You're Going To Hell
Grendel
All that is fear... Join Date: 2002-07-19 Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
All that is fear... Join Date: 2002-07-19 Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Closing your eyes isn't changing it</div> Assuming that your take the New Testament and Jesus to be a real, historical figure, Christians are in a bit of a pickle.
The teachings of Christianity are pretty much unequivocal about the necessary requirements to even begin to consider yourself a "good" person. The basics appear to be that you must confront evil wherever it stands. The defence that something has nothing to do with you is not valid. If I am aware that a person is being beaten senseless across the street from me, it is my duty to go and intercede. If that person then lifts his hand to me, I am to take my beating patiently, whilst waiting for an opportunity to try and bring this sinner into the bosom of God.
Some would disagree and say that it would be OK for me to step up and slap the aggressor down to protect his victim, a la "an eye for an eye". Fair enough, I can see God as described by varying parts of the bible as fitting either profile (how delightfully flexible).
What I don't recall reading anywhere (at least in my copy of the Bible), is the assertion that if something is too much trouble or effort, then I can shrug my shoulders and walk away. The alleged historical personage of Jesus is fairly consistent in his treatment of people who adopt the S.E.P. (Somebody Else's Problem: See THHGTTG) approach. His treatment of them is with utter contempt and relatively little patience (compared to other sinners).
Which brings me to my point (<b>at last</b>).
In the Western world, we all benefit directly from the suffering of around half a billion other human beings. From the uranium, oil and coal that's powering your PC right now, to the clothes you are wearing, we enjoy products that are based around the exploitation and dehumanisation of other human beings.
That notwithstanding, we constantly remain silent while evil takes place. We witness bullying in the playground, harassment on servers, casual violence on a Saturday night or general suffering in the actions and aspects of others.
We see old, lonely people who live alone, starved of comfort, love and companionship. We see mentally ill people, homeless people, prostitutes and drug addicts. We see neglect, abuse and poverty on our front door. We do little or nothing.
Essentially, almost every member of this forum allows evil and suffering to go unchecked whilst we focus on things like learning to bunnyhop or posting in an online discussion forum, all the time enjoying the fruits of other people's suffering. A weekly Bible class is not sufficient. God is a 168 hours a week, 52 weeks a year proposition. You don't even get Christmas Day off.
All of us have the time, resources, education and opportunities to help others. There are volunteer organisations, political parties, community projects, free trade organisations and similar initiatives which allow us to at least reduce the suffering which our priviledged Western existence causes. How many of us will join one of them and actually attempt to make a significant difference?
I don't recall Jesus ever saying it was OK to prioritise playing computer games over looking out for the welfare of others, yet there appears to be a general feeling that occasional lip service to the teachings of the Bible is sufficient to put you in reach of a shot of redemption.
Reality check: By the standards of Christianity, a skulk has a better chance of enjoying redemption than any of us. Get ready for your eternal reward boys and girls.
Discuss.
The teachings of Christianity are pretty much unequivocal about the necessary requirements to even begin to consider yourself a "good" person. The basics appear to be that you must confront evil wherever it stands. The defence that something has nothing to do with you is not valid. If I am aware that a person is being beaten senseless across the street from me, it is my duty to go and intercede. If that person then lifts his hand to me, I am to take my beating patiently, whilst waiting for an opportunity to try and bring this sinner into the bosom of God.
Some would disagree and say that it would be OK for me to step up and slap the aggressor down to protect his victim, a la "an eye for an eye". Fair enough, I can see God as described by varying parts of the bible as fitting either profile (how delightfully flexible).
What I don't recall reading anywhere (at least in my copy of the Bible), is the assertion that if something is too much trouble or effort, then I can shrug my shoulders and walk away. The alleged historical personage of Jesus is fairly consistent in his treatment of people who adopt the S.E.P. (Somebody Else's Problem: See THHGTTG) approach. His treatment of them is with utter contempt and relatively little patience (compared to other sinners).
Which brings me to my point (<b>at last</b>).
In the Western world, we all benefit directly from the suffering of around half a billion other human beings. From the uranium, oil and coal that's powering your PC right now, to the clothes you are wearing, we enjoy products that are based around the exploitation and dehumanisation of other human beings.
That notwithstanding, we constantly remain silent while evil takes place. We witness bullying in the playground, harassment on servers, casual violence on a Saturday night or general suffering in the actions and aspects of others.
We see old, lonely people who live alone, starved of comfort, love and companionship. We see mentally ill people, homeless people, prostitutes and drug addicts. We see neglect, abuse and poverty on our front door. We do little or nothing.
Essentially, almost every member of this forum allows evil and suffering to go unchecked whilst we focus on things like learning to bunnyhop or posting in an online discussion forum, all the time enjoying the fruits of other people's suffering. A weekly Bible class is not sufficient. God is a 168 hours a week, 52 weeks a year proposition. You don't even get Christmas Day off.
All of us have the time, resources, education and opportunities to help others. There are volunteer organisations, political parties, community projects, free trade organisations and similar initiatives which allow us to at least reduce the suffering which our priviledged Western existence causes. How many of us will join one of them and actually attempt to make a significant difference?
I don't recall Jesus ever saying it was OK to prioritise playing computer games over looking out for the welfare of others, yet there appears to be a general feeling that occasional lip service to the teachings of the Bible is sufficient to put you in reach of a shot of redemption.
Reality check: By the standards of Christianity, a skulk has a better chance of enjoying redemption than any of us. Get ready for your eternal reward boys and girls.
Discuss.
Comments
We constantly fail in achievieving all that we are meant to do and be. We are constantly being forgiven.
Hell is not what you think it is. Hell is the absence of God. If you have felt God in your life, then being away from him for eternity....really would be "Hell"
<span style='color:yellow'>If you don't like a topic, if you think "topic is dumb!!!" Then for the sanity of everyone else in the forum, DO NOT POST IN IT. I have no desire whatsoever to know what you think is dumb/smart. And I don't think anyone else here does, either.</span>
My point was that people consistently fail to even make the vaguest semblance of an effort to follow the teachings of Christ (which religious questions aside, make a fairly good ethical framework for a productive member of society), be they Christians or not.
I think most people's approach to Christianity is delusional (in terms of meeting strictures, I'm not discussing veracity of beliefs here) and so I felt that I would create a thread that challenged the notions of what it means to be a Christian in the context of being a wealthy Westerner.
Why is that dumb?
[EDIT]Capitalisation[/EDIT]
I think most people's approach to christianity is delusional (in terms of meeting strictures, I'm not discussing veracity of beliefs here) and so I felt that I would create a thread that challenged the notions of what it means to be a Christian in the context of being a wealthy Westerner.
Why is that dumb?
[EDIT]Capitalisation[/EDIT] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your right, most people dont try and dont care. I think much of it is that they dont really know what it Christianity really means. I can see how it is easy to get mixed up in so many lies about Christianity.
Many people claim Christ, but only to be socially acceptable. Many are lied to..."Jesus is here for you, for only $19.95"..."just be a good person and you will go to Heaven and be with the LORD". It is quite delusional.
I think most of us are spoiled by having the freedom of religion. The average westerner doesnt know what its like to practice Christianity in a country where it is the minority. Most of the Islamic countries are very harsh on Christians and are constantly pressuring them to convert. In fact, I think if the trend of Islam continues, it will be the the #1 religion in some odd years. I forget the exact number. Anyway, you can imagine that the people under oppression are not Christian for the sake of it, and to contrast the western world....we are spoiled. Thats why its so easy to shrug things off.
Its true. We see advertisements about children starving every day and we just dont give a ****. All of us see them and we think Christianity is a religion for OURSELVES. Everything is for us. Greed. Money. $20 bucks a month could save a child from starving, thats some movie rentals, couple packs of beer...
I'd like to finish/ rework this a little better, but im late for class.
P.S the dumb part was all the "hell" stuff. So its ok.
The teachings of Christianity are pretty much unequivocal about the necessary requirements to even begin to consider yourself a "good" person. The basics appear to be that you must confront evil wherever it stands. The defence that something has nothing to do with you is not valid. If I am aware that a person is being beaten senseless across the street from me, it is my duty to go and intercede. If that person then lifts his hand to me, I am to take my beating patiently, whilst waiting for an opportunity to try and bring this sinner into the bosom of God.
Some would disagree and say that it would be OK for me to step up and slap the aggressor down to protect his victim, a la "an eye for an eye". Fair enough, I can see God as described by varying parts of the bible as fitting either profile (how delightfully flexible).
What I don't recall reading anywhere (at least in my copy of the Bible), is the assertion that if something is too much trouble or effort, then I can shrug my shoulders and walk away. The alleged historical personage of Jesus is fairly consistent in his treatment of people who adopt the S.E.P. (Somebody Else's Problem: See THHGTTG) approach. His treatment of them is with utter contempt and relatively little patience (compared to other sinners).
Which brings me to my point (<b>at last</b>).
In the Western world, we all benefit directly from the suffering of around half a billion other human beings. From the uranium, oil and coal that's powering your PC right now, to the clothes you are wearing, we enjoy products that are based around the exploitation and dehumanisation of other human beings.
That notwithstanding, we constantly remain silent while evil takes place. We witness bullying in the playground, harassment on servers, casual violence on a Saturday night or general suffering in the actions and aspects of others.
We see old, lonely people who live alone, starved of comfort, love and companionship. We see mentally ill people, homeless people, prostitutes and drug addicts. We see neglect, abuse and poverty on our front door. We do little or nothing.
Essentially, almost every member of this forum allows evil and suffering to go unchecked whilst we focus on things like learning to bunnyhop or posting in an online discussion forum, all the time enjoying the fruits of other people's suffering. A weekly Bible class is not sufficient. God is a 168 hours a week, 52 weeks a year proposition. You don't even get Christmas Day off.
All of us have the time, resources, education and opportunities to help others. There are volunteer organisations, political parties, community projects, free trade organisations and similar initiatives which allow us to at least reduce the suffering which our priviledged Western existence causes. How many of us will join one of them and actually attempt to make a significant difference?
I don't recall Jesus ever saying it was OK to prioritise playing computer games over looking out for the welfare of others, yet there appears to be a general feeling that occasional lip service to the teachings of the Bible is sufficient to put you in reach of a shot of redemption.
Reality check: By the standards of Christianity, a skulk has a better chance of enjoying redemption than any of us. Get ready for your eternal reward boys and girls.
Discuss.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Three preminary points:<ul><li>This question presupposes three cornerstones of Christianity: there is an afterlife, there are multiple ways to spend it, and that for a particular individual the way it is spent is chosen either by the individual or by another force. From an Atheist point of view, the entire thread is pointless, since this is talking about specific religious beliefs.</li><li>The argument asks Christians to defend Christian beliefs; since this is a discussion of a specific religious point of view, religious text becomes not only valid but important to the defense of a position. It doesn't make much sense to say "defend Christian belief as you understand it without referencing Christian documents".</li><li>I don't believe topics like this are stupid. I actually believe that they are vital to forming a complete understanding of a religious viewpoint. If you never entertain arguments against your own position, how can you possibly know if what you believe is internally consistent? Logically valid? The idea that religion should never be challenged is a cornerstone in the formation of cults, and I personally believe that examination of both your own faith and alternatives to it is essential.
</li></ul>Background for the argument -- salvation requirements are another contested point under the umbrella of Christianity:<ul><li>Google "salvation by works" and "Grace".</li><li>If you want a Christian source for Christian beliefs on the subject, I'd recommend starting with the NT book of <a href='http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans;&version=31' target='_blank'>Romans</a>--<a href='http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=romans%208&version1=31' target='_blank'>chapter 8</a> talks about salvation requirements directly, and the entire book discusses the relationship between sin, righteousness, forgiveness, and salvation. The site I've provided has multiple translations available via a dropdown box--I've used its default of NIV for the link.
</li></ul><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My point was that people consistently fail to even make the vaguest semblance of an effort to follow the teachings of Christ (which religious questions aside, make a fairly good ethical framework for a productive member of society), be they Christians or not.
I think most people's approach to christianity is delusional (in terms of meeting strictures, I'm not discussing veracity of beliefs here) and so I felt that I would create a thread that challenged the notions of what it means to be a Christian in the context of being a wealthy Westerner.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have screwed up big several times in my life and if I were attempting to attain Heaven through virtue, I'd be completely hopeless. I should be constantly striving to fit the Christian definition of "good" but regularly fail--and I know that I will continue to fail due to my imperfect nature. Imperfection, however, is not exclusive to this time or culture <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->. I personally believe that no imperfect being can be "good" enough to reach heaven without help from God.
Truth. We are nothing and can do nothing without God.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Kind of makes me think he is purposely trying to start up trouble.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But isn't that the point?
TBH, some issues are just to big for one person to solve.
See all those "give us money so we can aid [group of people] from [country] who suffer greatly"?
Worthless.
They will do absolutely <i>nothing</i> to help those people, in the long run.
The only POSSIBLE way the situation could be fixed is if you get a whole group of people, and take control of the government by either political means or by force. You would then have to destroy damn-near everything and build/re-build a better system then the one that was in use before you got there. It's like drugs; the only way you can stop thousands of people from using is if you take out the drug dealers on the street, or the drug lords, or the farmers in some far-off country making the poison as a cash-crop.
Sure, i could abandon my life, go overseas, buy a AK47 w/ kevlar vest and thousands of rounds of ammo, but in the end, would i have solved more problems then i had made? And what if i had made more problems then i had solved, i'd have made the whole situation just that much more worse, for anyone and everyone involved. It's david and goliath, but this time i dont have a stone to throw, or the will to do it. What if goliath had a family? kids, even? And since he was a soldier (yes, i know, it's a fictional story, but still...) it could be presumed he had and would eventually protect people insead of kill them.
I can't just make a snap-descision and decide how i'm going to clean up after. That's how a Iraq is made. And making a Iraq definitely doesn't look like a good way to get into heaven, even if your intentions were to help the oppressed and downtrodden and stamp out a dictator with possible WMDs... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[now that i read what i've said, and read "evil wherever it stands. The defence that something has nothing to do with you is not valid" again, maybe the whole argument isn't about changing others, but yourself so that you dont f! up and screw someone else over. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<3 your posts...]
Or foster discussion. Did you not consider that might be my intention, given the title of this sub-forum?
However, if you've already stated that you can't follow the bible literally (and many including myself think the same thing) then why create a post based around some of the more untenable interpretations of the bible?
If I were a christian I'd take a common sense approach, that is, do what you can. There is no 11th commandment stating 'thou shalt don a cape and fighteth the evil doer'. There are no gospels where the disciples of god put on tights and beat up muggers in the street. Even Jesus himself doesn't heal everyone personally.
When god (supposedly) gave everyone free will he didn't want you to go around smiting everyone who used it to go against him despite how people interpret it.
You are to change what you have the power to change... WITHOUT it being ritual suicide...
To clarify:
On several occasions (if someone wants to leap in with a quote, go right ahead) in the gospels, Jesus is confronted with situations where people are allowing evil to take place by omission of action. He confronts them on each occasion and makes it clear that failure to take action when warranted constitutes just as big as sin as actively perpetrating evil. Most people would generally agree that failing to take action when you have the opportunity to prevent evil is to be complicit in the act.
This inconvenient fact seems to be incompatible with the basic Western lifestyle, which is actively based around the perpetration of evil for the benefit of our nations. Now I would agree that you'd need to be fairly hardcore to believe that anyone who doesn't sell everything and leave immediately for missionary work in central asia is an unredeemable sinner.
However, if you're not even going to go as far as buying everything you use from fair trade outlets (which is about as minimal a gesture as you can get), then you are definitely guilty of sin by omission of action. Realistically, you're actively sinning by sponsoring companies and governments who sponsor this kind of evil.
The salient points are these:
a) Western capitalistic driven society benefits from the suffering of others (indisputable)
b) As a member of that society you are complicit in this sinning (Open for debate...arguably)
c) By partaking in this dynamic, you make a mockery of any pretence of aspiration towards redemption (Open for debate)
Sinning is interchangeable in this context with ethics/morality/evil, so whilst whether it constitutes sin is merely a question for the faithful amongst us, the aspect of ethics can be debated by anyone.
Obviously, I'm quite happy to admit that I'm evil, but that's because it doesn't really have any negative consequences for me, since I'm an aetheist. I'm just wondering what everyone else thinks.
You're completely right though; the idea of someone getting to heaven through their own works is completely preposterous... Gee, I wonder who said that first...
Oh yeah, that's right, Jesus:
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am (F)the way, and (G)the truth, and (H)the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Paul elaborates:
<!--QuoteBegin-Romans 3+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Romans 3)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
No One is Righteous
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God. 12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[c] 13“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[d] “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[e]
14“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[f] 15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways, 17and the way of peace they do not know.”[g]
18“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[h]
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,<span style='color:red'><b>23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. </b></span>25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished– 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyone that says that you need to do good works to go to heaven and uses the Bible as an example is not only wrong, but is probably selling something.
To clarify:
On several occasions (if someone wants to leap in with a quote, go right ahead) in the gospels, Jesus is confronted with situations where people are allowing evil to take place by omission of action. He confronts them on each occasion and makes it clear that failure to take action when warranted constitutes just as big as sin as actively perpetrating evil. Most people would generally agree that failing to take action when you have the opportunity to prevent evil is to be complicit in the act.
This inconvenient fact seems to be incompatible with the basic Western lifestyle, which is actively based around the perpetration of evil for the benefit of our nations. Now I would agree that you'd need to be fairly hardcore to believe that anyone who doesn't sell everything and leave immediately for missionary work in central asia is an unredeemable sinner.
However, if you're not even going to go as far as buying everything you use from fair trade outlets (which is about as minimal a gesture as you can get), then you are definitely guilty of sin by omission of action. Realistically, you're actively sinning by sponsoring companies and governments who sponsor this kind of evil.
The salient points are these:
a) Western capitalistic driven society benefits from the suffering of others (indisputable)
b) As a member of that society you are complicit in this sinning (Open for debate...arguably)
c) By partaking in this dynamic, you make a mockery of any pretence of aspiration towards redemption (Open for debate)
Sinning is interchangeable in this context with ethics/morality/evil, so whilst whether it constitutes sin is merely a question for the faithful amongst us, the aspect of ethics can be debated by anyone.
Obviously, I'm quite happy to admit that I'm evil, but that's because it doesn't really have any negative consequences for me, since I'm an aetheist. I'm just wondering what everyone else thinks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dispute point a - yes, there are sections of western culture that take advantage of the down trodden - but to try to make that a staple of a capitalistic society is a gross overstatement. Rather, I would argue that a non-capitalistic society is more persecutive of its own people and others. Take (insert arab nation of choice here) for instance - where women are a commodity and all funds incoming to the country are immediatly directed to those in power.
Now I understand that this is an attempt to "trap" us Christians in sin - namely that of not careing for the people of the world... The arguement being that we "sponsor" the perpetrators of this evil.
In all honesty, I don't think that Jesus much cares for the affairs of worldy governments. After all, the people of his day tried to set him up as a political leader (to throw off the Romans) and he wouldn't go for it. Rather, he says that his kingdom is not of this world.
To press this line of argument even further, I say that it is not capitalism that is failing here - it is the governments that we work with. So far as I know, most of these businesses that are taking advantage of people are doing so within the realm of what is "legal". However, for our country to impose our laws on a company from another country would not be "legal" - that is a problem for that country to figure out - not ours.
I also contend that there is an element of blessing that follows around the word of God. For those countries that are most resistant - their blessing is lessened because of it. The Bible says that God rains on both the righteous and unrighteous, but for the righteous he has blessing in abundance... take it for what you will, but I see that as explaining a lot what is happening in the world.
Seriously, christians in the west, for the most part, don't even try. At all. Not even going so far as to donate the 80 cents a day that the christian children's fund asks for.
It can be argued - which is why many people pray for the sins they commit willfully, and also those they commit ignorantly.
It can be argued - which is why many people pray for the sins they commit willfully, and also those they commit ignorantly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But are you really repentant if you have commited the sin willfully?
It can be argued - which is why many people pray for the sins they commit willfully, and also those they commit ignorantly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But are you really repentant if you have commited the sin willfully? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is outside the scope of this argument, but sure... many sins are committed willfully that we ask forgiveness for.
eg - I get mad at something and yell at my wife (she isn't who I am mad at) - I willfully yell at her - but I can be forgiven for that sin and repent of it (try to do better next time).
Does that sin endanger my standing with God - not one bit.
I can guarentee I've caused more harm than good though, its an inescapable fact of life. I honestly try and put everyone elses needs before mine (and been told off for doing so but if everyone did that things would be better) but just through ignorance and misunderstanding I must have damaged a few people. I bet for every person Mother Teresa helped there has been a load of people who have been told 'see, if she can do it so can you, you're not good enough' even if the criticism comes from themselves.
Now I understand that this is an attempt to "trap" us Christians in sin - namely that of not careing for the people of the world... The arguement being that we "sponsor" the perpetrators of this evil.
In all honesty, I don't think that Jesus much cares for the affairs of worldy governments. After all, the people of his day tried to set him up as a political leader (to throw off the Romans) and he wouldn't go for it. Rather, he says that his kingdom is not of this world.
To press this line of argument even further, I say that it is not capitalism that is failing here - it is the governments that we work with. So far as I know, most of these businesses that are taking advantage of people are doing so within the realm of what is "legal". However, for our country to impose our laws on a company from another country would not be "legal" - that is a problem for that country to figure out - not ours.
I also contend that there is an element of blessing that follows around the word of God. For those countries that are most resistant - their blessing is lessened because of it. The Bible says that God rains on both the righteous and unrighteous, but for the righteous he has blessing in abundance... take it for what you will, but I see that as explaining a lot what is happening in the world.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, hadn't seen this :/
Sections? No, the whole of all human society is based on other peoples suffering, some more directly than others but that foundation is still there in whatever you do including church. So you can't do a lot about some of it but you can still do something so why aren't you?
You could argue that some societies are <i>more</i> obviously persecutive yes, but you have just admitted that yes, the society you live in currently does rely on peoples suffering. You blame the government? So why isn't everyone trying to fix it? Why are people still endorsing that government?
Blessing? Sorry but what are you on about? Could you explain that one a bit clearer as I honestly had no clue as to what you were saying.
Oh and why yell at your wife? Why get angry? Don't ask for forgiveness for actively sinning, just don't sin surely. You say try to do better next time but by talking like that you are actually saying that you won't do better next time, that it will happen again and that you'll never stop. How can you be forgiven for a sin you don't actually try and not do?
Glossed over how? One of my clarifications acknowledged his comment with regards to applicability. The other two were observations. I'm not going to refute them, they were obvious statements of fact which have no impact on my original post at all.
The only thing I can surmise you are driving at is the concept that we require God to redeem us, we cannot "fit a profile" and do it ourselves. Well duh, thanks for pointing out one of the central tenets of almost all religions. What on earth does that have to do with the point I'm discussing?
The only thing I can think you are driving at here is that our behaviour is irrelevant with regards our redemption and only the desire to be closer to god is a requirement for redemption.
If that's the case, then frankly Islamic fundamentalists are a lot more likely to achieve redemption than us. Their dedication and desire to be beloved of God is vastly more convincing than the majority of Christian lip service.
Finally - I love the way you glossed over the entirety of the question of whether one can profit from the suffering of millions and yet still hope that God will take you into the kingdom of heaven because you'd <b>really</b> like to go.
Ironically, priests with a similar outlook to yours are what originally snapped me out of my devotion and made me consider the real value of my faith. i.e. They started talking off at a tangent and didn't bother listening to what I asked either.
RE: Pepe
We live in a democracy. You have the power to boycott things you don't like. You have the power to agitate for change. Not choosing to try and change things for the better displays a blatant prioritisation of your own convenience over the health and life of others. I'm not saying that I blame anyone for being that way. I just think it's a bit delusional if they simultaneously want to pretend that they are a good person.
The behaviour of other nations is neither here nor there in this argument. If I stab someone and you've only punched someone, that doesn't make you a good person because what I did was more damaging.
The only thing I can think you are driving at here is that our behaviour is irrelevant with regards our redemption and only the desire to be closer to god is a requirement for redemption.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bingo. Though, it is needed to point out that to which God is also important. Christ provided the means for forgiveness on the cross, someone who ignores that and instead chooses to practice Shinto due to their desire to be close to God is going to be held accountable for their own sins, if indeed Christ was right about being God.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If that's the case, then frankly Islamic fundamentalists are a lot more likely to achieve redemption than us. Their dedication and desire to be beloved of God is vastly more convincing than the majority of Christian lip service.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would be true, if:
1) Islam is the true faith.
2) Islam required only faith for salvation (it requires works, 5 pillars of faith and the like.)
The second point is wrong unconditionally. As a Christian, you can guess my feelings about the first.
And yes, Christian lip service being all that's given as a physical reflection of faith is total crap, I agree with you. That doesn't mean that the people aren't saved, just that they aren't acting in the manner to which they've been called. Christians believe all those who ask for forgiveness through Christ not only get it, but also recieve an adoption as sons/daughters from God Himself. If we are this new self, then we should act like it. Not doing it won't bode well for us; we'll miss out on the other stuff God's offered us like the chance to lead a fulfilling life, but our security in our salvation is never touched.
EDIT: Comma splice.
but seriously, "god" knows that humans are not perfect, and that we'll make mistakes. that's why there is forgiveness, which, by god's grace, is given out like it's going out of style
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Now isn't that a convieniently comfortable way to look at it? I don't have to care, or do anything, or even care that I'm not doing anything, because even that sin is forgiven because, even though I don't act like it, I really really want to be redeemed through christ! Here we see the true Christianity: it has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with feeling comfortable with your imperfections whilst simultaneously providing a way by which you can believe that you are better then all those other imperfect slobs out there. Is it any wonder so many reject it?
All it costs is 80 cents a day to put your money where your mouth is, yet I doubt that very many of you are.
1) It's not just a want to be redeemed, but repentance and acceptance of Christ's work on the cross. Since they usually go hand in hand, the point is moot, but it's worth clarifying.
2) <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here we see the true Christianity: it has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with feeling comfortable with your imperfections whilst simultaneously providing a way by which you can believe that you are better then all those other imperfect slobs out there. Is it any wonder so many reject it?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am genuinely sorry if I have ever communicated that I think I, as a person, am better than you are. Anyone who believes that they are inherantly better than other people for being a Christian is missing the point; someone better than all of us took on the punishment for all our lowly actions, and we should act in a way that communicates that same love and self-sacrifice.
It's hard to see on here because of the degree to which I abhor arguments that draw from false assumptions that even if true wouldn't support the conclusion people try to make. But that's no excuse; remind me to act as I should in the future.
As for putting my money where my mouth is, though I don't mean to boast, last year of the $3200 I made working part time, $300 went to the <a href='http://www.iglworld.org/' target='_blank'>IGL</a>, earmarked for Tsunami Relief, $150 went to my church's general fund, and I threw in about $50 to my home church, paying for snacks, helping to chip in for some bibles, and other odd expenses. That also doesn't count the equivalent for the time I spend teaching at my church, or for the two weeks I spent in inner city Chicago two years ago doing work in soup kitchens and battered women's homes. (or the two weeks I'll spend on a reservation in Michigan this summer working with kids.)
Just because the majority of American Christians choose to deny Christ by their lifestyle doesn't mean we all do.
To clarify:
On several occasions (if someone wants to leap in with a quote, go right ahead) in the gospels, Jesus is confronted with situations where people are allowing evil to take place by omission of action. He confronts them on each occasion and makes it clear that failure to take action when warranted constitutes just as big as sin as actively perpetrating evil. Most people would generally agree that failing to take action when you have the opportunity to prevent evil is to be complicit in the act.
This inconvenient fact seems to be incompatible with the basic Western lifestyle, which is actively based around the perpetration of evil for the benefit of our nations. Now I would agree that you'd need to be fairly hardcore to believe that anyone who doesn't sell everything and leave immediately for missionary work in central asia is an unredeemable sinner.
However, if you're not even going to go as far as buying everything you use from fair trade outlets (which is about as minimal a gesture as you can get), then you are definitely guilty of sin by omission of action. Realistically, you're actively sinning by sponsoring companies and governments who sponsor this kind of evil.
The salient points are these:
a) Western capitalistic driven society benefits from the suffering of others (indisputable)
b) As a member of that society you are complicit in this sinning (Open for debate...arguably)
c) By partaking in this dynamic, you make a mockery of any pretence of aspiration towards redemption (Open for debate)
Sinning is interchangeable in this context with ethics/morality/evil, so whilst whether it constitutes sin is merely a question for the faithful amongst us, the aspect of ethics can be debated by anyone.
Obviously, I'm quite happy to admit that I'm evil, but that's because it doesn't really have any negative consequences for me, since I'm an aetheist. I'm just wondering what everyone else thinks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is, there are FEW times where we, the comman man, can actually do something short of violence...
I mean... what SHOULD we do? Tell them off...? LOL, like that'll do anything
And if someone hits me, I'll DEFEND myself using REASONABLE FORCE
I won't KILL them or break them unless they are trying to do equal to me... counter for counter, par for par, keep it on level and hold them off till they tire, then just walk away <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If we didn't exploit other humans, then we wouldn't have the luxuries we have today, but there wouldn't be anybody suffering. I'm happy with the way things are to be honest... I wouldn't give up these luxuries.