<!--QuoteBegin-Breakthrough+Apr 13 2005, 06:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Breakthrough @ Apr 13 2005, 06:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> One can't go to a non-existant place when he/she dies.
If we didn't exploit other humans, then we wouldn't have the luxuries we have today, but there wouldn't be anybody suffering. I'm happy with the way things are to be honest... I wouldn't give up these luxuries. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How happy with it would you be if you weren't lucky enough to be born in the west? --- <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem is, there are FEW times where we, the comman man, can actually do something short of violence...
I mean... what SHOULD we do? Tell them off...? LOL, like that'll do anything
And if someone hits me, I'll DEFEND myself using REASONABLE FORCE<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Presuming you are christian (why else would you be arguing that point, seeing as it is directed towards christians?), then you believe that the man quoted above is infalible, and that his word was recoreded accurately. Here he is, telling you right to your face what you should do, but you say you do otherwise. This would be alright, if you were truely sorry for it, and repentent, but I doubt taht you are. You probably don't even try to act as Christ would in your place. You are professing to believe in him yet rejecting what he stands for. In other words, you're a flipping hypocrite.
---
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I am genuinely sorry if I have ever communicated that I think I, as a person, am better than you are. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It doesn't matter if you've communicated it or not. I find it hard to believe that you don't consider yourself to be better then others (me, for example) at least some of the time. Christianity provides for this in a way most religions can't. That is, christianity says to you that your sins are forgiven, and you will be saved, even though you've sinned, continue to sin, and have little intention of trying to not sin. At the very same time, it says that those who aren't christian are going to hell.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just because the majority of American Christians choose to deny Christ by their lifestyle doesn't mean we all do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But the fact is that the majority of christians are acting this way, and whats worse is that so few of the christians who aren't are willing to tell them off. You'll never convince me that I should serve God, even if you somehow managed to convince me that the bible was 100% true (in fact, that would only make it worse), but you probably stand a decent chance of convincing other christians to change the way they act, and not just be part time believers.
The thing I find so scary about christians as a whole is not their beliefes, or that they can believe what they do (though people serving a being known to have ordered genocide is kinda scary), its that I, someone who has utterly rejected God, is a better christian then they are, except that I've rejected christ. All these christians against homosexual marriage (a non-issue ffs!), pro-war, pro-capital punishment, pro-greedy corporation, pro-killing doctors, pro-keeping (non criminal) people alive against their wishes, pro-religion in the law asshats have aparently never even read the book that describes the actions of the person they profess to be their savior.
BreakthroughTexture Artist (ns_prometheus)Join Date: 2005-03-27Member: 46620Members, Constellation
Christianity is a scary thing. It's blind faith, backed up by media. I think there's more Catholics in the world then non-religious people, and you know what? That is a serious problem.
There is no hell, there is no bad to come from our actions. When you die, your mind rots away with the rest of you. You don't think. It's like when you sleep, everything's dark, and you don't think.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Apr 13 2005, 10:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Apr 13 2005, 10:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I am genuinely sorry if I have ever communicated that I think I, as a person, am better than you are. Anyone who believes that they are inherantly better than other people for being a Christian is missing the point; someone better than all of us took on the punishment for all our lowly actions, and we should act in a way that communicates that same love and self-sacrifice.
...
Just because the majority of American Christians choose to deny Christ by their lifestyle doesn't mean we all do. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course you think you are a better person, just as we think we are. Athiests are blind heathens, doomed to hell for not recognising the obvious. Christians are gullible fools that can't face reality without a comfort blanket etc. Far worse has been said before too. People can't help thinking that because it is integral to the original belief. Besides which saying 'jesus is better than us but was always modest and so I should act the same and not mention my superiority' isn't the best way to say its not true <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
Not that I'm saying you are and I believe you didn't mean any of that negatively just as I <i>honestly</i> don't mean my first paragraph to be so... offensive. That's probably how it would be read though which isn't my intent at all.
Anyway, yes you are right when you say that there are plenty of true christians that share the christian lifestyle as well as the belief just as there are lots of athiests who live in 'sin' and have no morals. Unfortunately it reflects far worse on the christians. After all we athiests, by declaring our beliefs (or lack of) are simply stating that there isn't a god. To be a christian however includes a strict moral code and a list of what you should and shouldn't do. I find it amazing that people can seperate the christian faith from the christian life style, surely they should be the same thing?
As was said earlier, what does it mean when godless athiests act more christian than a christian does? When we have a moral code without need punishments and rewards and large stone tablets thrown at us to follow it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Breakthrough+Apr 13 2005, 07:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Breakthrough @ Apr 13 2005, 07:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There is no hell, there is no bad to come from our actions. When you die, your mind rots away with the rest of you. You don't think. It's like when you sleep, everything's dark, and you don't think. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Most of us dream. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> As the subconscious is to the mind, the soul is to the body.
And Skulkbait, you should know better than to generalize Christians by this point. Do <i>I</i> think myself better than everyone else? No. I don't even know anyone else's professed religion that I don't know to be in my Youth Group. I really don't care what religion my friends practice. I say we're all going to heaven if we actively try to be good people. Yes, even atheists. Being cynical and logical is never deemed a sin in the Bible, and in most cases I can hardly blame them for being atheists. Either they were brought up to never think about a God, or they were forced to think about God so much that they grew tired of Him. In neither situation did they have much choice in the matter. Same thing with people from nations where there really is one official religion; they don't have much of a choice when it comes to faith. Why would God judge them 'unclean' when they just did the best that they could given the circumstances?
Oh, and back to breakthrough for a sec: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Christianity is a scary thing. It's blind faith, backed up by media. I think there's more Catholics in the world then non-religious people, and you know what? That is a serious problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) All religion is based on blind faith. Christianity hardly set the record on that. 2) Catholicism is NOT the largest religion in the world.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Apr 14 2005, 01:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Apr 14 2005, 01:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Most of us dream. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> As the subconscious is to the mind, the soul is to the body.
And Skulkbait, you should know better than to generalize Christians by this point. Do <i>I</i> think myself better than everyone else? No. I don't even know anyone else's professed religion that I don't know to be in my Youth Group. I really don't care what religion my friends practice. I say we're all going to heaven if we actively try to be good people. Yes, even atheists. Being cynical and logical is never deemed a sin in the Bible, and in most cases I can hardly blame them for being atheists. Either they were brought up to never think about a God, or they were forced to think about God so much that they grew tired of Him. In neither situation did they have much choice in the matter. Same thing with people from nations where there really is one official religion; they don't have much of a choice when it comes to faith. Why would God judge them 'unclean' when they just did the best that they could given the circumstances? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't believe in a soul, the idea is pretty daft imo.
You don't think you're belief is the right one? You don't think that if everyone thought the same way you did the world would be a better place? Ok so there is no guarentee you are right but if you didn't think your ideas were worth listening too you wouldn't be posting in a discussion forum. You probably wouldn't be posting in any forum actually.
From an objective perspective am I better than others? No of course not, each one of us is as meaningless as the other. Subjectively? Hell yeah, my way of thinking is the only rational way and the only time I'm wrong is when I'm missing some information.
I'm an Athiest, I was brought up by my very devout Mom who strongly believed in a God, her belief was very important to her. She didn't force me to go to church, she didn't force her opinions on me, we didn't sit down and discuss it unless I wanted to. If I could believe then I would, I just don't have a single drop of faith inside me, I am completely incapable. I'm not bored of the idea as you can tell by the amount of times I've posted in these topics and the amount of research I've done on religion, quite the opposite in fact. I plan to bring my children up exactly the same way so that they are encouraged to think about what they believe in without forcing them down one particular path. I'd ask you not to generalise athiests but these things happen <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
God is our father. We usually refer to Him as "father," though in some sense of translation, and in deeper relations with the Almighty, we use words such as "pappa" or "daddy" to indicate a more intricate relationship. We look to Him for protection and nourishment, and so on.
Thought #1:
Now, relate this to yourself. If you ever had, will have, or currently have children, can you honestly stand before the world and say that you would sacrifice that child, and sentence that child to eternal damnation of any sort, for any reason? This is eternity now, not a slap on the wrist, not a "timeout." You will be consious and endure your worst fears forEVER. Hell, I can't say I'd wish that on my worst enemy. And if you can say that you'd send your child into that... well, you're either bursting with angst or you are quite different on a psycological scale than I am.
Thought #2:
Behavior and belief are quite subjective, and are confined to what knowledge is available, like a flower growing toward the only light source it has, we can only believe what we know or have manufactured. We can only act in the ways we know how to act. If all we know is murder, then all we can do is murder. How could you expect anyone to do differently? Would someone who died with only murder in his thoughts consider our version of Heaven Hell? Even Heaven can be relative, so maybe the afterlife is nothing more than what we've known all our lives.
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+Apr 13 2005, 09:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast @ Apr 13 2005, 09:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Apr 14 2005, 01:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Apr 14 2005, 01:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Most of us dream. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> As the subconscious is to the mind, the soul is to the body.
And Skulkbait, you should know better than to generalize Christians by this point. Do <i>I</i> think myself better than everyone else? No. I don't even know anyone else's professed religion that I don't know to be in my Youth Group. I really don't care what religion my friends practice. I say we're all going to heaven if we actively try to be good people. Yes, even atheists. Being cynical and logical is never deemed a sin in the Bible, and in most cases I can hardly blame them for being atheists. Either they were brought up to never think about a God, or they were forced to think about God so much that they grew tired of Him. In neither situation did they have much choice in the matter. Same thing with people from nations where there really is one official religion; they don't have much of a choice when it comes to faith. Why would God judge them 'unclean' when they just did the best that they could given the circumstances? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't believe in a soul, the idea is pretty daft imo.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The soul is no more an abstract concept than the subconsciuos, though every time you dream you know you have one. Well, every time we pray, we know we have a soul. There really isn't much you can say to dissuade us of that particular fact.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You don't think you're belief is the right one? You don't think that if everyone thought the same way you did the world would be a better place? Ok so there is no guarentee you are right but if you didn't think your ideas were worth listening too you wouldn't be posting in a discussion forum. You probably wouldn't be posting in any forum actually.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course the world wouldn't be a better place if everyone believed the same thing. That'd be boring as Hell. And mostly I post in this forum because I was tired of all Christians being construed as anti-science, anti-logic, and basically anti-everyone-else. I believe my ideas are worth listening to, but at the same time I only say them; I don't pressure anyone else to share my faith, or even my particular views on my faith. I just know that I am always on the lookout for interesting new views on life, so I assume that there are others out there searching for new perspectives as well. It would be selfish of me not to throw my own take on faith into the shared pool of ideas, in the hopes that someone reads and agrees with it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From an objective perspective am I better than others? No of course not, each one of us is as meaningless as the other. Subjectively? Hell yeah, my way of thinking is the only rational way and the only time I'm wrong is when I'm missing some information.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you're an existentialist then? I'm sorry, we're just studying Camus in English and that statement reminded me of his work.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm an Athiest, I was brought up by my very devout Mom who strongly believed in a God, her belief was very important to her. She didn't force me to go to church, she didn't force her opinions on me, we didn't sit down and discuss it unless I wanted to. If I could believe then I would, I just don't have a single drop of faith inside me, I am completely incapable. I'm not bored of the idea as you can tell by the amount of times I've posted in these topics and the amount of research I've done on religion, quite the opposite in fact. I plan to bring my children up exactly the same way so that they are encouraged to think about what they believe in without forcing them down one particular path. I'd ask you not to generalise athiests but these things happen <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fair enough, I seem to have forgotten the (quite numerous) portion of this forum that has tried to find God, but simply can't for some reason. I understandably can't really relate, but I do apologize for overlooking that particular reason for being an atheist.
<!--QuoteBegin-Breakthrough+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Breakthrough)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think there's more Catholics in the world then non-religious people, and you know what? That is a serious problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) Catholicism is NOT the largest religion in the world.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Catholicism isn't a religion. Christianity is the largest religion in the world. <a href='http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html' target='_blank'>http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The soul is no more an abstract concept than the subconsciuos, though every time you dream you know you have one. Well, every time we pray, we know we have a soul. There really isn't much you can say to dissuade us of that particular fact. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The subconscious is based upon chemical reactions in the brain. A soul is based upon religious belief. A soul is more abstract than the subconscious is.
He said there were more Catholics in the world than atheists/agnostics, which is definitely not true. And religion, sect, it hardly makes a difference. There are sects of Christianity that resemble Catholicism about as much as Judaism does.
And as for the subconsciuos being based on chemical reactions, can you tell me exactly what reaction will lead to a dream about a dancing penguin wearing a red trenchcoat and tights? No? There is some aspect of the subconscious that will never be understood by science; it's simply too complex a concept, and it relies too much on randomness to really be concretely defined by science. So while it <u>does</u> lie closer to the realm of logic than the soul, it's not <u>that</u> far removed. Some people are not aware of possessing a subconscious (namely, they don't dream), just as some people are not aware of possessing a soul.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Apr 13 2005, 11:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Apr 13 2005, 11:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And as for the subconsciuos being based on chemical reactions, can you tell me exactly what reaction will lead to a dream about a dancing penguin wearing a red trenchcoat and tights? No? There is some aspect of the subconscious that will never be understood by science; it's simply too complex a concept, and it relies too much on randomness to really be concretely defined by science. So while it <u>does</u> lie closer to the realm of logic than the soul, it's not <u>that</u> far removed. Some people are not aware of possessing a subconscious (namely, they don't dream), just as some people are not aware of possessing a soul. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Can you give me a reason why we won't eventually be able to determine exactly what's going on in the brain? I don't see anything about it that is too complex and random. 100 years ago, they would have told you that it is impossible to wirelessly take a 3D image of the brain, but yet, we have MRI machines today. All it would take would be advances in technology.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Apr 13 2005, 09:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Apr 13 2005, 09:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The soul is no more an abstract concept than the subconsciuos, though every time you dream you know you have one. Well, every time we pray, we know we have a soul. There really isn't much you can say to dissuade us of that particular fact. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, praying shows with solid evidence that souls exist!!! ::rolleyes::
The only reason why a soul was dreamed up is because your brain is not self-aware.
There's no such thing as a soul
As to having faith in Christianity: Why choose Christianity? As opposed to Islam? Buddhism? Because you were brought up a Christian and you live in a predominantly Christian country. If you were born in the middle east do you honestly think you'd still be Christian? No, you'd be Muslim.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
Nad. Chill.
Your militant atheism is a bit off topic here. Start a thread on sexual politics or something man. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
"Anyone who sets himself up as "religious" by talking a good game is self-deceived. This kind of religion is hot air and only hot air. Real religion, the kind that passes muster before God the Father, is this: Reach out to the homeless and loveless in their plight, and guard against corruption from the godless world."
- James 1:26,27 (The Message Remix)
I think you bring up a good point, most American christians today don't talk about this passage or what we are to do about entertainment. I think most christians agree that God would like us to enjoy our short lives on this earth but our main goal is to help others enjoy their short lives... even if that makes our lives not so enjoyable... hmm...
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Apr 14 2005, 02:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Apr 14 2005, 02:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The soul is no more an abstract concept than the subconsciuos, though every time you dream you know you have one. Well, every time we pray, we know we have a soul. There really isn't much you can say to dissuade us of that particular fact. - Of course the world wouldn't be a better place if everyone believed the same thing. That'd be boring as Hell. And mostly I post in this forum because I was tired of all Christians being construed as anti-science, anti-logic, and basically anti-everyone-else. I believe my ideas are worth listening to, but at the same time I only say them; I don't pressure anyone else to share my faith, or even my particular views on my faith. I just know that I am always on the lookout for interesting new views on life, so I assume that there are others out there searching for new perspectives as well. It would be selfish of me not to throw my own take on faith into the shared pool of ideas, in the hopes that someone reads and agrees with it. - So you're an existentialist then? I'm sorry, we're just studying Camus in English and that statement reminded me of his work. - Fair enough, I seem to have forgotten the (quite numerous) portion of this forum that has tried to find God, but simply can't for some reason. I understandably can't really relate, but I do apologize for overlooking that particular reason for being an atheist. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wasn't going to try and dissuade you, the soul is part of the whole faith thing and there is no proof for or against it. Things like prayer for me prove that there is no god and no soul, just as much as prayer solidifies your own belief that they do exist.
The reason christians are seen as anti-science, anti-logic and anti-everyone-else is because: Faith in god is completely irrational and illogical. Science repeatedly comes up with alternate explanations for things traditionally ascribed to god and those explanations make far more sense i.e. Evolution. Christianity has always been a pretty militant faith that forces its ideals upon others, just look at the world today, look at all the history we've had.
That isn't to say all christians are the same but certain beliefs go hand in hand with certain types of behaviour. I'm not accusing you or anyone else of trying to convert me but there is a reason why you believe the things you do. You wouldn't believe in god if you knew/felt that the idea was wrong would you. Which means of course that when you 'share' your ideas with everyone else you are telling them what is right, how the world truly is. Of course, you realise that everyone else feels the same way about their own ideas so you don't actively go into it thinking you'll convert anyone or even plan to, you just want to enjoy the discussion. You still can't help feeling that your perspective is the right one though, its natural.
Sorry but if everyone thought the same way the world wouldn't be boring at all, we all actively try and find others that think the same way. People go to church, to political rallies, to internet forums etc to find others who feel the same way. Besides, even if it was boring, would it still not be better? With no fighting, no stupidity, no misunderstanding? You would automatically treat others as you want to be treated and we'd all finally be happy.
I'm an existentialist?... Well I do share a lot of the same views and when I first read Sartre I was amazed that so many of the things I thought about had been written about yes. I'm not sure if I fit exactly inside any one catergory though. I've heard good things about Camus but never read anything by him unfortunately.
No need to apologise, its always easy to forget that not every person on the other side has been brainwashed. We just tend to think it because then we can say 'any sane person, if given the chance, would believe what we do'.
[Edit] Why is it that no matter how hard I check it first there is always a typo, I'm sure there are others but I'll never spot them[/Edit]
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Apr 14 2005, 12:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Apr 14 2005, 12:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Apr 13 2005, 09:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Apr 13 2005, 09:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The soul is no more an abstract concept than the subconsciuos, though every time you dream you know you have one. Well, every time we pray, we know we have a soul. There really isn't much you can say to dissuade us of that particular fact. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, praying shows with solid evidence that souls exist!!! ::rolleyes::
The only reason why a soul was dreamed up is because your brain is not self-aware.
There's no such thing as a soul <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How can you profess to be an authority on something that requires belief where you have none. You can't say that I don't have a soul, for the simple reason that I CAN say that I have a soul, and there's not a damn thing you can do to prove me wrong. Dreams exist because I create them with my mind. The proof is in the action. Souls exist because I feel mine every time I pray. The proof is in the action.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As to having faith in Christianity: Why choose Christianity? As opposed to Islam? Buddhism? Because you were brought up a Christian and you live in a predominantly Christian country. If you were born in the middle east do you honestly think you'd still be Christian? No, you'd be Muslim.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Damn straight, which is why IF YOU WERE PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING YOU WOULD SEE THAT I DON'T CARE WHAT RELIGION YOU PRACTICE, BECAUSE IT OFTEN ISN'T A CHOICE.
Christ, you think all Christians are elitist douchebags with no respect for anyone else's ideas or beliefs, yet you just blatantly ignore me when I said that no religion is better in God's eyes than any other. I'm starting to believe that your hatred towards religion is a direct result of you <i>wanting</i> religion to be seen as evil, because it's just so much easier to argue against something you can demonize.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can you give me a reason why we won't eventually be able to determine exactly what's going on in the brain? I don't see anything about it that is too complex and random. 100 years ago, they would have told you that it is impossible to wirelessly take a 3D image of the brain, but yet, we have MRI machines today. All it would take would be advances in technology.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I seem to recall a statement concerning our brain's ability to understand itself. Basically, it was along the lines of, "The more advanced our brains become, the harder it will be to understand our own brain. Our brain will never be smart enough to understand itself."
But really, the answer is because the activities of the brain are at least as dependant on random chance as on known chemical reactions, and so while we may be able to create partially accurate models of what <i>most likely</i> would happen in a brain, we'll never be able to fully grasp how it works. Like the definite uncertainty inherent in locating and tracking electrons; some things just can't be done no matter how advanced our technology becomes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How can you profess to be an authority on something that requires belief where you have none. You can't say that I don't have a soul, for the simple reason that I CAN say that I have a soul, and there's not a damn thing you can do to prove me wrong. Dreams exist because I create them with my mind. The proof is in the action. Souls exist because I feel mine every time I pray. The proof is in the action.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Souls exist because you can feel them when you pray? The Brain's chemistry changes in a specific way during deep prayer. They've hooked up Buddhist monks and Catholic nuns to MRI machines and they've studied what the brain does when someone is praying. It's a scientific phenomenon. That's probably what you're feeling. There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that what you're feeling is a soul.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I seem to recall a statement concerning our brain's ability to understand itself. Basically, it was along the lines of, "The more advanced our brains become, the harder it will be to understand our own brain. Our brain will never be smart enough to understand itself."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's twisted logic. We can build computers and machines that are so complex that we will never be able to understand them fully. So how can we possibly create computers, when we aren't smart enough to understand them fully? It's simple, we can use technology that understands systems so complex that our brain can't understand them by itself.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But really, the answer is because the activities of the brain are at least as dependant on random chance as on known chemical reactions, and so while we may be able to create partially accurate models of what most likely would happen in a brain, we'll never be able to fully grasp how it works. Like the definite uncertainty inherent in locating and tracking electrons; some things just can't be done no matter how advanced our technology becomes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess you're right. We'll never be able to completely, 100% understand every single part of the brain, all the way down to subatomic particles. But we will eventually be able to understand the vast majority of the brain. If you want to call the remaining aspects of a brain a soul, then go ahead, but you're leaping to a conclusion that isn't supported by the facts.
I understand that we are supposed to live life like Christ would, but how can we go about doing that? We are all busy. We all have jobs, a family and other things to take care of, and trying to go around helping homeless people is not exactly at the top of some of our lists of things to do. I don;t see how you can go and do all that God asks unless you don't sleep or eat.
<!--QuoteBegin-BaconTheory+Apr 14 2005, 02:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BaconTheory @ Apr 14 2005, 02:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I understand that we are supposed to live life like Christ would, but how can we go about doing that? We are all busy. We all have jobs, a family and other things to take care of, and trying to go around helping homeless people is not exactly at the top of some of our lists of things to do. I don;t see how you can go and do all that God asks unless you don't sleep or eat. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you just answered your own question.
theclam, what makes you think I'm trying to use science to prove that there is such a thing as a soul? I was just using the example that it's like a subconscious because it's the closest thing I can think of to describe it. Of course it's not exactly the same, it was a metaphor, and by design metaphors never show exact equivalents.
Also, what electronics system are you looking at that is so complex you can't understand it? You flip the switch, the electricity runs through it, simple. People write programs which then run on your machine, simple. There's nothing random about what happens, I could execute the same command over and over and over on the same machine and, provided there are no bugs or viruses, the same exact thing will happen each time. You can't say that will happen with a brain. The same exact stimuli will not always produce the same effects in people, because there's a degree of randomness built in.
And no, the parts of the brain we don't understand do not comprise the soul. The soul is not part of the body; you could say it is inside the body while living, but being as it is as much a part of this physical plane as angels and Heaven, you'd be hard-pressed to detect it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Apr 14 2005, 01:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Apr 14 2005, 01:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How can you profess to be an authority on something that requires belief where you have none. You can't say that I don't have a soul, for the simple reason that I CAN say that I have a soul, and there's not a damn thing you can do to prove me wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What?
Okay, I'm a woman. You can't prove me wrong.
If souls don't exist, the only way anyone could ever <i>not</i> prove you wrong is if you admit that souls are just a mental construct, which means that what you're feeling is something constructed by your mind and therefore, your entire argument is undermined.
<!--QuoteBegin-CForrester+Apr 14 2005, 04:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CForrester @ Apr 14 2005, 04:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Apr 14 2005, 01:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Apr 14 2005, 01:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How can you profess to be an authority on something that requires belief where you have none. You can't say that I don't have a soul, for the simple reason that I CAN say that I have a soul, and there's not a damn thing you can do to prove me wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What?
Okay, I'm a woman. You can't prove me wrong.
If souls don't exist, the only way anyone could ever <i>not</i> prove you wrong is if you admit that souls are just a mental construct, which means that what you're feeling is something constructed by your mind and therefore, your entire argument is undermined. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Considering I can't see you, I'd have a tough time proving you a man, or even saying with confidence that you are one. I believe it was Nem0 who declared, "This is the Internet. Gender is optional."
But, if you were standing before me, I could physically disprove that statement. "Man" and "woman" are defined and understood by everyone, therefore I can prove that you do not fit the definition of a woman. However, as you do not believe in faith, you have no definition of it, and therefore have no way of disproving it.
And what if the sould is constructed of the mind? It's not any more logical that a piece of your subconscious survive after death, rather than one's spiritual body, so even if I did say that the soul was a construct of the mind you'd have to disagree with me.
Furthermore, I'm not really arguing here. I'm stating my belief. There is no argument to undermine. I'm also stating that you can't really change my belief. I'm being rather obnoxious really, but then again so are you for trying to change my personal beliefs simply because they don't make sense to you.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Apr 13 2005, 10:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Apr 13 2005, 10:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> First off, the "going to hell" aspect is just the "hook" for my post. The "sizzle" if you will. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> *roll eyes* <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> Yes and we should <i>all</i> know by now that you are self-proclaimed to be good at manipulating people.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Considering I can't see you, I'd have a tough time proving you a man, or even saying with confidence that you are one. I believe it was Nem0 who declared, "This is the Internet. Gender is optional."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And that was because of me and somebody else and I was like confused about this person being a guy or a girl. I forget where to topic was. Do you remember?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Souls exist because you can feel them when you pray? The Brain's chemistry changes in a specific way during deep prayer. They've hooked up Buddhist monks and Catholic nuns to MRI machines and they've studied what the brain does when someone is praying. It's a scientific phenomenon. That's probably what you're feeling. There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that what you're feeling is a soul.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> While I agree with you, I do believe there are souls. For me, <span style='color:green'><b>anything has a soul if it is loved and can love in return</b></span>. It doesn't even have to be a biological creature to have a soul. No I can't prove it, but then again faith is there to explain the unknown.
To everyone: Why oh why do so many people place science and religion as opposites?! I think they complement each other well and both have the same goal. The more we learn with science the more amazing the world seems and the more we are able to grow spiritually. As science explores, religion grows. As a matter of fact, the more we learn through science the more questions and unkowns there are for faith to help us out.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Apr 14 2005, 05:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Apr 14 2005, 05:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-CForrester+Apr 14 2005, 04:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CForrester @ Apr 14 2005, 04:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Apr 14 2005, 01:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Apr 14 2005, 01:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How can you profess to be an authority on something that requires belief where you have none. You can't say that I don't have a soul, for the simple reason that I CAN say that I have a soul, and there's not a damn thing you can do to prove me wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What?
Okay, I'm a woman. You can't prove me wrong.
If souls don't exist, the only way anyone could ever <i>not</i> prove you wrong is if you admit that souls are just a mental construct, which means that what you're feeling is something constructed by your mind and therefore, your entire argument is undermined. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Considering I can't see you, I'd have a tough time proving you a man, or even saying with confidence that you are one. I believe it was Nem0 who declared, "This is the Internet. Gender is optional."
But, if you were standing before me, I could physically disprove that statement. "Man" and "woman" are defined and understood by everyone, therefore I can prove that you do not fit the definition of a woman. However, as you do not believe in faith, you have no definition of it, and therefore have no way of disproving it.
And what if the sould is constructed of the mind? It's not any more logical that a piece of your subconscious survive after death, rather than one's spiritual body, so even if I did say that the soul was a construct of the mind you'd have to disagree with me.
Furthermore, I'm not really arguing here. I'm stating my belief. There is no argument to undermine. I'm also stating that you can't really change my belief. I'm being rather obnoxious really, but then again so are you for trying to change my personal beliefs simply because they don't make sense to you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Fair enough, I don't think I understood what you meant. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I wasn't trying to change your beliefs, though, just questioning them. Trying to get you to explain to me, so that I might be able to understand them and maybe make sense out of them.
<!--QuoteBegin-the x5+Apr 14 2005, 06:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (the x5 @ Apr 14 2005, 06:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Considering I can't see you, I'd have a tough time proving you a man, or even saying with confidence that you are one. I believe it was Nem0 who declared, "This is the Internet. Gender is optional."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And that was because of me and somebody else and I was like confused about this person being a guy or a girl. I forget where to topic was. Do you remember? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, you couldn't figure out if Quanaut was a boy or a girl <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And I'm pretty sure I just spelled his name wrong...
And CForrester, I think I meant that "you're trying to change my personal beliefs" statement to be more directed at Nadagast than you.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Apr 14 2005, 07:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Apr 14 2005, 07:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah, you couldn't figure out if Quanaut was a boy or a girl <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah yes now I remember! Come to think of it, because of Nem0's interjection I never did find out the answer... and actually I think it was my topic. Yeah that's right I created a topic where people could volunteer some info like age and gender.
<!--QuoteBegin-the x5+Apr 14 2005, 11:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (the x5 @ Apr 14 2005, 11:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No I can't prove it, but then again faith is there to explain the unknown.
To everyone: Why oh why do so many people place science and religion as opposites?! I think they complement each other well and both have the same goal. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Simple, because while faith explains the unknown we eventually find the real reason out and then science takes that explanation away.
Faith was a lot more powerful when gods pushed the sun across the sky. At some point there will come a time when we have a scientific explanation for so much that you literally have to specialise in one subject in order to discover the unknown. That is when faith will literally become "I believe there is a god because err... because I do" and you won't be able to point at the unknowables and say its proof of god.
When we finally work out how to create universes, when we map our brain so we know that the rapture is a self induced state and we can feel it at anytime we want... science and religion are against each other in this regard.
Religion is a) a comfort blanket and b) an explanation of the unknowable. When b) is removed religion will lose a lot of what makes it powerful. Especially as part of the comfort comes from being able to explain the unknowable.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-BaconTheory+Apr 14 2005, 08:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BaconTheory @ Apr 14 2005, 08:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I understand that we are supposed to live life like Christ would, but how can we go about doing that? We are all busy. We all have jobs, a family and other things to take care of, and trying to go around helping homeless people is not exactly at the top of some of our lists of things to do. I don;t see how you can go and do all that God asks unless you don't sleep or eat. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There are plenty of people who do volutary work. Alternatively, you could live and work as a volunteer for an organisation that will feed and house you. If you've decided to have a family and plug into Western civilisation, you're unlikely to want to give it up now.
Comments
If we didn't exploit other humans, then we wouldn't have the luxuries we have today, but there wouldn't be anybody suffering. I'm happy with the way things are to be honest... I wouldn't give up these luxuries. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How happy with it would you be if you weren't lucky enough to be born in the west?
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<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem is, there are FEW times where we, the comman man, can actually do something short of violence...
I mean... what SHOULD we do? Tell them off...? LOL, like that'll do anything
And if someone hits me, I'll DEFEND myself using REASONABLE FORCE<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Presuming you are christian (why else would you be arguing that point, seeing as it is directed towards christians?), then you believe that the man quoted above is infalible, and that his word was recoreded accurately. Here he is, telling you right to your face what you should do, but you say you do otherwise. This would be alright, if you were truely sorry for it, and repentent, but I doubt taht you are. You probably don't even try to act as Christ would in your place. You are professing to believe in him yet rejecting what he stands for. In other words, you're a flipping hypocrite.
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<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I am genuinely sorry if I have ever communicated that I think I, as a person, am better than you are. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't matter if you've communicated it or not. I find it hard to believe that you don't consider yourself to be better then others (me, for example) at least some of the time. Christianity provides for this in a way most religions can't. That is, christianity says to you that your sins are forgiven, and you will be saved, even though you've sinned, continue to sin, and have little intention of trying to not sin. At the very same time, it says that those who aren't christian are going to hell.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Just because the majority of American Christians choose to deny Christ by their lifestyle doesn't mean we all do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But the fact is that the majority of christians are acting this way, and whats worse is that so few of the christians who aren't are willing to tell them off. You'll never convince me that I should serve God, even if you somehow managed to convince me that the bible was 100% true (in fact, that would only make it worse), but you probably stand a decent chance of convincing other christians to change the way they act, and not just be part time believers.
The thing I find so scary about christians as a whole is not their beliefes, or that they can believe what they do (though people serving a being known to have ordered genocide is kinda scary), its that I, someone who has utterly rejected God, is a better christian then they are, except that I've rejected christ. All these christians against homosexual marriage (a non-issue ffs!), pro-war, pro-capital punishment, pro-greedy corporation, pro-killing doctors, pro-keeping (non criminal) people alive against their wishes, pro-religion in the law asshats have aparently never even read the book that describes the actions of the person they profess to be their savior.
There is no hell, there is no bad to come from our actions. When you die, your mind rots away with the rest of you. You don't think. It's like when you sleep, everything's dark, and you don't think.
...
Just because the majority of American Christians choose to deny Christ by their lifestyle doesn't mean we all do. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course you think you are a better person, just as we think we are. Athiests are blind heathens, doomed to hell for not recognising the obvious. Christians are gullible fools that can't face reality without a comfort blanket etc. Far worse has been said before too. People can't help thinking that because it is integral to the original belief. Besides which saying 'jesus is better than us but was always modest and so I should act the same and not mention my superiority' isn't the best way to say its not true <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
Not that I'm saying you are and I believe you didn't mean any of that negatively just as I <i>honestly</i> don't mean my first paragraph to be so... offensive. That's probably how it would be read though which isn't my intent at all.
Anyway, yes you are right when you say that there are plenty of true christians that share the christian lifestyle as well as the belief just as there are lots of athiests who live in 'sin' and have no morals. Unfortunately it reflects far worse on the christians. After all we athiests, by declaring our beliefs (or lack of) are simply stating that there isn't a god. To be a christian however includes a strict moral code and a list of what you should and shouldn't do. I find it amazing that people can seperate the christian faith from the christian life style, surely they should be the same thing?
As was said earlier, what does it mean when godless athiests act more christian than a christian does? When we have a moral code without need punishments and rewards and large stone tablets thrown at us to follow it.
Most of us dream. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> As the subconscious is to the mind, the soul is to the body.
And Skulkbait, you should know better than to generalize Christians by this point. Do <i>I</i> think myself better than everyone else? No. I don't even know anyone else's professed religion that I don't know to be in my Youth Group. I really don't care what religion my friends practice. I say we're all going to heaven if we actively try to be good people. Yes, even atheists. Being cynical and logical is never deemed a sin in the Bible, and in most cases I can hardly blame them for being atheists. Either they were brought up to never think about a God, or they were forced to think about God so much that they grew tired of Him. In neither situation did they have much choice in the matter. Same thing with people from nations where there really is one official religion; they don't have much of a choice when it comes to faith. Why would God judge them 'unclean' when they just did the best that they could given the circumstances?
Oh, and back to breakthrough for a sec:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Christianity is a scary thing. It's blind faith, backed up by media. I think there's more Catholics in the world then non-religious people, and you know what? That is a serious problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) All religion is based on blind faith. Christianity hardly set the record on that.
2) Catholicism is NOT the largest religion in the world.
And Skulkbait, you should know better than to generalize Christians by this point. Do <i>I</i> think myself better than everyone else? No. I don't even know anyone else's professed religion that I don't know to be in my Youth Group. I really don't care what religion my friends practice. I say we're all going to heaven if we actively try to be good people. Yes, even atheists. Being cynical and logical is never deemed a sin in the Bible, and in most cases I can hardly blame them for being atheists. Either they were brought up to never think about a God, or they were forced to think about God so much that they grew tired of Him. In neither situation did they have much choice in the matter. Same thing with people from nations where there really is one official religion; they don't have much of a choice when it comes to faith. Why would God judge them 'unclean' when they just did the best that they could given the circumstances? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't believe in a soul, the idea is pretty daft imo.
You don't think you're belief is the right one? You don't think that if everyone thought the same way you did the world would be a better place? Ok so there is no guarentee you are right but if you didn't think your ideas were worth listening too you wouldn't be posting in a discussion forum. You probably wouldn't be posting in any forum actually.
From an objective perspective am I better than others? No of course not, each one of us is as meaningless as the other. Subjectively? Hell yeah, my way of thinking is the only rational way and the only time I'm wrong is when I'm missing some information.
I'm an Athiest, I was brought up by my very devout Mom who strongly believed in a God, her belief was very important to her. She didn't force me to go to church, she didn't force her opinions on me, we didn't sit down and discuss it unless I wanted to. If I could believe then I would, I just don't have a single drop of faith inside me, I am completely incapable. I'm not bored of the idea as you can tell by the amount of times I've posted in these topics and the amount of research I've done on religion, quite the opposite in fact. I plan to bring my children up exactly the same way so that they are encouraged to think about what they believe in without forcing them down one particular path. I'd ask you not to generalise athiests but these things happen <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
God is our father. We usually refer to Him as "father," though in some sense of translation, and in deeper relations with the Almighty, we use words such as "pappa" or "daddy" to indicate a more intricate relationship. We look to Him for protection and nourishment, and so on.
Thought #1:
Now, relate this to yourself. If you ever had, will have, or currently have children, can you honestly stand before the world and say that you would sacrifice that child, and sentence that child to eternal damnation of any sort, for any reason? This is eternity now, not a slap on the wrist, not a "timeout." You will be consious and endure your worst fears forEVER. Hell, I can't say I'd wish that on my worst enemy. And if you can say that you'd send your child into that... well, you're either bursting with angst or you are quite different on a psycological scale than I am.
Thought #2:
Behavior and belief are quite subjective, and are confined to what knowledge is available, like a flower growing toward the only light source it has, we can only believe what we know or have manufactured. We can only act in the ways we know how to act. If all we know is murder, then all we can do is murder. How could you expect anyone to do differently? Would someone who died with only murder in his thoughts consider our version of Heaven Hell? Even Heaven can be relative, so maybe the afterlife is nothing more than what we've known all our lives.
And Skulkbait, you should know better than to generalize Christians by this point. Do <i>I</i> think myself better than everyone else? No. I don't even know anyone else's professed religion that I don't know to be in my Youth Group. I really don't care what religion my friends practice. I say we're all going to heaven if we actively try to be good people. Yes, even atheists. Being cynical and logical is never deemed a sin in the Bible, and in most cases I can hardly blame them for being atheists. Either they were brought up to never think about a God, or they were forced to think about God so much that they grew tired of Him. In neither situation did they have much choice in the matter. Same thing with people from nations where there really is one official religion; they don't have much of a choice when it comes to faith. Why would God judge them 'unclean' when they just did the best that they could given the circumstances? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't believe in a soul, the idea is pretty daft imo.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The soul is no more an abstract concept than the subconsciuos, though every time you dream you know you have one. Well, every time we pray, we know we have a soul. There really isn't much you can say to dissuade us of that particular fact.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You don't think you're belief is the right one? You don't think that if everyone thought the same way you did the world would be a better place? Ok so there is no guarentee you are right but if you didn't think your ideas were worth listening too you wouldn't be posting in a discussion forum. You probably wouldn't be posting in any forum actually.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course the world wouldn't be a better place if everyone believed the same thing. That'd be boring as Hell. And mostly I post in this forum because I was tired of all Christians being construed as anti-science, anti-logic, and basically anti-everyone-else. I believe my ideas are worth listening to, but at the same time I only say them; I don't pressure anyone else to share my faith, or even my particular views on my faith. I just know that I am always on the lookout for interesting new views on life, so I assume that there are others out there searching for new perspectives as well. It would be selfish of me not to throw my own take on faith into the shared pool of ideas, in the hopes that someone reads and agrees with it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From an objective perspective am I better than others? No of course not, each one of us is as meaningless as the other. Subjectively? Hell yeah, my way of thinking is the only rational way and the only time I'm wrong is when I'm missing some information.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're an existentialist then? I'm sorry, we're just studying Camus in English and that statement reminded me of his work.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm an Athiest, I was brought up by my very devout Mom who strongly believed in a God, her belief was very important to her. She didn't force me to go to church, she didn't force her opinions on me, we didn't sit down and discuss it unless I wanted to. If I could believe then I would, I just don't have a single drop of faith inside me, I am completely incapable. I'm not bored of the idea as you can tell by the amount of times I've posted in these topics and the amount of research I've done on religion, quite the opposite in fact. I plan to bring my children up exactly the same way so that they are encouraged to think about what they believe in without forcing them down one particular path. I'd ask you not to generalise athiests but these things happen <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, I seem to have forgotten the (quite numerous) portion of this forum that has tried to find God, but simply can't for some reason. I understandably can't really relate, but I do apologize for overlooking that particular reason for being an atheist.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) Catholicism is NOT the largest religion in the world.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Catholicism isn't a religion. Christianity is the largest religion in the world.
<a href='http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html' target='_blank'>http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The soul is no more an abstract concept than the subconsciuos, though every time you dream you know you have one. Well, every time we pray, we know we have a soul. There really isn't much you can say to dissuade us of that particular fact. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The subconscious is based upon chemical reactions in the brain. A soul is based upon religious belief. A soul is more abstract than the subconscious is.
I'm feeling nitpicky tonight.
And as for the subconsciuos being based on chemical reactions, can you tell me exactly what reaction will lead to a dream about a dancing penguin wearing a red trenchcoat and tights? No? There is some aspect of the subconscious that will never be understood by science; it's simply too complex a concept, and it relies too much on randomness to really be concretely defined by science. So while it <u>does</u> lie closer to the realm of logic than the soul, it's not <u>that</u> far removed. Some people are not aware of possessing a subconscious (namely, they don't dream), just as some people are not aware of possessing a soul.
Can you give me a reason why we won't eventually be able to determine exactly what's going on in the brain? I don't see anything about it that is too complex and random. 100 years ago, they would have told you that it is impossible to wirelessly take a 3D image of the brain, but yet, we have MRI machines today. All it would take would be advances in technology.
Yeah, praying shows with solid evidence that souls exist!!! ::rolleyes::
The only reason why a soul was dreamed up is because your brain is not self-aware.
There's no such thing as a soul
As to having faith in Christianity: Why choose Christianity? As opposed to Islam? Buddhism? Because you were brought up a Christian and you live in a predominantly Christian country. If you were born in the middle east do you honestly think you'd still be Christian? No, you'd be Muslim.
Your militant atheism is a bit off topic here. Start a thread on sexual politics or something man. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- James 1:26,27 (The Message Remix)
I think you bring up a good point, most American christians today don't talk about this passage or what we are to do about entertainment. I think most christians agree that God would like us to enjoy our short lives on this earth but our main goal is to help others enjoy their short lives... even if that makes our lives not so enjoyable... hmm...
Pretty challenging thought for me as a christian.
~ DarkATi
-
Of course the world wouldn't be a better place if everyone believed the same thing. That'd be boring as Hell. And mostly I post in this forum because I was tired of all Christians being construed as anti-science, anti-logic, and basically anti-everyone-else. I believe my ideas are worth listening to, but at the same time I only say them; I don't pressure anyone else to share my faith, or even my particular views on my faith. I just know that I am always on the lookout for interesting new views on life, so I assume that there are others out there searching for new perspectives as well. It would be selfish of me not to throw my own take on faith into the shared pool of ideas, in the hopes that someone reads and agrees with it.
-
So you're an existentialist then? I'm sorry, we're just studying Camus in English and that statement reminded me of his work.
-
Fair enough, I seem to have forgotten the (quite numerous) portion of this forum that has tried to find God, but simply can't for some reason. I understandably can't really relate, but I do apologize for overlooking that particular reason for being an atheist. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't going to try and dissuade you, the soul is part of the whole faith thing and there is no proof for or against it. Things like prayer for me prove that there is no god and no soul, just as much as prayer solidifies your own belief that they do exist.
The reason christians are seen as anti-science, anti-logic and anti-everyone-else is because:
Faith in god is completely irrational and illogical.
Science repeatedly comes up with alternate explanations for things traditionally ascribed to god and those explanations make far more sense i.e. Evolution.
Christianity has always been a pretty militant faith that forces its ideals upon others, just look at the world today, look at all the history we've had.
That isn't to say all christians are the same but certain beliefs go hand in hand with certain types of behaviour. I'm not accusing you or anyone else of trying to convert me but there is a reason why you believe the things you do. You wouldn't believe in god if you knew/felt that the idea was wrong would you. Which means of course that when you 'share' your ideas with everyone else you are telling them what is right, how the world truly is. Of course, you realise that everyone else feels the same way about their own ideas so you don't actively go into it thinking you'll convert anyone or even plan to, you just want to enjoy the discussion. You still can't help feeling that your perspective is the right one though, its natural.
Sorry but if everyone thought the same way the world wouldn't be boring at all, we all actively try and find others that think the same way. People go to church, to political rallies, to internet forums etc to find others who feel the same way. Besides, even if it was boring, would it still not be better? With no fighting, no stupidity, no misunderstanding? You would automatically treat others as you want to be treated and we'd all finally be happy.
I'm an existentialist?... Well I do share a lot of the same views and when I first read Sartre I was amazed that so many of the things I thought about had been written about yes. I'm not sure if I fit exactly inside any one catergory though. I've heard good things about Camus but never read anything by him unfortunately.
No need to apologise, its always easy to forget that not every person on the other side has been brainwashed. We just tend to think it because then we can say 'any sane person, if given the chance, would believe what we do'.
[Edit] Why is it that no matter how hard I check it first there is always a typo, I'm sure there are others but I'll never spot them[/Edit]
Yeah, praying shows with solid evidence that souls exist!!! ::rolleyes::
The only reason why a soul was dreamed up is because your brain is not self-aware.
There's no such thing as a soul <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How can you profess to be an authority on something that requires belief where you have none. You can't say that I don't have a soul, for the simple reason that I CAN say that I have a soul, and there's not a damn thing you can do to prove me wrong. Dreams exist because I create them with my mind. The proof is in the action. Souls exist because I feel mine every time I pray. The proof is in the action.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As to having faith in Christianity: Why choose Christianity? As opposed to Islam? Buddhism? Because you were brought up a Christian and you live in a predominantly Christian country. If you were born in the middle east do you honestly think you'd still be Christian? No, you'd be Muslim.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Damn straight, which is why IF YOU WERE PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING YOU WOULD SEE THAT I DON'T CARE WHAT RELIGION YOU PRACTICE, BECAUSE IT OFTEN ISN'T A CHOICE.
Christ, you think all Christians are elitist douchebags with no respect for anyone else's ideas or beliefs, yet you just blatantly ignore me when I said that no religion is better in God's eyes than any other. I'm starting to believe that your hatred towards religion is a direct result of you <i>wanting</i> religion to be seen as evil, because it's just so much easier to argue against something you can demonize.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can you give me a reason why we won't eventually be able to determine exactly what's going on in the brain? I don't see anything about it that is too complex and random. 100 years ago, they would have told you that it is impossible to wirelessly take a 3D image of the brain, but yet, we have MRI machines today. All it would take would be advances in technology.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I seem to recall a statement concerning our brain's ability to understand itself. Basically, it was along the lines of, "The more advanced our brains become, the harder it will be to understand our own brain. Our brain will never be smart enough to understand itself."
But really, the answer is because the activities of the brain are at least as dependant on random chance as on known chemical reactions, and so while we may be able to create partially accurate models of what <i>most likely</i> would happen in a brain, we'll never be able to fully grasp how it works. Like the definite uncertainty inherent in locating and tracking electrons; some things just can't be done no matter how advanced our technology becomes.
Souls exist because you can feel them when you pray? The Brain's chemistry changes in a specific way during deep prayer. They've hooked up Buddhist monks and Catholic nuns to MRI machines and they've studied what the brain does when someone is praying. It's a scientific phenomenon. That's probably what you're feeling. There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that what you're feeling is a soul.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I seem to recall a statement concerning our brain's ability to understand itself. Basically, it was along the lines of, "The more advanced our brains become, the harder it will be to understand our own brain. Our brain will never be smart enough to understand itself."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's twisted logic. We can build computers and machines that are so complex that we will never be able to understand them fully. So how can we possibly create computers, when we aren't smart enough to understand them fully? It's simple, we can use technology that understands systems so complex that our brain can't understand them by itself.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But really, the answer is because the activities of the brain are at least as dependant on random chance as on known chemical reactions, and so while we may be able to create partially accurate models of what most likely would happen in a brain, we'll never be able to fully grasp how it works. Like the definite uncertainty inherent in locating and tracking electrons; some things just can't be done no matter how advanced our technology becomes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess you're right. We'll never be able to completely, 100% understand every single part of the brain, all the way down to subatomic particles. But we will eventually be able to understand the vast majority of the brain. If you want to call the remaining aspects of a brain a soul, then go ahead, but you're leaping to a conclusion that isn't supported by the facts.
I think you just answered your own question.
Also, what electronics system are you looking at that is so complex you can't understand it? You flip the switch, the electricity runs through it, simple. People write programs which then run on your machine, simple. There's nothing random about what happens, I could execute the same command over and over and over on the same machine and, provided there are no bugs or viruses, the same exact thing will happen each time. You can't say that will happen with a brain. The same exact stimuli will not always produce the same effects in people, because there's a degree of randomness built in.
And no, the parts of the brain we don't understand do not comprise the soul. The soul is not part of the body; you could say it is inside the body while living, but being as it is as much a part of this physical plane as angels and Heaven, you'd be hard-pressed to detect it.
What?
Okay, I'm a woman. You can't prove me wrong.
If souls don't exist, the only way anyone could ever <i>not</i> prove you wrong is if you admit that souls are just a mental construct, which means that what you're feeling is something constructed by your mind and therefore, your entire argument is undermined.
What?
Okay, I'm a woman. You can't prove me wrong.
If souls don't exist, the only way anyone could ever <i>not</i> prove you wrong is if you admit that souls are just a mental construct, which means that what you're feeling is something constructed by your mind and therefore, your entire argument is undermined. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering I can't see you, I'd have a tough time proving you a man, or even saying with confidence that you are one. I believe it was Nem0 who declared, "This is the Internet. Gender is optional."
But, if you were standing before me, I could physically disprove that statement. "Man" and "woman" are defined and understood by everyone, therefore I can prove that you do not fit the definition of a woman. However, as you do not believe in faith, you have no definition of it, and therefore have no way of disproving it.
And what if the sould is constructed of the mind? It's not any more logical that a piece of your subconscious survive after death, rather than one's spiritual body, so even if I did say that the soul was a construct of the mind you'd have to disagree with me.
Furthermore, I'm not really arguing here. I'm stating my belief. There is no argument to undermine. I'm also stating that you can't really change my belief. I'm being rather obnoxious really, but then again so are you for trying to change my personal beliefs simply because they don't make sense to you.
*roll eyes* <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> Yes and we should <i>all</i> know by now that you are self-proclaimed to be good at manipulating people.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Considering I can't see you, I'd have a tough time proving you a man, or even saying with confidence that you are one. I believe it was Nem0 who declared, "This is the Internet. Gender is optional."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that was because of me and somebody else and I was like confused about this person being a guy or a girl. I forget where to topic was. Do you remember?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Souls exist because you can feel them when you pray? The Brain's chemistry changes in a specific way during deep prayer. They've hooked up Buddhist monks and Catholic nuns to MRI machines and they've studied what the brain does when someone is praying. It's a scientific phenomenon. That's probably what you're feeling. There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that what you're feeling is a soul.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I agree with you, I do believe there are souls. For me, <span style='color:green'><b>anything has a soul if it is loved and can love in return</b></span>. It doesn't even have to be a biological creature to have a soul. No I can't prove it, but then again faith is there to explain the unknown.
To everyone:
Why oh why do so many people place science and religion as opposites?! I think they complement each other well and both have the same goal. The more we learn with science the more amazing the world seems and the more we are able to grow spiritually. As science explores, religion grows. As a matter of fact, the more we learn through science the more questions and unkowns there are for faith to help us out.
What?
Okay, I'm a woman. You can't prove me wrong.
If souls don't exist, the only way anyone could ever <i>not</i> prove you wrong is if you admit that souls are just a mental construct, which means that what you're feeling is something constructed by your mind and therefore, your entire argument is undermined. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering I can't see you, I'd have a tough time proving you a man, or even saying with confidence that you are one. I believe it was Nem0 who declared, "This is the Internet. Gender is optional."
But, if you were standing before me, I could physically disprove that statement. "Man" and "woman" are defined and understood by everyone, therefore I can prove that you do not fit the definition of a woman. However, as you do not believe in faith, you have no definition of it, and therefore have no way of disproving it.
And what if the sould is constructed of the mind? It's not any more logical that a piece of your subconscious survive after death, rather than one's spiritual body, so even if I did say that the soul was a construct of the mind you'd have to disagree with me.
Furthermore, I'm not really arguing here. I'm stating my belief. There is no argument to undermine. I'm also stating that you can't really change my belief. I'm being rather obnoxious really, but then again so are you for trying to change my personal beliefs simply because they don't make sense to you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, I don't think I understood what you meant. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I wasn't trying to change your beliefs, though, just questioning them. Trying to get you to explain to me, so that I might be able to understand them and maybe make sense out of them.
And that was because of me and somebody else and I was like confused about this person being a guy or a girl. I forget where to topic was. Do you remember? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, you couldn't figure out if Quanaut was a boy or a girl <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And I'm pretty sure I just spelled his name wrong...
And CForrester, I think I meant that "you're trying to change my personal beliefs" statement to be more directed at Nadagast than you.
Ah yes now I remember! Come to think of it, because of Nem0's interjection I never did find out the answer... and actually I think it was my topic. Yeah that's right I created a topic where people could volunteer some info like age and gender.
/me goes to find...
To everyone:
Why oh why do so many people place science and religion as opposites?! I think they complement each other well and both have the same goal. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simple, because while faith explains the unknown we eventually find the real reason out and then science takes that explanation away.
Faith was a lot more powerful when gods pushed the sun across the sky. At some point there will come a time when we have a scientific explanation for so much that you literally have to specialise in one subject in order to discover the unknown. That is when faith will literally become "I believe there is a god because err... because I do" and you won't be able to point at the unknowables and say its proof of god.
When we finally work out how to create universes, when we map our brain so we know that the rapture is a self induced state and we can feel it at anytime we want... science and religion are against each other in this regard.
Religion is a) a comfort blanket and b) an explanation of the unknowable. When b) is removed religion will lose a lot of what makes it powerful. Especially as part of the comfort comes from being able to explain the unknowable.
There are plenty of people who do volutary work. Alternatively, you could live and work as a volunteer for an organisation that will feed and house you. If you've decided to have a family and plug into Western civilisation, you're unlikely to want to give it up now.