Marine Weapons To Low Tech

rammsein · November 2002

I don't understand it the marines have sentry guns, teleports and all this high tech equipment but their weapons are so low tech. What year in the future is this suppose to be? The shotgun is still pump action and loaded a single shell at a time. The grenade launcher can only hold a 4 round magazine, the one on the OICW can hold more than that and it has a rifle and sight attached. I think something needs to be done with marine weapons to make them more high tech. Make the grenade launcher double barrel and fire 2 grenades at a time or something. Maybe the ability to change rate of fire on the LMG maybe add a grenade launcher or a shotgun upgrade to the LMG and have it as its secondary fire. Make the shotgun double barrel and magazine feed or somethine. Just seems like the weapons are pretty low tech compared to all the other weapons the marines have.

mouth · November 2002

The future of human technology is dictated by gameplay balance. Duh.

Fieari · November 2002

This isn't a weapons mod, it's a strategy mod. This isn't a realism mod, it's a gameplay mod. Realism is sacrificed daily in favor of fun. Powerful weapons are sacrificed in favor of forcing teamplay and strategic fighting. GLs are limited because this forces you to require a machine gunner as backup.

There's no scope because there's no secondary fire, and also, every room is too small for a scope to be at ALL useful.

You can't change rate of fire on guns because there's no reason to. See above. This is NOT a Realism Mod.

There is no secondary fire.

The tech is all explained, as well. Read the manual, and then come back and say the weapons haven't kept up. We have nanotechnology... and phase gate technology... and... not much more, actually. Just because those two items have been discovered doesn't mean that other things must have been as well. Laser weapons are actually less efficiant than good ole' iron, in most cases.

Remember, above all GAMEPLAY. Strategy, and Fun. Strategy, and Fun. Not realism, not powertripping, not feature packing. Simple. Easy to pick up (honestly, we have enough people asking how to build things as it is) and easy to get into... but difficult to master. The very definition of a good game.

rammsein · November 2002

Above all Gameplay. I think it would improve gameplay to be able to change the rate of fire of the LMG to slower and higher than it is now. I think it would be improve gameplay if they had magazine upgrades for the LMG to hold more than 50 rounds, I think it would improve gameplay if the shotgun was double barrel pump action. I think it would improve gameplay if the LMG had an upgrade where a shotgun or grenade launcher could be attached. Its little things like these that really improve gameplay experience. I am just curious why most the weapons don't have a secondary fire, because everyone that has played natural selection has played half-life, counter-strike, dod, etc. Its not like they don't know how to use secondary fire.

TychoCelchuuu · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ramms+ein @ Nov 19 2002, 12:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I think it would improve gameplay if the LMG had an upgrade where a shotgun or grenade launcher could be attached.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
And how, pray tell, would you <i>fire</i> these attachments? Magic? Pyschic hinting at your gun to force it to fire?

rammsein · November 2002

Ever heard of the master key? M4 with a shotgun attached below the barrel: <a href='http://www.ghostrecon.net/images_arms/masterkey_large_1.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.ghostrecon.net/images_arms/mast...key_large_1.jpg</a> or OICW. Didn't the rifle on starship troopers have a shotgun attached under the rifle barrel. I always thought that was cool as hell.

Skorne · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ramms+ein @ Nov 18 2002, 09:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I don't understand it the marines have sentry guns, teleports and all this high tech equipment but their weapons are so low tech. What year in the future is this suppose to be? The shotgun is still pump action and loaded a single shell at a time. The grenade launcher can only hold a 4 round magazine, the one on the OICW can hold more than that and it has a rifle and sight attached. I think something needs to be done with marine weapons to make them more high tech. Make the grenade launcher double barrel and fire 2 grenades at a time or something. Maybe the ability to change rate of fire on the LMG maybe add a grenade launcher or a shotgun upgrade to the LMG and have it as its secondary fire. Make the shotgun double barrel and magazine feed or somethine. Just seems like the weapons are pretty low tech compared to all the other weapons the marines have.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>maybe add a grenade launcher or a shotgun upgrade to the LMG and have it as its secondary fire.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I agree. The LMG should hae something like a 1 round secondary fire thingy which does extra damage but takes time to 'pump it up'. This, I think will help even the odds. But in the end it does come to the people who play.

folk · November 2002

no, not everyone who's playing ns has played counter-strike/day of defeat, or even half-life deathmatch. - there's no reason for a rate of fire switch. there's no reason for nade launchers nor shotguns on the lmg. want them? ask the commander. - bigger magazine on the lmg? get a heavy. - the weapons have no secondary fire because there's no <i>need</i> for secondary fire.

useless additions don't add to gameplay.

Fieari · November 2002

REPEAT: THERE IS NO SECONDARY FIRE.

Hm. I think I see the problem here, we must be speaking two entirely different languages. Let me try a translation.

1337 7r@n$l@+10n - OMG j0 su><0rz @r3 1D10+$!!!!11 lolololo ns pwnzz0rd t3h 2Nd f1r3!!111

I don't speak 1337 very well, so I hope I did that right.

Nordo · November 2002

To hell with what the weapons DO, think about how awsome a laser gun would LOOK. Imaging going rapid fire on a bunch of fades with a plasma gun (or should I say plasma FUN!).

As for wanting a rate of fire control, how many settings would even be useful? I'd just leave mine set to "fast" Firing one bullet at a time isn't going to impress the kharaa, and a burst setting isn't going to hit anything faster than an old lady. Super realism doesn't have much of a use in NS, and making weapons more powerful with shotgun magazines and double grenades would just result in a random, gibs flying type game. Plasma cannons and guns that shoot those little laser flacette things (think needle gun from halo), ooooohhh yes. Of course, then it would all start to look like unreal tournament...

-Nordo

Acrobad · November 2002

I'lll behave myself and say this once:

If you feel obligated, go play counter-strike.

All those <i>upgrades</i> you talk about are nothing but Alien nightmares.

Would someone think for those poor things? The Googley Gorges? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'>

And to reduce further Arguments: Flayra himself said that he bounded mouse2 to be the popupmenu and he intented it that way for a purpose. He didn't want secondary fire. So there will be no secondary fire. Period.

Fieari · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nordo @ Nov 19 2002, 03:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Of course, then it would all start to look like unreal tournament...</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Which we don't want.

rammsein · November 2002

Hey all I am saying is that we got weapons now in 2002 better than the weapons in natural-selection. This is suppose to be a futuristic SCI-FI mod with space ships, teleports and sentry guns it might be cool to add some futuristic features to the weapons. I'm done here. One more thing, its kind of funny how you can **obscenity** some of these people off so much just by stating your opinion/idea.

ZeroSaber · November 2002

rammstein, if you want secondary fire modes, changeable rates of fire, and additions to your weapons, go play FireArms.

Natural-Selection is a STRATEGY mod, about TACTICAL -GAMEPLAY-. Key word, GAME. If you want realism, go buy an M16 or AK47 and plink cans in your backyard.

There will be no secondary fire, no other attachments to weapons, and by the way, a MasterKey is just that. Master Key. SWAT teams use it to open doors, not blast off alien heads. Last I checked, TSA Frontiersmen were not SWAT officers.

Fieari · November 2002

Yes. Yes we do. But you know what? Do you think we care?

This is not a weapons mod. The point of this mod is not to have weapons. The point of this mod is not, interestingly enough, to run around and kill things. If it were, marines would have a frag scoreboard. No, the point of this mod include TACTICS and STRATEGY... almost to the exclusion of all else. Being a 1337 player won't actually help much, and this was how the game was designed. Although you do have to be able to walk around, and click the mouse... and so while your 9 year old sister probably couldn't handle it, you don't need much more than that.

Why?

Move in a group. Stand side by side, and when the aliens come at you, concentrate fire from three marines at once at the hallway. The guns aren't uber accurate for a reason. The bullets will spread and cover the entire hall... making that skulk a dead skulk. Not much aming required. Not much twitch skill required. Just teamplay and tactics.

Grenade Launchers don't have an attached gun for a reason. In real life, they have an attached machine gun becuase as we've discovered in NS, grenades aren't good for taking out fast moving targets. They're good for taking out solitary structures. In the army, they want a single soldier to have the capability to take on the role of any unit at any time. In NS, we want to force people to stick together. You have the GL... meaning you can sweep through OCs like they're speedbumps. But you need HMG backup to survive fades and skulks.

Grenades aren't double barreled because there is litterally no point. This isn't a weapons mod, and so there will not be two versions of the same gun, one merely being more powerful than the other. And if there's only one gun that fires two grenades... well, you're just increasing the fire power, right? And that upsets game balance. You could halve the damage each grenade does, making the explosion do the same amount as they do now... but then you realize, you've changed NOTHING except aesthetics.

There's no need to change rate of fire. Aliens move too fast... you'd always need to have constant stream mode on... and since you never change modes (or if you do, you die) there's no need to have it. If you made it so that having burst fire, the bullets did more damage... then you're rewarding rambos and twitch players. Which we don't want to do. Increasing your CS skill... indeed, increasing your skill in ANY OTHER FPS IN THE WORLD will not help you in NS... not much. We don't want it to help. We want TEAMPLAY and COOPERATION and TACTICS and STRATEGY to rule the day.

This ain't no action movie. This is a war movie. You know, the kind where half the squad or more gets wiped out before the ending credits, and each surviving member only lived through cooperation and teamwork and OUTTHINKING the enemy as opposed to out performing the enemy?

If you don't like it, go back to Quake, or Unreal, or CS, or even TFC. And leave us alone.

GoLambo · November 2002

Some of you people... Double Barrel Pump Action Shotguns?!? How would that even work may I ask? Please stop playing Quake. And as for the weapons now... Read the manual.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The TSA "Serieux" model shotgun shoots a cone of accelerated metal fragments. Up close, it has proven very effective against the Kharaa. The Serieux was designed by French covert ops for insurgency missions as a powerful, easy to use and manufacture weapon for rebel and guerrilla groups.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
So there you have it, the POINT of the shotgun is to be simple. And the rest of the weapons are "hi tech" enough as it is. I mean the LMG has a 50 round mag, how many weapons do you see with mags over 30?

The only thing that gets me is the 4 rounds on the GL. I mean, it just LOOKS like it can hold much more. I'd like to see it do less damage and hold more ammo if at all possible. If not, re-do the model!

Oh, and the OICW is satan. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Bronski · November 2002

Right now i think the weapons are fine.

I personally think the weapons should fire caseless rounds, but that doesn't really matter since the difference would be that you don't see the shell casings.

sender · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mouth @ Nov 18 2002, 09:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The future of human technology is dictated by gameplay balance. Duh.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
lol nice one. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

Discobird · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZeroSaber @ Nov 18 2002, 08:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>rammstein, if you want secondary fire modes, changeable rates of fire, and additions to your weapons, go play FireArms.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I second that motion. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

Nubi · November 2002

Ramms maybe it's like Star Wars, notice how they had teh double beamed sabers in Episode I? But later in Episodes IV - VI they didn't? It's because they had a great war which whiped out most of their technology and they only salvaged so much of it

Think of it like that, that the Kharaa took the Marines by surprise and ate most of their technology plans (I hear they're tasty with salt) so they don't KNOW how to attach a shotgun barrel to a LMG

But I always wonder, why does the LMGs skin have a scope on it? It just kinda bothers me

Woggy · November 2002

The games fine as it is.

Nubi · November 2002

yes but wouldn't that be a waste of resources? Sure one scope wouldn't cost that much but if they're mass producing them for standard issue to thousands of marines, that adds up quickly

So wouldn't it make more sense to just take the scope out of the schematics of the gun?

Thraka · November 2002

I always assume that when I'm shooting at things at long distance, the little jarhead I'm controlling is looking through the scope... after all, the lmg is fairly accurate at long ranges... Sometimes you just have to suspend your disbelief. Just b/c YOU don't use the scope, doesn't meant that your avatar in the game isn't. They just took the sighting part out b/c it would slow down the game for no good reason.

Of course, this doesn't explain why skulks see the inside of their mouths, but eh...

Shrike3O · November 2002

Who says it's a scope with any amount of magnification whatsoever? They DO make 1x scopes which serve other purposes... (red dot sight, anyone?)

Mouse · November 2002

In the NS universe the TSA is a reletivly low budget organisation who can't afford to have double barreled phone launchers of doom and other high tech weaponry. The lmg is the standard issue frontiersman weapon, it is designed to be used in many different situations, hence the scope.

Discobird · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><i>Kilmster wrote:</i>
<b>which are, in effect, reflective armor</b></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
<i>Reflective?</i> Sure you haven't been playing too much Mechwarrior 4? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><b>because of this, you need a special kind of projection to your bullet rounds; </b></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Projection?

CplHicks · November 2002

Poor Ramms+ein <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'>

I too do not see the need for a slower rate of fire on LMG.
But I miss a weapon for the Frontiersmen that actually can deal with fully upgraded Fades better.
When the Aliens have a healing chamber directly behind the doorway to base, and coming with a horde of Fades, its basically draw, til the Onos come. Then its a matter of time.
When the Aliens have all 3 hives, its basically over. Marines have no weapon capable of getting back to offense once a bunch of Onos start to pound the base.

Please, no comments like "when you let it come this far its your fault". Its not. Its correct, *normally* the Frontiersmen should deal with it in taking one hive before. But still, juts came back from a game where we relocated our entire base into a hive to prevent them Aliens getting all that nasty bioupgrades, especially Onos. Still we sucked, because we didnt get out there at all. Draw game ad infinitum.
Its just like, "they got all 3 hives, game over".

Maybe something like an ultraheavy MG would come in handy (read: Minigun), only carryable with powerarmor (read: ultraheavy armor).
Standard handgrenades is what I miss most, btw. "FRAG OUT!!!" <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>
And what annoys me most is the fact that planting Tripmines while an enemy trips them kills yourself.
Why cant you just Kamikaze them into the path of an Onos? Or plant them while facing to pay the ultimate price?? Like, you want to seal a doorway, knowing theres a Fade around the corner, spraying the room to pieces, and you jump in and place that bugger while dying (not from your mine, but from the Fade)??

Ok flame away!

Oh another idea, instead of adding new weaponry to the Frontiersmen, how about changing the acidstuff of the Aliens? Grenades travel an arc in the game, why not the acid and whateverstuffs they have? Except maybe the spikes of the flyboy. But acidblubs should fly in arcs. It would make it slightly more difficult to use.
Just a second thought.

Bravo · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GoLambo @ Nov 18 2002, 10:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The TSA "Serieux" model shotgun shoots a cone of accelerated metal fragments. Up close, it has proven very effective against the Kharaa. The Serieux was designed by French covert ops for insurgency missions as a powerful, easy to use and manufacture weapon for rebel and guerrilla groups.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

So there you have it, the POINT of the shotgun is to be simple.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
If that were true it wouldn't cost so freaking much.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

mlk · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The weapons are mass-produced, so they just leave the scope on.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I did not think the weapons were mass-produced, but created on demand from nanites, which would also explane the need for simplicity.

Personally I'd like to see the scope in use (either zoom, or for alt-vision), but not super-weapons (Lazers and the such like).

Doombringer · November 2002

The only change in the weapons I'd like to see is a few alternate models for when you have weapon or armor upgrades. It'd be cosmetic only. Otherwise, the weaps shouldn't have secondary or teritary firing modes or mix-and-match pieces. As cool as the 'Master Key' and similar weapons are, they don't belong in NS <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'>

Discobird · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><i>Kilmer wrote:</i>
<b>There are real-life 20th century tanks that utilize reflective armor. Hence, why bullets can't penetrate the hull ~_~</b></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I think you mean ablative armor, that is, armor that shears at steep angles to the path of the striking projectile, thus deflecting its energy in safer directions.

"Reflective" in the optical sense doesn't really make sense in this context...

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><i>Doombringer wrote:</i>
<b>As cool as the 'Master Key' and similar weapons are, they don't belong in NS </b></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Not to mention Masterkeys are used to open locks (and locked doors), and would have a little bit of trouble with the reinforced metal doors on the NS ships. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

Marine Weapons To Low Tech

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