Both sound good, would be worth a try (not at same time btw <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
Raising gorge cost to 20 would slow down the aliens a LOT, and it would mean all skulks could defend map positions making it pretty impossible for marines to expand. I thought about raising it abit maybe 15, but then it would still mean 6 skulks defending positions say in a 6v6, then going gorge after first marine rush to build rts. Gorges not being able to build rts right away only really worked in 1.04 because the skulks were so easily killed and marines could take positions without any real trouble.
Making the gorge more expensive is really interesting, but the problem lies in the fact that any alien needs to be able to drop an rt at the beginning. So if you raise alien starting res, you get fades and the hive too fast. Rearranging all the costs on the alien side isn't practical.
doing little things like raising chamber build time is what needs to happen.
I personally don't like the idea of focus, celerity and adren on the same chamber. It would become the dominent chamber.
If you just take the cloak effect on life forms away from the sc it will be a big enough nerf to fix the chamber imbalance. All that remains then is the general alien bias that results from free upgrades, which imo, can be fixed by doing the +5 base armor, and welder upgrade ideas.
<!--QuoteBegin-gham+Apr 12 2005, 05:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (gham @ Apr 12 2005, 05:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Gorge cost 20 is too high I think.
You'd struggle to get any res towers up and ruin the early game.
I'd like to see the rfk gone and make the game more territorial.
It would be so much more about keeping your res and working as a team rather than rewarding frags.
If we combined this with the gorge getting mroe res than skulks again I think it'd add a different style to the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> word, i think the biggest problem ns has is alien rfk, though removing it could slow fades + hives too much? maybe just making it a maximum of 1res would work
oh and 20 res for a gorge would be far too high in my opinion, you'd have to go get kills before you could drop an rt and you couldnt afford to cap more than 2 rts as a team which would mean most of your time spent as a gorge would be running away from marines while it takes you 5 minutes to get the 15 res for another rt
well you're entering a balance nightmare with that. Why not just little tweaks? Fix the stuff thats broken. Make elec 20 res, or 20 seconds to research, make it more viable. Switch hand grenades and welders to make them both better.
<!--QuoteBegin-bertz+Apr 12 2005, 07:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (bertz @ Apr 12 2005, 07:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> tbh gorge should be 15 res, lerk should be 35
starting res should me 30
tbh
wouldnt make much difference at start of game, but i think it would if a hive was goin down or summit
i sed lerk to35 coz otherwise ppl can lerk at start obv..
bertz <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This would allow for even earlier fades 2nd hive and faster upgrade chambers. Not a good way to delay alien midgame imo.
currently the game is not VERY far from balanced when aliens use MC or DC.. SC is the biggest problem. (not saying its balanced just that it doesnt need big changes). Things like making the gorge cost more would in my opinion slow the alien res supply/chambers down too much and swing the game the other way. Same with upping marine armour too much. someone raised the idea of 1 marine being able to take 5 bites without dieing if meded between each one on armour 1.. Marines would be invinsible with an alert comm.
i think the current armour levels for marines tie just about right vrs non focus skulks.. changing them too much would swing the game too far to marines imho. a tone down of focus would be a better option imho.(if not remove it). instead of 2x the damage, 1.3x the damage would be a better option imho.. something to make armour 2 give an extra bite etc. or up only armour2 and armour3.. make the upgrades have a bigger effect.
this with welders upgrade would help lots..
Also someone said that SC's do not cloak themself <-- good idea imho as it gives the marines more of an oportunity to combat them + know when to expect cloaked aliens if they see a SC.
sieges not harming aliens is fine and well imho, but sieges deffinatly need to be stronger. 5 scans with 3 sieges should kill a unhealed hive imho.. so up the damage from 330 to 420 making it just under 16 hits instead of just over 21 hits. This would give a nice balance for marines without map control to be able to take down the 2nd hive.
a reduction in MT research time would be highly beneficial as a more realistic counter for MC.. something like 50 seconds instead of a 100 but keep the price the same as it would otherwise be used far too easily and inbalance the game.
finally, increase the damage that lmg does to structures/lower alien structure hp slightly. This would help marines slow the alien res supply down without effecting too much of the game.
Just some more of my thoughts off the top of my head.
A few number tweaks could make a huge difference though. Thing is, there are so many good suggestions which could all work, but all used together could simply be too much. The JP strat commonly used by terror and knife could become simply too powerful to counter, it nearly already is.
<span style='color:gray'><*snip* Please.></span>
It's important that we (clanners) continue to use this thread to prove that we are capable of providing rational, well thought out, structured feedback and changes that would benefit NS.
I'm seeing a lot of ideas being repeated:
- a welder upgrade instead of catpacks - a change to sieges, be it readd damage but in a less random fashion or simply upping the damage it does. - some sort of change to focus - some sort of change to SC - some sort of change to slow down the speed of which aliens can drop chambers, or just make it a more costly investment.
Not a clanner, but even from a pubber perspective, I think the general gist (give or take a few personal opinions) of Mr Ben's post above is a very good one (which is, of course, an amalgam of lots of other peoples points too).
RFK is a problem, but lets hypothetically put you in a situation where putting res down is slower and chambers go up later. If the game is generally balanced, then the better alien team should be able to grasp RFK and get that res down earlier, get the hive down earlier, get the earlier fade. But assuming all the numbers add up, then a better marine team shouldn't realistically be able to delay the alien mid game beyond say 4 or 5 minutes.
RFK helps reward the better teams, and get the game over faster, in theory...we know this. Just in its current state it means absolutely stupid advancement times for aliens in comparison to the very static times for research to take place in the marine camp.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
If sensory is grossly imbalanced while the other two chambers aren't THAT imablanaced, why not just raise sensory chamber cost to 20, and then also make L1 cloak actually WORSE than L3 cloak by say...making L1 cloak only cloak you 90% max. L2 gives you 95%, and L3 100%.
Never ever make cloaking 100%. I can stand being frustrated by something that is really hard to see, but something that is fully invisible will just make me never want to play again.
Ok fine I will leave my opinions on the development issues out of this thread from now on and post them in a seperate thread later today.
As for balance issues I think there are a number of fixes
early game: I think the main issue here is cloaking and marines lacking offensive fire power, thus I suggest cheaper shotguns maybe 7 res and either less effective cloaking at most say 70% even when motionless or cheaper scans say 5. Cheaper scans isnt as stupid as it sounds, currently seiging a hive is more difficult as gorges can sit on the hive healing, meaning you need more scans, and the comm wont always be able to scan a path for marines unless they are in a big group which he can focus his attention on and in a situation like this 5 marines you want the marines to have an advantage anyway.
mid game: This is really the aliens time to dominate, or this is how it worked in b5, my only thought here is that possibly cheaper and faster motion upg and similarly faster upg armoury would make this a little more even.
late game: This used to be dominated by marines, but this time in the game has swayed to the aliens, mainly due to skulks with focus and cloaking eating jpers and causing some major damage to ha. Here is where I think the biggest unrecognised problem is, that sc late game is killing marines late game and without sc aliens have less of a chance to win. My only thought here is cheaper major equipment for marines, cause lets face it when this period of the game rolls around marines wont or shouldnt have more than 2 rts and are usually gone, this would enable rines to possilby push out.
well I was discussing the same idea - as posted by Inverted- with my clan yesterday about making the weapons cheaper: eg. shotgun 7/8 res and hmg/gl 10 res instead of 15.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited April 2005
<span style='color:orange'>Remove personal cloaking.</span>
Replace it with an upgrade that negates motion tracking. (And maybe scan too, i.e. if the Commander scans an area with a kharaa in it, that kharaa will not be revealed.)
Frankly, motion tracking negates any point in trying to ambush or co-ordinate your team for an assault. It also acts as scent of fear for the entire marine team, with infinite range. For 35 resources, the marine team cease to need to scout any more. This is a one shot deal that researches fairly quickly and is the only marine upgrade I can think of that even helps the Commander actively.
It's the existence of this astonishingly lame gameplay aspect that paves the way for cloaking. If you give the kharaa a practical way to combat it, then you not only reduce player frustration, but you also add more tactical flexibility.
I actually agree with grendel here, I was thinking of this just last night how it sucks to play against motion tracking marines and how it'd be good to actually negate motion tracking significantly.
Also...just want to say again, can we think of alien nerfs before we consider marine buffs to balance it all out, the game is quick enough as it is.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<span style='color:orange'>Increase blast damage caused by hand grenades.</span>
This has the effect of:<ul><li>Allowing marines to scan using grenades</li><li>Allowing marines to kill chambers hid in inaccessible places</li><li>Making hand grenades actually useful, rather than a "yes we have them too!" feature</li></ul>
<span style='color:orange'>Reduce the Screenshake that comes with the Weapon Upgrades</span>
It's retarded and serves no real purpose except for making marines miss bullets, which makes weaponupgrades counter productive. Skulks require less bullets to die, but you are also more likely to miss since you're screen is bobbing up and down A LOT with weapons 2/3.
I think it should be removed for the LMG and Pistol, but kept for HMG. This will even out the playingfield a bit mid-game (upgraded skulks vs l1/2 weapons).
<span style='color:blue'>[EDIT]No need to shout[/EDIT]</span>
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2005
We're walking borderline I&S here now, relax a bit please. We're out after the balance issues, not any tweak or nerf possible.
Grendel and Entropie, "Scouting" is done by the comm. The comm can instantly tell at any time whether or not any given hive is up and which rt's they have.
Motion Tracking right now costs 35 res and 100 seconds. During this time the comm cannot scan or beacon. Assume that in 40 seconds the obs gets built, add 100 seconds to this and you see MT at the earliest at 2:20. If they go sc's first, the marines wont have armor 1, and the comm can't scan, making it impossible to take down rt's untill at least 2:45-3:00 Right around the time that fades start gestating and rt's become secondary to stopping the second hive. If i'm aliens, I'd rather defend my second hive against MT/a1/w0 marines than against a1/w2 marines who have an AA coming.
MT is not viable at the beginning of the game. Especially against SC's. Since its a strat that must be done either right away or late in the game because of the need for pg's, you must start it before sensory is confirmed.
It needs to cost less or take much less time to research. Preferably less time to research.
Comments
This would...
a) Make Electricity and turrets more effective
b) Slow kharaa expansion, particularly at the start
c) Give us back the best thing about NS ever, the "hunt the fatteh" mini-game
d) Make perma-gorging more worthwhile
By the time aliens get all chambers marines should have sufficient tech to reflect this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Raise Chamber costs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both sound good, would be worth a try (not at same time btw <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
You'd struggle to get any res towers up and ruin the early game.
I'd like to see the rfk gone and make the game more territorial.
It would be so much more about keeping your res and working as a team rather than rewarding frags.
If we combined this with the gorge getting mroe res than skulks again I think it'd add a different style to the game.
doing little things like raising chamber build time is what needs to happen.
I personally don't like the idea of focus, celerity and adren on the same chamber. It would become the dominent chamber.
If you just take the cloak effect on life forms away from the sc it will be a big enough nerf to fix the chamber imbalance. All that remains then is the general alien bias that results from free upgrades, which imo, can be fixed by doing the +5 base armor, and welder upgrade ideas.
You'd struggle to get any res towers up and ruin the early game.
I'd like to see the rfk gone and make the game more territorial.
It would be so much more about keeping your res and working as a team rather than rewarding frags.
If we combined this with the gorge getting mroe res than skulks again I think it'd add a different style to the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
word, i think the biggest problem ns has is alien rfk, though removing it could slow fades + hives too much? maybe just making it a maximum of 1res would work
oh and 20 res for a gorge would be far too high in my opinion, you'd have to go get kills before you could drop an rt and you couldnt afford to cap more than 2 rts as a team which would mean most of your time spent as a gorge would be running away from marines while it takes you 5 minutes to get the 15 res for another rt
A simple raise the cost of chambers / marine armour. Just liek one change needed.
OR
You can start thinking about changing all sorts like upgrades and stuff.
Does this version of ns need just a little tweak or do you want a larger overhaul?
Sure if one of the smaller tweaks means aliens arent so overpowered in the beginning great. We'll have achieved a better balance.
But for me I think something new is needed.. I want the useless upgrades gone (e.g. hand grens) and some new stuff. We all love new stuff.
A large overhaul isn't a good idea.
lerk should be 35
starting res should me 30
tbh
wouldnt make much difference at start of game, but i think it would if a hive was goin down or summit
i sed lerk to35 coz otherwise ppl can lerk at start obv..
bertz
lerk should be 35
starting res should me 30
tbh
wouldnt make much difference at start of game, but i think it would if a hive was goin down or summit
i sed lerk to35 coz otherwise ppl can lerk at start obv..
bertz <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would allow for even earlier fades 2nd hive and faster upgrade chambers.
Not a good way to delay alien midgame imo.
i think the current armour levels for marines tie just about right vrs non focus skulks.. changing them too much would swing the game too far to marines imho. a tone down of focus would be a better option imho.(if not remove it). instead of 2x the damage, 1.3x the damage would be a better option imho.. something to make armour 2 give an extra bite etc. or up only armour2 and armour3.. make the upgrades have a bigger effect.
this with welders upgrade would help lots..
Also someone said that SC's do not cloak themself <-- good idea imho as it gives the marines more of an oportunity to combat them + know when to expect cloaked aliens if they see a SC.
sieges not harming aliens is fine and well imho, but sieges deffinatly need to be stronger. 5 scans with 3 sieges should kill a unhealed hive imho.. so up the damage from 330 to 420 making it just under 16 hits instead of just over 21 hits. This would give a nice balance for marines without map control to be able to take down the 2nd hive.
a reduction in MT research time would be highly beneficial as a more realistic counter for MC.. something like 50 seconds instead of a 100 but keep the price the same as it would otherwise be used far too easily and inbalance the game.
finally, increase the damage that lmg does to structures/lower alien structure hp slightly. This would help marines slow the alien res supply down without effecting too much of the game.
Just some more of my thoughts off the top of my head.
<span style='color:gray'><*snip* Please.></span>
It's important that we (clanners) continue to use this thread to prove that we are capable of providing rational, well thought out, structured feedback and changes that would benefit NS.
I'm seeing a lot of ideas being repeated:
- a welder upgrade instead of catpacks
- a change to sieges, be it readd damage but in a less random fashion or simply upping the damage it does.
- some sort of change to focus
- some sort of change to SC
- some sort of change to slow down the speed of which aliens can drop chambers, or just make it a more costly investment.
RFK is a problem, but lets hypothetically put you in a situation where putting res down is slower and chambers go up later. If the game is generally balanced, then the better alien team should be able to grasp RFK and get that res down earlier, get the hive down earlier, get the earlier fade. But assuming all the numbers add up, then a better marine team shouldn't realistically be able to delay the alien mid game beyond say 4 or 5 minutes.
RFK helps reward the better teams, and get the game over faster, in theory...we know this. Just in its current state it means absolutely stupid advancement times for aliens in comparison to the very static times for research to take place in the marine camp.
As for balance issues I think there are a number of fixes
early game: I think the main issue here is cloaking and marines lacking offensive fire power, thus I suggest cheaper shotguns maybe 7 res and either less effective cloaking at most say 70% even when motionless or cheaper scans say 5. Cheaper scans isnt as stupid as it sounds, currently seiging a hive is more difficult as gorges can sit on the hive healing, meaning you need more scans, and the comm wont always be able to scan a path for marines unless they are in a big group which he can focus his attention on and in a situation like this 5 marines you want the marines to have an advantage anyway.
mid game: This is really the aliens time to dominate, or this is how it worked in b5, my only thought here is that possibly cheaper and faster motion upg and similarly faster upg armoury would make this a little more even.
late game: This used to be dominated by marines, but this time in the game has swayed to the aliens, mainly due to skulks with focus and cloaking eating jpers and causing some major damage to ha. Here is where I think the biggest unrecognised problem is, that sc late game is killing marines late game and without sc aliens have less of a chance to win. My only thought here is cheaper major equipment for marines, cause lets face it when this period of the game rolls around marines wont or shouldnt have more than 2 rts and are usually gone, this would enable rines to possilby push out.
Scanning for 5 energy would be too cheap. The commander can then scan almost constantly if he builds another obs.
Replace it with an upgrade that negates motion tracking.
(And maybe scan too, i.e. if the Commander scans an area with a kharaa in it, that kharaa will not be revealed.)
Frankly, motion tracking negates any point in trying to ambush or co-ordinate your team for an assault. It also acts as scent of fear for the entire marine team, with infinite range. For 35 resources, the marine team cease to need to scout any more. This is a one shot deal that researches fairly quickly and is the only marine upgrade I can think of that even helps the Commander actively.
It's the existence of this astonishingly lame gameplay aspect that paves the way for cloaking. If you give the kharaa a practical way to combat it, then you not only reduce player frustration, but you also add more tactical flexibility.
[EDIT]Punctuation.[/EDIT]
Also...just want to say again, can we think of alien nerfs before we consider marine buffs to balance it all out, the game is quick enough as it is.
This has the effect of:<ul><li>Allowing marines to scan using grenades</li><li>Allowing marines to kill chambers hid in inaccessible places</li><li>Making hand grenades actually useful, rather than a "yes we have them too!" feature</li></ul>
It's retarded and serves no real purpose except for making marines miss bullets, which makes weaponupgrades counter productive. Skulks require less bullets to die, but you are also more likely to miss since you're screen is bobbing up and down A LOT with weapons 2/3.
I think it should be removed for the LMG and Pistol, but kept for HMG. This will even out the playingfield a bit mid-game (upgraded skulks vs l1/2 weapons).
<span style='color:blue'>[EDIT]No need to shout[/EDIT]</span>
- One squad = one color in the minimap,
- Objective color in HUD & minimap depends on recipients: only me, my squad, everyone, a selection of marines, ...
- All objectives (mine and others) can be seen in the minimaps,
- Ordered objectives (First this RT, then this RT, then go to that hive),
- Display weapons and equipments in the score table, which sorts the players by squads.
Motion Tracking right now costs 35 res and 100 seconds. During this time the comm cannot scan or beacon. Assume that in 40 seconds the obs gets built, add 100 seconds to this and you see MT at the earliest at 2:20. If they go sc's first, the marines wont have armor 1, and the comm can't scan, making it impossible to take down rt's untill at least 2:45-3:00 Right around the time that fades start gestating and rt's become secondary to stopping the second hive. If i'm aliens, I'd rather defend my second hive against MT/a1/w0 marines than against a1/w2 marines who have an AA coming.
MT is not viable at the beginning of the game. Especially against SC's. Since its a strat that must be done either right away or late in the game because of the need for pg's, you must start it before sensory is confirmed.
It needs to cost less or take much less time to research. Preferably less time to research.