Unupgraded LMG against unupgraded Fade : 2.9 seconds to kill at point-blank range. Unupgraded LMG against level 3 Carapace Fade : 5 seconds to kill at point blank range, if you dont have to reload. Fully Upgraded LMG against unupgraded Fade : 2.2 seconds to kill at point-blank range. Fully Upgraded LMG against level 3 Carapace Fade : 3.9 seconds to kill at point-blank range. CONCLUSION : If youre going to LMG a Fade, make sure to have at least 2, preferably 3 marines charging him. A single marine will die from 3-4 acid rockets (depending on upgrades) - if the Fade clicks as fast as he can, this takes less than 2 seconds.
0/- HMG against -/0 Fade : 1.6 seconds to kill at point-blank range. 0/- HMG against -/3 Fade : 2.8 seconds to kill at point-blank range. 3/- HMG against -/0 Fade : 1.3 seconds to kill at point-blank range. 3/- HMG against -/3 Fade : 2.2 seconds to kill at point-blank range. CONCLUSION : A light armored marine with HMG can tear apart a Fade if he catches him at close range. However, it is much wiser to use Heavy Armor and HMG, remember the Fade can kill you in <2 seconds also.
Shotgun vs. Fade : 0/- marine vs -/0 Fade : 2 shots 0/- marine vs -/3 Fade : 4 shots 3/- marine vs -/0 Fade : 2 shots 3/- marine vs -/3 Fade : 3 shots CONCLUSION : At close range, the shotty will take down Fades fast. Two marines with shotguns and very good aim can instakill a Fade.
LMG vs. Onos: 0/- marine vs -/0 Onos : 77 shots to kill, takes you ~9 seconds due to reload. 0/- marine vs -/3 Onos : 100 shots to kill, hahahaha. 3/- marine vs -/0 Onos : 59 shots to kill, if you have 3 or 4 marines you might get him. 3/- marine vs -/3 Onos : 77 shots to kill - again! CONCLUSION : Nah.
HMG vs. Onos: 0/- marine vs -/0 Onos : 4.3 seconds to kill 0/- marine vs -/3 Onos : 5.6 seconds to kill 3/- marine vs -/0 Onos : 3.3 seconds to kill 3/- marine vs -/3 Onos : 4.3 seconds to kill CONCLUSION : Two HMG marines at point-blank range can kill an Onos in ~2 seconds. Whether the Marines will live that long at point-blank range is very doubtful.
Shotty vs. Onos: 0/- marine vs -/0 Onos : 5 shots 0/- marine vs -/3 Onos : 7 shots 3/- marine vs -/0 Onos : 4 shots 3/- marine vs -/3 Onos : 5 shots CONCLUSION : Shotgun is easily the best weapon against Onos. It doesn't slow you down, and 5 close range shots will take down even the most determined Onos. Two marines with shotguns can realistically mow down an Onos before it gets close.
The thing that you don't account for in your upgrade scheme is that having level 1 or level 2 armor is very rare in clan play or pubbing. You'd usually have level 3. Thus, there shouldn't be significant gains at each level of increase for carapace. Right now, taking more than two times the hits in a lot of cases completely outweighs the regeneration or redemption upgrade severely. Your seconds are also very misleading. It's much better to express it in terms of how much damage the thing can absorb. When I tested it, a fade could absorb almost 700 damage if not more. It was definitely more than 1 unupgraded lmg clip, and that's if all bullets hit. If the aliens had the marine armor system, a lot of these damage values would seem much more reasonable and the game would seem far more balanced. If you know how much carapace helps, there is literally no reason to take a gander at the other upgrades.
I seriously doubt that there was supposed to be any armor negation due to how much carapace benefits aliens and how much better it is than the others. In a PM when I annoyed flayra, I asked about the armor system. He said that the marine and alien armor system work the same. Obviously they don't if you test it and I told him about it (I don't know if I was heeded however).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The thing that you don't account for in your upgrade scheme is that having level 1 or level 2 armor is very rare in clan play or pubbing. You'd usually have level 3. Thus, there shouldn't be significant gains at each level of increase for carapace. Right now, taking more than two times the hits in a lot of cases completely outweighs the regeneration or redemption upgrade severely.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a very important argument when discussing balance. Numbers and calculations are all very impressive, but what really matters is the perceived strength of a certain weapon/feature.
Correct me if your impression is different, but almost every good player on almost every server advocates the upgrade chain Defence->Movement->Sensory for the upgrades Carapace->Adrenaline->Cloaking.
So Carapace is perceived to be the most important, most useful upgrade bar none, probably due to the damage negation bug/feature. How can it be balanced when it takes all freedom of choice away from the upgrade decisions?
(imho the same is true in the other two categories. there might be thought experiments where you don't choose adrenaline/cloaking, but ask yourself, how often does it really happen in the games you play?)
1) Even if aliens were changed to have the Marine armor system, the amount of damage a Fade could take would be EXACTLY the same. 100% identical. You would still take more than 1 unupgraded LMG clip to kill him. The only aliens that are affected by the different armor system are the Skulk and Onos. Few people will say that those two have too much HP...
2) There is NO alien that gains "more than two times the hits" with level 3 carapace. Benefits range from 30% with Onos to 75% for Lerks and Fades. Also, Lerks and Fades are COMPLETELY unaffected by the alien armor system bug. The alien armor system bug only works once your armor is depleted; both Lerks and Fades will always die before their armor is completely depleted. If the Alien armor system was fixed to work identically to Marine armor, the lerk and fade would be exactly as hard to kill as they are now. If you think Fades are too powerful, Alien Armor Bug has absolutely nothing to do with it.
3) If Alien Armor Bug was fixed, the two alien species that would get completely screwed would be the Skulk and Onos. Does anyone actually find skulks hard to kill right now? Didn't think so. Onos are harder to kill, but they cost nearly as much resources as a Hive. They're supposed to be tough. In contrast, the two alien species which people complain about imbalance, the Lerk and the Fade, would not be affected at all. Fixing the alien Armor Bug would not be a positive effect on game balance, at all.
4) Carapace is powerful, but Regeneration is nice too - having to run all the way back to defense chambers to heal can greatly slow you down sometimes. If you want to pick on any upgrade being imbalanced, pick Cloaking. When was the last time you went scent of fear or enhanced vision instead of cloaking? Did scent/vision help you at all, compared to Cloaking? Even adrenaline is far more imbalanced than Carapace. Out of the three, the Defense upgrades are probably the *most* balanced.
The only issue with this is that if you go Regeneration as an Onos you don't need to worry about regening your armor back up after taking damage. You can just wait for Regen to get your HPs up, and charge back in. After all, if you get the same armor absorption regardless of whether or not you have armor left, it doesn't matter if it's at 0 or not. I find it strange that they would even bother putting up armor numbers for Aliens at all in this case. As such, I can't believe that it's working as intended. Yes, it's not a HUGE imbalance... but something anyway. This of course assumes you are correct that they still absorb damage after they have no armor. I've yet to test that myself.
*applauds bodozerg's posts, and ignores anything else anyone said after them*
Excellent analysis. You really put some thought into that one, didn't you? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
/Imagines BoddoZerg as some sort of sentient computer system, complete with pointless flashing lights and noises.
I'm certainly glad somebody did this, but there was no way I was going to take the time and effort to do it myself. Three cheers for people who have nothing better to do! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually... I never find a use for Cloaking myself unless someone places it as the second Chamber type.
Considering that most Marines <b>Have A Clue</b> these days and get Motion Detection, cloaking isn't the be-all, end-all some think it is. Scent of Fear has taken over, far and away, as my favorite Sensory upgrade.
By the time one has it, one has access to large-radius splash damage weapons, making the lerk and fade able to 'sniff out' the enemies quite easilly by spraying bile and gas occasionally out of vents to hunt down the enemies.
By comparison, by the time one could have Cloaking usually with the D-M-S sequencing almost all games end up taking now (to the point I'd almost think it codified into the game if I didn't know better), finding a Marine around a corner when they <b>can</b> see you through that wall is much more important, ergo more people get Scent of Fear and Lerks and Fades, one or more Lerk's doing the gas attack, the rest giving Umbra support for the clean-up-crew Fades.
<!--QuoteBegin--Morose+Nov 19 2002, 10:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Morose @ Nov 19 2002, 10:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only issue with this is that if you go Regeneration as an Onos you don't need to worry about regening your armor back up after taking damage. You can just wait for Regen to get your HPs up, and charge back in. After all, if you get the same armor absorption regardless of whether or not you have armor left, it doesn't matter if it's at 0 or not. I find it strange that they would even bother putting up armor numbers for Aliens at all in this case. As such, I can't believe that it's working as intended. Yes, it's not a HUGE imbalance... but something anyway. This of course assumes you are correct that they still absorb damage after they have no armor. I've yet to test that myself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even as an alien, you'll die much faster when you run out of armor.
If a level 3 Carapace Onos with 500 health and 150 armor is shot with a Pistol bullet, he will take 8 damage to health and 6 damage to armor. The remaining 6 damage is ignored.
If the same Onos only has 500 health and no armor, and he is shot with a Pistol, he will take 14 damage. Although the same 6 damage is ignored, the Onos still takes more damage than he would if he had Armor - 14 damage opposed to 8.
A Marine with 100 health and 110 armor (full upgrades) who is shot by a pistol (friendly fire on) will take the same 8 damage to health and 6 damage to armor as the Onos would.
The only difference is what happens when he runs out of armor. A marine with 100 health and no Armor does not have any more "ignore damage" ability - unlike the Onos - so he will take the full 20 damage.
The Onos will start taking nearly twice as much damage once his Armor runs out.
At any level of Armor upgrade, a Light Armor Marine will die long before he runs out of Armor unless he gets medpacks. Thus, there's never really a chance to show the weakness of the Marine's armor system. In contrast, a Heavy Armor marine tends to run out of armor, then die instantly. If heavy armors followed the same rules for damage absorption that an Onos follows, their 100 HP would last twice as long once their armor is depleted, giving a Heavy Armor marine ~20% better longevity - almost as good as level 2 Armor upgrades.
Boddozerg, you've certainly cleared quite a few things up. Kudos.
I still find it odd that the armor system for the aliens works this way without any real explanation from the devs or the manual. I disagree with explanations that the aliens cellular structure changes and so causes damage absorbtion even without armor, because that's reaching pretty far into some back story just to explain why the armor system for a game that's not supposed to be realistic in any way is a little wonky.
Also, I can't find a real use for enhanced sight. But yes, Scent of Fear is fantastic for lerks and fades. Cloaking isn't useless against marines with motion tracking, by the way, since you're sitting still when you're cloaked anyway. Unless a marine specifically watched you and noticed where the MT signature went out, and then guessed you had cloaked there or heard you, cloaking still works. Granted that scenario isn't exactly implausable, but cloaking has its uses even in late game.
36% is a magic number in Starcraft/Warcraft III. The difference in longevity between a unit with 0 armor upgrades and 3 armor upgrades is (on average) 36%. The difference in damage output between a unit with 0 weapons upgrades and 3 weapons upgrades is usually near 36%. (although these figures all vary wildly from 'craft unit to 'craft unit)
A number near 36%, 40%, was mentioned in Age of Empires series; a unit that is designed to counter another unit will enjoy a 40% advantage. So, 1000 resources of cavlary units can beat 1400 resources of infantry, 1000 resources of infantry can beat 1400 resources of archers, 1000 resources of archers beat 1400 resources of cavlary.
The NS numbers tend to be a bit larger than 36-40%, because in a FPS game, player skill can easily account for more than a 36-40% difference.
1.) You don't get it Boddo. This damage bug applies no matter the armor status of the alien. Let's say for example that the fade is supposed to take 500 damage with level 3 carapace (200 + 150*2). With a 10 damage lmg, it would take 50 shots. However, due to the armor bug, the fade may very well take something in the neighborhood of only 7 damage a shot. This means 72 shots to down the fade which is a huge leap from the previous 50.
2.) ALL ALIENS are affected by the damage bug.
3.) Fixing this would have a positive effect on the game. I think flayra/whomever balanced the alien armor values with the marine style armor system in mind. If you calculate it, a lot of the damage values make a lot more sense if you apply the marine system rather than negating a third or more damage. Once again, all aliens are affected by this bug. As of now, defensive carapace is THE alien upgrade to get due to it at least doubling your damage absorbance for all aliens from level 0 carapace.
4.) Cloaking is fine the way it is. Getting it as the first upgrade however means certain death against any good marine team. The other sensory upgrades should be a little more helpful though. If you've played around a bit, defensive carapace is obviously way better than regeneration in the game's current state if you want to be competitive in almost every imaginable situation.
Boddo, I'm getting very tired of repeating myself. This bug happens no matter the state of the armor of the alien. If due to the bug the pistol's damage was negated to 14 at level 3 carapace and the alien had armor, 5.6 damage would be distributed to the alien's health and 4.2 to the alien's armor.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Nice theories on the effects of carapace. Unfortunately, incorrect.
To kill a skulk, you need 10,14,17,20 unupgraded LMG bullets for 0,1,2 and lvl 3 carap, respectivly.
<!--QuoteBegin--Terminotaur+Nov 17 2002, 07:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Terminotaur @ Nov 17 2002, 07:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How the armor model is supposed to work: <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you Flay?
I think the exact formula's should be put up just to settle debates such as this one. It is a legitimate discussion but numbers are numbers and both sides of the debate seem to have the "numbers' to back up their position.
Time for an official statement. Exactly how is Damage distributed for Health/Armour and Armour Upgrades?
Very well written, BoddoZerg, but your last post, at least, didn't address what I believe is the original issue raised:There is damage being removed BEFORE armor calculations, resulting in even less damage taken, and this 'phantom' damage reduction applies to all Kharaa.
In this example you gave: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If a level 3 Carapace Onos with 500 health and 150 armor is shot with a Pistol bullet, he will take 8 damage to health and 6 damage to armor. The remaining 6 damage is ignored.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Would be correct if it weren't for the extra damage reduction aliens are recieving. I recall someone saying it looked to be about 10%, so this calculation would go like this instead: If a level 3 Carapace Onos with 500 health and 150 armor is shot with a Pistol bullet, damage of 20, 10% (2 points) will be removed instantly. Then, he will take 60% of remaining damage to armor (10.8 or so, halved), and the rest (7.2) to health. This results in less damage per shot, which may be small, but adds up fast.
Of course, I could be completely wrong too, hard not getting lost reading this thread <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
You are completely right amzin, but the damage reduction isn't a mere 10%. With the lmg, it's around a third of the entire damage negated and that adds up to almost double hitpoints from level 0 carapace due to the way the armor system works in this game. Negation seems to be percent based, but I'm not exactly sure. If you calculated without the damage negation, much of the carapace levels seem a lot more believable than their current state. I'm not saying the aliens are unbeatable (in fact, early game, good marines completely rip through good skulks and won't let them ever get to fades and can end it before lev 3 cara), but level 3 carapace can ensure defeat once you reach the fade and such due to how much more damage that you can absorb.
I am very sure that the alien armor system should not work this way. Flayra has stated both armor systems of the marines and aliens should work the same.
<!--QuoteBegin--Fam+Nov 17 2002, 11:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fam @ Nov 17 2002, 11:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Carapace adds more armor, and also reduces the aliens vunerability to weapons fire. It is not meant to just up the max armor value, but also to reduce any damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> fam, that wouldnt make any sense, otherwise there would be NO point in having armor at all..
the way the alien carparice works makes perfect sense.
think about it, are they aliens running around wearing armored vests?? of course not! their armor is a part of their bodies
therefore its always there, the little armor counter there could be considered the first layer of their armored skin. once that's gone what about all the other layers underneath?
the marines on the otherhand ARE wearing vests and such, so when that runs out, their soft little hides are getting munched on.
makes sense doesnt it??<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> no, it doesnt.. .. it takes alot of will power not to belittle you, sorry this is like this term..
<!--QuoteBegin--Fam+Nov 17 2002, 10:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fam @ Nov 17 2002, 10:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Carapace adds more armor, and also reduces the aliens vunerability to weapons fire. It is not meant to just up the max armor value, but also to reduce any damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But I thought it was supposed to reduce damage by increasing the percentage of damage absorbed by armor, rather than health, not negate damage entirely.
That's the implication from looking at <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/alien_evolutions_carapace.html' target='_blank'>the manual</a>.
-Ryan!
Wars teach us not to love our enemies, but to hate our allies. -- W. L. George
since this important thread still lacks an "official" statement and the "it's not a bug, it's a feature" attitude is spreading, i just wanted to make sure you caught coil's (PT) statement:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4) Incorrect damage dealt at 0 armor. As far as I know, this affects both teams - the net effect of fixing it will be to make the Lerk comparatively more resistant (since his armor rarely runs out before his health). No problem here, in my opinion, as both teams are affected by the bug. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
from <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=12230&st=0' target='_blank'>this thread</a>.
This acknowledges that there IS a bug in the armour system, although it does not acknowledge that damage disappears even BEFORE the armour is gone.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nimbus+Nov 17 2002, 01:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nimbus @ Nov 17 2002, 01:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Have you even played this game? <b> YES, THE MARINES DO HAVE THIS, IN TWO DIFFERENT FORMATS</b>
<b>1.</b> The armor upgrades from the arms lab does the same thing that carapace does. (maybe not the exact numbers but it is the same function)
<b>2.</b> Heavy armor gives an INSANE amount of absorb, more than ANY OTHER THING IN THE GAME.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, and both transfer a certain percentage more damage to the armor itself, rather than to the health. Just as carapace was intended to do.
There is nothing the marines have to <b>totally negate</b> damage done.
Please read the posts before replying.
I haven't tested this "bug" out yet, but I would like to, soon...
If it is there, Carapace has become my new favorite upgrade.
-Ryan!
The reserve of modern assertions is sometimes pushed to extremes, in which the fear of being contradicted leads the writer to strip himself of almost all sense and meaning. -- Sir Winston Churchill
<!--QuoteBegin--mndeg+Nov 17 2002, 10:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mndeg @ Nov 17 2002, 10:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->yep, if you ever READ the carapace tool tip it says that it negates 20% DMG every level<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm. I brought up the titles.txt for NS, which contains the tool tips.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->TechNodeHelp_101 { Increases amount of armor. Each level of carapace absorbs 20% more damage. }<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is what came up. It only says that each level of carapace <b>absorbs</b> 20% more damage, not negates.
-Ryan!
Illegitimacy is something we should talk about in terms of not having it. -- Dan Quayle
OK, I was one who was skeptical about this armor bug. It shouldn't negate damage, I would imagine, as Flayra said in a PM to Terminataur, the armor on aliens should work the same as it does for marines. That is, take the full damage, for the knife, say, 30, and apply that to the Kharaa. Now take the amount being aborbed by armor, 30% in the case of an unupgraded skulk, half it, and apply it to the armor. 30% of 30 damage is 9 points of damage. Half-life would apply 4.5 points of damage to the skulk's armor, and the remaining 70% (21 points) to the health hit points. Carapace is supposed to not only increase armor, but also to increase the percent of damage absorbed by the armor. A skulk with a level three carapace, for example, has 30 points of armor and the armor absorbs 60% of the damage. One knife slash would take 60% of 30 (18), half it (9), and apply that to armor, applying the remaining 40% of the knife slash (12) directly to the health, taking the skulk from 70 HP and 30 armor to 58 HP and 21 armor.
It works this way perfectly for the marines. And it also works for a skulk with no carapace. But carapace appears to negate completely 30% of damage. (Level three carapace, anyways. We did not test level one or level two carapace.)
I saw Terminataur on IRC, so I opened up the <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/index.html' target='_blank'>NS Manual</a>, pulled up the relevant numbers, opened up Notepad and calculator, and proceeded to work out some quick math, knowing how HL's damage system works. As I thought it would be easiest to test, I ran the numebrs through for a skulk being hit by a pistol. Please let me know if anything is confusing or any math looks bad. This is basically how I worked it out, but when posting these sorts of things you get to a point where people just glance over the numbers, and say, eh, looks OK to me.
Pistol damage: 20 70/10 30% absorb at spawn 70/30 after carapace +10% absorb/level
so...
70/10 30% without carapace at all 56/7 on first pistol shot 42/4 on second 28/1 on third 10/0 on fourth 0/0 the fifth pistol shot should kill an unupgraded skulk
70/30 60% absorb with level three carapace. 62/24 on first pistol shot 54/18 on second 46/12 on third 38/6 on fourth 30/0 on the fifth shot, all damage goes to health, as the armor has been depleted 10/0 on the sixth 0/0 the seventh pistol shot should kill an upgraded skulk
I gave Terminataur the numbers. We found an empty server and hopped on to test it. I went Frontiersman, he went Kharaa. He rushed to the marine start and stood before me. I whipped out my pistol, aimed at the middle of his body, and shot once, twice, thrice, four times, and he died on the fifth shot. Just as expected. Satisfied my math skills have not yet fled me entirely, I waited for him to build three defense chambers. Having done so, he evolves carapce and comes to me again. I fire on him again, a strange satisfaction falling over me as I count the sprays of green coming up from his model. Five shots...six shots, here it is...seventh shot...and he still stood before me. An eighth shot, ninth shot, and at this point I was wondering if maybe he was exploiting the Ready Room bug, when he collapses on the tenth shot. He confirmed that every fire of the pistol concided with his health going down. 30% of the damage my weapon was supposed to deal was entirely negated.
He evolved level three carapace again and ran over to me. This time I fired out shot and asked his status. 65 HP, 25 armor. About 15 points of damage were being applied (remember that your HUD rounds numbers off), rather than the 20 that should have been there. So I brought his armor down to 0, and he went to heal his health back up to full, leaving his armor at 0. He then came back, and we decided to try using <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/weapons_knife.html' target='_blank'>the knife</a> on him, which should cause 30 damage. He stands in front of me, I pull my knife out with a slow, grim determination, and crouch next to him. Slash. He reports 29 HP left. Only 21 damage applied, only 70% of the 30 points of damage that should have been applied. I take out my <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/weapons_pistol.html' target='_blank'>pistol</a> and fire. 15 HP left. Only 14 points of damage were applied to his health, 70% of the 20 damage that should have taken place. Finally, I take out my <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/weapons_lmg.html' target='_blank'>LMG</a> and, very, very carefully, tap my mouse button. One shot spurts through the muzzle and strikes the skulk. 8 HP left. Only 7 damage, 30% of damage being negated entirely. Two more shots finish the job.
We wonder whether it is always 30% of damage dealt being negated, or if sub-species matter. He evolves into a gorge and starts a second Hive. While we wait for that, he evolves carapace, and I bring his health and armor down until his armor is gone, and he heals his hit points fully, leaving his armor untouched. He comes back 100 HP 0 armor. I crouch before him again and slash. Again 21 damage, with 30% of the 30 damage that should occur disappearing. Same with the LMG and pistol. After the second Hive comes up, he evolves into a Fade and we try again. 21 damage with the knife yet again.
So, with level three carapace (we did not test out level one or two carapace), 30% of all damage dealt to you disappears into thin air. Not absorbed by armor, or transferred to armo, or distributed to armor. Disappears. And based on everything the development team has said so far, I can't imagine that this negation is intentional. So I do believe it needs to be either brought to their attention, or someone from the development team needs to come set us straight, let us know that this was an intentional negation, and it they merely forgot to document it.
And even if it isn't intentional, there are those who raise the question, does it matter? Doesn't it make things more balanced? All I can say to that is, from my direct testing in game under conditions as controlled as possible, it take twice as many shots from the pistol to take down a skulk with level three carapace than it does to take down a skulk with no evolutions yet. And that is a huge jump. Maybe it does make the game more balanced, as it is hard to see through those teeth <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> , and maybe it doesn't. But until I hear otherwise, I can't imagine this being intentional, and I think that the bug/feature should be brought to the attention of those in charge.
And now, everything I said in four sentences: Level three carapace negates 30% of all damage done on it. I tested it. And I encourage you to find a friend on IRC, get an empty server, and test it yourself. Thank you for your time.
-Ryan!
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. -- Bertrand Russell
Edit: As it turns out, many people seem to like to cover their eyes and ears and scream at the top of their lungs, 'There is no issue, there is no issue,' over and over again. I can understand not wanting to dredge up old information on just one person's say so (who likes reading, "OMG carapace is so unfair H4X!!!11!1", but I'm not asking for you to trust me here. Get a friend. Make them get NS. Get on a completely empty server. Count how many LMG shots it takes to bring down a Fade. Now have that same Fade get level three carapace and try it again. Seriously, try it yourself. You may be a bit surprised.
Comments
Unupgraded LMG against unupgraded Fade : 2.9 seconds to kill at point-blank range.
Unupgraded LMG against level 3 Carapace Fade : 5 seconds to kill at point blank range, if you dont have to reload.
Fully Upgraded LMG against unupgraded Fade : 2.2 seconds to kill at point-blank range.
Fully Upgraded LMG against level 3 Carapace Fade : 3.9 seconds to kill at point-blank range.
CONCLUSION : If youre going to LMG a Fade, make sure to have at least 2, preferably 3 marines charging him. A single marine will die from 3-4 acid rockets (depending on upgrades) - if the Fade clicks as fast as he can, this takes less than 2 seconds.
0/- HMG against -/0 Fade : 1.6 seconds to kill at point-blank range.
0/- HMG against -/3 Fade : 2.8 seconds to kill at point-blank range.
3/- HMG against -/0 Fade : 1.3 seconds to kill at point-blank range.
3/- HMG against -/3 Fade : 2.2 seconds to kill at point-blank range.
CONCLUSION : A light armored marine with HMG can tear apart a Fade if he catches him at close range. However, it is much wiser to use Heavy Armor and HMG, remember the Fade can kill you in <2 seconds also.
Shotgun vs. Fade :
0/- marine vs -/0 Fade : 2 shots
0/- marine vs -/3 Fade : 4 shots
3/- marine vs -/0 Fade : 2 shots
3/- marine vs -/3 Fade : 3 shots
CONCLUSION : At close range, the shotty will take down Fades fast. Two marines with shotguns and very good aim can instakill a Fade.
LMG vs. Onos:
0/- marine vs -/0 Onos : 77 shots to kill, takes you ~9 seconds due to reload.
0/- marine vs -/3 Onos : 100 shots to kill, hahahaha.
3/- marine vs -/0 Onos : 59 shots to kill, if you have 3 or 4 marines you might get him.
3/- marine vs -/3 Onos : 77 shots to kill - again!
CONCLUSION : Nah.
HMG vs. Onos:
0/- marine vs -/0 Onos : 4.3 seconds to kill
0/- marine vs -/3 Onos : 5.6 seconds to kill
3/- marine vs -/0 Onos : 3.3 seconds to kill
3/- marine vs -/3 Onos : 4.3 seconds to kill
CONCLUSION : Two HMG marines at point-blank range can kill an Onos in ~2 seconds. Whether the Marines will live that long at point-blank range is very doubtful.
Shotty vs. Onos:
0/- marine vs -/0 Onos : 5 shots
0/- marine vs -/3 Onos : 7 shots
3/- marine vs -/0 Onos : 4 shots
3/- marine vs -/3 Onos : 5 shots
CONCLUSION : Shotgun is easily the best weapon against Onos. It doesn't slow you down, and 5 close range shots will take down even the most determined Onos. Two marines with shotguns can realistically mow down an Onos before it gets close.
Shotgun <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> s <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> !!
I seriously doubt that there was supposed to be any armor negation due to how much carapace benefits aliens and how much better it is than the others. In a PM when I annoyed flayra, I asked about the armor system. He said that the marine and alien armor system work the same. Obviously they don't if you test it and I told him about it (I don't know if I was heeded however).
This is a very important argument when discussing balance. Numbers and calculations are all very impressive, but what really matters is the perceived strength of a certain weapon/feature.
Correct me if your impression is different, but almost every good player on almost every server advocates the upgrade chain Defence->Movement->Sensory for the upgrades Carapace->Adrenaline->Cloaking.
So Carapace is perceived to be the most important, most useful upgrade bar none, probably due to the damage negation bug/feature. How can it be balanced when it takes all freedom of choice away from the upgrade decisions?
(imho the same is true in the other two categories. there might be thought experiments where you don't choose adrenaline/cloaking, but ask yourself, how often does it really happen in the games you play?)
1) Even if aliens were changed to have the Marine armor system, the amount of damage a Fade could take would be EXACTLY the same. 100% identical. You would still take more than 1 unupgraded LMG clip to kill him. The only aliens that are affected by the different armor system are the Skulk and Onos. Few people will say that those two have too much HP...
2) There is NO alien that gains "more than two times the hits" with level 3 carapace. Benefits range from 30% with Onos to 75% for Lerks and Fades. Also, Lerks and Fades are COMPLETELY unaffected by the alien armor system bug. The alien armor system bug only works once your armor is depleted; both Lerks and Fades will always die before their armor is completely depleted. If the Alien armor system was fixed to work identically to Marine armor, the lerk and fade would be exactly as hard to kill as they are now. If you think Fades are too powerful, Alien Armor Bug has absolutely nothing to do with it.
3) If Alien Armor Bug was fixed, the two alien species that would get completely screwed would be the Skulk and Onos. Does anyone actually find skulks hard to kill right now? Didn't think so. Onos are harder to kill, but they cost nearly as much resources as a Hive. They're supposed to be tough. In contrast, the two alien species which people complain about imbalance, the Lerk and the Fade, would not be affected at all. Fixing the alien Armor Bug would not be a positive effect on game balance, at all.
4) Carapace is powerful, but Regeneration is nice too - having to run all the way back to defense chambers to heal can greatly slow you down sometimes. If you want to pick on any upgrade being imbalanced, pick Cloaking. When was the last time you went scent of fear or enhanced vision instead of cloaking? Did scent/vision help you at all, compared to Cloaking? Even adrenaline is far more imbalanced than Carapace. Out of the three, the Defense upgrades are probably the *most* balanced.
5) LMG and HMG fire 10 bullets per second.
Excellent analysis. You really put some thought into that one, didn't you? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm certainly glad somebody did this, but there was no way I was going to take the time and effort to do it myself. Three cheers for people who have nothing better to do! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Considering that most Marines <b>Have A Clue</b> these days and get Motion Detection, cloaking isn't the be-all, end-all some think it is. Scent of Fear has taken over, far and away, as my favorite Sensory upgrade.
By the time one has it, one has access to large-radius splash damage weapons, making the lerk and fade able to 'sniff out' the enemies quite easilly by spraying bile and gas occasionally out of vents to hunt down the enemies.
By comparison, by the time one could have Cloaking usually with the D-M-S sequencing almost all games end up taking now (to the point I'd almost think it codified into the game if I didn't know better), finding a Marine around a corner when they <b>can</b> see you through that wall is much more important, ergo more people get Scent of Fear and Lerks and Fades, one or more Lerk's doing the gas attack, the rest giving Umbra support for the clean-up-crew Fades.
Even as an alien, you'll die much faster when you run out of armor.
If a level 3 Carapace Onos with 500 health and 150 armor is shot with a Pistol bullet, he will take 8 damage to health and 6 damage to armor. The remaining 6 damage is ignored.
If the same Onos only has 500 health and no armor, and he is shot with a Pistol, he will take 14 damage. Although the same 6 damage is ignored, the Onos still takes more damage than he would if he had Armor - 14 damage opposed to 8.
A Marine with 100 health and 110 armor (full upgrades) who is shot by a pistol (friendly fire on) will take the same 8 damage to health and 6 damage to armor as the Onos would.
The only difference is what happens when he runs out of armor. A marine with 100 health and no Armor does not have any more "ignore damage" ability - unlike the Onos - so he will take the full 20 damage.
The Onos will start taking nearly twice as much damage once his Armor runs out.
At any level of Armor upgrade, a Light Armor Marine will die long before he runs out of Armor unless he gets medpacks. Thus, there's never really a chance to show the weakness of the Marine's armor system. In contrast, a Heavy Armor marine tends to run out of armor, then die instantly. If heavy armors followed the same rules for damage absorption that an Onos follows, their 100 HP would last twice as long once their armor is depleted, giving a Heavy Armor marine ~20% better longevity - almost as good as level 2 Armor upgrades.
Awsome job dude, especially for someone with less than 100 posts...
edit: just what was that 36% you were talking about? why is that the majic number?
I still find it odd that the armor system for the aliens works this way without any real explanation from the devs or the manual. I disagree with explanations that the aliens cellular structure changes and so causes damage absorbtion even without armor, because that's reaching pretty far into some back story just to explain why the armor system for a game that's not supposed to be realistic in any way is a little wonky.
Also, I can't find a real use for enhanced sight. But yes, Scent of Fear is fantastic for lerks and fades. Cloaking isn't useless against marines with motion tracking, by the way, since you're sitting still when you're cloaked anyway. Unless a marine specifically watched you and noticed where the MT signature went out, and then guessed you had cloaked there or heard you, cloaking still works. Granted that scenario isn't exactly implausable, but cloaking has its uses even in late game.
A number near 36%, 40%, was mentioned in Age of Empires series; a unit that is designed to counter another unit will enjoy a 40% advantage. So, 1000 resources of cavlary units can beat 1400 resources of infantry, 1000 resources of infantry can beat 1400 resources of archers, 1000 resources of archers beat 1400 resources of cavlary.
The NS numbers tend to be a bit larger than 36-40%, because in a FPS game, player skill can easily account for more than a 36-40% difference.
2.) ALL ALIENS are affected by the damage bug.
3.) Fixing this would have a positive effect on the game. I think flayra/whomever balanced the alien armor values with the marine style armor system in mind. If you calculate it, a lot of the damage values make a lot more sense if you apply the marine system rather than negating a third or more damage. Once again, all aliens are affected by this bug. As of now, defensive carapace is THE alien upgrade to get due to it at least doubling your damage absorbance for all aliens from level 0 carapace.
4.) Cloaking is fine the way it is. Getting it as the first upgrade however means certain death against any good marine team. The other sensory upgrades should be a little more helpful though. If you've played around a bit, defensive carapace is obviously way better than regeneration in the game's current state if you want to be competitive in almost every imaginable situation.
Boddo, I'm getting very tired of repeating myself. This bug happens no matter the state of the armor of the alien. If due to the bug the pistol's damage was negated to 14 at level 3 carapace and the alien had armor, 5.6 damage would be distributed to the alien's health and 4.2 to the alien's armor.
To kill a skulk, you need 10,14,17,20 unupgraded LMG bullets for 0,1,2 and lvl 3 carap, respectivly.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you Flay?
How do you know how it is suppose to work?
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think the exact formula's should be put up just to settle debates such as this one. It is a legitimate discussion but numbers are numbers and both sides of the debate seem to have the "numbers' to back up their position.
Time for an official statement. Exactly how is Damage distributed for Health/Armour and Armour Upgrades?
In this example you gave:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
If a level 3 Carapace Onos with 500 health and 150 armor is shot with a Pistol bullet, he will take 8 damage to health and 6 damage to armor. The remaining 6 damage is ignored.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would be correct if it weren't for the extra damage reduction aliens are recieving. I recall someone saying it looked to be about 10%, so this calculation would go like this instead:
If a level 3 Carapace Onos with 500 health and 150 armor is shot with a Pistol bullet, damage of 20, 10% (2 points) will be removed instantly. Then, he will take 60% of remaining damage to armor (10.8 or so, halved), and the rest (7.2) to health. This results in less damage per shot, which may be small, but adds up fast.
Of course, I could be completely wrong too, hard not getting lost reading this thread <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I am very sure that the alien armor system should not work this way. Flayra has stated both armor systems of the marines and aliens should work the same.
fam, that wouldnt make any sense, otherwise there would be NO point in having armor at all..
the way the alien carparice works makes perfect sense.
think about it, are they aliens running around wearing armored vests?? of course not!
their armor is a part of their bodies
therefore its always there, the little armor counter there could be considered the first layer of their armored skin. once that's gone what about all the other layers underneath?
the marines on the otherhand ARE wearing vests and such, so when that runs out, their soft little hides are getting munched on.
makes sense doesnt it??<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, it doesnt.. .. it takes alot of will power not to belittle you, sorry this is like this term..
But I thought it was supposed to reduce damage by increasing the percentage of damage absorbed by armor, rather than health, not negate damage entirely.
That's the implication from looking at <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/alien_evolutions_carapace.html' target='_blank'>the manual</a>.
-Ryan!
Wars teach us not to love our enemies, but to hate our allies.
-- W. L. George
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4) Incorrect damage dealt at 0 armor. As far as I know, this affects both teams - the net effect of fixing it will be to make the Lerk comparatively more resistant (since his armor rarely runs out before his health). No problem here, in my opinion, as both teams are affected by the bug. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
from <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=12230&st=0' target='_blank'>this thread</a>.
This acknowledges that there IS a bug in the armour system, although it does not acknowledge that damage disappears even BEFORE the armour is gone.
<b>1.</b> The armor upgrades from the arms lab does the same thing that carapace does. (maybe not the exact numbers but it is the same function)
<b>2.</b> Heavy armor gives an INSANE amount of absorb, more than ANY OTHER THING IN THE GAME.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and both transfer a certain percentage more damage to the armor itself, rather than to the health. Just as carapace was intended to do.
There is nothing the marines have to <b>totally negate</b> damage done.
Please read the posts before replying.
I haven't tested this "bug" out yet, but I would like to, soon...
If it is there, Carapace has become my new favorite upgrade.
-Ryan!
The reserve of modern assertions is sometimes pushed to extremes, in which the fear of being contradicted leads the writer to strip himself of almost all sense and meaning.
-- Sir Winston Churchill
Hmm. I brought up the titles.txt for NS, which contains the tool tips.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->TechNodeHelp_101
{
Increases amount of armor. Each level of carapace absorbs 20% more damage.
}<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is what came up. It only says that each level of carapace <b>absorbs</b> 20% more damage, not negates.
-Ryan!
Illegitimacy is something we should talk about in terms of not having it.
-- Dan Quayle
It works this way perfectly for the marines. And it also works for a skulk with no carapace. But carapace appears to negate completely 30% of damage. (Level three carapace, anyways. We did not test level one or level two carapace.)
I saw Terminataur on IRC, so I opened up the <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/index.html' target='_blank'>NS Manual</a>, pulled up the relevant numbers, opened up Notepad and calculator, and proceeded to work out some quick math, knowing how HL's damage system works. As I thought it would be easiest to test, I ran the numebrs through for a skulk being hit by a pistol. Please let me know if anything is confusing or any math looks bad. This is basically how I worked it out, but when posting these sorts of things you get to a point where people just glance over the numbers, and say, eh, looks OK to me.
Pistol damage: 20
70/10 30% absorb at spawn
70/30 after carapace +10% absorb/level
so...
70/10 30% without carapace at all
56/7 on first pistol shot
42/4 on second
28/1 on third
10/0 on fourth
0/0 the fifth pistol shot should kill an unupgraded skulk
70/30 60% absorb with level three carapace.
62/24 on first pistol shot
54/18 on second
46/12 on third
38/6 on fourth
30/0 on the fifth shot, all damage goes to health, as the armor has been depleted
10/0 on the sixth
0/0 the seventh pistol shot should kill an upgraded skulk
I gave Terminataur the numbers. We found an empty server and hopped on to test it. I went Frontiersman, he went Kharaa. He rushed to the marine start and stood before me. I whipped out my pistol, aimed at the middle of his body, and shot once, twice, thrice, four times, and he died on the fifth shot. Just as expected. Satisfied my math skills have not yet fled me entirely, I waited for him to build three defense chambers. Having done so, he evolves carapce and comes to me again. I fire on him again, a strange satisfaction falling over me as I count the sprays of green coming up from his model. Five shots...six shots, here it is...seventh shot...and he still stood before me. An eighth shot, ninth shot, and at this point I was wondering if maybe he was exploiting the Ready Room bug, when he collapses on the tenth shot. He confirmed that every fire of the pistol concided with his health going down. 30% of the damage my weapon was supposed to deal was entirely negated.
He evolved level three carapace again and ran over to me. This time I fired out shot and asked his status. 65 HP, 25 armor. About 15 points of damage were being applied (remember that your HUD rounds numbers off), rather than the 20 that should have been there. So I brought his armor down to 0, and he went to heal his health back up to full, leaving his armor at 0. He then came back, and we decided to try using <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/weapons_knife.html' target='_blank'>the knife</a> on him, which should cause 30 damage. He stands in front of me, I pull my knife out with a slow, grim determination, and crouch next to him. Slash. He reports 29 HP left. Only 21 damage applied, only 70% of the 30 points of damage that should have been applied. I take out my <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/weapons_pistol.html' target='_blank'>pistol</a> and fire. 15 HP left. Only 14 points of damage were applied to his health, 70% of the 20 damage that should have taken place. Finally, I take out my <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/weapons_lmg.html' target='_blank'>LMG</a> and, very, very carefully, tap my mouse button. One shot spurts through the muzzle and strikes the skulk. 8 HP left. Only 7 damage, 30% of damage being negated entirely. Two more shots finish the job.
We wonder whether it is always 30% of damage dealt being negated, or if sub-species matter. He evolves into a gorge and starts a second Hive. While we wait for that, he evolves carapace, and I bring his health and armor down until his armor is gone, and he heals his hit points fully, leaving his armor untouched. He comes back 100 HP 0 armor. I crouch before him again and slash. Again 21 damage, with 30% of the 30 damage that should occur disappearing. Same with the LMG and pistol. After the second Hive comes up, he evolves into a Fade and we try again. 21 damage with the knife yet again.
So, with level three carapace (we did not test out level one or two carapace), 30% of all damage dealt to you disappears into thin air. Not absorbed by armor, or transferred to armo, or distributed to armor. Disappears. And based on everything the development team has said so far, I can't imagine that this negation is intentional. So I do believe it needs to be either brought to their attention, or someone from the development team needs to come set us straight, let us know that this was an intentional negation, and it they merely forgot to document it.
And even if it isn't intentional, there are those who raise the question, does it matter? Doesn't it make things more balanced? All I can say to that is, from my direct testing in game under conditions as controlled as possible, it take twice as many shots from the pistol to take down a skulk with level three carapace than it does to take down a skulk with no evolutions yet. And that is a huge jump. Maybe it does make the game more balanced, as it is hard to see through those teeth <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> , and maybe it doesn't. But until I hear otherwise, I can't imagine this being intentional, and I think that the bug/feature should be brought to the attention of those in charge.
And now, everything I said in four sentences:
Level three carapace negates 30% of all damage done on it. I tested it. And I encourage you to find a friend on IRC, get an empty server, and test it yourself. Thank you for your time.
-Ryan!
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russell
Edit: As it turns out, many people seem to like to cover their eyes and ears and scream at the top of their lungs, 'There is no issue, there is no issue,' over and over again. I can understand not wanting to dredge up old information on just one person's say so (who likes reading, "OMG carapace is so unfair H4X!!!11!1", but I'm not asking for you to trust me here. Get a friend. Make them get NS. Get on a completely empty server. Count how many LMG shots it takes to bring down a Fade. Now have that same Fade get level three carapace and try it again. Seriously, try it yourself. You may be a bit surprised.