<!--QuoteBegin-eliotmat+Apr 25 2005, 01:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eliotmat @ Apr 25 2005, 01:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The idea is to encourage capture of strategic points and de-emphasize res control. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I thought the entire point of 3.0 was to de-emphasize the need for hives and place the emphasis of resource control.
<!--QuoteBegin-Roberto+Apr 25 2005, 05:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Roberto @ Apr 25 2005, 05:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-eliotmat+Apr 25 2005, 01:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eliotmat @ Apr 25 2005, 01:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The idea is to encourage capture of strategic points and de-emphasize res control. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I thought the entire point of 3.0 was to de-emphasize the need for hives and place the emphasis of resource control. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Hives are just a tad less important in 3.0f, but that's mainly because skulks are in general better now. However, one hive aliens still can't break a 2-hive lockdown, especially if they went sc first, and that second hive is necessary to deal with upgraded marine tech.
Marine have to rely on their ability to work together, and the NS development team is simply leaning on the fact that human beings across the world will all cooperate as one.
Aliens get to run amok and do their own thing. One Fade can be the mainstay of the entire alien team, and by the time he dies he has enough to go Fade again, or even Onos, at the 5 minutes mark of a bit less.
Marines require a substantial amount of work and conviction of the teammembers to win, in order to obtain victory. This has begun to decrease, decrease, and decrease even more... it's becoming hard for marines to pay attention to what the commander wants and when he wants it.
Can we control the dicipline of the human beings who play this game? No. Can we wish they listened? Sure, but that doesn't mean it's going to get done. People will just slap the "Teamwork" sticker on the marines and say "Hey, if they dont have it then too bad. Tough luck."
So going aliens means its more fun because you win more, and also because you can do almost whatever the hell you want except for when it comes to dropping chambers.
Marine needs leadership, they need cooperative teammates, and they need the ability to expand rapidly and hold those captures nodes for more than just a few minutes.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Apr 25 2005, 09:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Apr 25 2005, 09:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Stopping the aliens from putting up a hive is a big enough incentive, IMO. If you can delay the aliens from getting their second hive for as long as possible, marines get precious, precious time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The precious time still wont save them if the aliens play it right. If the marines to manage to get a middle hive early and hold it, then the aliens need to have their higher life forms pressing that hive and get every other skulk to go after the rts, and drop the rts as quick as possible, then the aliens drop their own rts very quickly after that and the game is a res game. The marines will soon be destroyed by a lamed up map and the aliens higher life forms will thrive.
<!--QuoteBegin-N Recoup+Apr 25 2005, 09:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (N Recoup @ Apr 25 2005, 09:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think the man offers a valid point.
Marine have to rely on their ability to work together, and the NS development team is simply leaning on the fact that human beings across the world will all cooperate as one.
Aliens get to run amok and do their own thing. One Fade can be the mainstay of the entire alien team, and by the time he dies he has enough to go Fade again, or even Onos, at the 5 minutes mark of a bit less.
Marines require a substantial amount of work and conviction of the teammembers to win, in order to obtain victory. This has begun to decrease, decrease, and decrease even more... it's becoming hard for marines to pay attention to what the commander wants and when he wants it.
Can we control the dicipline of the human beings who play this game? No. Can we wish they listened? Sure, but that doesn't mean it's going to get done. People will just slap the "Teamwork" sticker on the marines and say "Hey, if they dont have it then too bad. Tough luck."
So going aliens means its more fun because you win more, and also because you can do almost whatever the hell you want except for when it comes to dropping chambers.
Marine needs leadership, they need cooperative teammates, and they need the ability to expand rapidly and hold those captures nodes for more than just a few minutes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's why Combat is so appealing
Anyways, what do you need to get weapons? What do you need to get upgrades? What do you need to get those '1337' fades? The answer for all these questions is simple: RESOURCES. You control the resources and you control the game.
If you are talking about public play (say 9v9) then an easy way to win is to have 2 marines cover each resource node that you cap. We all know that 2 marines can kill better than one (should be at least). After a minute or two you suddenly have shotguns/HMGs. Fade where? Oh, you must mean the one on the wall from my massive firepower.
Competivive play varies but still focuses on resources.
My synopsis: Holding hives was fine and dandy in 1.0x when they were worth holding. Let's <i>adapt</i> or else you might be the target of what I like to call Natural Selection.
It's nice that people say Marines need teamwork in order to win. But as I see it in the competative league where teamwork is a must to win that nearly 90% or the games played end in alien ties. Its unbelieveably hard to win as Marines now even if you manage to kill all but their base RT. We've done it before and what we got was 3 Fades down our throat. And you know how annoying it is to kill 3 fades running in and out.
Only time I ever see Marines win is when the alien team is absolutly horrible and not one player has a positive ratio. Marines have to so superior in knoweldge and skill in order to beat a decent alien team now.
The jump from 1 hive power to 2 hive power is too great, IMO. At 2 hives, aliens have the upper hand, but it's no fun to play when rines have 2 hives locked down.
I think the real problem with NS is that it's a game where there should be a focus on teamwork, but when you have extremely skilled players and poor players, it doesn't work at all. Skill levels need to be adjusted in order for the major problem to be fixed. There is the player isolation route such as Warcraft III or Halo, where people of similar levels can play each other, but I find that hard to imagine with NS. I can only hope the BUS solves this problem.
R4K could be another problem as it only rewards the killer. It might take a skulk to parasite, a lerk to spore and a gorge to lure, only to have a fade to swipe, but the reward of that teamwork only goes to the fade.
The idea that marines should be required to be teamwork oriented whereas aliens should not makes zero sense. All it takes is something like aliens using teamwork and the whole idea falls apart. Basically, it's a bad idea.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swift Idiot+Apr 26 2005, 01:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swift Idiot @ Apr 26 2005, 01:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What would happen if RFK was removed? <-- curious <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> SDJason wins 2x as many games? Aliens get crippled in large servers? Game slows down a lot? Res nodes become much more important? More strategy? Individual skill becomes less important?
<!--QuoteBegin-Swift Idiot+Apr 26 2005, 01:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swift Idiot @ Apr 26 2005, 01:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What would happen if RFK was removed? <-- curious <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->SDJason wins 2x as many games?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hoo dat?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens get crippled in large servers?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> More servers with recommended numba of players = <span style='color:lime'>Win.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Game slows down a lot?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> make RTs give more
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Res nodes become much more important?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <span style='color:lime'>Win.</span>
4 Wins, one edit and a hoo dat means "needs to be added". <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
I've never liked r4k. all those reasons listed are good reasons for removing r4k.
At least back before 3.0f the aliens kind of needed the extra res flow. now, with all the buffs they got, there is absolutely NO reason aliens should have r4k anymore. Look at all the ridiculously early hives/fades/onos coming out. Games are pathetically boring in almost all situations. Why?
Situations...
1) Marines are winning. This is due to a) 2 hive lockdown (safest in final, but BORING as hell, duh) or b) people team-stacked marines. Team stacking is never fun anyways.
2) Aliens are winning. Fun for the aliens for a little while, but soon you realize that it is so patheitcally EASY that there is no challenge in winning (especially with sensory first) and then marines get too frustrated and maybe f4.
Skulk buffs...good.
Free upgrades...good.
Alien res flow...way too much.
That's why people have suggested giving marines more res (either set amount or scaling with players) or slowing down alien res.
Removal of alien r4k is the perfect way to slow down alien midgame long enough for marines to actually tech up! I also think increasing the cost of the gorge would also help. Make killing those fattehs actually mean something again.
Comments
I thought the entire point of 3.0 was to de-emphasize the need for hives and place the emphasis of resource control.
I thought the entire point of 3.0 was to de-emphasize the need for hives and place the emphasis of resource control. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Hives are just a tad less important in 3.0f, but that's mainly because skulks are in general better now. However, one hive aliens still can't break a 2-hive lockdown, especially if they went sc first, and that second hive is necessary to deal with upgraded marine tech.
Marine have to rely on their ability to work together, and the NS development team is simply leaning on the fact that human beings across the world will all cooperate as one.
Aliens get to run amok and do their own thing. One Fade can be the mainstay of the entire alien team, and by the time he dies he has enough to go Fade again, or even Onos, at the 5 minutes mark of a bit less.
Marines require a substantial amount of work and conviction of the teammembers to win, in order to obtain victory. This has begun to decrease, decrease, and decrease even more... it's becoming hard for marines to pay attention to what the commander wants and when he wants it.
Can we control the dicipline of the human beings who play this game? No. Can we wish they listened? Sure, but that doesn't mean it's going to get done. People will just slap the "Teamwork" sticker on the marines and say "Hey, if they dont have it then too bad. Tough luck."
So going aliens means its more fun because you win more, and also because you can do almost whatever the hell you want except for when it comes to dropping chambers.
Marine needs leadership, they need cooperative teammates, and they need the ability to expand rapidly and hold those captures nodes for more than just a few minutes.
The precious time still wont save them if the aliens play it right. If the marines to manage to get a middle hive early and hold it, then the aliens need to have their higher life forms pressing that hive and get every other skulk to go after the rts, and drop the rts as quick as possible, then the aliens drop their own rts very quickly after that and the game is a res game. The marines will soon be destroyed by a lamed up map and the aliens higher life forms will thrive.
Marine have to rely on their ability to work together, and the NS development team is simply leaning on the fact that human beings across the world will all cooperate as one.
Aliens get to run amok and do their own thing. One Fade can be the mainstay of the entire alien team, and by the time he dies he has enough to go Fade again, or even Onos, at the 5 minutes mark of a bit less.
Marines require a substantial amount of work and conviction of the teammembers to win, in order to obtain victory. This has begun to decrease, decrease, and decrease even more... it's becoming hard for marines to pay attention to what the commander wants and when he wants it.
Can we control the dicipline of the human beings who play this game? No. Can we wish they listened? Sure, but that doesn't mean it's going to get done. People will just slap the "Teamwork" sticker on the marines and say "Hey, if they dont have it then too bad. Tough luck."
So going aliens means its more fun because you win more, and also because you can do almost whatever the hell you want except for when it comes to dropping chambers.
Marine needs leadership, they need cooperative teammates, and they need the ability to expand rapidly and hold those captures nodes for more than just a few minutes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's why Combat is so appealing
Anyways, what do you need to get weapons? What do you need to get upgrades? What do you need to get those '1337' fades? The answer for all these questions is simple: RESOURCES. You control the resources and you control the game.
If you are talking about public play (say 9v9) then an easy way to win is to have 2 marines cover each resource node that you cap. We all know that 2 marines can kill better than one (should be at least). After a minute or two you suddenly have shotguns/HMGs. Fade where? Oh, you must mean the one on the wall from my massive firepower.
Competivive play varies but still focuses on resources.
My synopsis: Holding hives was fine and dandy in 1.0x when they were worth holding. Let's <i>adapt</i> or else you might be the target of what I like to call Natural Selection.
Only time I ever see Marines win is when the alien team is absolutly horrible and not one player has a positive ratio. Marines have to so superior in knoweldge and skill in order to beat a decent alien team now.
I think the real problem with NS is that it's a game where there should be a focus on teamwork, but when you have extremely skilled players and poor players, it doesn't work at all. Skill levels need to be adjusted in order for the major problem to be fixed. There is the player isolation route such as Warcraft III or Halo, where people of similar levels can play each other, but I find that hard to imagine with NS. I can only hope the BUS solves this problem.
R4K could be another problem as it only rewards the killer. It might take a skulk to parasite, a lerk to spore and a gorge to lure, only to have a fade to swipe, but the reward of that teamwork only goes to the fade.
SDJason wins 2x as many games?
Aliens get crippled in large servers?
Game slows down a lot?
Res nodes become much more important?
More strategy?
Individual skill becomes less important?
exactly.
+ everything would come later, everything would be slower and thus more boring.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->SDJason wins 2x as many games?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hoo dat?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens get crippled in large servers?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> More servers with recommended numba of players = <span style='color:lime'>Win.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Game slows down a lot?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> make RTs give more
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Res nodes become much more important?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <span style='color:lime'>Win.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->More strategy?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <span style='color:lime'>Win.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Individual skill becomes less important?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <span style='color:lime'>Win.</span>
4 Wins, one edit and a hoo dat means "needs to be added". <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
At least back before 3.0f the aliens kind of needed the extra res flow. now, with all the buffs they got, there is absolutely NO reason aliens should have r4k anymore. Look at all the ridiculously early hives/fades/onos coming out. Games are pathetically boring in almost all situations. Why?
Situations...
1) Marines are winning. This is due to a) 2 hive lockdown (safest in final, but BORING as hell, duh) or b) people team-stacked marines. Team stacking is never fun anyways.
2) Aliens are winning. Fun for the aliens for a little while, but soon you realize that it is so patheitcally EASY that there is no challenge in winning (especially with sensory first) and then marines get too frustrated and maybe f4.
Skulk buffs...good.
Free upgrades...good.
Alien res flow...way too much.
That's why people have suggested giving marines more res (either set amount or scaling with players) or slowing down alien res.
Removal of alien r4k is the perfect way to slow down alien midgame long enough for marines to actually tech up! I also think increasing the cost of the gorge would also help. Make killing those fattehs actually mean something again.