwahir @ Jun 1 2005, 07:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> which is an ineresting question since records held analog data. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Of course. But modems transmit via sound, and sound can be recorded in analog. Therefore, there should be a way to make some sort of estimate regarding conversion.
  • LegionnairedLegionnaired Join Date: 2002-04-30 Member: 552Members, Constellation
    Records = 23 minutes/side x 64kbps (low quality music) = 1472 kb, or about 1.4375 megs...

    Is it mere co-incedence that's the same storage capacity as a floppy disk?
  • CyndaneCyndane Join Date: 2003-11-15 Member: 22913Members
    Records of the 45 and 33 variety would not be able to hold data, for there isn't digital format available.

    You need 1s and 0's for data, records have pits and spaces much like morse code:

    Example: ____ ---- __ -- _-_____-

    Not individual slots.

    If I am wrong, someone prove it to me pls. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • GwahirGwahir Join Date: 2002-04-24 Member: 513Members, Constellation
    the question is still extremely debatable. You'd have to set up a representation into a power of 2 numeric system that would take good advantage of the dept properties of a record groove. It would be a waste to use 2 tones like a modem does, although a modem doesn't always use the same 2 tones and more advanced ones use multiple tones.

    The question really can't be definitively answered.
  • LegionnairedLegionnaired Join Date: 2002-04-30 Member: 552Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jun 1 2005, 10:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 1 2005, 10:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Records of the 45 and 33 variety would not be able to hold data, for there isn't digital format available.

    You need 1s and 0's for data, records have pits and spaces much like morse code:

    Example: ____ ---- __ -- _-_____-

    Not individual slots.

    If I am wrong, someone prove it to me pls. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Pits? Kind of like..... CDs? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • CyndaneCyndane Join Date: 2003-11-15 Member: 22913Members
    CD's have a specified space size and grove size. Records do not, they were varying sizes, which is why some held less songs then others. The average time on a record varied depending upon who made said record. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • GwahirGwahir Join Date: 2002-04-24 Member: 513Members, Constellation
    since you could play a record with nothing more than a needle hooked up to a megaphone and a way to make the needle run along the track, it's pretty safe to say the data on the record is a direct transcription of the waveform data and not an interpretted data form like CDs.
  • CabooseCaboose title = name(self, handle) Join Date: 2003-02-15 Member: 13597Members, Constellation
    Except the pits on a record could be of varying depths and lengths to match sound waves, not just 1's and 0's like a CD.

    I don't know this for sure, but it makes sense to me.
  • im_lostim_lost TWG Rule Guru Join Date: 2003-04-26 Member: 15861Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jun 1 2005, 08:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 1 2005, 08:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->CD's have a specified space size and grove size. Records do not, they were varying sizes, which is why some held less songs then others.  The average time on a record varied depending upon who made said record. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    So a standard would be created, then a data storage capacity could be determined.
  • CyndaneCyndane Join Date: 2003-11-15 Member: 22913Members
    A standard could be created yes, however at this time it would be pointless, because you would have to rewrite the players of the records to read in a digital format, which would require some form of decoding. Record players do not have such capabilities, as such a "blank" record could not be used to hold data.
  • DaJMastaDaJMasta Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34750Members, Constellation
    edited June 2005
    Caboose nailed it, really the only way to define how much data could be written would be to define how small and percise you could make the reader and writer.

    Technically the standard would be designated as how precisely you could measure and write information to it. You then get into issues with the strength of the material limiting how well it can be read multiple times, and how accurate you want everything to be.

    If you had a record of incredible hardness which would never loose an atom of itself, a way to write it on a picometer scale, and a way to reliably read it with 128 or 256 bit accuracy (allowing billions of "tones" to be written) you could store terabytes of information.

    Using standard equpiment, you may be able to push several megabytes. Maybe a gigabyte in a lab. (very rough estimate)

    Open ended questions FTW! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • [WHO]Them[WHO]Them You can call me Dave Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10593Members, Constellation
    edited June 2005
    Totally doable, but more specifically aimed at DajMasta. If you could engineer a record to never lose an atom of itself, why not just off the deep end and guarantee infinitely precise atom alignment.

    With an infinitely precise alignment, you could theoretically store an amount of information whose limit is infinity in a single atom. Which strangeley wouldn't be enough to store 2 aligned atoms of this nature <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • SoulSkorpionSoulSkorpion Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 423Members
    It's still a valid question, to which the answer is "as small as you can make the pits and flats and still be able to read them".
  • [WHO]Them[WHO]Them You can call me Dave Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10593Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Jun 2 2005, 01:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Jun 2 2005, 01:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's still a valid question, to which the answer is "as small as you can make the pits and flats and still be able to read them". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    error correction comes largely into play as well.
  • SoulSkorpionSoulSkorpion Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 423Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-T h e m+Jun 2 2005, 04:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (T h e m @ Jun 2 2005, 04:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Jun 2 2005, 01:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Jun 2 2005, 01:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's still a valid question, to which the answer is "as small as you can make the pits and flats and still be able to read them". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    error correction comes largely into play as well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well... depending on what kind of error correction that comes down to capacity as well, just that less of the capacity is available for data.
  • UltimaGeckoUltimaGecko hates endnotes Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16320Members
    Well, with actual conventional records, it would probably be useless after the first round if you did manage to transmit it digitally; since the needle basically scrapes off material on they way. If you did save/write something on the record it would be different each time you read off it (even music on the records would slowly become different tones or have scratchiness).


    If you had and indestructible record (frist of all, what are you writing the info with?) then you'd probably get a data storage about equal to that floppy stated earlier (although it's probably less than 64kbps, because the sound quality is about equal to a telephone (8-16kbps)).
  • DaJMastaDaJMasta Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34750Members, Constellation
    Think of it as music quality. A record now is like AM Radio quality or so...so you can hold as much information as 90 minutes of AM radio on a current record, having the different bump heights corrospond to bytes or words (instead of 1 and 0, you have 256 heights capable for being distinguished from each other).

    If you find a way to increase the quality of the music, you are increasing the capacity of the disk. Since the bumps are technically analog, there is no limit to how much you can fit, but with physical constraints, don't expect to get to better than a tape can hold (probably something more like 74 minutes of FM radio).
  • MausMaus Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5599Members
    Are we reading them at 45 or 33? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • Cereal_KillRCereal_KillR Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1837Members
    I don't know if it can be translatable. All that the needle does is vibrate as it goes in the grooves, creating sound. It's not 'translating' anything, therefore you cannot 'translate' bits into sound.
  • DaJMastaDaJMasta Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34750Members, Constellation
    Ever heard of an Analog to Digital converter or a Digital to Analog converter?

    You could either the sound produced and record it (like a modem) or directly monitor the movement of the needle. All you would need is an A to D converter to change the analog signals into bytes and bits.

    Not to say that it would be an 'experience' actually trying to rig one of these things up <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • FangsFangs Join Date: 2003-02-13 Member: 13506Members
    /me takes a break from burning his mp3's to vinal records to read this thread.

    hmnn

    /me goes back to burning.
  • MantridMantrid Lockpick Join Date: 2003-12-07 Member: 24109Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Cereal KillR+Jun 2 2005, 07:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal KillR @ Jun 2 2005, 07:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't know if it can be translatable. All that the needle does is vibrate as it goes in the grooves, creating sound. It's not 'translating' anything, therefore you cannot 'translate' bits into sound. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Um... modem?
  • MelatoninMelatonin Babbler Join Date: 2003-03-15 Member: 14551Members, Constellation
    edited June 2005
    what the hell are you dudes on about?!
    records sounding like 64kbs, like a phone line? like AM radio?!!

    Alot of people think records sound just as good as CDs, if not more so because of the 'warmth' of vinyl, as opposed to the cold digital sound of a CD.

    certainly, they are above radio quality!


    VINYL IS NOT DEAD!
    *ameh* [/fanboy]

    I think something like this has already been done with Stantons Final Scratch, it uses 'time coded' vinyls to manipulate mp3s, wavs etc.. in real time.

    Im not sure how it works, but it aint music on them records...
  • DaJMastaDaJMasta Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34750Members, Constellation
    It depends greatly on personal prefrence (especially if raised on them) and the player and quality of the records.

    For the most part, they are no where near CD recording quality. Most have more dynamic and pitch range than a phone, but a digital equivalent quality of even a well kept record is clean radio quality. It does have a unique sound, it did do a decent job, there is MUCH better now.
  • AllUrHiveRblong2usAllUrHiveRblong2us By Your Powers Combined... Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11244Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Jun 1 2005, 10:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Jun 1 2005, 10:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Records = 23 minutes/side x 64kbps (low quality music) = 1472 kb, or about 1.4375 megs...

    Is it mere co-incedence that's the same storage capacity as a floppy disk? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I believe that floppys were originally invented to replace LPs, so it's not coincidence.
  • SandstormSandstorm Join Date: 2003-09-25 Member: 21205Members
    Records and CDs are very similar. The main difference is that records use vibrations from a needle touching the surface, while CDs use the reflection from laser light. Analog probably makes more sense on a CD, since they don't get worn out as fast as records.

    Most computer components use digital signals because they have far more precision, even though analog holds far more data in the same space. This is because analog signals change, due to various forms of interference and imperfection in the transmission materials. This isn't really a big issue with video/audio, but it definitely would be with, say, executable code.
  • CyndaneCyndane Join Date: 2003-11-15 Member: 22913Members
    edited June 2005
    <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_record' target='_blank'>Wikipedia</a> says no...

    *edit*

    <!--QuoteBegin-sandstorm+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sandstorm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    Records and CDs are very similar. The main difference is that records use vibrations from a needle touching the surface, while CDs use the reflection from laser light. Analog probably makes more sense on a CD, since they don't get worn out as fast as records.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Audio on a CD, well anything on a CD is in 1s and 0s of a specificed size, there is no analog.

    Audio on a vinyl record, is read by the groves being longer/shorter to reproduce said sounds more naturally.

    <!--QuoteBegin-sandstorm+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sandstorm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    Most computer components use digital signals because they have far more precision, even though analog holds far more data in the same space. This is because analog signals change, due to various forms of interference and imperfection in the transmission materials. This isn't really a big issue with video/audio, but it definitely would be with, say, executable code.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Computer components use digital because you can fit more digital 1s and 0s then you can fit on an analog medium, like audio cassettes. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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