<!--QuoteBegin-puzl+May 3 2005, 09:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl @ May 3 2005, 09:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My K/D ratio improved a lot when I started using scripts. They do provide an advantage and all the pointless comparisons in the world won't change that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What scripts have you been using?
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited May 2005
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> alias +_blink "slot2" alias -_blink "slot1"
alias +_leap "slot3" alias -_leap "slot1"
alias m2next_blink "bind mouse2 +_blink; alias m2next m2next_leap;" alias m2next_leap "bind mouse2 +_leap; alias m2next m2next_jump;" alias m2next_jump "bind mouse2 +jump; alias m2next m2next_blink;" alias m2next m2next_blink bind . m2next bind mouse2 +jump
This applies the principal of a <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_mnemonic' target='_blank'>mnemonic keyboard</a>. Slightly more complicated key sequences are much more efficient if your fingers never have to change keys.
I can tap left and right mouse in simple sequences to control exactly when I swipe. Leap is even easier. Right click to leap, left click to bite. Metabolism and parasite confuse the issue, but not that much.
I'm not a very good NS player and these scripts haven't made me a great player but they have made me a better player. Maybe the return on investment is reduced the further along the skill curve you go, but it is an outright lie to claim that scripts can't make a player better.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->CAL allows scripting, which is primarily a North American Leauge. Ive heard that European clans/leagues prefer to not allow the use of scripts. I myself use several scripts (check the "Share your Scripts" thread, in the scripting forum), which have by far been extreamly usefull in competitive NS. What are your thoughts on this subject? Should leagues take away the ability to script for a vanilla NS, or should they allow complete control on the user end<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This question differs from the general scripting debate in that (obviously) it is only asking about competitive players. A popular argument against scripts is that a player should not need to know about things outside of the game in order to play the game properly. This argument is weaker when applied to competitive players, as they are more dedicated to the game, and more likely to seek out such knowledge. Competitive players already spend much time tweaking configs and changing crosshairs and such, and it would not take much more time to use scripts. In addition, as competitive players are in clans, they do not even need to figure things out themselves--they just need one teammate who can figure things out for the whole clan.
On to the other, more general arguments, that still apply slightly differently to clanning:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The essential point of my post was clear? If scripts don't give an advantage as so many claim, why can't people play without them?
Also I'll just type it incase I'm obviously not clear enough in my posts. I prefer bs_1 tournaments. It would just keep everyone happy, because you can play just as well without them yes? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have not followed many scripting debates in the ns.com forums, as they are generally full of so much drivel, so I am sure the points I am about to make have been made hundreds of times, but they are so clear to me that I cannot see how the above argument can still be made in earnest.
Here are some claims to try out for size: "If using non-default key-bindings doesn't give an advantage as so many claim, why can't people play without them?" "If custom crosshairs don't give an advantage as so many claim, why can't people play without them?" "If disabling music..." "If labeled minimaps..." "If tweaking net settings (cl_updaterate/cl_cmdrate/ex_interp/ex_extrapmax)..." "If disabling mouse acceleration..." "If disabling vsync/fixing winxp refresh rate..."
All of these things are nice. All are unanimously accepted by the community as legitimate adjustments to your game for competitive play. All are done in the hope of gaining an advantage. All require knowledge external to straight gameplay to implement. None can be done through the in-game menu.
People will customize things to what they think suits them. I have been using mouse2 to jump since 1998. I <i>like</i> using my mouse button to jump. My mousewheel is rather stiff, and is not appropriate for bunny hopping or pistol-firing. Should I be forced to research which mice have loose wheels, go out and spend money on such a mouse, and then use a different config?
So many of these external tweaks are widely implemented in the competitive community. Why do scripts stand out from the rest?
So, in summary: clan players already tweak the hell out of their game, so what are a few scripts?
The obvious counter to that is "well what is an aimbot but another tweak?"
I am operating under the assumption that the two main scripts both used by pro-scripters and complained about by anti-scripters are 3jump and pistol script. Both merely repeat a command. Anti-scripters generally achieve the same effect via the mouse wheel. If anyone has concerns about any other scripts, please bring them up.
Let us consider some scenarios:
I do not have a mouse wheel. Clearly a person with a mouse wheel has an advantage over me.
I get a mouse, and it has a rather loose wheel, so that I can turn it quickly with ease. I'm sort of tired of having to turn the mouse so much, so I make my own mouse where I can nudge the wheel a bit and it is loose enough to turn a few times on its own.
That is too inaccurate for me, as it often turns too much, and stops me from issuing other commands. I add a locking mechanism to the wheel so that it turns exactly three times.
I still don't like having to nudge the wheel in that direction, so I add a button to my mouse that moves a lever that pushes the wheel for me.
I want to jump from the keyboard, so I write some software that allows me to bind a key in windows to send a signal to my mouse to trigger the lever to spin the wheel.
That might be considered third-party software, so I instead have it send an RF signal directly to the lever trigger.
I don't like having the weight on my mouse, so I move the lever-wheel contraption off the mouse and to a separate place on my desk.
Where exactly is the line drawn? Is the cutoff exactly where you no longer have to physically apply force for each individual wheel-click? I have used (rather annoying) mice where the wheel would turn an extra time or two after I stopped. Should such a mouse be illegal? I don't see how one can be against scripts (which tend to manifest in high-level NS mostly as the automated repeating of commands) but think the mouse wheel is A-OK.
My opinion is that since 3jump and pistol scripts basically perform the same function as a common piece of hardware, they are okay.
I don't really see any way (or reason, for that matter) to defend such things as leap/bite or blink/swipe, except to say that they suck and competitive players don't use them. Scripts that do things like this that isn't easily replicable via hardware are rather more shady. Unfortunately, "replicability by hardware" isn't a defining criterion, as most people consider things like "request a med and say_team med" or "scores + netgraph bind" to be perfectly harmless, but these cannot be done with hardware. I do not know what condition one would use to judge these, but they seem to be much less controversial, so I won't bother with them <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-puzl+May 3 2005, 08:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl @ May 3 2005, 08:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My K/D ratio improved a lot when I started using scripts. They do provide an advantage and all the pointless comparisons in the world won't change that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But the question is: do they provide enough of an advantage to worry about? The answer is[ no.
As an example, pit someone from Exigent vs. someone who has not played cometitively, but who is still reasonably familiar with NS. Make the Exigent player a skulk, and the new player a marine.
<u>Scenario 1</u>: default configs, only changeable through the GUI. (ie: hud_fastswitch, movement keys, etc.)
Winner: The skulk from Exigent. Simply put, the skulk will outclass the marine skill-wise and take the marine down.
<u>Scenario 2</u>: Give the marine an advanced config file with several scripts like pistol doubleshot, crouchjump and so on.
Winner: Still the skulk from Exigent. Even though the marine is able to crouchjump perfectly and fire his pistol faster, it still wouldn't help him if the Exi skulk came flying around a corner at 500 units per second and was all over him in an instant.
<u>Scenario 3</u>: Give the marine spiked models and sounds.
The winner for this is up in the air. Having some idea of where a skulk is before you normally would <i>could</i> let you kill it; especially if the skulk tried an ambushing tactic. On the other hand, if the skulk snuck up on the marine from behind, or simply moved to fast for the marine to track him, then the fight would still probably go to the skulk.
<u>Scenario 4</u>: Give the marine an aimbot and a wallhack.
Winner: The marine. If the marine knew exactly where the skulk was and had perfect aim, the skulk would die +99% of the time.
alias m2next_blink "bind mouse2 +_blink; alias m2next m2next_leap;" alias m2next_leap "bind mouse2 +_leap; alias m2next m2next_jump;" alias m2next_jump "bind mouse2 +jump; alias m2next m2next_blink;" alias m2next m2next_blink bind . m2next bind mouse2 +jump
This applies the principal of a <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_mnemonic' target='_blank'>mnemonic keyboard</a>. Slightly more complicated key sequences are much more efficient if your fingers never have to change keys.
I can tap left and right mouse in simple sequences to control exactly when I swipe. Leap is even easier. Right click to leap, left click to bite. Metabolism and parasite confuse the issue, but not that much.
I'm not a very good NS player and these scripts haven't made me a great player but they have made me a better player. Maybe the return on investment is reduced the further along the skill curve you go, but it is an outright lie to claim that scripts can't make a player better. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So you used scripts to fit your playstyle better hence providing more control to your game. Nothing at all wrong with that. Of course giving you greater ability to control the game the way you want will make you a better player. What's wrong with that? It's all a matter of preference, I know your scripts would hamper my fading.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But the question is: do they provide enough of an advantage to worry about? The answer is no. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you've moved the argument from something that can be instrumented ( K/D ratio, mean time between deaths etc ) into something totally intangible. Would it not be for each player to define what is worth worrying about?
So your answer might be no, but I'm sure there are lots of people educated in the ways of scripting who would disagree with you.
And comparing a beginning player to a delta player is pointless. Compare two delta players of equal skill if you want any meaningful comparisons.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited May 2005
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So you used scripts to fit your playstyle better hence providing more control to your game. Nothing at all wrong with that. Of course giving you greater ability to control the game the way you want will make you a better player. What's wrong with that? It's all a matter of preference, I know your scripts would hamper my fading. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said there was anything wrong with it or right with it. I'm simply stating that scripts can make a difference to a player's game effectiveness. Any pro-script argument you present that tries to state otherwise is going to do nothing but undermine your case.
alias m2next_blink "bind mouse2 +_blink; alias m2next m2next_leap;" alias m2next_leap "bind mouse2 +_leap; alias m2next m2next_jump;" alias m2next_jump "bind mouse2 +jump; alias m2next m2next_blink;" alias m2next m2next_blink bind . m2next bind mouse2 +jump
This applies the principal of a <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_mnemonic' target='_blank'>mnemonic keyboard</a>. Slightly more complicated key sequences are much more efficient if your fingers never have to change keys.
I can tap left and right mouse in simple sequences to control exactly when I swipe. Leap is even easier. Right click to leap, left click to bite. Metabolism and parasite confuse the issue, but not that much.
I'm not a very good NS player and these scripts haven't made me a great player but they have made me a better player. Maybe the return on investment is reduced the further along the skill curve you go, but it is an outright lie to claim that scripts can't make a player better. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Which keys were you using for blink/leap/bite previously?
I don't think competitive players believe that scripts <i>can't</i> make a player better, it's just that we tend to think they don't have that much effect at high levels.
No one sane would argue that a new skulk would do better with trying to use 1/3 to leap then bite than he would with a leap/bite script. I'm sure everyone believed Voogru when he said he got a leap/bite script and magically tripled his score <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
Along the same lines as your post, some time ago I changed my leap/blink and bite/swipe keys from 3 and 1 to e and q. I, too, saw a decent improvement in my ability to perform the appropriate actions, making me a better player. Obviously, me changing my binds is considered okay. The clan I am in had a player who, until recently, used the arrow keys for movement and couldn't bring up the minimap or talk on ventrilo without taking his hand off his movement keys.
The whole scripting debate has become, as tends to happen with most controversial points, rather convoluted.
You made a strong point that scripts can, indeed, improve one's gameplay. This is a point often made by anti-scripters (though I realize that, in your case, you are probably just pointing out a flaw in one side's claims, and not necessarily choosing sides). It is not clear to me whether this point is supposed to stand on its own as an argument against scripting (in which case, it holds no water, as I discussed in my previous post), or (more likely) this orginated solely as a counter-argument against the pro-scripters' obvious claim "this whole debate is irrelevant anyway since scripts aren't that useful".
That makes this post a rebuttal to a possibly imagined argument, and entirely worthless in the case that your post is just countering a counter-argument, rather than supporting an initial argument.
Of course, all posts in this thread are rather worthless anyway, as scripting is a religious issue. I just like writing long posts that everyone will skip over.
As for puzl's post, I think it's very intresting although I feel you're missing the point coris?
If you've ever used a script that selects leap+then leaps for you and automatically switches to bite ready for your next click then you'll know how easy it is compared to the 'normal' way.
puzl's point is that scripts have improved his performance ingame because he's been able to minimise keyboard operations. THEREFORE if bs_1 was on his performance would decrease.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited May 2005
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Which keys were you using for blink/leap/bite previously? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Default keys. The only non default keys I use other than the above scripts are a swap of crouch and walk ( it is easier to hold shift than ctrl ).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think competitive players believe that scripts can't make a player better, it's just that we tend to think they don't have that much effect at high levels. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The way I see it is that you think the removal of them makes a huge difference at high levels. I.e. a player who has developed their skill with scripts will be crippled if they are forcibly removed. But yeah, as I stated earlier, perhaps the return on investment diminishes as you move up the skill curve and that may account for the descrepency in the advantage I percieve versus what you percieve.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The whole scripting debate has become, as tends to happen with most controversial points, rather convoluted. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's convoluted into a mobius strip at this stage <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That makes this post a rebuttal to a possibly imagined argument, and entirely worthless in the case that your post is just countering a counter-argument, rather than supporting an initial argument. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Imagined or not, I continually see the "scripts don't provide an advantage" argument put forward and my experience tells me this isn't true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Of course, all posts in this thread are rather worthless anyway, as scripting is a religious issue. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a devout athiest on most religous issues <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> puzl's point is that scripts have improved his performance ingame because he's been able to minimise keyboard operations. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm stating this without stating whether I think scripts should be allowed in tournaments.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> THEREFORE if bs_1 was on his performance would decrease. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would be true if the scripts I have posted were blocked by setting mp_blockscripts to 1.
<!--QuoteBegin-puzl+May 3 2005, 09:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl @ May 3 2005, 09:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My K/D ratio improved a lot when I started using scripts. They do provide an advantage and all the pointless comparisons in the world won't change that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> My K/D ratio improved alot when I got more than 30 FPS on average. It will probably improve even more once I get 100+ steady. I'm sure I would do significantly worse on mp_makeyourfpssuck 1 servers too.
Its a tired rephrasing of the question you've been refusing to answer - how is a script, especially with its hardly tangible usefulness compared to all the other tweaks, different at all ?
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2005
I believe you are missing puzl's point here, which was <b>purely</b> a response to the "scripts does not give you an advantage" statements:
It is not true to claim that a script can not improve a player's performance.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And comparing a beginning player to a delta player is pointless. Compare two delta players of equal skill if you want any meaningful comparisons.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually to be even more blatent, compare 2 pub players both having exactly the same experience and skill.
The trouble with using Delta players as an example is they would both be of such high skill that the scripts are secondary...
I can reach the ROF cap of the pistol, but not consistantly. I know several times I have died when I would have lived had I not messed my pistoling up, and several times the opposite has happened.
Now, me using a pistol script would make my play more consistant, since it would remove the aspect of me sometime screwing up because I'm not performing well enough at that moment. Imo this is not even a "slight" advantage. It is using a script to cover up my flaws as a player.
I thought the competetive players in general were in favour of encouraging a situation where personal skill and performance was the key in who won or lost, and who killed who. In this example of me using a pistol script, suddenly my skill as a marine using the pistol makes much less difference.
This is the main reason why I think bs_1 tournaments are favourable to bs_0. Skill matters more. It might not be much more, or very apparant, but it's still there.
obuhNot Quite Smart at NSJoin Date: 2003-03-31Member: 15072Members, Constellation
edited May 2005
I kind of agree that the pistol script is a distinct advantage. The only 2 scripts I use that are blocked are +3jump for aliens and a duckjump script as marine. I can quickly alter my config to adapt the current value of mp_blockscripts by the press of a key. So when I play on blockscripts enabled server, I just spin my mousewheel instead of using +3jump. It doesn't change much, except I tend to occasionally mess up my jump timing and go slower when using the mousewheel.
It irks me is that +3jump is still blocked by our favourite server variable. Adding a built in command to the game that would do that has been suggested several times, but seems to have remained overlooked so far. I think this would greatly <i>'level the playing field'</i>, as a player wanting to bhop without using the mousewheel wouldn't need to have to look outside of the game to find a jump script, which was one of the reasons of the introduction of bs in the first place if I'm not mistaken ? Leveling the playing field hmm. So is there a reason not to do this ? I'd be interested to know.
As for the question of allowing the use of scripts in tournaments, it is up to the majority of the target audience to decide. Here in good old Europe, people seem to prefer to do it the old way, prohibiting those evil things they heard bad things about !
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+May 3 2005, 10:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ May 3 2005, 10:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I thought the competetive players in general were in favour of encouraging a situation where personal skill and performance was the key in who won or lost, and who killed who. In this example of me using a pistol script, suddenly my skill as a marine using the pistol makes much less difference.
This is the main reason why I think bs_1 tournaments are favourable to bs_0. Skill matters more. It might not be much more, or very apparant, but it's still there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why, then, should custom crosshairs, disabling music, and tweaking net variables be allowed? Everyone does these things because they think they will help their gameplay. They are things that affect gameplay that are not purely based on skill. Why are scripts singled out?
As a totally separate point, on the list of "things I want to be important in my favorite game", some items that do not rank very high are: the ability to click a mouse button 10 times in a second, the will to replace one's mouse with some frequency, or the ability to locate a mouse with a sufficiently loose wheel.
I think it's dishonest to say that a script doesn't help a player. Of course I can see reasons why people (myself included) have done this: because compared to the advantage pubbers have percieved in their head, the advantage scripts give is so tiny.
The bottom line is that scripts get unfairly singled out as 'helping a players ability with out of game tweaks,' when there are like 50 other ways to help your game by doing things outside of NS. People who argue that you shouldn't be able to get better outside of the game, or configure anything beyond the default menu, are deluded. You need some level of customization... I mean I know I probably would've quit NS if I was forced to play with the default crosshairs (*shudder*).
I also think that the ultimate hypocrisy in this is that so many pubs have blockscripts on while consistency is left off. It's just an absolute joke. 3jump isn't okay, but spiked, pink models are. I mean at this point for many I don't think it's even about getting blockscript disabled on all pubs, it's about making people use their brains. It's sad to see an entire community so overwhelmingly blinded by ridiculous stereotypes. Although this is getting better, it's not near fast enough...
We're discussing block scripts now. But if you want to get on some other things as well, stuff on my "list" definately are: including mwheel bound to any + command in blockscripts, better default crosshairs (BIG ONE), sensible default rates (both server and client), a way of removing CC block and predropping rts, requiring low ambient sound levels on official maps and blocking the stopsound command as well as a couple more I cant really remember (I actually do have a list somewhere).
Of course, there are working alternatives to the stuff I wrote, such as including quake-style jumping which would remove the need for any sort of bind/script to do it well. Those are design decisions though, and all I've listed up there are stuff I want changed but where the result wouldnt go against current design goals (as I percieve them).
But as I started out by saying, this topic is about bs_0/bs_1 tournaments and by extension blockscripts itself, not about anything of the above.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+May 3 2005, 11:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ May 3 2005, 11:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We're discussing block scripts now. But if you want to get on some other things as well, stuff on my "list" definately are: including mwheel bound to any + command in blockscripts, better default crosshairs (BIG ONE), sensible default rates (both server and client), a way of removing CC block and predropping rts, requiring low ambient sound levels on official maps and blocking the stopsound command as well as a couple more I cant really remember (I actually do have a list somewhere).
Of course, there are working alternatives to the stuff I wrote, such as including quake-style jumping which would remove the need for any sort of bind/script to do it well. Those are design decisions though, and all I've listed up there are stuff I want changed but where the result wouldnt go against current design goals (as I percieve them).
But as I started out by saying, this topic is about bs_0/bs_1 tournaments and by extension blockscripts itself, not about anything of the above. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I am not trying to make the discussion about these other things. I am merely listing things that are widely implemented and considered legit by competive players, and using them to make a point.
Your response seems to be that these things should be given reasonable defaults in the mod. Presumably you would still allow people to change them, though. In addition, the fact that their current poor state has led all competetive players to change them has not induced any sort of controversy.
There seems to be something special about scripting. How is deciding one wants a different crosshair different from deciding one wants to bhop with the spacebar instead of the mousewheel? You are certainly allowed to believe script-users make the game worse; I am just trying to figure out what your argument against scripts is that does not apply to all these other things, so that I might actually evaluate it.
Many of the posts in this thread seem to start from one position or the other, and then invent arguments to support the position, rather than have positions based on logical arguments. While this situation is certainly not unique to this subject, I would rather like to try to make an exception of this thread and have some actual logical arguments to discuss.
I'll go out on a limb and actually try to answer that >_> (it's a good point you're making).
I think it all boils down to skill in the end.
With the default crosshairs you really cant see what you're aiming at, but with a small white cross (for example), suddenly minute differences in abilities to aim are seen since the players shooting can now actually see what they're trying to shoot. Better crosshairs makes the skill aiming more important.
Rates (in laymans terms) make more of your bullets register, and make what you see more like what's actually happening. With good rates suddenly a random element is removed and how the player aims and moves have a larger impact.
Ambient sounds masks footsteps, and reduces the benifits of knowing how to move silently and when. Remove the ambient sound and suddenly the player attacking you cant just run at you, he/she will probably need to sneak up on you or already be in place to ambush. This (imo) adds to the game as a player adept in moving well or ambushing is awarded with a slight advantage.
Scripts (and jump bound to mwheel) remove the benifit of being able to click quickly while still being able to aim with the pistol, it enable you to somewhat reduce the disadvantage you have if you're not able to wigglewaggle, it suddenly give you the ability to time jumps almost perfectly, while without that ability someone who had practiced and could do it somewhat well would have an advantage over you (if you havent practiced/isnt able to).
So what's my point? Awarding people who can do things better than others. Yes, clicking attack repeatedly IS a skill. Blinding someone with a huge and vividly coloured crosshair makes that persons ability to do minute adjustments in aim less useful.
Of course, on the other hand we have the arguement of hardware. One could argue that someone with worse hardware would be at a disadvantage when it comes to jump timing if scripts/mwheel couldnt be used, and yes I guess that'd be correct. The question then would be what is most important, pleasing the minority whos system is old enough they cant run HL properly, or awarding people who have put alot of practice into the game.
Visual perception is a skill too, if you want to argue that. I can at lowres see through the default crosshair and aim the same way I do normally - its not a problem, because 4 years of playing a game where that was one of the biggest deals was visually perceiving accurately has more than prepared me. So much it took me forever to bother switching crosshairs just for the comfort.
<b>However</b>, everything you can come up with is a skill. Playing piano with your Pen-15, clicking your mouse repeatedly, spending 16 hours a days leveling a character or sorting your socks by color - they're all skills. But they're not things you look for in an intelligent and fun game. At least most of us don't. We don't want to see whose better at idiotic and boring tasks, or we'd be auditioning for Americas Next Top Model right now - we want to see whose smarter, faster, better at aiming, positioning, movement and awareness.
We want to see whose better when we discount as much of the discomfort of using clumsy controls we can. I don't for example want to see if I'm better at weaponswitching than Franky 4 Fingers - because I'm pretty flipping sure I am. I want to see which of the two of us is the better NSPlayer.
Could I just point out that if you'd read my post on page 5 instead of just accusing me of flaming I also mention that there are other ways of making the game 'easier' and that scripting isn't the only one.
I think this is a good discussion and should definitely be continued because we're getting somewhere.
I am in no way saying that changing sounds etc. are acceptable and scripting isn't. I don't like any of it.
I want a game where people are all playing on the same level and using the options afforded to us by the designers.
Then there would be no need for bs_x or even this topic <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
What scripts have you been using?
alias +_blink "slot2"
alias -_blink "slot1"
alias +_leap "slot3"
alias -_leap "slot1"
alias m2next_blink "bind mouse2 +_blink; alias m2next m2next_leap;"
alias m2next_leap "bind mouse2 +_leap; alias m2next m2next_jump;"
alias m2next_jump "bind mouse2 +jump; alias m2next m2next_blink;"
alias m2next m2next_blink
bind . m2next
bind mouse2 +jump
bind mwheeldown +jump
bind mwheelup +jump
bind space +jump
bind mouse4 +popupmenu
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This applies the principal of a <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_mnemonic' target='_blank'>mnemonic keyboard</a>. Slightly more complicated key sequences are much more efficient if your fingers never have to change keys.
I can tap left and right mouse in simple sequences to control exactly when I swipe. Leap is even easier. Right click to leap, left click to bite. Metabolism and parasite confuse the issue, but not that much.
I'm not a very good NS player and these scripts haven't made me a great player but they have made me a better player. Maybe the return on investment is reduced the further along the skill curve you go, but it is an outright lie to claim that scripts can't make a player better.
This question differs from the general scripting debate in that (obviously) it is only asking about competitive players. A popular argument against scripts is that a player should not need to know about things outside of the game in order to play the game properly. This argument is weaker when applied to competitive players, as they are more dedicated to the game, and more likely to seek out such knowledge. Competitive players already spend much time tweaking configs and changing crosshairs and such, and it would not take much more time to use scripts. In addition, as competitive players are in clans, they do not even need to figure things out themselves--they just need one teammate who can figure things out for the whole clan.
On to the other, more general arguments, that still apply slightly differently to clanning:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The essential point of my post was clear? If scripts don't give an advantage as so many claim, why can't people play without them?
Also I'll just type it incase I'm obviously not clear enough in my posts. I prefer bs_1 tournaments. It would just keep everyone happy, because you can play just as well without them yes? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have not followed many scripting debates in the ns.com forums, as they are generally full of so much drivel, so I am sure the points I am about to make have been made hundreds of times, but they are so clear to me that I cannot see how the above argument can still be made in earnest.
Here are some claims to try out for size:
"If using non-default key-bindings doesn't give an advantage as so many claim, why can't people play without them?"
"If custom crosshairs don't give an advantage as so many claim, why can't people play without them?"
"If disabling music..."
"If labeled minimaps..."
"If tweaking net settings (cl_updaterate/cl_cmdrate/ex_interp/ex_extrapmax)..."
"If disabling mouse acceleration..."
"If disabling vsync/fixing winxp refresh rate..."
All of these things are nice. All are unanimously accepted by the community as legitimate adjustments to your game for competitive play. All are done in the hope of gaining an advantage. All require knowledge external to straight gameplay to implement. None can be done through the in-game menu.
People will customize things to what they think suits them. I have been using mouse2 to jump since 1998. I <i>like</i> using my mouse button to jump. My mousewheel is rather stiff, and is not appropriate for bunny hopping or pistol-firing. Should I be forced to research which mice have loose wheels, go out and spend money on such a mouse, and then use a different config?
So many of these external tweaks are widely implemented in the competitive community. Why do scripts stand out from the rest?
So, in summary: clan players already tweak the hell out of their game, so what are a few scripts?
The obvious counter to that is "well what is an aimbot but another tweak?"
I am operating under the assumption that the two main scripts both used by pro-scripters and complained about by anti-scripters are 3jump and pistol script. Both merely repeat a command. Anti-scripters generally achieve the same effect via the mouse wheel. If anyone has concerns about any other scripts, please bring them up.
Let us consider some scenarios:
I do not have a mouse wheel. Clearly a person with a mouse wheel has an advantage over me.
I get a mouse, and it has a rather loose wheel, so that I can turn it quickly with ease.
I'm sort of tired of having to turn the mouse so much, so I make my own mouse where I can nudge the wheel a bit and it is loose enough to turn a few times on its own.
That is too inaccurate for me, as it often turns too much, and stops me from issuing other commands. I add a locking mechanism to the wheel so that it turns exactly three times.
I still don't like having to nudge the wheel in that direction, so I add a button to my mouse that moves a lever that pushes the wheel for me.
I want to jump from the keyboard, so I write some software that allows me to bind a key in windows to send a signal to my mouse to trigger the lever to spin the wheel.
That might be considered third-party software, so I instead have it send an RF signal directly to the lever trigger.
I don't like having the weight on my mouse, so I move the lever-wheel contraption off the mouse and to a separate place on my desk.
Where exactly is the line drawn? Is the cutoff exactly where you no longer have to physically apply force for each individual wheel-click? I have used (rather annoying) mice where the wheel would turn an extra time or two after I stopped. Should such a mouse be illegal? I don't see how one can be against scripts (which tend to manifest in high-level NS mostly as the automated repeating of commands) but think the mouse wheel is A-OK.
My opinion is that since 3jump and pistol scripts basically perform the same function as a common piece of hardware, they are okay.
I don't really see any way (or reason, for that matter) to defend such things as leap/bite or blink/swipe, except to say that they suck and competitive players don't use them. Scripts that do things like this that isn't easily replicable via hardware are rather more shady. Unfortunately, "replicability by hardware" isn't a defining criterion, as most people consider things like "request a med and say_team med" or "scores + netgraph bind" to be perfectly harmless, but these cannot be done with hardware. I do not know what condition one would use to judge these, but they seem to be much less controversial, so I won't bother with them <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But the question is: do they provide enough of an advantage to worry about? The answer is[ no.
As an example, pit someone from Exigent vs. someone who has not played cometitively, but who is still reasonably familiar with NS. Make the Exigent player a skulk, and the new player a marine.
<u>Scenario 1</u>: default configs, only changeable through the GUI. (ie: hud_fastswitch, movement keys, etc.)
Winner: The skulk from Exigent. Simply put, the skulk will outclass the marine skill-wise and take the marine down.
<u>Scenario 2</u>: Give the marine an advanced config file with several scripts like pistol doubleshot, crouchjump and so on.
Winner: Still the skulk from Exigent. Even though the marine is able to crouchjump perfectly and fire his pistol faster, it still wouldn't help him if the Exi skulk came flying around a corner at 500 units per second and was all over him in an instant.
<u>Scenario 3</u>: Give the marine spiked models and sounds.
The winner for this is up in the air. Having some idea of where a skulk is before you normally would <i>could</i> let you kill it; especially if the skulk tried an ambushing tactic. On the other hand, if the skulk snuck up on the marine from behind, or simply moved to fast for the marine to track him, then the fight would still probably go to the skulk.
<u>Scenario 4</u>: Give the marine an aimbot and a wallhack.
Winner: The marine. If the marine knew exactly where the skulk was and had perfect aim, the skulk would die +99% of the time.
alias +_blink "slot2"
alias -_blink "slot1"
alias +_leap "slot3"
alias -_leap "slot1"
alias m2next_blink "bind mouse2 +_blink; alias m2next m2next_leap;"
alias m2next_leap "bind mouse2 +_leap; alias m2next m2next_jump;"
alias m2next_jump "bind mouse2 +jump; alias m2next m2next_blink;"
alias m2next m2next_blink
bind . m2next
bind mouse2 +jump
bind mwheeldown +jump
bind mwheelup +jump
bind space +jump
bind mouse4 +popupmenu
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This applies the principal of a <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_mnemonic' target='_blank'>mnemonic keyboard</a>. Slightly more complicated key sequences are much more efficient if your fingers never have to change keys.
I can tap left and right mouse in simple sequences to control exactly when I swipe. Leap is even easier. Right click to leap, left click to bite. Metabolism and parasite confuse the issue, but not that much.
I'm not a very good NS player and these scripts haven't made me a great player but they have made me a better player. Maybe the return on investment is reduced the further along the skill curve you go, but it is an outright lie to claim that scripts can't make a player better. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you used scripts to fit your playstyle better hence providing more control to your game. Nothing at all wrong with that. Of course giving you greater ability to control the game the way you want will make you a better player. What's wrong with that? It's all a matter of preference, I know your scripts would hamper my fading.
But the question is: do they provide enough of an advantage to worry about? The answer is no.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you've moved the argument from something that can be instrumented ( K/D ratio, mean time between deaths etc ) into something totally intangible. Would it not be for each player to define what is worth worrying about?
So your answer might be no, but I'm sure there are lots of people educated in the ways of scripting who would disagree with you.
And comparing a beginning player to a delta player is pointless. Compare two delta players of equal skill if you want any meaningful comparisons.
So you used scripts to fit your playstyle better hence providing more control to your game. Nothing at all wrong with that. Of course giving you greater ability to control the game the way you want will make you a better player. What's wrong with that? It's all a matter of preference, I know your scripts would hamper my fading.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said there was anything wrong with it or right with it. I'm simply stating that scripts can make a difference to a player's game effectiveness. Any pro-script argument you present that tries to state otherwise is going to do nothing but undermine your case.
alias +_blink "slot2"
alias -_blink "slot1"
alias +_leap "slot3"
alias -_leap "slot1"
alias m2next_blink "bind mouse2 +_blink; alias m2next m2next_leap;"
alias m2next_leap "bind mouse2 +_leap; alias m2next m2next_jump;"
alias m2next_jump "bind mouse2 +jump; alias m2next m2next_blink;"
alias m2next m2next_blink
bind . m2next
bind mouse2 +jump
bind mwheeldown +jump
bind mwheelup +jump
bind space +jump
bind mouse4 +popupmenu
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This applies the principal of a <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_mnemonic' target='_blank'>mnemonic keyboard</a>. Slightly more complicated key sequences are much more efficient if your fingers never have to change keys.
I can tap left and right mouse in simple sequences to control exactly when I swipe. Leap is even easier. Right click to leap, left click to bite. Metabolism and parasite confuse the issue, but not that much.
I'm not a very good NS player and these scripts haven't made me a great player but they have made me a better player. Maybe the return on investment is reduced the further along the skill curve you go, but it is an outright lie to claim that scripts can't make a player better. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which keys were you using for blink/leap/bite previously?
I don't think competitive players believe that scripts <i>can't</i> make a player better, it's just that we tend to think they don't have that much effect at high levels.
No one sane would argue that a new skulk would do better with trying to use 1/3 to leap then bite than he would with a leap/bite script. I'm sure everyone believed Voogru when he said he got a leap/bite script and magically tripled his score <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
Along the same lines as your post, some time ago I changed my leap/blink and bite/swipe keys from 3 and 1 to e and q. I, too, saw a decent improvement in my ability to perform the appropriate actions, making me a better player. Obviously, me changing my binds is considered okay. The clan I am in had a player who, until recently, used the arrow keys for movement and couldn't bring up the minimap or talk on ventrilo without taking his hand off his movement keys.
The whole scripting debate has become, as tends to happen with most controversial points, rather convoluted.
You made a strong point that scripts can, indeed, improve one's gameplay. This is a point often made by anti-scripters (though I realize that, in your case, you are probably just pointing out a flaw in one side's claims, and not necessarily choosing sides). It is not clear to me whether this point is supposed to stand on its own as an argument against scripting (in which case, it holds no water, as I discussed in my previous post), or (more likely) this orginated solely as a counter-argument against the pro-scripters' obvious claim "this whole debate is irrelevant anyway since scripts aren't that useful".
That makes this post a rebuttal to a possibly imagined argument, and entirely worthless in the case that your post is just countering a counter-argument, rather than supporting an initial argument.
Of course, all posts in this thread are rather worthless anyway, as scripting is a religious issue. I just like writing long posts that everyone will skip over.
As for puzl's post, I think it's very intresting although I feel you're missing the point coris?
If you've ever used a script that selects leap+then leaps for you and automatically switches to bite ready for your next click then you'll know how easy it is compared to the 'normal' way.
puzl's point is that scripts have improved his performance ingame because he's been able to minimise keyboard operations. THEREFORE if bs_1 was on his performance would decrease.
Which keys were you using for blink/leap/bite previously?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Default keys. The only non default keys I use other than the above scripts are a swap of crouch and walk ( it is easier to hold shift than ctrl ).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I don't think competitive players believe that scripts can't make a player better, it's just that we tend to think they don't have that much effect at high levels.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The way I see it is that you think the removal of them makes a huge difference at high levels. I.e. a player who has developed their skill with scripts will be crippled if they are forcibly removed. But yeah, as I stated earlier, perhaps the return on investment diminishes as you move up the skill curve and that may account for the descrepency in the advantage I percieve versus what you percieve.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The whole scripting debate has become, as tends to happen with most controversial points, rather convoluted.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's convoluted into a mobius strip at this stage <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
That makes this post a rebuttal to a possibly imagined argument, and entirely worthless in the case that your post is just countering a counter-argument, rather than supporting an initial argument.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Imagined or not, I continually see the "scripts don't provide an advantage" argument put forward and my experience tells me this isn't true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Of course, all posts in this thread are rather worthless anyway, as scripting is a religious issue.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a devout athiest on most religous issues <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
puzl's point is that scripts have improved his performance ingame because he's been able to minimise keyboard operations.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm stating this without stating whether I think scripts should be allowed in tournaments.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
THEREFORE if bs_1 was on his performance would decrease.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would be true if the scripts I have posted were blocked by setting mp_blockscripts to 1.
My K/D ratio improved alot when I got more than 30 FPS on average. It will probably improve even more once I get 100+ steady. I'm sure I would do significantly worse on mp_makeyourfpssuck 1 servers too.
I'm not sure what this statement brings to the discussion.
It is not true to claim that a script can not improve a player's performance.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And comparing a beginning player to a delta player is pointless. Compare two delta players of equal skill if you want any meaningful comparisons.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually to be even more blatent, compare 2 pub players both having exactly the same experience and skill.
The trouble with using Delta players as an example is they would both be of such high skill that the scripts are secondary...
Wait, I think I'll just go watch some real bumfight videos instead of arguing about it on the internet.
Now, me using a pistol script would make my play more consistant, since it would remove the aspect of me sometime screwing up because I'm not performing well enough at that moment. Imo this is not even a "slight" advantage. It is using a script to cover up my flaws as a player.
I thought the competetive players in general were in favour of encouraging a situation where personal skill and performance was the key in who won or lost, and who killed who. In this example of me using a pistol script, suddenly my skill as a marine using the pistol makes much less difference.
This is the main reason why I think bs_1 tournaments are favourable to bs_0. Skill matters more. It might not be much more, or very apparant, but it's still there.
It irks me is that +3jump is still blocked by our favourite server variable. Adding a built in command to the game that would do that has been suggested several times, but seems to have remained overlooked so far. I think this would greatly <i>'level the playing field'</i>, as a player wanting to bhop without using the mousewheel wouldn't need to have to look outside of the game to find a jump script, which was one of the reasons of the introduction of bs in the first place if I'm not mistaken ? Leveling the playing field hmm. So is there a reason not to do this ? I'd be interested to know.
As for the question of allowing the use of scripts in tournaments, it is up to the majority of the target audience to decide. Here in good old Europe, people seem to prefer to do it the old way, prohibiting those evil things they heard bad things about !
This is the main reason why I think bs_1 tournaments are favourable to bs_0. Skill matters more. It might not be much more, or very apparant, but it's still there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why, then, should custom crosshairs, disabling music, and tweaking net variables be allowed? Everyone does these things because they think they will help their gameplay. They are things that affect gameplay that are not purely based on skill. Why are scripts singled out?
As a totally separate point, on the list of "things I want to be important in my favorite game", some items that do not rank very high are: the ability to click a mouse button 10 times in a second, the will to replace one's mouse with some frequency, or the ability to locate a mouse with a sufficiently loose wheel.
The bottom line is that scripts get unfairly singled out as 'helping a players ability with out of game tweaks,' when there are like 50 other ways to help your game by doing things outside of NS. People who argue that you shouldn't be able to get better outside of the game, or configure anything beyond the default menu, are deluded. You need some level of customization... I mean I know I probably would've quit NS if I was forced to play with the default crosshairs (*shudder*).
I also think that the ultimate hypocrisy in this is that so many pubs have blockscripts on while consistency is left off. It's just an absolute joke. 3jump isn't okay, but spiked, pink models are. I mean at this point for many I don't think it's even about getting blockscript disabled on all pubs, it's about making people use their brains. It's sad to see an entire community so overwhelmingly blinded by ridiculous stereotypes. Although this is getting better, it's not near fast enough...
Of course, there are working alternatives to the stuff I wrote, such as including quake-style jumping which would remove the need for any sort of bind/script to do it well. Those are design decisions though, and all I've listed up there are stuff I want changed but where the result wouldnt go against current design goals (as I percieve them).
But as I started out by saying, this topic is about bs_0/bs_1 tournaments and by extension blockscripts itself, not about anything of the above.
Of course, there are working alternatives to the stuff I wrote, such as including quake-style jumping which would remove the need for any sort of bind/script to do it well. Those are design decisions though, and all I've listed up there are stuff I want changed but where the result wouldnt go against current design goals (as I percieve them).
But as I started out by saying, this topic is about bs_0/bs_1 tournaments and by extension blockscripts itself, not about anything of the above. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not trying to make the discussion about these other things. I am merely listing things that are widely implemented and considered legit by competive players, and using them to make a point.
Your response seems to be that these things should be given reasonable defaults in the mod. Presumably you would still allow people to change them, though. In addition, the fact that their current poor state has led all competetive players to change them has not induced any sort of controversy.
There seems to be something special about scripting. How is deciding one wants a different crosshair different from deciding one wants to bhop with the spacebar instead of the mousewheel? You are certainly allowed to believe script-users make the game worse; I am just trying to figure out what your argument against scripts is that does not apply to all these other things, so that I might actually evaluate it.
Many of the posts in this thread seem to start from one position or the other, and then invent arguments to support the position, rather than have positions based on logical arguments. While this situation is certainly not unique to this subject, I would rather like to try to make an exception of this thread and have some actual logical arguments to discuss.
I think it all boils down to skill in the end.
With the default crosshairs you really cant see what you're aiming at, but with a small white cross (for example), suddenly minute differences in abilities to aim are seen since the players shooting can now actually see what they're trying to shoot. Better crosshairs makes the skill aiming more important.
Rates (in laymans terms) make more of your bullets register, and make what you see more like what's actually happening. With good rates suddenly a random element is removed and how the player aims and moves have a larger impact.
Ambient sounds masks footsteps, and reduces the benifits of knowing how to move silently and when. Remove the ambient sound and suddenly the player attacking you cant just run at you, he/she will probably need to sneak up on you or already be in place to ambush. This (imo) adds to the game as a player adept in moving well or ambushing is awarded with a slight advantage.
Scripts (and jump bound to mwheel) remove the benifit of being able to click quickly while still being able to aim with the pistol, it enable you to somewhat reduce the disadvantage you have if you're not able to wigglewaggle, it suddenly give you the ability to time jumps almost perfectly, while without that ability someone who had practiced and could do it somewhat well would have an advantage over you (if you havent practiced/isnt able to).
So what's my point? Awarding people who can do things better than others. Yes, clicking attack repeatedly IS a skill. Blinding someone with a huge and vividly coloured crosshair makes that persons ability to do minute adjustments in aim less useful.
Of course, on the other hand we have the arguement of hardware. One could argue that someone with worse hardware would be at a disadvantage when it comes to jump timing if scripts/mwheel couldnt be used, and yes I guess that'd be correct. The question then would be what is most important, pleasing the minority whos system is old enough they cant run HL properly, or awarding people who have put alot of practice into the game.
<b>However</b>, everything you can come up with is a skill. Playing piano with your Pen-15, clicking your mouse repeatedly, spending 16 hours a days leveling a character or sorting your socks by color - they're all skills. But they're not things you look for in an intelligent and fun game. At least most of us don't. We don't want to see whose better at idiotic and boring tasks, or we'd be auditioning for Americas Next Top Model right now - we want to see whose smarter, faster, better at aiming, positioning, movement and awareness.
We want to see whose better when we discount as much of the discomfort of using clumsy controls we can. I don't for example want to see if I'm better at weaponswitching than Franky 4 Fingers - because I'm pretty flipping sure I am. I want to see which of the two of us is the better NSPlayer.
I think this is a good discussion and should definitely be continued because we're getting somewhere.
I am in no way saying that changing sounds etc. are acceptable and scripting isn't. I don't like any of it.
I want a game where people are all playing on the same level and using the options afforded to us by the designers.
Then there would be no need for bs_x or even this topic <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->