The Competitive Balance Feedback Thread
tankefugl
One Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, Norway Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
One Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, Norway Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Right, it's time for you competitive players to provide feedback on the current 3.02 balance. Is the game biased towards one side, and if so -- why?
Rational arguments with proper reasoning is more likely to be listened to than random statements with no real base. Shout-outs is not welcome.
I reserve the right to remove any post from this thread that do not give valuable feedback, so keep it clean.
Ready? Get set. GO!
Rational arguments with proper reasoning is more likely to be listened to than random statements with no real base. Shout-outs is not welcome.
I reserve the right to remove any post from this thread that do not give valuable feedback, so keep it clean.
Ready? Get set. GO!
Comments
Example:
Feeling that the "skulk" is overpowered to early, yet the hit registration for the skulk model is off giving the impression of a lifeform with too much health/armor.
I take it from the above that there is something specifically wrong with the skulk, or does the problem exist for all aliens and just manifest more when aiming at a skulk.
Is it particular to any weapon or just hitscan weapons? Is it specific to a particular hitscan weapon ( e.g. shotgun ).
Let us first rule out the extra bullet and shotgun falloff before we even consider this further.
There are however times where i feel that my shotgun is just broken. I shoot a skulk and it makes that sound that the shotgun makes with a point blank hit, and the skulk just looks at me. There have been times during 3.0 final where i have taken demo's and watched them in slow motion looking for reg issues. It just hasn't felt right since 3.0 final was released.
As far as balance goes, I think that watching Console walk all over LoC with sensory might give you a clue as to an sc chamber imbalance. LoC has a good marine side, although their alien is stronger. They didn't stand a chance against consoles alien. Console only beat LoC with a ridiculous shotty rush.
The extra res and the scanning ability in 3.02 is really nice, but it doesn't directly address the balance issues.
I disagree with the chamber imbalance. Them owning us with sensory was because I don't really have a strat to combat sensories. And Console shotty rushed because they knew we'd have a lot of gorges at the start <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Personally, I think this version is great. In beta 5 the aliens had to work hard to win, in 3.0F the marines do. The innate regen doesn't really have an affect mid-fight other than it taking an extra bullet to kill a skulk. Free upgrades makes early chamber drops viable as opposed to them being useless before having higher lifeforms.
All of these things force more teamwork in order to win, which I think is great. Gets away from all that counter-strike one man owns everybody thing.
You shouldn't need some ridiculous strategy like a HA rush to beat a chamber.
--P.S. Sorry for any crappy spelling and grammar, no time. >.> <.<
SC is definately an issue.
SC is definately an issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Focus is same as b5... As we are talking about a strat that will last only for 3 mins max; no cost for ups is not an issue either...
I wonder what makes focus rush special in 3.0F?
SC is definately an issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Focus is same as b5... As we are talking about a strat that will last only for 3 mins max; no cost for ups is not an issue either...
I wonder what makes focus rush special in 3.0F? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) It's <b>free</b>
2) It now can be used in <b>combination</b> with SoF (within sc range).
i notice problems much more when skulk hit and climb walls during combat.
remeber how skulks wallwalked in 1.04 thats what the hit boxes actually look like.
i think code was added to make the models align to walls but not the hitboxes.
its so much harder to kill skulk that doesnt hold crouch in close combat. sometimes it seems that bullets go right thru them. the so called nub hop.
Sieging has become an incredibly difficult proposition mainly because it isn't done until after 2 hives are up, and by then most clans will have sensory chambers (either first or second chamber). As I mentioned before, leaping focus skulks will do the same damage a fade does, and it is often too hard to kill enough of them before they reach their targets. Rushing jetpacks is difficult for the same reason (focus skulks will take them down in 2 hits regardless of armor upgrades), but also because forgoing upgrades early makes securing rts and attacking aliens very difficult.
To clarify, I feel that the changes to the skulk have made a significant dent in two of the options of attack marines used to have, enough of a dent to make me question their feasability. What's left is locking down 2 hives and heavy armor. The former leads to pretty boring games and the latter is difficult to pull off due to the cost and time involved.
So far, we already have one suggestion that has significant merit to it in here. Keep it up, please!
<span style='color:orange'>SC</span> is not used as a first chamber by many clans simply out of respect (although the 3.02 changes try to compensate its still too powerful).
Focus needs toning down. Armour 2 is useless when facing focus fades. It's like a waste of res.
Don't give sof through the chambers. Force aliens to employ one or two sof guys.
<span style='color:green'>MC</span> and the early skulk is shocking, a combo of silence and celerity is too powerful.
That's about it for now.
Make it cheaper, and faster to research. Doing this will open up a whole new door to the marine tech.This upgrade is really worthwhile, but currently due to its cost and the time it takes to research, it just is not a viable option earlygame.
Making it cheaper and quiker to research will mean teams will actually consider it as an early game upgrade, which widens up the game from a strategical point of view.
At the moment teams really only do motion once everyting else is researched, and there is a lot of res to be thrown around. If its made cheaper, we will see it earlier (even chosen as the first upgrade for some games) during most matches, which will throw an extra spanner into the works for aliens.
Just a thought, cause at the moment motion itself is just about never used competitively. Sure its there, but make it accessable and usefull. Dont keep it as an addon upgrade like it currently is, but make it a must have upgrade.
This is one way you guys can make the game more open and unpredictable.
25 res and 1 minute research time?
<span style='color:orange'>*</span> Why is the hand grenade still in ns? could replace it with something USEFUL
<span style='color:orange'>*</span> @Swirl I think thats an interesting idea but early MT would seriously screw dc/mc skulks over meaning it'll be back to SC all the time.
<span style='color:orange'>*</span> Combat needs to go. I think it's damaged ns for too long.
<span style='color:orange'>*</span> The last few new maps play really poorly, imo it seems that you've gone for eye candy over playability.
<span style='color:orange'>SC</span> is not used as a first chamber by many clans simply out of respect (although the 3.02 changes try to compensate its still too powerful).
Focus needs toning down. Armour 2 is useless when facing focus fades. It's like a waste of res.
Don't give sof through the chambers. Force aliens to employ one or two sof guys.
<span style='color:green'>MC</span> and the early skulk is shocking, a combo of silence and celerity is too powerful.
That's about it for now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is the core problem with 3.0f balance. The armor and damage numbers need to be tweaked such that armor upgrades make more of a difference against focus with little or no change in #of hits required without it. Durability should be considered as well so the upgrades don't lose their effectiveness from one parasite or being spored for half a second. Another solution might be to make welders part of standard equipment through an upgrade (similar to hand grenades). This would increase marine longevity, encourage teamwork, and open up new decisions regarding the building the upgrade would be on (do you upgrade the armory or research welders?).
I agree. Welders being part of default equipment is very interesting, I like it a lot.
Alternatively, I think that NS' development might greatly benefit from having high level clans help playtest the game before its release. That way, overpowered strats etc could be found quickly and the gameplay in the competitive area will be better. The non-competitive playtesters will be there to make sure the game is fit and enjoyable fo casual play too. Both competitive and casual sides would benefit from it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->. I don't know, just throwing a little idea here.
I was in a discussion with 2 devs earlier about the idea and basically they said go and set it up yourself.
They don't feel the idea is worthwhile.
I said it before, I'll say it again, and I don't see why I shouldn't say it in public: We are not going to employ a veteran-like program to complement the PTs any time soon. The PT group already includes a lot of competitively apt players, and our experience with whole clans has been that there are almost always a number of 'bad eggs' who don't feel it necessary to support a productive testing process by the most basic of measures - such as turning up for scheduled matches - "because the game is broken and it makes no sense to test it until the devs fix it".
Focus needs to be tuned down. Midgame fades just own everything with it. JPs die like flies, and it takes only 4 hits to kill HA. Its ok to kill a marine that has no armor in 1 swipe but you need 3lvl armor to survive 2 swipes? Dont even talk about welding the marine, there is no time when fade blinks in and back and then back again.
Yes alien game in the beginning is strong but the marines fight back well when they get armor 1, its more of a challenge really. The aliens tech up too fast thou, marines cant keep up with that 'cos the upgrades take too much time to complete or cost too much. Its really hard to get enough tech to kill the second hive when there are 2 fades and lerk guarding it. Second hive is put up usually around 3 minutes. There is no point upgrading the lvl2 armor against focus it gives no help at all. And almost every clan uses focus now at least with 2 hives.
Oh yes almost forgot. The skulk hitboxes do seem weird. Sg in pointblank doesnt sometimes kill them even with 2-3 shots allthou you hear the hit sounds. Also climp a wall with a skulk and face to look a marine, then try to shoot the skulk to different spots with pistol. You'll soon discover that about 50% of the skulks hitbox is gone. I dont know if this is the case in all ns versions but it needs to be fixed. Some ppl exploit this <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm saying that it should be tried again but executed differently. After seeing what's happened to ns, a lot of us (speaking on behalf of active Euro CLs I've spoken to) are deadly serious about setting up some testing with regular, useful feedback.
All we're trying to do is improve the game we want to like again..
Alot of good Ideas have been posted.
I thought I would like to add:
It maybe worth while to take a look at the alien starting res. I'm aware that its a complicated and delicate system in place but maybe reducing the starting res by 5 could slow down early the chambers, early fade and the early 2nd hive. There are alot of details involved here like RT cost and such but the idea has been released for elaboration.
it has been suggested before, but an upgrade for default welders to replace something relativly useless like hand grenades is something that should be seriously considered
i think the speed boost given by celerity should be reduced slightly, firstly because celerity skulks are very powerful early game, but also because aliens can reach such massive speeds with it that it just makes the reg problems in ns much worse
lastly, i think a change to seiges are needed, it's so stupidly hard now to seige a hive down with anything less than 3-4 seiges and a group of hmgers against a building hive unless you've totally dominated, and dont even think about trying to seige down a built second hive without almost total map control and equipped HAs. as annoying as seige damage was in b5 i think it's actually neccisary to make seigeing viable.
edit: oh and i think skulks need to lose their extra bullet they get from innate regen, making innate regen 4% every 2 seconds rather than 2% every second would be a good way to do this imo
10 res for handnades/ then 20 res for handnade belts (3 handnades in a clip).
the commander should allso get the option to be able to drop handnades like amo packs and cost 2-3 res
An adv armory should have the option to let all players start with welders, for about 20-30 res.
marine upgrade cost overall should be tweaked down abit.
... dont nerf aliens buff rines