<!--QuoteBegin-Gerald R Ford+Apr 10 2005, 05:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gerald R Ford @ Apr 10 2005, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven+Apr 10 2005, 03:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven @ Apr 10 2005, 03:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyone else agree with me (yes) when I say that HMGs = uber rape squads of death? They should really tone these babies down at least a little bit. A level 3 HMG plus a catpack will kill a fade before he can even blink close enough to swipe. A level 2 (no catpack) hmg will kill a fade so fast he won't even have a chance to blink away. Lerks? Pfft, a quick spray and your flying unit turns into a rock. I think it's time the dev team nerfs HMGs, at least slightly, maybe even reducing the damage done by 2-3 points could help. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> so we can make you and mustang a flying terror that can't die? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They already ARE flying terrors that cant die :-\
<!--QuoteBegin-JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven+Apr 12 2005, 02:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven @ Apr 12 2005, 02:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not really asking for a full-on nerf. I just wish something could be done to either HMGs or jetpacks, because a JP with a level 3 HMG can easily solo any lifeform. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Make a jetpacker with an HMG move slower and/or burn fuel faster?
<!--QuoteBegin-JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven+Apr 12 2005, 12:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven @ Apr 12 2005, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TheAdj+Apr 12 2005, 05:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheAdj @ Apr 12 2005, 05:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've always thought HMGs were the hammer of the marine team, and when bludgeoning didn't work, using jets or HA as an anvil could help turn the tide of just about any game. HMGs aren't overpowered for one reason only: The AA is ridiculously easy to kill. That alone balances them out since the alien team can quickly stop the flow of new weapons, and then it's simply the law of averages and statistics, eventually HMGs will start dissapearing. A solo alien shouldn't really be able to stand up to a HMG, especially in 3.0F. Keep in mind aliens aren't designed to stand toe-to-toe with marines, and that's exactly what you're asking for here if HMGs get nerfed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not really asking for a full-on nerf. I just wish something could be done to either HMGs or jetpacks, because a JP with a level 3 HMG can easily solo any lifeform. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again you continue to make false statements. A commander can not drop a JP/HMG and tell the marine: "Go kill the fade."
Realisticaly a JP/HMG can 'occupy' a solo fade indefinitly, not kill it. If the fade is 2 hives either of which are SC the JP will die. If the fade is 3 hives the fade will kill the JP regardless. Fades die when they are forced to attack. A JP/HMG holds little power in forcing a fade's actions. While the HMG can support a JP/shotgun(which holds advancing power) the solo JP/HMG serves little purpose in its self. The marine team must pressure, advance, and force the fade into a situation where he has no alternative but to battle the HMG. A HMG alone has trouble accomplishing this. The marines must push with some other form of weapons. The fact that a few HMGs can kill lifeforms but hold little threat against structures is the cause of this.
In fact I dont know why you continue to make these referances to 1v1 battles at all. 1v1 battles can not be used as a standard to judge balance. Aliens move over twice as fast as marines and are expected to outnumber the marines in every situation. Saying a single marine should be equal to a single alien is a useless point.
<!--QuoteBegin-homicide+Apr 12 2005, 06:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (homicide @ Apr 12 2005, 06:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jmm believes the HMG is overpowered against lifeforms and should be reduced. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ya, I know im just not seeing it. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-homicide+Apr 12 2005, 05:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (homicide @ Apr 12 2005, 05:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven+Apr 12 2005, 12:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven @ Apr 12 2005, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TheAdj+Apr 12 2005, 05:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheAdj @ Apr 12 2005, 05:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've always thought HMGs were the hammer of the marine team, and when bludgeoning didn't work, using jets or HA as an anvil could help turn the tide of just about any game. HMGs aren't overpowered for one reason only: The AA is ridiculously easy to kill. That alone balances them out since the alien team can quickly stop the flow of new weapons, and then it's simply the law of averages and statistics, eventually HMGs will start dissapearing. A solo alien shouldn't really be able to stand up to a HMG, especially in 3.0F. Keep in mind aliens aren't designed to stand toe-to-toe with marines, and that's exactly what you're asking for here if HMGs get nerfed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not really asking for a full-on nerf. I just wish something could be done to either HMGs or jetpacks, because a JP with a level 3 HMG can easily solo any lifeform. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again you continue to make false statements. A commander can not drop a JP/HMG and tell the marine: "Go kill the fade."
Realisticaly a JP/HMG can 'occupy' a solo fade indefinitly, not kill it. If the fade is 2 hives either of which are SC the JP will die. If the fade is 3 hives the fade will kill the JP regardless. Fades die when they are forced to attack. A JP/HMG holds little power in forcing a fade's actions. While the HMG can support a JP/shotgun(which holds advancing power) the solo JP/HMG serves little purpose in its self. The marine team must pressure, advance, and force the fade into a situation where he has no alternative but to battle the HMG. A HMG alone has trouble accomplishing this. The marines must push with some other form of weapons. The fact that a few HMGs can kill lifeforms but hold little threat against structures is the cause of this.
In fact I dont know why you continue to make these referances to 1v1 battles at all. 1v1 battles can not be used as a standard to judge balance. Aliens move over twice as fast as marines and are expected to outnumber the marines in every situation. Saying a single marine should be equal to a single alien is a useless point. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh yes, he certainly can. And the only way a fade can <b>effectively</b> be safe against jetpacks is to get celerity. An onos is toast unless he has charge, a lerk will get chewed up instantaneously, and skulks/gorges are self-explanatory. It pretty much takes 2 hives to have a decent chance against a marine team fully equipped with HMGs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A JP/HMG holds little power in forcing a fade's actions.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uhh... what? You can make the fade do whatever you want it to do if you have a jp/hmg. You see shotguns as "advancing" weapons, but you rarely need to kill structures to advance. All it takes is a phase gate. I'm not saying that a single marine should be equal to a single alien (actually it's pretty ridiculous that you're implying this), I'm saying that I feel it to be pretty unbalanced when a marine can take me down to the no armor zone as fade sometimes before I can even get a second swipe or escape blink off. Team support changes this very little, as unless the marine gets absolutely overrun by a ****-ton of aliens, a few medpacks and some marine movement will get that fade very, very low. It's been like this so long that people are seeing it as normal, and whether or not it should be is up for debate. I'm just saying that I think it would be a little more "fair" if they weren't so rapesauce, and who knows, if [when] commanders start using catpacks more, they'll really vaporize everything.
<!--QuoteBegin-niaccurshi+Apr 12 2005, 07:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Apr 12 2005, 07:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the point is that a team fully equipped with HMG's can walk over just about anything the aliens throw at them? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Even with an equal amount of aliens and umbra support?
Armoury = 15 res Advanced Armoury = 30 res & 3 minutes research time HMG = 15 res * 6 players = 90 res 135 res already spent not counting the res you need to spend to get that 135 res on res towers, arms lab, upgrades on the arms lab etc.
<!--QuoteBegin-Malibu Stacey+Apr 12 2005, 08:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Malibu Stacey @ Apr 12 2005, 08:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Armoury = 15 res Advanced Armoury = 30 res & 3 minutes research time HMG = 15 res * 6 players = 90 res 135 res already spent not counting the res you need to spend to get that 135 res on res towers, arms lab, upgrades on the arms lab etc.
I'm with grahf on this one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> armory = 10res m8.
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 12 2005, 07:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 12 2005, 07:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes, a team fully-equipped with HMGs SHOULD be able to walk all over one hive aliens...your point? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I just find it kind of ridiculous that a catpack level 3 HMG can deal out 500 damage a second (dead regen fade in 1.2 seconds, dead cara fade in 1.6 seconds). With a non-catpack level 2 HMG (mildly more realistic), you're looking at about 375 damage a second, which equates to about 1.6 seconds for a regen fade and about 2.2 seconds for a cara fade. Sometimes it takes that much time just to get close to your target (think cargo on tanith, one HMG can toast a fade disgustingly easily in there).
That is saying your able to get every bullet to hit, which means the fade stands still and is within 4 feet of you. Not even an aimbot can hit 80% of the bullets on a fade since they are far away most of the time and its very inaccurate.
You also forgot to factor hit reg in and we all know that is very, very bad with a fade.
<!--QuoteBegin-JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven+Apr 10 2005, 10:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven @ Apr 10 2005, 10:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Grahf+Apr 10 2005, 07:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grahf @ Apr 10 2005, 07:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The game is alien bias and you want to take away the one strong and reliable weapon the marines have.
EDIT- AND YES I KNOW YOUR NOT SERIOUS <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, I am serious. Level 3 HMGs are a flipping joke, they need to be nerfed at least a <b>little bit</b>. You know that if you simply stand on an elevated surface/ramp and employ a little bit of marine movement (sometimes you don't even need this), a single marine can hold off or even kill an onos? Come on, tell me that's balanced and fair. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> did it with a shotty. mighta been a bit hurt tho. still took like 5-6 shots
<!--QuoteBegin-Grahf+Apr 12 2005, 09:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grahf @ Apr 12 2005, 09:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That is saying your able to get every bullet to hit, which means the fade stands still and is within 4 feet of you. Not even an aimbot can hit 80% of the bullets on a fade since they are far away most of the time and its very inaccurate.
You also forgot to factor hit reg in and we all know that is very, very bad with a fade. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's very easy to get 90% percent of your shots to hit with the HMG, assuming that you have good aim. Also, the spread isn't all that bad against a large lifeform like a fade. As for hit reg, the only thing that it will do is cause the fade to die a few tenths of a second after the death shot has been taken.
You continue to say a JP/HMG owns. OK, fine, we agree. That is not grounds for changing them. JP/HMG seldom lets the marine team come back from a losing game (which imo would be a sign of imbalance). A JP/Shotgun has almost the strategic value of a JP/HMG for less resources. A JP/shotgun group can rush a hive and kill it. While a JP/HMG will fly around and basicaly acomplish nothing that this stage in the game.
Getting a phase gate is NOT all it takes. Maybe early game. At the stage in the game where JP/HMGs are flying around the alien team better have two hives. A PG push is more than likly going to fail. Look at it this way. You had 100 res and JP tech. The other team has two hives and both chambers. Would you rather send 4 JP/Shotguns to rush a hive OR 2 JP/HMGs to get a phase up, then attempt to push the hive from the phase. The JP/Shotgun rush takes less res, is faster, and has a higher chance of success.
Now you have an option of sending the HMG to 'clear the path', but once you get into the hive the HMG is worthless against the hive(the real goal). So lets say you took those 4 JPs that rushed the hive, gave 2 of them HMGs. Now it should be a LOT easy for your marine team to sustain in battle, although now it takes twice as long for the to kill the hive.
Or you could attempt to simply dominate the map, killing res and lifeforms. HMGs would clear the map better but it is still going to suck at killing the RTs. Yes a fade without cel is at huge risk against a JP, but MC comes are up by the 2nd hive almost every game. In the rare case that an alien team didnt have MC by their second hive they MUST have SC, which is a huge threat in its self to the JP/HMGs.
HMG/JPs simply dont have the tactic power to turn a game. They may own lifeforms, but at the stage of the game where JP/HMG come into play it typicaly does not matter. The JP/shotgun HA/shotgun or just phase/shotgun can be equaly dominating in an equal range of late games. JP/HMG or HA/HMG gives an 'already winning' marine team an option to take down a two hive alien team. Without the 'godly HMG' the marine team would be even weaker than it is now at the second hive.
<!--QuoteBegin-homicide+Apr 13 2005, 04:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (homicide @ Apr 13 2005, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The spread of an HMG is 4x that of an lmg.
You continue to say a JP/HMG owns. OK, fine, we agree. That is not grounds for changing them. JP/HMG seldom lets the marine team come back from a losing game (which imo would be a sign of imbalance). A JP/Shotgun has almost the strategic value of a JP/HMG for less resources. A JP/shotgun group can rush a hive and kill it. While a JP/HMG will fly around and basicaly acomplish nothing that this stage in the game.
Getting a phase gate is NOT all it takes. Maybe early game. At the stage in the game where JP/HMGs are flying around the alien team better have two hives. A PG push is more than likly going to fail. Look at it this way. You had 100 res and JP tech. The other team has two hives and both chambers. Would you rather send 4 JP/Shotguns to rush a hive OR 2 JP/HMGs to get a phase up, then attempt to push the hive from the phase. The JP/Shotgun rush takes less res, is faster, and has a higher chance of success.
Now you have an option of sending the HMG to 'clear the path', but once you get into the hive the HMG is worthless against the hive(the real goal). So lets say you took those 4 JPs that rushed the hive, gave 2 of them HMGs. Now it should be a LOT easy for your marine team to sustain in battle, although now it takes twice as long for the to kill the hive.
Or you could attempt to simply dominate the map, killing res and lifeforms. HMGs would clear the map better but it is still going to suck at killing the RTs. Yes a fade without cel is at huge risk against a JP, but MC comes are up by the 2nd hive almost every game. In the rare case that an alien team didnt have MC by their second hive they MUST have SC, which is a huge threat in its self to the JP/HMGs.
HMG/JPs simply dont have the tactic power to turn a game. They may own lifeforms, but at the stage of the game where JP/HMG come into play it typicaly does not matter. The JP/shotgun HA/shotgun or just phase/shotgun can be equaly dominating in an equal range of late games. JP/HMG or HA/HMG gives an 'already winning' marine team an option to take down a two hive alien team. Without the 'godly HMG' the marine team would be even weaker than it is now at the second hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not talking about hives here, I'm talking about lifeforms. And with no lifeforms, unless you have 3 hives, leap skulks won't be able to kill the JPs in time. But that's beside the point. Shooting RTs and chambers with an HMG will do more damage than you think. You don't <b>need</b> those shotguns.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Apr 11 2005, 08:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Apr 11 2005, 08:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Emanon+Apr 11 2005, 05:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Emanon @ Apr 11 2005, 05:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I havent seen the mention of umbra in this thread yet, so ill add it.
By the time marines have HMGs aliens should have or almost have their 2nd hive.
Umbra blocks 1/2 of the bullets? Therefore making the gun 1/2 as effective. Thats a pretty big nerf.
Call for backup if you see a group of HMGs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> but by the time the aliens have 2 hives, they have won...
on topic more... I sorta agree that HMGs damage is a little too much but I think that if HMG damage is toned down marines need to be improved a little bit, especially in the early game.
I mean honestly being a fade around even a single JP HMG with good aim is just ridiculously dangerous. I dunno. Maybe reduce HMG damage but reduce shotgun cost when marines have an advanced armory or something, because as it is, a single HMG more dangerous than 3 shotguns in many rooms (cargo, rr on tanith for example). and it's a million times harder to pick lone marines out of a pack if they have a few HMGs, cuz they are just so much more effective at range than shotguns <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please remember what this topic is about, LvL 3 HMG. If the marines have lvl 3 weapons, an advanced armory with Jps before you have your 2nd hive you should loose.
of course you are going to die if you run into a group of HMG marines, you have a team for a reason. And if the heavies have hmgs, yes you will die. you will also lose the game because marines are better in the endgame of classic NS. Combat is the opposite.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 14 2005, 08:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 14 2005, 08:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually no...aliens have a much better midgame AND endgame in classic. That is why they win more often than marines do in classic right now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The "strength" of the Kharaa game does have one major weakness. They require an expansion for each tech level.
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 14 2005, 02:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 14 2005, 02:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually no...aliens have a much better midgame AND endgame in classic. That is why they win more often than marines do in classic right now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The alien endgame is not stronger then the marine endgame. Set up two teams each with five resnodes, aliens with three hives and 100 res for every lifeform all upgrade chambers and 5 ocs in each hive location, marines with every stucture and upgrade recearched and 300 res. Marines will win nearly every time. for the res they cost, HMG/HAs are far more effective then the equivalent alien lifeform (fades) and even at three hives, a good HMG team complimented maby buy 1-2 JPs as backup will be able to massacar any alein resistance and fairly quiclky take control of the map, if not overun the hive in seconds.
The onos is underpowered in its role against HMG wielding players. It needs a high skill required way of increasing the effectiveness against HMG teams that doesn't force it back out as soon as it enters the room the HMG are camping. Or at very least it does at hive 3...
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
By definition, both teams can not reach endgame at the same time. Ok, there IS a way, but one team would have to be asleep, and the situation would never happen in a REAL game...ever.
Look, in order ot advance in tech, aliens need hives right? So, if aliens have 3 hives, that means marines should have almost nothing. I've never, EVER seen a game with the situation you described swiftspear. It will never happen ever. When aliens reach end-game, in my book that means marines don't have much, if res towers and res, and aliens own 3 hives and have higher lifeforms.
3-hive aliens > fully-teched marines many times over if marines have little res. Even with lots of res, fully teched marines will have the odds stacked against them when the aliens have 3 hives. I guarantee you that no competent clan will lose if they have 3 hives, higher lieforms, and some res.
When marines reach endgame, that means they are well-teched, and the aliens only have one hive. See, this is the reverse situaiton, and the ONLY reason why marines have an easier time finihing off the aliens is because of Seige Cannons.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Apr 14 2005, 03:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 14 2005, 03:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 14 2005, 02:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 14 2005, 02:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually no...aliens have a much better midgame AND endgame in classic. That is why they win more often than marines do in classic right now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The alien endgame is not stronger then the marine endgame. Set up two teams each with five resnodes, aliens with three hives and 100 res for every lifeform all upgrade chambers and 5 ocs in each hive location, marines with every stucture and upgrade recearched and 300 res. Marines will win nearly every time. for the res they cost, HMG/HAs are far more effective then the equivalent alien lifeform (fades) and even at three hives, a good HMG team complimented maby buy 1-2 JPs as backup will be able to massacar any alein resistance and fairly quiclky take control of the map, if not overun the hive in seconds.
The onos is underpowered in its role against HMG wielding players. It needs a high skill required way of increasing the effectiveness against HMG teams that doesn't force it back out as soon as it enters the room the HMG are camping. Or at very least it does at hive 3... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Set that situation up and it'd have to be a really bad alien team to lose with web, umbra and three upgrade onos and fades.
It's more than a struggle to win vs two hive aliens when you have HA/JP and 5 nodes.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Apr 14 2005, 03:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 14 2005, 03:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Church+Apr 14 2005, 02:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Apr 14 2005, 02:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually no...aliens have a much better midgame AND endgame in classic. That is why they win more often than marines do in classic right now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The alien endgame is not stronger then the marine endgame. Set up two teams each with five resnodes, aliens with three hives and 100 res for every lifeform all upgrade chambers and 5 ocs in each hive location, marines with every stucture and upgrade recearched and 300 res. Marines will win nearly every time. for the res they cost, HMG/HAs are far more effective then the equivalent alien lifeform (fades) and even at three hives, a good HMG team complimented maby buy 1-2 JPs as backup will be able to massacar any alein resistance and fairly quiclky take control of the map, if not overun the hive in seconds.
The onos is underpowered in its role against HMG wielding players. It needs a high skill required way of increasing the effectiveness against HMG teams that doesn't force it back out as soon as it enters the room the HMG are camping. Or at very least it does at hive 3... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='color:red'>I should respect other <b>players</b>, regardless of whether I agree with their <b>opinions</b>. I should not get the two confused.</span>
Comments
so we can make you and mustang a flying terror that can't die? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
They already ARE flying terrors that cant die :-\
~Jason
Make a jetpacker with an HMG move slower and/or burn fuel faster?
I'm not really asking for a full-on nerf. I just wish something could be done to either HMGs or jetpacks, because a JP with a level 3 HMG can easily solo any lifeform. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again you continue to make false statements. A commander can not drop a JP/HMG and tell the marine:
"Go kill the fade."
Realisticaly a JP/HMG can 'occupy' a solo fade indefinitly, not kill it. If the fade is 2 hives either of which are SC the JP will die. If the fade is 3 hives the fade will kill the JP regardless. Fades die when they are forced to attack. A JP/HMG holds little power in forcing a fade's actions. While the HMG can support a JP/shotgun(which holds advancing power) the solo JP/HMG serves little purpose in its self.
The marine team must pressure, advance, and force the fade into a situation where he has no alternative but to battle the HMG. A HMG alone has trouble accomplishing this. The marines must push with some other form of weapons. The fact that a few HMGs can kill lifeforms but hold little threat against structures is the cause of this.
In fact I dont know why you continue to make these referances to 1v1 battles at all. 1v1 battles can not be used as a standard to judge balance. Aliens move over twice as fast as marines and are expected to outnumber the marines in every situation. Saying a single marine should be equal to a single alien is a useless point.
Ya, I know im just not seeing it. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm not really asking for a full-on nerf. I just wish something could be done to either HMGs or jetpacks, because a JP with a level 3 HMG can easily solo any lifeform. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again you continue to make false statements. A commander can not drop a JP/HMG and tell the marine:
"Go kill the fade."
Realisticaly a JP/HMG can 'occupy' a solo fade indefinitly, not kill it. If the fade is 2 hives either of which are SC the JP will die. If the fade is 3 hives the fade will kill the JP regardless. Fades die when they are forced to attack. A JP/HMG holds little power in forcing a fade's actions. While the HMG can support a JP/shotgun(which holds advancing power) the solo JP/HMG serves little purpose in its self.
The marine team must pressure, advance, and force the fade into a situation where he has no alternative but to battle the HMG. A HMG alone has trouble accomplishing this. The marines must push with some other form of weapons. The fact that a few HMGs can kill lifeforms but hold little threat against structures is the cause of this.
In fact I dont know why you continue to make these referances to 1v1 battles at all. 1v1 battles can not be used as a standard to judge balance. Aliens move over twice as fast as marines and are expected to outnumber the marines in every situation. Saying a single marine should be equal to a single alien is a useless point. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh yes, he certainly can. And the only way a fade can <b>effectively</b> be safe against jetpacks is to get celerity. An onos is toast unless he has charge, a lerk will get chewed up instantaneously, and skulks/gorges are self-explanatory. It pretty much takes 2 hives to have a decent chance against a marine team fully equipped with HMGs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A JP/HMG holds little power in forcing a fade's actions.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhh... what? You can make the fade do whatever you want it to do if you have a jp/hmg. You see shotguns as "advancing" weapons, but you rarely need to kill structures to advance. All it takes is a phase gate. I'm not saying that a single marine should be equal to a single alien (actually it's pretty ridiculous that you're implying this), I'm saying that I feel it to be pretty unbalanced when a marine can take me down to the no armor zone as fade sometimes before I can even get a second swipe or escape blink off. Team support changes this very little, as unless the marine gets absolutely overrun by a ****-ton of aliens, a few medpacks and some marine movement will get that fade very, very low. It's been like this so long that people are seeing it as normal, and whether or not it should be is up for debate. I'm just saying that I think it would be a little more "fair" if they weren't so rapesauce, and who knows, if [when] commanders start using catpacks more, they'll really vaporize everything.
Even with an equal amount of aliens and umbra support?
Advanced Armoury = 30 res & 3 minutes research time
HMG = 15 res * 6 players = 90 res
135 res already spent not counting the res you need to spend to get that 135 res on res towers, arms lab, upgrades on the arms lab etc.
I'm with grahf on this one.
Advanced Armoury = 30 res & 3 minutes research time
HMG = 15 res * 6 players = 90 res
135 res already spent not counting the res you need to spend to get that 135 res on res towers, arms lab, upgrades on the arms lab etc.
I'm with grahf on this one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
armory = 10res m8.
I just find it kind of ridiculous that a catpack level 3 HMG can deal out 500 damage a second (dead regen fade in 1.2 seconds, dead cara fade in 1.6 seconds). With a non-catpack level 2 HMG (mildly more realistic), you're looking at about 375 damage a second, which equates to about 1.6 seconds for a regen fade and about 2.2 seconds for a cara fade. Sometimes it takes that much time just to get close to your target (think cargo on tanith, one HMG can toast a fade disgustingly easily in there).
You also forgot to factor hit reg in and we all know that is very, very bad with a fade.
EDIT- AND YES I KNOW YOUR NOT SERIOUS <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I am serious. Level 3 HMGs are a flipping joke, they need to be nerfed at least a <b>little bit</b>. You know that if you simply stand on an elevated surface/ramp and employ a little bit of marine movement (sometimes you don't even need this), a single marine can hold off or even kill an onos? Come on, tell me that's balanced and fair. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
did it with a shotty. mighta been a bit hurt tho. still took like 5-6 shots
You also forgot to factor hit reg in and we all know that is very, very bad with a fade. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's very easy to get 90% percent of your shots to hit with the HMG, assuming that you have good aim. Also, the spread isn't all that bad against a large lifeform like a fade. As for hit reg, the only thing that it will do is cause the fade to die a few tenths of a second after the death shot has been taken.
You continue to say a JP/HMG owns. OK, fine, we agree.
That is not grounds for changing them.
JP/HMG seldom lets the marine team come back from a losing game (which imo would be a sign of imbalance). A JP/Shotgun has almost the strategic value of a JP/HMG for less resources. A JP/shotgun group can rush a hive and kill it. While a JP/HMG will fly around and basicaly acomplish nothing that this stage in the game.
Getting a phase gate is NOT all it takes. Maybe early game. At the stage in the game where JP/HMGs are flying around the alien team better have two hives. A PG push is more than likly going to fail. Look at it this way. You had 100 res and JP tech. The other team has two hives and both chambers. Would you rather send 4 JP/Shotguns to rush a hive OR 2 JP/HMGs to get a phase up, then attempt to push the hive from the phase. The JP/Shotgun rush takes less res, is faster, and has a higher chance of success.
Now you have an option of sending the HMG to 'clear the path', but once you get into the hive the HMG is worthless against the hive(the real goal). So lets say you took those 4 JPs that rushed the hive, gave 2 of them HMGs. Now it should be a LOT easy for your marine team to sustain in battle, although now it takes twice as long for the to kill the hive.
Or you could attempt to simply dominate the map, killing res and lifeforms. HMGs would clear the map better but it is still going to suck at killing the RTs. Yes a fade without cel is at huge risk against a JP, but MC comes are up by the 2nd hive almost every game. In the rare case that an alien team didnt have MC by their second hive they MUST have SC, which is a huge threat in its self to the JP/HMGs.
HMG/JPs simply dont have the tactic power to turn a game. They may own lifeforms, but at the stage of the game where JP/HMG come into play it typicaly does not matter. The JP/shotgun HA/shotgun or just phase/shotgun can be equaly dominating in an equal range of late games. JP/HMG or HA/HMG gives an 'already winning' marine team an option to take down a two hive alien team. Without the 'godly HMG' the marine team would be even weaker than it is now at the second hive.
You continue to say a JP/HMG owns. OK, fine, we agree.
That is not grounds for changing them.
JP/HMG seldom lets the marine team come back from a losing game (which imo would be a sign of imbalance). A JP/Shotgun has almost the strategic value of a JP/HMG for less resources. A JP/shotgun group can rush a hive and kill it. While a JP/HMG will fly around and basicaly acomplish nothing that this stage in the game.
Getting a phase gate is NOT all it takes. Maybe early game. At the stage in the game where JP/HMGs are flying around the alien team better have two hives. A PG push is more than likly going to fail. Look at it this way. You had 100 res and JP tech. The other team has two hives and both chambers. Would you rather send 4 JP/Shotguns to rush a hive OR 2 JP/HMGs to get a phase up, then attempt to push the hive from the phase. The JP/Shotgun rush takes less res, is faster, and has a higher chance of success.
Now you have an option of sending the HMG to 'clear the path', but once you get into the hive the HMG is worthless against the hive(the real goal). So lets say you took those 4 JPs that rushed the hive, gave 2 of them HMGs. Now it should be a LOT easy for your marine team to sustain in battle, although now it takes twice as long for the to kill the hive.
Or you could attempt to simply dominate the map, killing res and lifeforms. HMGs would clear the map better but it is still going to suck at killing the RTs. Yes a fade without cel is at huge risk against a JP, but MC comes are up by the 2nd hive almost every game. In the rare case that an alien team didnt have MC by their second hive they MUST have SC, which is a huge threat in its self to the JP/HMGs.
HMG/JPs simply dont have the tactic power to turn a game. They may own lifeforms, but at the stage of the game where JP/HMG come into play it typicaly does not matter. The JP/shotgun HA/shotgun or just phase/shotgun can be equaly dominating in an equal range of late games. JP/HMG or HA/HMG gives an 'already winning' marine team an option to take down a two hive alien team. Without the 'godly HMG' the marine team would be even weaker than it is now at the second hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not talking about hives here, I'm talking about lifeforms. And with no lifeforms, unless you have 3 hives, leap skulks won't be able to kill the JPs in time. But that's beside the point. Shooting RTs and chambers with an HMG will do more damage than you think. You don't <b>need</b> those shotguns.
By the time marines have HMGs aliens should have or almost have their 2nd hive.
Umbra blocks 1/2 of the bullets? Therefore making the gun 1/2 as effective. Thats a pretty big nerf.
Call for backup if you see a group of HMGs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but by the time the aliens have 2 hives, they have won...
on topic more... I sorta agree that HMGs damage is a little too much but I think that if HMG damage is toned down marines need to be improved a little bit, especially in the early game.
I mean honestly being a fade around even a single JP HMG with good aim is just ridiculously dangerous. I dunno. Maybe reduce HMG damage but reduce shotgun cost when marines have an advanced armory or something, because as it is, a single HMG more dangerous than 3 shotguns in many rooms (cargo, rr on tanith for example). and it's a million times harder to pick lone marines out of a pack if they have a few HMGs, cuz they are just so much more effective at range than shotguns <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please remember what this topic is about, LvL 3 HMG. If the marines have lvl 3 weapons, an advanced armory with Jps before you have your 2nd hive you should loose.
Umbra is the greatest thing to combat the HMG.
The "strength" of the Kharaa game does have one major weakness. They require an expansion for each tech level.
The alien endgame is not stronger then the marine endgame. Set up two teams each with five resnodes, aliens with three hives and 100 res for every lifeform all upgrade chambers and 5 ocs in each hive location, marines with every stucture and upgrade recearched and 300 res. Marines will win nearly every time. for the res they cost, HMG/HAs are far more effective then the equivalent alien lifeform (fades) and even at three hives, a good HMG team complimented maby buy 1-2 JPs as backup will be able to massacar any alein resistance and fairly quiclky take control of the map, if not overun the hive in seconds.
The onos is underpowered in its role against HMG wielding players. It needs a high skill required way of increasing the effectiveness against HMG teams that doesn't force it back out as soon as it enters the room the HMG are camping. Or at very least it does at hive 3...
Nothing beats a third hive, unless the aliens are REALLY REALLY bad.
Look, in order ot advance in tech, aliens need hives right? So, if aliens have 3 hives, that means marines should have almost nothing. I've never, EVER seen a game with the situation you described swiftspear. It will never happen ever. When aliens reach end-game, in my book that means marines don't have much, if res towers and res, and aliens own 3 hives and have higher lifeforms.
3-hive aliens > fully-teched marines many times over if marines have little res. Even with lots of res, fully teched marines will have the odds stacked against them when the aliens have 3 hives. I guarantee you that no competent clan will lose if they have 3 hives, higher lieforms, and some res.
When marines reach endgame, that means they are well-teched, and the aliens only have one hive. See, this is the reverse situaiton, and the ONLY reason why marines have an easier time finihing off the aliens is because of Seige Cannons.
The alien endgame is not stronger then the marine endgame. Set up two teams each with five resnodes, aliens with three hives and 100 res for every lifeform all upgrade chambers and 5 ocs in each hive location, marines with every stucture and upgrade recearched and 300 res. Marines will win nearly every time. for the res they cost, HMG/HAs are far more effective then the equivalent alien lifeform (fades) and even at three hives, a good HMG team complimented maby buy 1-2 JPs as backup will be able to massacar any alein resistance and fairly quiclky take control of the map, if not overun the hive in seconds.
The onos is underpowered in its role against HMG wielding players. It needs a high skill required way of increasing the effectiveness against HMG teams that doesn't force it back out as soon as it enters the room the HMG are camping. Or at very least it does at hive 3... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Set that situation up and it'd have to be a really bad alien team to lose with web, umbra and three upgrade onos and fades.
It's more than a struggle to win vs two hive aliens when you have HA/JP and 5 nodes.
The alien endgame is not stronger then the marine endgame. Set up two teams each with five resnodes, aliens with three hives and 100 res for every lifeform all upgrade chambers and 5 ocs in each hive location, marines with every stucture and upgrade recearched and 300 res. Marines will win nearly every time. for the res they cost, HMG/HAs are far more effective then the equivalent alien lifeform (fades) and even at three hives, a good HMG team complimented maby buy 1-2 JPs as backup will be able to massacar any alein resistance and fairly quiclky take control of the map, if not overun the hive in seconds.
The onos is underpowered in its role against HMG wielding players. It needs a high skill required way of increasing the effectiveness against HMG teams that doesn't force it back out as soon as it enters the room the HMG are camping. Or at very least it does at hive 3... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='color:red'>I should respect other <b>players</b>, regardless of whether I agree with their <b>opinions</b>. I should not get the two confused.</span>