pistol scripts, yes people can reach the capped rate, but that takes practice to do it keeping your steady aim and do it consistently... its a SKILL.. skills should be learnt. If someone practices more with their pistoling to be better at it then they earnt that advantage, if sum1 uses a script to get that capped rate.. they didnt earn it and .: it is an unfair advantage for them.
scripts that change weps for them and this that the other.. people put time and effort into getting used to and learning how to blink/metab/swipe and conserver energy nicely. Why remove their earnt advantage by just letting everyone else use a script to the same effect?
we want everyone to play to their best ability yes.. but THEIR ability, if they are a inconsistent player, thats their own bloody fault and it doesnt justify the use of a script.. practice more and become more consistent.
people say comfort issues are involved for 3 jump scripts (prefer space bar). that sort of makes sense but you cant seperate a 3jump script from the other scripts that have a larger impact on the game outcome.
People say it isnt big enough advantages to effect the game outcome.. im sorry but thats complete CRAP.
no matter how small an advantage is, it CAN always effect game outcome.
e.g. team 1 v team 2: (no scripts) team 1 - 1 marine building pg on his own next to building hive, almost done but 3 skulks go for him, he kills 2 with lmg then starts to pistol the last 1, but the skulk gets a bite on him 0.1 seconds b4 he gets his last pistol shot in and dies. Sometimes he can get that last shot in 0.1 second faster but that time he didn't, hive goes up and the game is alien win.
team 1 v team 2 (scripting) same situation, kills 2 skulks with lmg then unloads a pistol script into the last skulk, he gets his 5th pistol shot in 0.1 second before the skulk bites him now, the marine lives, pg goes up, marines sg the hive down and lock it down. go on to win the game.
some people say that "well he can shoot at the same speed as capped every now and then, so its not affected his skill level"..
^^ in my eyes thats just dumb, u dont see 100m sprinters having special magikal abilities that make them run at their PB every time they race. CONSISTENCY IS A SKILL.
So.. scripts effect the outcome of close games and should NOT be used in competative play.
if people have played with them and got used to them in the past.. that was of their own choice to involve scripts and basicly, tough ****. learn to play without them.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+May 3 2005, 03:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ May 3 2005, 03:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'll go out on a limb and actually try to answer that >_> (it's a good point you're making).
I think it all boils down to skill in the end.
With the default crosshairs you really cant see what you're aiming at, but with a small white cross (for example), suddenly minute differences in abilities to aim are seen since the players shooting can now actually see what they're trying to shoot. Better crosshairs makes the skill aiming more important.
Rates (in laymans terms) make more of your bullets register, and make what you see more like what's actually happening. With good rates suddenly a random element is removed and how the player aims and moves have a larger impact.
Ambient sounds masks footsteps, and reduces the benifits of knowing how to move silently and when. Remove the ambient sound and suddenly the player attacking you cant just run at you, he/she will probably need to sneak up on you or already be in place to ambush. This (imo) adds to the game as a player adept in moving well or ambushing is awarded with a slight advantage.
Scripts (and jump bound to mwheel) remove the benifit of being able to click quickly while still being able to aim with the pistol, it enable you to somewhat reduce the disadvantage you have if you're not able to wigglewaggle, it suddenly give you the ability to time jumps almost perfectly, while without that ability someone who had practiced and could do it somewhat well would have an advantage over you (if you havent practiced/isnt able to).
So what's my point? Awarding people who can do things better than others. Yes, clicking attack repeatedly IS a skill. Blinding someone with a huge and vividly coloured crosshair makes that persons ability to do minute adjustments in aim less useful.
Of course, on the other hand we have the arguement of hardware. One could argue that someone with worse hardware would be at a disadvantage when it comes to jump timing if scripts/mwheel couldnt be used, and yes I guess that'd be correct. The question then would be what is most important, pleasing the minority whos system is old enough they cant run HL properly, or awarding people who have put alot of practice into the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Your argument seems to go something like this:
The skills that should be emphasized are aim and button-clicking, therefore the game should be built around that.
Your discussions of the individual tweaks seem based on this.
If you think that the ability to click a button over and over (modulo the mousewheel) is something that should be emphasized in an fps/rts or whatever NS is labeled as, then that is a pretty fundamental basis of your opinion, and maybe this is the core of the issue that separates pro-scripters from anti-scripters. I rather believe that pro-scripters think the idea of an important skill in NS being the ability to click a button quickly is sort of silly. If you believe that being able to click quickly is a skill, just like aiming, then the scripts under discussion would be analogous to an aimbot, which is obviously frowned upon.
Your particular discussions of the tweaks leave me somewhat confused, though.
Sure, better crosshairs make aiming easier, but they still provide you an advantage over players who have not gone out of their way to find/make third-party crosshairs. How is this advantage fair? Because your inherent ability to aim can translate more directly to the game, and aiming is one of the essential abilities of NS? What if one were to argue that being able to deal with a poor crosshair, such as comes with the game and many, many players use, ought to be a skill possessed by a good NS player? A good crosshair makes aiming easier with no downside, and it removes the necessity of a player to deal with the visual obstruction. Similarly, one might argue that a pistol script removes the necessity to deal with rolling a wheel while moving one's mouse to aim, emphasizing a player's aim over all else.
You say that removing ambient sounds is okay because players should be able to hear skulks with no distractions, making skulks need more intelligence. First, obviously, the same argument of "well most people leave ambient sounds in, so how on earth do you justify this as fair?" applies. Second, I was under the impression that CAL actually considered the removal of ambient sounds cheating. Third, while this causes skulks to need to ambush more, it affects balance in a game that is presumably intended to have those sounds as other stuff to hear in the background, to compete with the noises skulks make. Removing your ambient sounds means you no longer have to be able to pick out a skulk walking among background noise. This detracts from this skill, which one could say is easily as important as the ability to click a button repeatedly.
You brought up ambient sound, but I was merely speaking of the in-game music (cl_musicenabled 0). There is no option in the menu that I can find that disables this. I would bet that the number of CAL players who have music enabled is in the single digits. They do this because they find the music a hinderance, and it takes much less ability at audio recognition to notice a skulk walking if you do not have the music playing.
Then we come to scripts. You say throughout your post that disabling and changing various things emphasizes aiming, and takes out random elements. If you have a poor mouse wheel, doing any sort of useful motion with your mouse while trying to scroll the wheel can result in wildly inconsistent behavior. With automated repetition, the actions focus on your aim and bhop movement abilities (though I again refer to the many people who say that, with a decent mousewheel, bunnyhopping without scripts is no easier...I haven't seen anyone really argue with this).
A couple of other generally-accepted tweaks that I am curious about your opinions on: customized huds: the goal of these is generally to increase screen real estate, so that the player can see something he might otherwise miss. I hope I am not putting words in your mouth (well, I am, of course, but I hope that at least they sound like words you might say <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->), but I presume the defense of this would go something like "they allow you to see more so that you're able to aim and aim becomes more important". Aim cannot be emphasized over everything. The same argument could be applied to the removal of gun models. "If you take out the skulk teeth, then skulks aim becomes more important, so obviously we should take out the teeth".
What is considered an illegal exploit vs what is just a smart tweak always comes down to community opinion.
As near as I can tell, this issue in particular boils down to whether you think that being able to click a button repeatedly should be considered an integral game-skill. I'm not sure how much debate can take place on this point, as I'm having a difficult time imagining arguments one could construct about it aside from "of course it's important" or "d00d why should being able to click fast matter". I guess the last recourse would be to ask the devs if they think that being able to click quickly should be an important part of NS <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+May 3 2005, 05:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ May 3 2005, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> spending 16 hours a days leveling a character or sorting your socks by color - they're all skills. But they're not things you look for in an intelligent and fun game
We don't want to see whose better at idiotic and boring tasks, or we'd be auditioning for Americas Next Top Model right now
we want to see whose smarter, faster, better at aiming, positioning, movement and awareness.
We want to see whose better when we discount as much of the discomfort of using clumsy controls we can. I don't for example want to see if I'm better at weaponswitching than Franky 4 Fingers - because I'm pretty flipping sure I am. I want to see which of the two of us is the better NSPlayer. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> "the better NSPlayer"
part of NS is switching between controls for maximum effect. if one guy can blink-metab-swipe without a script then he's better at that than the people who cant without one.. he should REMAIN better at that.
"we want to see whose smarter, faster, better at aiming, positioning, movement and awareness."
faster? pistol scripts increase speed, 3jump scripts also do when compared against other single button bhop methods.
better at aiming? when i spam a button ur hand shakes and u lose accuracy, when u hold down a button u dont shake as much and u have more accuracy.. pistol scripts remove button spamming as much.. helping the aim, so with scripts u actually ARENT seeing whose better at aiming.
movement? such as fade energy conservation which is a MASSIVE part of fading.. you can remove the effort and time needed to be great at that with a script.. way to see whose better at it!
"spending 16 hours a days leveling a character or sorting your socks by color - they're all skills. But they're not things you look for in an intelligent and fun game"
spending many hours practicing your abilities in playing NS is somethig to look for, mastering the "clumsy controls".
if other people play without scripts, what makes you so special? or is it just ignorance of the fact that scripts DO improve certain abilities without the need for as much practice.. (not saying this is for everyone, but its a possibility.. and we should REMOVE possibilities of this.. keep it all on the same level and then we dont have ANY need for these discussions)
next you'll be saying wallhacks dont give an advantage because people can hear where the enemy is anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin-Lump+May 3 2005, 06:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lump @ May 3 2005, 06:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> part of NS is switching between controls for maximum effect. if one guy can blink-metab-swipe without a script then he's better at that than the people who cant without one.. he should REMAIN better at that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So you don't agree with evening of the skill gap because I'm pretty sure that diminishing it was what blockscripts was implemented for. I mean basicly bs 0 makes it harder for nubs to play on the same level as so called "high skilled" players.
The only problem with stating that scripts are inherantly bad is that they can be worked around. Making bs_0 will mean that competitive players will use macros for the advantage gained, thereby punishing the non macro users.
In an ideal world ns devs would include all neccessary scripts i.e. _special +jump (in fact that's probably the only one) and remove the possiblility of scripting/aliasing/or even double binding. This would mean that aliens get the skill advantage they need in higher skilled games, and everyone would be on the same playing fields. Of course I dont think that this is possible. So gg why even talk about bs_1 it's relatively minor, and easy to circumvent.,
comparing ambient sounds and ch's to pistol scripts is the same as comparing pistol scripts to wallhacks.
you support wallhacks?
only things i can agree with are ch's (slightly) and rates.. (why did they put background music in?).
i agree with the ch's because.. well personally i think the default ch's are retardedly big, but if u have too small ch's u cant aim for ****.. its just fixing a problem that the default ch's show your radius of fire incorrectly.. they should just put the 1.04 ch's back into the game and everyone can live with them thnx.
rates fix a problem of bullets not being where they should be. also fix lag issues blah blah.
ambient sounds shouldnt be able to be turned off. they are part of the map.
customised huds are naughty and i frown upon them.
The UK and EU players take pride in their <u>unaided</u> abilities, for the most part. It is common place that we will get accused of scripting, on blockscripts 1 servers.
It is in our our own interests to better ourselves and our own ability.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I mean basicly bs 0 makes it harder for nubs to play on the same level as so called "high skilled" players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
newer clans don't stand a chance either way, when against the "top" tier clans.
next you'll be saying wallhacks dont give an advantage because people can hear where the enemy is anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> and thats where you lost. A wall hack is where you have to hack into a couple of DLLs and change a bunch of settings, using some random thing. Or downloading the DLL.
If you can set it up ingame, its okay. I can write a bhop script in the consol and bind it to a key easily.
I can also spend 35 rez at the observitory and get an ingame wall hack. yet thats okay.
but...basicly this debate is kinda the same debate as: Christanity vs Athiesis. Athiesist will burn in hell & Christains are not in touch with reality. (I think you get the idea)
Now conserning the tourny. Seeing how the european clan seen had deminished, and the NA clan sean is growing. It would be logical to allow scripts, for this will attract far more clan than the rest.
Now granted since there are more NA clans than European, Which would technachly mean there are more Scripting clans than non ones, It seems as if the anti-script movement is slowy dying, untill to the point any anti scripter will be burned at the steak. but thats just my theory.
The only problem is, the majority are fairly new, while the only ones that are heard about are the few clans who are at the top. And the ones at the top get bored, because the new clans won't play them. They play the same handful of clans every week.
I could say "I only ever hear of 5 US clans, they must be short of clans."
And going on servers, there are an almost equal number of servers this side, as that side of the atlantic. Of the servers here, about 15 have blockscripts 0.
This isn't about who has the larger community, I know that, but ours is certainly not dieing, only a few nay sayers believe that.
you ignored my point entirely.. and sort of proved it a bit.
NA is where NS is made and controled, you have CAL which has more support & staff, NA also does not have language barriers. NA is NOTHING LIKE eu for NS.. the fact one uses scripts and the other doesnt is irrelivent.
"TeamEU beat TeamNA 3-1, teamEU didnt use scripts and so we shouldnt use scripts"
<!--QuoteBegin-Lump+May 3 2005, 08:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lump @ May 3 2005, 08:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you ignored my point entirely.. and sort of proved it a bit.
NA is where NS is made and controled, you have CAL which has more support & staff, NA also does not have language barriers. NA is NOTHING LIKE eu for NS.. the fact one uses scripts and the other doesnt is irrelivent.
"TeamEU beat TeamNA 3-1, teamEU didnt use scripts and so we shouldnt use scripts"
see, i can make no sense at all too! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You don’t need to try, to not make any sense. You were already being rather successful
<!--QuoteBegin-Gecko God Of Dooom+May 3 2005, 09:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gecko God Of Dooom @ May 3 2005, 09:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Lump+May 3 2005, 08:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lump @ May 3 2005, 08:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you ignored my point entirely.. and sort of proved it a bit.
NA is where NS is made and controled, you have CAL which has more support & staff, NA also does not have language barriers. NA is NOTHING LIKE eu for NS.. the fact one uses scripts and the other doesnt is irrelivent.
"TeamEU beat TeamNA 3-1, teamEU didnt use scripts and so we shouldnt use scripts"
see, i can make no sense at all too! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don’t need to try, to not make any sense. You were already being rather successful <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> care to give any examples so i can explain it for you
Argueing about this is like fighting a losing battle for either side, neither side will see the other sides view because it is not their view. I personally just quit scripting because of all the nubs that **** at you, and now all I say when they say "scripter" like it means I am only good because I am scripting is "no scripts". I do miss having a pistol script, and a 3jump because it was just so much easier to do multiple jumps + shooting. Using scripts for over a year really **** up my timing and I still havent got my timing back after several months.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dirm+May 3 2005, 07:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dirm @ May 3 2005, 07:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+May 3 2005, 03:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ May 3 2005, 03:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'll go out on a limb and actually try to answer that >_> (it's a good point you're making).
I think it all boils down to skill in the end.
With the default crosshairs you really cant see what you're aiming at, but with a small white cross (for example), suddenly minute differences in abilities to aim are seen since the players shooting can now actually see what they're trying to shoot. Better crosshairs makes the skill aiming more important.
Rates (in laymans terms) make more of your bullets register, and make what you see more like what's actually happening. With good rates suddenly a random element is removed and how the player aims and moves have a larger impact.
Ambient sounds masks footsteps, and reduces the benifits of knowing how to move silently and when. Remove the ambient sound and suddenly the player attacking you cant just run at you, he/she will probably need to sneak up on you or already be in place to ambush. This (imo) adds to the game as a player adept in moving well or ambushing is awarded with a slight advantage.
Scripts (and jump bound to mwheel) remove the benifit of being able to click quickly while still being able to aim with the pistol, it enable you to somewhat reduce the disadvantage you have if you're not able to wigglewaggle, it suddenly give you the ability to time jumps almost perfectly, while without that ability someone who had practiced and could do it somewhat well would have an advantage over you (if you havent practiced/isnt able to).
So what's my point? Awarding people who can do things better than others. Yes, clicking attack repeatedly IS a skill. Blinding someone with a huge and vividly coloured crosshair makes that persons ability to do minute adjustments in aim less useful.
Of course, on the other hand we have the arguement of hardware. One could argue that someone with worse hardware would be at a disadvantage when it comes to jump timing if scripts/mwheel couldnt be used, and yes I guess that'd be correct. The question then would be what is most important, pleasing the minority whos system is old enough they cant run HL properly, or awarding people who have put alot of practice into the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your argument seems to go something like this:
The skills that should be emphasized are aim and button-clicking, therefore the game should be built around that.
Your discussions of the individual tweaks seem based on this.
If you think that the ability to click a button over and over (modulo the mousewheel) is something that should be emphasized in an fps/rts or whatever NS is labeled as, then that is a pretty fundamental basis of your opinion, and maybe this is the core of the issue that separates pro-scripters from anti-scripters. I rather believe that pro-scripters think the idea of an important skill in NS being the ability to click a button quickly is sort of silly. If you believe that being able to click quickly is a skill, just like aiming, then the scripts under discussion would be analogous to an aimbot, which is obviously frowned upon.
Your particular discussions of the tweaks leave me somewhat confused, though.
Sure, better crosshairs make aiming easier, but they still provide you an advantage over players who have not gone out of their way to find/make third-party crosshairs. How is this advantage fair? Because your inherent ability to aim can translate more directly to the game, and aiming is one of the essential abilities of NS? What if one were to argue that being able to deal with a poor crosshair, such as comes with the game and many, many players use, ought to be a skill possessed by a good NS player? A good crosshair makes aiming easier with no downside, and it removes the necessity of a player to deal with the visual obstruction. Similarly, one might argue that a pistol script removes the necessity to deal with rolling a wheel while moving one's mouse to aim, emphasizing a player's aim over all else.
You say that removing ambient sounds is okay because players should be able to hear skulks with no distractions, making skulks need more intelligence. First, obviously, the same argument of "well most people leave ambient sounds in, so how on earth do you justify this as fair?" applies. Second, I was under the impression that CAL actually considered the removal of ambient sounds cheating. Third, while this causes skulks to need to ambush more, it affects balance in a game that is presumably intended to have those sounds as other stuff to hear in the background, to compete with the noises skulks make. Removing your ambient sounds means you no longer have to be able to pick out a skulk walking among background noise. This detracts from this skill, which one could say is easily as important as the ability to click a button repeatedly.
You brought up ambient sound, but I was merely speaking of the in-game music (cl_musicenabled 0). There is no option in the menu that I can find that disables this. I would bet that the number of CAL players who have music enabled is in the single digits. They do this because they find the music a hinderance, and it takes much less ability at audio recognition to notice a skulk walking if you do not have the music playing.
Then we come to scripts. You say throughout your post that disabling and changing various things emphasizes aiming, and takes out random elements. If you have a poor mouse wheel, doing any sort of useful motion with your mouse while trying to scroll the wheel can result in wildly inconsistent behavior. With automated repetition, the actions focus on your aim and bhop movement abilities (though I again refer to the many people who say that, with a decent mousewheel, bunnyhopping without scripts is no easier...I haven't seen anyone really argue with this).
A couple of other generally-accepted tweaks that I am curious about your opinions on: customized huds: the goal of these is generally to increase screen real estate, so that the player can see something he might otherwise miss. I hope I am not putting words in your mouth (well, I am, of course, but I hope that at least they sound like words you might say <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->), but I presume the defense of this would go something like "they allow you to see more so that you're able to aim and aim becomes more important". Aim cannot be emphasized over everything. The same argument could be applied to the removal of gun models. "If you take out the skulk teeth, then skulks aim becomes more important, so obviously we should take out the teeth".
What is considered an illegal exploit vs what is just a smart tweak always comes down to community opinion.
As near as I can tell, this issue in particular boils down to whether you think that being able to click a button repeatedly should be considered an integral game-skill. I'm not sure how much debate can take place on this point, as I'm having a difficult time imagining arguments one could construct about it aside from "of course it's important" or "d00d why should being able to click fast matter". I guess the last recourse would be to ask the devs if they think that being able to click quickly should be an important part of NS <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you reread my post more carefully you will see that in my "dream ns" crosshairs would be better, ambient sounds would be lower/non-existant, music would be toggable through the options menu (didnt actually talk about music but this is kind of obvious considering the other things I have mentioned), +jump wouldnt be bindable to mwheel etc. I want all of these things changed just as I want scripts to be removed, but frankly those have nothing what so ever to do with the topic at hand (scripts and bs_1/0). I do in no way say these are more fair than other things. My opinion on how these items should be handled differs from my opinion on how scripts should be handled though, for reasons I have already described.
Now, I'm using scripts because frankly when everyone else is its just silly not to yourself. I change crosshairs, and use stopsound and cl_musicenabled 0 for the same reason. This does in no way I can percieve have any impact on my points, and arguing they have is silly.
Being able to correctly time your turns while bhopping is widely considered a skill, how is this different from being able to consistently shooting at max rate of fire with the pistol while keeping a stead aim? They are both about learning to execute repetetive key click and mouse movement patterns.
Aiming and clicking buttons are skills, yes. Skills that needs to be learned to gain an advantage you can use to an effect varying depending on how well you have mastered the tactical element of NS. Both are equally important and non-exclusive. In the end I do believe that someone who has practiced something and mastered it should have an advantage over someone who hasnt.
While I advocate the removal of scripts, the inclusion of better default crosshairs and enforcing them through consistency, removing ambient sounds (or making them optional through the menu) and removing "stopsound" this doesnt mean I wont use and customise these things while it is allowed, but using an aspect of the game and wanting it to be removed is two separate matters, and I'd be happy if you acknowledged that.
Bottom line: 1) we're talking about blockscripts here, not ambient sounds or crosshairs 2) me using or customising these things have no bearing on my arguements validity
Since there is no point in hammer the points, here is some raw information, digest it as you wish:
I personally asked over 15 foreign competitive players what key they use to bunny hop. Every player informed me they used the mouse wheel to bunny hop. About half of these players felt 3jump scripts were lame, the other half were neutral towards 3jump scripts. Of the players who felt 3jump scripts were lame, none could give me a valid explanation why the 3jump script was lamer than the using the mouse wheel.
I am going to assume all of them feel bunny hopping is a skillful element of Natural Selection.
And that is relevant how? How is 15 "foreign" (how can you be less specific) players' opinions relevant in any way or form? It feels like you are trying to draw the discussion away from any resemblance of constructivity and towards a "we and them"-type of flame war.
First of all you supply no reason to why you have gathered this info, and you're not even attempting to do anything with it.
Second you take 15 players from a VERY wide and diverse group, without stating the method of collecting the samples. Are they even random? It's only 15 samples and we dont know if they've been chosen at random, hardly anything conclusive.
Your questions were obviously angled in such a way that one "side" was favoured, and you present the "results" in a throughoutly biased way.
It was obviously an attempt of discrediting those you are not agreeing with.
[Edit]Oh, and I only got 65 in that test, I missed like like 1/4 of the clicks because my pointer wavered around alot.
First of all you supply no reason to why you have gathered this info, and you're not even attempting to do anything with it.
Second you take 15 players from a VERY wide and diverse group, without stating the method of collecting the samples. Are they even random? It's only 15 samples and we dont know if they've been chosen at random, hardly anything conclusive.
Your questions were obviously angled in such a way that one "side" was favoured, and you present the "results" in a throughoutly biased way.
It was obviously an attempt of discrediting those you are not agreeing with. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As explained in previous posts, much depends on what players consider a worth wild skill.
Players around the world are and always have used methods that remove the so called skill of timing jumps. Do you disagree that mwheel has replaced the jump script in bs 1 leagues? Because that is what the information concludes. Some leagues have adopted blockscripts because other methods have allowed the timing of jumps. I believe bs would NOT be enforced by ANY league if it disabled the use of mwheel.
While bs may prevent some scripts that are considered exploitive the MAIN impact is how it effects bunny hopping. And as I was trying to point out in my post, which you see as pointless, the worldwide competitive community has accepted that timing jumps should not be a major factor in determining the skill level of a player.
It is also woth noting that tfc and adrenaline gamer, both games which are extremely based on the skill envolved in bunny hopping, both <b>encourage</b> the use of methods to aid in the timing of jumps.
With mousewheel you can still miss your jumps <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
First of all you supply no reason to why you have gathered this info, and you're not even attempting to do anything with it.
Second you take 15 players from a VERY wide and diverse group, without stating the method of collecting the samples. Are they even random? It's only 15 samples and we dont know if they've been chosen at random, hardly anything conclusive.
Your questions were obviously angled in such a way that one "side" was favoured, and you present the "results" in a throughoutly biased way.
It was obviously an attempt of discrediting those you are not agreeing with. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As explained in previous posts, much depends on what players consider a worth wild skill.
Players around the world are and always have used methods that remove the so called skill of timing jumps. Do you disagree that mwheel has replaced the jump script in bs 1 leagues? Because that is what the information concludes. Some leagues have adopted blockscripts because other methods have allowed the timing of jumps. I believe bs would NOT be enforced by ANY league if it disabled the use of mwheel.
While bs may prevent some scripts that are considered exploitive the MAIN impact is how it effects bunny hopping. And as I was trying to point out in my post, which you see as pointless, the worldwide competitive community has accepted that timing jumps should not be a major factor in determining the skill level of a player. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Your so-called information is very inaccurate and far from conclusive. That coupled with the lack of explaining your reason for taking the samples made the post very inflammatory.
I believe you are wrong about the main impact is on bhopping. Since you can still use mwheel the impact on bhopping is minimal.
You still need to realise that the useage of mwheel for bhopping purposes doesnt imply that the person in question feels mwheel is less "lame" than 3jump. In the example of europe, people like I use mwheel since it is allowed and not using it would land me at a disadvantage. This doesnt mean I think mwheel usage is preferrable to 3jump scripts. I believe both are as bad and I'd like to see them removed. Untill then though I will continue to use mwheel for jump timing since this is the most reliable method in europe considering the widespread use of bs_1.
So your little poll didnt really show anything at all in the end. You say that everyone failed at giving a valid explanation to why 3jump was worse than mwheel? Perhaps that is because there isnt any, and people use mwheel for the reason I stated in the above paragraph.
Regardless, it's all speculation just as your conclusions, since we really dont have any conclusive data to test our assumptions on.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkFrost+May 4 2005, 02:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkFrost @ May 4 2005, 02:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> With mousewheel you can still miss your jumps <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not any more than a 3jump script, maybe you need a better peice of hardware. In fact a mwheels has many advantaged over a scripts. An mwheel has a closer effect to a macro in the fact that it can be repeated continuesly without hindering other commands. An mwheel can send commands at the frame rate of the client.
The real disadvantage of using the mwheel is having to use your finger to jump. Many players become accustom to using the default mapped keys. Not everyone likes to change their system and rebind their keys as all the mwheel exploiters have.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not everyone likes to change their system and rebind their keys as all the mwheel exploiters have.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do find it ironic that an american was trying to argue with an english league official, and now its flipped and a swede is arguing with an american league official.
I have nothing against either side of the argument. But I am curious as to what other purpose mouse wheel can have? It is a legitemate input to the options screen, aswell as legitemately bound through console and config editing.
It serves no purpose changing weapons without a fast switch fix script, as mousewheel changing still requires the use of +attack, when hud_fastswitch 1 is used.
It could be used to flashlight or +use, to really annoy the hell out of people. Or perhaps +attack to get the most out of your blink, maybe if you want to make some kind of short animation you could bind it to snapshot.
I do know people who can bunnyhop on a single button, bound +jump only. But they don't use spacebar, as its a far too unpredicable key, it does sometimes miss the contacts when you press it.
There is however no reason to be proud of yourself for achieving something due to an extended code bound to your config.
Myself, due to damage to my hand, can not reach the pistol cap as I once could, that doesn't mean I will script it, I make do with my limitations, and will gain full function of my hand again through forcing myself to use it like I did before. (Although I do have +attack bound to a key near my left hand too).
<!--QuoteBegin-homicide+May 4 2005, 11:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (homicide @ May 4 2005, 11:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There is nothing in that post that instigates a flame war.
This mite though: <a href='http://www.urban75.com/Mag/java7.html' target='_blank'>http://www.urban75.com/Mag/java7.html</a>
As far as everyone playing on the same playing field, here: bind space "+jump; wait; -jump; wait; +jump; wait; -jump; wait; +jump; wait; -jump" Now that the big secret script has been revealed, everyone is on the same playing field. You don’t even have to download files (crosshairs, huds, fake ambients). It is hardly unethical or harmful to anyone. If a league defines a script as being legal everyone can use it; everyone is on the same playing field. It is not as though some players can’t 'afford' the scripts. ‘We define’ the field; any such arguments, made by anyone, is pointless.
You said it your self, current blockscripts has little effect on bhopping because of mwheel...but errhehhh wait...we have established that mwheel and 3jump should be clasified together, Tjosan has agreed (read the quotes). It is extreme hypocritical believe in blockscripts and believe in mousewheel, therefore timing jumps would be done by a single timed key.
That’s the bottom line-- Do you think the game would be more enjoyable, more competitive, and simply better if EVERY players were suddenly forced to time the jumps with a single key? I do not. You do. This is where I leave it up to the players to decide.
Skulking would be totally redefined. The game style of Natural Selection as we know it would be redefined. There would be outrage. There would be a MAJOR drop in competitive play. YA YA YA that is all speculation but YOUR idea that removing an aided jump system would improve game play is a hell of a lot more speculated than mine.
I would have much rather seen a system such as quake style jumping, already included in many games. It would allow new players to naturally gain an understanding of bhopping instead of labeling it. Furthermore it would ‘not’ sever the skill separation between new players and extremely skilled players. The skill gap would remain but the new players would more ‘naturally’ reach the level of higher players. Instead we sink DEEPER, giving the easily influenced public communities a variable that mite as well be known as mp_blockallthingsbad. Players today are accused of scripts on ‘blocked’ server more than they ever were because mp_bs existed. Given that I believe aided jump timing IMPROVES gameplay removing the wigglewalk script is hardly worth the downfalls. I refuse to support a system that is moving in the wrong direction and separating the community at the same time.
Comments
pistol scripts, yes people can reach the capped rate, but that takes practice to do it keeping your steady aim and do it consistently... its a SKILL.. skills should be learnt. If someone practices more with their pistoling to be better at it then they earnt that advantage, if sum1 uses a script to get that capped rate.. they didnt earn it and .: it is an unfair advantage for them.
scripts that change weps for them and this that the other.. people put time and effort into getting used to and learning how to blink/metab/swipe and conserver energy nicely. Why remove their earnt advantage by just letting everyone else use a script to the same effect?
we want everyone to play to their best ability yes.. but THEIR ability, if they are a inconsistent player, thats their own bloody fault and it doesnt justify the use of a script.. practice more and become more consistent.
people say comfort issues are involved for 3 jump scripts (prefer space bar). that sort of makes sense but you cant seperate a 3jump script from the other scripts that have a larger impact on the game outcome.
People say it isnt big enough advantages to effect the game outcome.. im sorry but thats complete CRAP.
no matter how small an advantage is, it CAN always effect game outcome.
e.g.
team 1 v team 2: (no scripts)
team 1 - 1 marine building pg on his own next to building hive, almost done but 3 skulks go for him, he kills 2 with lmg then starts to pistol the last 1, but the skulk gets a bite on him 0.1 seconds b4 he gets his last pistol shot in and dies. Sometimes he can get that last shot in 0.1 second faster but that time he didn't, hive goes up and the game is alien win.
team 1 v team 2 (scripting)
same situation, kills 2 skulks with lmg then unloads a pistol script into the last skulk, he gets his 5th pistol shot in 0.1 second before the skulk bites him now, the marine lives, pg goes up, marines sg the hive down and lock it down. go on to win the game.
some people say that "well he can shoot at the same speed as capped every now and then, so its not affected his skill level"..
^^ in my eyes thats just dumb, u dont see 100m sprinters having special magikal abilities that make them run at their PB every time they race. CONSISTENCY IS A SKILL.
So.. scripts effect the outcome of close games and should NOT be used in competative play.
if people have played with them and got used to them in the past.. that was of their own choice to involve scripts and basicly, tough ****. learn to play without them.
I think it all boils down to skill in the end.
With the default crosshairs you really cant see what you're aiming at, but with a small white cross (for example), suddenly minute differences in abilities to aim are seen since the players shooting can now actually see what they're trying to shoot. Better crosshairs makes the skill aiming more important.
Rates (in laymans terms) make more of your bullets register, and make what you see more like what's actually happening. With good rates suddenly a random element is removed and how the player aims and moves have a larger impact.
Ambient sounds masks footsteps, and reduces the benifits of knowing how to move silently and when. Remove the ambient sound and suddenly the player attacking you cant just run at you, he/she will probably need to sneak up on you or already be in place to ambush. This (imo) adds to the game as a player adept in moving well or ambushing is awarded with a slight advantage.
Scripts (and jump bound to mwheel) remove the benifit of being able to click quickly while still being able to aim with the pistol, it enable you to somewhat reduce the disadvantage you have if you're not able to wigglewaggle, it suddenly give you the ability to time jumps almost perfectly, while without that ability someone who had practiced and could do it somewhat well would have an advantage over you (if you havent practiced/isnt able to).
So what's my point? Awarding people who can do things better than others. Yes, clicking attack repeatedly IS a skill. Blinding someone with a huge and vividly coloured crosshair makes that persons ability to do minute adjustments in aim less useful.
Of course, on the other hand we have the arguement of hardware. One could argue that someone with worse hardware would be at a disadvantage when it comes to jump timing if scripts/mwheel couldnt be used, and yes I guess that'd be correct. The question then would be what is most important, pleasing the minority whos system is old enough they cant run HL properly, or awarding people who have put alot of practice into the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your argument seems to go something like this:
The skills that should be emphasized are aim and button-clicking, therefore the game should be built around that.
Your discussions of the individual tweaks seem based on this.
If you think that the ability to click a button over and over (modulo the mousewheel) is something that should be emphasized in an fps/rts or whatever NS is labeled as, then that is a pretty fundamental basis of your opinion, and maybe this is the core of the issue that separates pro-scripters from anti-scripters. I rather believe that pro-scripters think the idea of an important skill in NS being the ability to click a button quickly is sort of silly. If you believe that being able to click quickly is a skill, just like aiming, then the scripts under discussion would be analogous to an aimbot, which is obviously frowned upon.
Your particular discussions of the tweaks leave me somewhat confused, though.
Sure, better crosshairs make aiming easier, but they still provide you an advantage over players who have not gone out of their way to find/make third-party crosshairs. How is this advantage fair? Because your inherent ability to aim can translate more directly to the game, and aiming is one of the essential abilities of NS? What if one were to argue that being able to deal with a poor crosshair, such as comes with the game and many, many players use, ought to be a skill possessed by a good NS player? A good crosshair makes aiming easier with no downside, and it removes the necessity of a player to deal with the visual obstruction. Similarly, one might argue that a pistol script removes the necessity to deal with rolling a wheel while moving one's mouse to aim, emphasizing a player's aim over all else.
You say that removing ambient sounds is okay because players should be able to hear skulks with no distractions, making skulks need more intelligence. First, obviously, the same argument of "well most people leave ambient sounds in, so how on earth do you justify this as fair?" applies. Second, I was under the impression that CAL actually considered the removal of ambient sounds cheating. Third, while this causes skulks to need to ambush more, it affects balance in a game that is presumably intended to have those sounds as other stuff to hear in the background, to compete with the noises skulks make. Removing your ambient sounds means you no longer have to be able to pick out a skulk walking among background noise. This detracts from this skill, which one could say is easily as important as the ability to click a button repeatedly.
You brought up ambient sound, but I was merely speaking of the in-game music (cl_musicenabled 0). There is no option in the menu that I can find that disables this. I would bet that the number of CAL players who have music enabled is in the single digits. They do this because they find the music a hinderance, and it takes much less ability at audio recognition to notice a skulk walking if you do not have the music playing.
Then we come to scripts. You say throughout your post that disabling and changing various things emphasizes aiming, and takes out random elements. If you have a poor mouse wheel, doing any sort of useful motion with your mouse while trying to scroll the wheel can result in wildly inconsistent behavior. With automated repetition, the actions focus on your aim and bhop movement abilities (though I again refer to the many people who say that, with a decent mousewheel, bunnyhopping without scripts is no easier...I haven't seen anyone really argue with this).
A couple of other generally-accepted tweaks that I am curious about your opinions on:
customized huds: the goal of these is generally to increase screen real estate, so that the player can see something he might otherwise miss. I hope I am not putting words in your mouth (well, I am, of course, but I hope that at least they sound like words you might say <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->), but I presume the defense of this would go something like "they allow you to see more so that you're able to aim and aim becomes more important". Aim cannot be emphasized over everything. The same argument could be applied to the removal of gun models. "If you take out the skulk teeth, then skulks aim becomes more important, so obviously we should take out the teeth".
What is considered an illegal exploit vs what is just a smart tweak always comes down to community opinion.
As near as I can tell, this issue in particular boils down to whether you think that being able to click a button repeatedly should be considered an integral game-skill. I'm not sure how much debate can take place on this point, as I'm having a difficult time imagining arguments one could construct about it aside from "of course it's important" or "d00d why should being able to click fast matter". I guess the last recourse would be to ask the devs if they think that being able to click quickly should be an important part of NS <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
We don't want to see whose better at idiotic and boring tasks, or we'd be auditioning for Americas Next Top Model right now
we want to see whose smarter, faster, better at aiming, positioning, movement and awareness.
We want to see whose better when we discount as much of the discomfort of using clumsy controls we can. I don't for example want to see if I'm better at weaponswitching than Franky 4 Fingers - because I'm pretty flipping sure I am. I want to see which of the two of us is the better NSPlayer. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
"the better NSPlayer"
part of NS is switching between controls for maximum effect. if one guy can blink-metab-swipe without a script then he's better at that than the people who cant without one.. he should REMAIN better at that.
"we want to see whose smarter, faster, better at aiming, positioning, movement and awareness."
faster? pistol scripts increase speed, 3jump scripts also do when compared against other single button bhop methods.
better at aiming? when i spam a button ur hand shakes and u lose accuracy, when u hold down a button u dont shake as much and u have more accuracy.. pistol scripts remove button spamming as much.. helping the aim, so with scripts u actually ARENT seeing whose better at aiming.
movement? such as fade energy conservation which is a MASSIVE part of fading.. you can remove the effort and time needed to be great at that with a script.. way to see whose better at it!
"spending 16 hours a days leveling a character or sorting your socks by color - they're all skills. But they're not things you look for in an intelligent and fun game"
spending many hours practicing your abilities in playing NS is somethig to look for, mastering the "clumsy controls".
if other people play without scripts, what makes you so special? or is it just ignorance of the fact that scripts DO improve certain abilities without the need for as much practice.. (not saying this is for everyone, but its a possibility.. and we should REMOVE possibilities of this.. keep it all on the same level and then we dont have ANY need for these discussions)
next you'll be saying wallhacks dont give an advantage because people can hear where the enemy is anyway.
So you don't agree with evening of the skill gap because I'm pretty sure that diminishing it was what blockscripts was implemented for. I mean basicly bs 0 makes it harder for nubs to play on the same level as so called "high skilled" players.
In an ideal world ns devs would include all neccessary scripts i.e. _special +jump (in fact that's probably the only one) and remove the possiblility of scripting/aliasing/or even double binding. This would mean that aliens get the skill advantage they need in higher skilled games, and everyone would be on the same playing fields. Of course I dont think that this is possible. So gg why even talk about bs_1 it's relatively minor, and easy to circumvent.,
Confusion
you support wallhacks?
only things i can agree with are ch's (slightly) and rates.. (why did they put background music in?).
i agree with the ch's because.. well personally i think the default ch's are retardedly big, but if u have too small ch's u cant aim for ****.. its just fixing a problem that the default ch's show your radius of fire incorrectly.. they should just put the 1.04 ch's back into the game and everyone can live with them thnx.
rates fix a problem of bullets not being where they should be. also fix lag issues blah blah.
ambient sounds shouldnt be able to be turned off. they are part of the map.
customised huds are naughty and i frown upon them.
music is just stupid.. why is it there plz?!
It is in our our own interests to better ourselves and our own ability.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I mean basicly bs 0 makes it harder for nubs to play on the same level as so called "high skilled" players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
newer clans don't stand a chance either way, when against the "top" tier clans.
next you'll be saying wallhacks dont give an advantage because people can hear where the enemy is anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
and thats where you lost. A wall hack is where you have to hack into a couple of DLLs and change a bunch of settings, using some random thing. Or downloading the DLL.
If you can set it up ingame, its okay.
I can write a bhop script in the consol and bind it to a key easily.
I can also spend 35 rez at the observitory and get an ingame wall hack. yet thats okay.
but...basicly this debate is kinda the same debate as:
Christanity vs Athiesis.
Athiesist will burn in hell
&
Christains are not in touch with reality.
(I think you get the idea)
Now conserning the tourny. Seeing how the european clan seen had deminished, and the NA clan sean is growing. It would be logical to allow scripts, for this will attract far more clan than the rest.
Now granted since there are more NA clans than European, Which would technachly mean there are more Scripting clans than non ones, It seems as if the anti-script movement is slowy dying, untill to the point any anti scripter will be burned at the steak. but thats just my theory.
The only problem is, the majority are fairly new, while the only ones that are heard about are the few clans who are at the top. And the ones at the top get bored, because the new clans won't play them. They play the same handful of clans every week.
I could say "I only ever hear of 5 US clans, they must be short of clans."
And going on servers, there are an almost equal number of servers this side, as that side of the atlantic. Of the servers here, about 15 have blockscripts 0.
This isn't about who has the larger community, I know that, but ours is certainly not dieing, only a few nay sayers believe that.
NA is where NS is made and controled, you have CAL which has more support & staff, NA also does not have language barriers. NA is NOTHING LIKE eu for NS.. the fact one uses scripts and the other doesnt is irrelivent.
"TeamEU beat TeamNA 3-1, teamEU didnt use scripts and so we shouldnt use scripts"
see, i can make no sense at all too!
NA is where NS is made and controled, you have CAL which has more support & staff, NA also does not have language barriers. NA is NOTHING LIKE eu for NS.. the fact one uses scripts and the other doesnt is irrelivent.
"TeamEU beat TeamNA 3-1, teamEU didnt use scripts and so we shouldnt use scripts"
see, i can make no sense at all too! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don’t need to try, to not make any sense. You were already being rather successful
NA is where NS is made and controled, you have CAL which has more support & staff, NA also does not have language barriers. NA is NOTHING LIKE eu for NS.. the fact one uses scripts and the other doesnt is irrelivent.
"TeamEU beat TeamNA 3-1, teamEU didnt use scripts and so we shouldnt use scripts"
see, i can make no sense at all too! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don’t need to try, to not make any sense. You were already being rather successful <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
care to give any examples so i can explain it for you
I think it all boils down to skill in the end.
With the default crosshairs you really cant see what you're aiming at, but with a small white cross (for example), suddenly minute differences in abilities to aim are seen since the players shooting can now actually see what they're trying to shoot. Better crosshairs makes the skill aiming more important.
Rates (in laymans terms) make more of your bullets register, and make what you see more like what's actually happening. With good rates suddenly a random element is removed and how the player aims and moves have a larger impact.
Ambient sounds masks footsteps, and reduces the benifits of knowing how to move silently and when. Remove the ambient sound and suddenly the player attacking you cant just run at you, he/she will probably need to sneak up on you or already be in place to ambush. This (imo) adds to the game as a player adept in moving well or ambushing is awarded with a slight advantage.
Scripts (and jump bound to mwheel) remove the benifit of being able to click quickly while still being able to aim with the pistol, it enable you to somewhat reduce the disadvantage you have if you're not able to wigglewaggle, it suddenly give you the ability to time jumps almost perfectly, while without that ability someone who had practiced and could do it somewhat well would have an advantage over you (if you havent practiced/isnt able to).
So what's my point? Awarding people who can do things better than others. Yes, clicking attack repeatedly IS a skill. Blinding someone with a huge and vividly coloured crosshair makes that persons ability to do minute adjustments in aim less useful.
Of course, on the other hand we have the arguement of hardware. One could argue that someone with worse hardware would be at a disadvantage when it comes to jump timing if scripts/mwheel couldnt be used, and yes I guess that'd be correct. The question then would be what is most important, pleasing the minority whos system is old enough they cant run HL properly, or awarding people who have put alot of practice into the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your argument seems to go something like this:
The skills that should be emphasized are aim and button-clicking, therefore the game should be built around that.
Your discussions of the individual tweaks seem based on this.
If you think that the ability to click a button over and over (modulo the mousewheel) is something that should be emphasized in an fps/rts or whatever NS is labeled as, then that is a pretty fundamental basis of your opinion, and maybe this is the core of the issue that separates pro-scripters from anti-scripters. I rather believe that pro-scripters think the idea of an important skill in NS being the ability to click a button quickly is sort of silly. If you believe that being able to click quickly is a skill, just like aiming, then the scripts under discussion would be analogous to an aimbot, which is obviously frowned upon.
Your particular discussions of the tweaks leave me somewhat confused, though.
Sure, better crosshairs make aiming easier, but they still provide you an advantage over players who have not gone out of their way to find/make third-party crosshairs. How is this advantage fair? Because your inherent ability to aim can translate more directly to the game, and aiming is one of the essential abilities of NS? What if one were to argue that being able to deal with a poor crosshair, such as comes with the game and many, many players use, ought to be a skill possessed by a good NS player? A good crosshair makes aiming easier with no downside, and it removes the necessity of a player to deal with the visual obstruction. Similarly, one might argue that a pistol script removes the necessity to deal with rolling a wheel while moving one's mouse to aim, emphasizing a player's aim over all else.
You say that removing ambient sounds is okay because players should be able to hear skulks with no distractions, making skulks need more intelligence. First, obviously, the same argument of "well most people leave ambient sounds in, so how on earth do you justify this as fair?" applies. Second, I was under the impression that CAL actually considered the removal of ambient sounds cheating. Third, while this causes skulks to need to ambush more, it affects balance in a game that is presumably intended to have those sounds as other stuff to hear in the background, to compete with the noises skulks make. Removing your ambient sounds means you no longer have to be able to pick out a skulk walking among background noise. This detracts from this skill, which one could say is easily as important as the ability to click a button repeatedly.
You brought up ambient sound, but I was merely speaking of the in-game music (cl_musicenabled 0). There is no option in the menu that I can find that disables this. I would bet that the number of CAL players who have music enabled is in the single digits. They do this because they find the music a hinderance, and it takes much less ability at audio recognition to notice a skulk walking if you do not have the music playing.
Then we come to scripts. You say throughout your post that disabling and changing various things emphasizes aiming, and takes out random elements. If you have a poor mouse wheel, doing any sort of useful motion with your mouse while trying to scroll the wheel can result in wildly inconsistent behavior. With automated repetition, the actions focus on your aim and bhop movement abilities (though I again refer to the many people who say that, with a decent mousewheel, bunnyhopping without scripts is no easier...I haven't seen anyone really argue with this).
A couple of other generally-accepted tweaks that I am curious about your opinions on:
customized huds: the goal of these is generally to increase screen real estate, so that the player can see something he might otherwise miss. I hope I am not putting words in your mouth (well, I am, of course, but I hope that at least they sound like words you might say <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->), but I presume the defense of this would go something like "they allow you to see more so that you're able to aim and aim becomes more important". Aim cannot be emphasized over everything. The same argument could be applied to the removal of gun models. "If you take out the skulk teeth, then skulks aim becomes more important, so obviously we should take out the teeth".
What is considered an illegal exploit vs what is just a smart tweak always comes down to community opinion.
As near as I can tell, this issue in particular boils down to whether you think that being able to click a button repeatedly should be considered an integral game-skill. I'm not sure how much debate can take place on this point, as I'm having a difficult time imagining arguments one could construct about it aside from "of course it's important" or "d00d why should being able to click fast matter". I guess the last recourse would be to ask the devs if they think that being able to click quickly should be an important part of NS <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you reread my post more carefully you will see that in my "dream ns" crosshairs would be better, ambient sounds would be lower/non-existant, music would be toggable through the options menu (didnt actually talk about music but this is kind of obvious considering the other things I have mentioned), +jump wouldnt be bindable to mwheel etc. I want all of these things changed just as I want scripts to be removed, but frankly those have nothing what so ever to do with the topic at hand (scripts and bs_1/0). I do in no way say these are more fair than other things. My opinion on how these items should be handled differs from my opinion on how scripts should be handled though, for reasons I have already described.
Now, I'm using scripts because frankly when everyone else is its just silly not to yourself. I change crosshairs, and use stopsound and cl_musicenabled 0 for the same reason. This does in no way I can percieve have any impact on my points, and arguing they have is silly.
Being able to correctly time your turns while bhopping is widely considered a skill, how is this different from being able to consistently shooting at max rate of fire with the pistol while keeping a stead aim? They are both about learning to execute repetetive key click and mouse movement patterns.
Aiming and clicking buttons are skills, yes. Skills that needs to be learned to gain an advantage you can use to an effect varying depending on how well you have mastered the tactical element of NS. Both are equally important and non-exclusive. In the end I do believe that someone who has practiced something and mastered it should have an advantage over someone who hasnt.
While I advocate the removal of scripts, the inclusion of better default crosshairs and enforcing them through consistency, removing ambient sounds (or making them optional through the menu) and removing "stopsound" this doesnt mean I wont use and customise these things while it is allowed, but using an aspect of the game and wanting it to be removed is two separate matters, and I'd be happy if you acknowledged that.
Bottom line:
1) we're talking about blockscripts here, not ambient sounds or crosshairs
2) me using or customising these things have no bearing on my arguements validity
I personally asked over 15 foreign competitive players what key they use to bunny hop. Every player informed me they used the mouse wheel to bunny hop. About half of these players felt 3jump scripts were lame, the other half were neutral towards 3jump scripts. Of the players who felt 3jump scripts were lame, none could give me a valid explanation why the 3jump script was lamer than the using the mouse wheel.
I am going to assume all of them feel bunny hopping is a skillful element of Natural Selection.
This mite though:
<a href='http://www.urban75.com/Mag/java7.html' target='_blank'>http://www.urban75.com/Mag/java7.html</a>
mp_bs 0
<a href='http://img184.echo.cx/my.php?image=scripts6nu.jpg' target='_blank'>http://img184.echo.cx/my.php?image=scripts6nu.jpg</a>
mp_bs 1
<a href='http://img184.echo.cx/my.php?image=noscripts7ds.jpg' target='_blank'>http://img184.echo.cx/my.php?image=noscripts7ds.jpg</a>
First of all you supply no reason to why you have gathered this info, and you're not even attempting to do anything with it.
Second you take 15 players from a VERY wide and diverse group, without stating the method of collecting the samples. Are they even random? It's only 15 samples and we dont know if they've been chosen at random, hardly anything conclusive.
Your questions were obviously angled in such a way that one "side" was favoured, and you present the "results" in a throughoutly biased way.
It was obviously an attempt of discrediting those you are not agreeing with.
[Edit]Oh, and I only got 65 in that test, I missed like like 1/4 of the clicks because my pointer wavered around alot.
[Edit2]Got 71 on my second try.
First of all you supply no reason to why you have gathered this info, and you're not even attempting to do anything with it.
Second you take 15 players from a VERY wide and diverse group, without stating the method of collecting the samples. Are they even random? It's only 15 samples and we dont know if they've been chosen at random, hardly anything conclusive.
Your questions were obviously angled in such a way that one "side" was favoured, and you present the "results" in a throughoutly biased way.
It was obviously an attempt of discrediting those you are not agreeing with. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As explained in previous posts, much depends on what players consider a worth wild skill.
Players around the world are and always have used methods that remove the so called skill of timing jumps. Do you disagree that mwheel has replaced the jump script in bs 1 leagues? Because that is what the information concludes. Some leagues have adopted blockscripts because other methods have allowed the timing of jumps. I believe bs would NOT be enforced by ANY league if it disabled the use of mwheel.
While bs may prevent some scripts that are considered exploitive the MAIN impact is how it effects bunny hopping. And as I was trying to point out in my post, which you see as pointless, the worldwide competitive community has accepted that timing jumps should not be a major factor in determining the skill level of a player.
It is also woth noting that tfc and adrenaline gamer, both games which are extremely based on the skill envolved in bunny hopping, both <b>encourage</b> the use of methods to aid in the timing of jumps.
First of all you supply no reason to why you have gathered this info, and you're not even attempting to do anything with it.
Second you take 15 players from a VERY wide and diverse group, without stating the method of collecting the samples. Are they even random? It's only 15 samples and we dont know if they've been chosen at random, hardly anything conclusive.
Your questions were obviously angled in such a way that one "side" was favoured, and you present the "results" in a throughoutly biased way.
It was obviously an attempt of discrediting those you are not agreeing with. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As explained in previous posts, much depends on what players consider a worth wild skill.
Players around the world are and always have used methods that remove the so called skill of timing jumps. Do you disagree that mwheel has replaced the jump script in bs 1 leagues? Because that is what the information concludes. Some leagues have adopted blockscripts because other methods have allowed the timing of jumps. I believe bs would NOT be enforced by ANY league if it disabled the use of mwheel.
While bs may prevent some scripts that are considered exploitive the MAIN impact is how it effects bunny hopping. And as I was trying to point out in my post, which you see as pointless, the worldwide competitive community has accepted that timing jumps should not be a major factor in determining the skill level of a player. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your so-called information is very inaccurate and far from conclusive. That coupled with the lack of explaining your reason for taking the samples made the post very inflammatory.
I believe you are wrong about the main impact is on bhopping. Since you can still use mwheel the impact on bhopping is minimal.
You still need to realise that the useage of mwheel for bhopping purposes doesnt imply that the person in question feels mwheel is less "lame" than 3jump. In the example of europe, people like I use mwheel since it is allowed and not using it would land me at a disadvantage. This doesnt mean I think mwheel usage is preferrable to 3jump scripts. I believe both are as bad and I'd like to see them removed. Untill then though I will continue to use mwheel for jump timing since this is the most reliable method in europe considering the widespread use of bs_1.
So your little poll didnt really show anything at all in the end. You say that everyone failed at giving a valid explanation to why 3jump was worse than mwheel? Perhaps that is because there isnt any, and people use mwheel for the reason I stated in the above paragraph.
Regardless, it's all speculation just as your conclusions, since we really dont have any conclusive data to test our assumptions on.
Not any more than a 3jump script, maybe you need a better peice of hardware. In fact a mwheels has many advantaged over a scripts. An mwheel has a closer effect to a macro in the fact that it can be repeated continuesly without hindering other commands. An mwheel can send commands at the frame rate of the client.
The real disadvantage of using the mwheel is having to use your finger to jump. Many players become accustom to using the default mapped keys. Not everyone likes to change their system and rebind their keys as all the mwheel exploiters have.
Sheer brilliance in a line.
mp_blockmousewheel 1 YEAH!!
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I do find it ironic that an american was trying to argue with an english league official, and now its flipped and a swede is arguing with an american league official.
I have nothing against either side of the argument. But I am curious as to what other purpose mouse wheel can have? It is a legitemate input to the options screen, aswell as legitemately bound through console and config editing.
It serves no purpose changing weapons without a fast switch fix script, as mousewheel changing still requires the use of +attack, when hud_fastswitch 1 is used.
It could be used to flashlight or +use, to really annoy the hell out of people. Or perhaps +attack to get the most out of your blink, maybe if you want to make some kind of short animation you could bind it to snapshot.
I do know people who can bunnyhop on a single button, bound +jump only. But they don't use spacebar, as its a far too unpredicable key, it does sometimes miss the contacts when you press it.
There is however no reason to be proud of yourself for achieving something due to an extended code bound to your config.
Myself, due to damage to my hand, can not reach the pistol cap as I once could, that doesn't mean I will script it, I make do with my limitations, and will gain full function of my hand again through forcing myself to use it like I did before. (Although I do have +attack bound to a key near my left hand too).
This mite though:
<a href='http://www.urban75.com/Mag/java7.html' target='_blank'>http://www.urban75.com/Mag/java7.html</a>
mp_bs 0
<a href='http://img184.echo.cx/my.php?image=scripts6nu.jpg' target='_blank'>http://img184.echo.cx/my.php?image=scripts6nu.jpg</a>
mp_bs 1
<a href='http://img184.echo.cx/my.php?image=noscripts7ds.jpg' target='_blank'>http://img184.echo.cx/my.php?image=noscripts7ds.jpg</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
nice :>
As far as everyone playing on the same playing field, here:
bind space "+jump; wait; -jump; wait; +jump; wait; -jump; wait; +jump; wait; -jump"
Now that the big secret script has been revealed, everyone is on the same playing field. You don’t even have to download files (crosshairs, huds, fake ambients). It is hardly unethical or harmful to anyone. If a league defines a script as being legal everyone can use it; everyone is on the same playing field. It is not as though some players can’t 'afford' the scripts. ‘We define’ the field; any such arguments, made by anyone, is pointless.
You said it your self, current blockscripts has little effect on bhopping because of mwheel...but errhehhh wait...we have established that mwheel and 3jump should be clasified together, Tjosan has agreed (read the quotes). It is extreme hypocritical believe in blockscripts and believe in mousewheel, therefore timing jumps would be done by a single timed key.
That’s the bottom line-- Do you think the game would be more enjoyable, more competitive, and simply better if EVERY players were suddenly forced to time the jumps with a single key?
I do not.
You do.
This is where I leave it up to the players to decide.
Skulking would be totally redefined. The game style of Natural Selection as we know it would be redefined. There would be outrage. There would be a MAJOR drop in competitive play. YA YA YA that is all speculation but YOUR idea that removing an aided jump system would improve game play is a hell of a lot more speculated than mine.
I would have much rather seen a system such as quake style jumping, already included in many games. It would allow new players to naturally gain an understanding of bhopping instead of labeling it. Furthermore it would ‘not’ sever the skill separation between new players and extremely skilled players. The skill gap would remain but the new players would more ‘naturally’ reach the level of higher players. Instead we sink DEEPER, giving the easily influenced public communities a variable that mite as well be known as mp_blockallthingsbad. Players today are accused of scripts on ‘blocked’ server more than they ever were because mp_bs existed. Given that I believe aided jump timing IMPROVES gameplay removing the wigglewalk script is hardly worth the downfalls. I refuse to support a system that is moving in the wrong direction and separating the community at the same time.
Nvm, I cant be bothered with this anymore.