Armour 1 Now Compulsory For Marines
MistenTH
Join Date: 2003-01-01 Member: 11706Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2003-01-01 Member: 11706Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Marines locked into fixed upgrade path</div> Aliens got the DMS chain broken. Yeh. But now marines are fixed into their own.
A1 is now absolutely essential, to combat lifeforms that can close in with the marines FAST or UNDETECTED, or FOCUS.
MT first is a risk, because it takes way too long to be researched, and fades are not far behind once it is up. Your marines are vulnerable.
PG first is also a risk as your marines are vulnerable as well, but at least you can reinforce a captured portion of the map fast.
Hand Grenades or AA upping or Catalysts...heh.
Weapons 1 is a toss-up, but I'm pretty sure you guys still prefer A1 more.
Elect and LD strat is still possible in pubs, but highly unlikely in 6v6 tourny as it takes too long and faces off weak marines against fades.
Relocation... is a tricky deal as it is very expensive, and the relocation area can be very gas friendly and have many tight corners and vents in it.
Shotgun rush... well that's a totally different story really, it can work yes, but it isn't a long term plan.
Anyone can think of any other opening strats that give marines a remote chance of winning? In pubs commanders have more leeway for different strats, but in tourny, forget it.
A1 is now absolutely essential, to combat lifeforms that can close in with the marines FAST or UNDETECTED, or FOCUS.
MT first is a risk, because it takes way too long to be researched, and fades are not far behind once it is up. Your marines are vulnerable.
PG first is also a risk as your marines are vulnerable as well, but at least you can reinforce a captured portion of the map fast.
Hand Grenades or AA upping or Catalysts...heh.
Weapons 1 is a toss-up, but I'm pretty sure you guys still prefer A1 more.
Elect and LD strat is still possible in pubs, but highly unlikely in 6v6 tourny as it takes too long and faces off weak marines against fades.
Relocation... is a tricky deal as it is very expensive, and the relocation area can be very gas friendly and have many tight corners and vents in it.
Shotgun rush... well that's a totally different story really, it can work yes, but it isn't a long term plan.
Anyone can think of any other opening strats that give marines a remote chance of winning? In pubs commanders have more leeway for different strats, but in tourny, forget it.
Comments
A valid excuse would be "It ties in with the storyline" but I dont think that cuts it. I'm hoping to see 3.0.3? or 3.1 fix some last minute balancing issues.
I'd say it'd be good to speed up research times, but then were looking at time at which we'd have almost immediate Onos/Fade gameplay and no time with skulks or lerks(pfft). I'd say cheapen em, but then the same thing would happen.
I don't mean that. In the past it was DMS because you'd need the Def benefit for the long times you'd probably be using it. And that'd be the only choice.
With marines you take A1 along with (assuming you're not an arse of a team and getting res) say, phase tech, W1...all within a minute or so of the first upgrade/research being made. It's not the same thing that DMS was.
I mean I do agree, that A1 is an essential upgrade...but...is that such a bad thing? It's not forcing the upgrade path, it's just one of those upgrades that has a wide benefit.
The only reasonable way would be to delay the aliens game, not speed up the marines. Drop the alien starting res at the very least. Either give them a period of no res income of a sense to give marines the head start, or also drop the gorge cost...
ugh I hate doing it, because it's not I&S here, but otherwise you're not going to get an idea of what I'm saying...
either a) drop starting res to somewhere between 20 and 22 and make aliens wait for res, as well as making it longer to fade or get a hive (as well as slowing down chamber production, one main source of the urgency for A1)
or b) drop starting res to something between 17 and 20 and drop the gorge evolve cost to 5. There would be a slight delay on RT production, but not a hugley significant one. Chambers would still be slowed, as would the second hive and fade, but gorges would still be viable for res and map control reasons.
These have been said elsewhere on these forums I'm sure...and they're (to me) the ideal way of sorting out the problem. You don't change the power of aliens, yet you do give the marines more time to choose their path and take some more control of the map, you do make the aliens work more for keeping res control, and ultimately you just realign the "power" of the two sides to more comparable stages.
As for it being compulsory? Nah. Get a good bunch of marines together that can aim, use teamwork, and can use sound/MT. Then get a good comm for support (Medpacks, Scan areas, etc). If they are smart and can aim well, you get MT. If they can dodge well, get Advanced Armory. If they can do none of the above, get Armor 1.
That being said, for the most part, Armor 1 is neccesary in Pubs. But thats what happens...
it doesn't matter how well they dodge if they never see it coming and achieve 1hit deaths.
First, armour rush is a "skill boost" to the nubbles, generally because they've a better chance of hitting a skulk thats biting them at point blank.
Second, it helps a stop to nasty focus-related massacres.
Third, if you get enough armour, you can have LA running around with welders and laughing at the skulks.
This means more rfk, and more rfk means more ups/weapons.
Is it compulsory? Only if you're 100% certain that you team is equal to or lesser skilled than their opponents. If you think you're on the positive end of the equation, then W1 is certainly viable because aliens simply wont get a chance to bite.
It just so happens that on pubs, you NEED A1 because you've no guarantee of the skill of your team (unless they're all regs you know), and second because you've no guarantee about your opponents (again see above).
In your average clan match, being that both teams are rolling around the same skill level, A1 is going to give a better edge than W1 (they could use W1 but a fade is still going to be blinking around like Death on crack).
So W1 is relegate to the rare occasion on pubs/pugs where one set of players know for a fact they they can hammer the opposition. Which is very rare indeed.
Incorrect statement. In previous builds A1 was not a requirment becuase skulks would not spend the two res required to get upgrades - but now that they are free skulks are more powerful than what they once were. Now that every skulk has carapace, or silence, etc. A slight boost in LMG damage should be considered.
Yeah but D was the only real choice for aliens. Now they have three good choices.
With Marines it is 100% essential you get armor1 first. If you don't you get booted. <-- that's a period
I like the idea but unless you have some suggestion (in which case this would go to the I and S forum) it really doesn't do anyone any good ... except maybe getting our heads together.
just my 2 cents
Now, things have changed <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=86623' target='_blank'>Armour Suggestion</a>
Basically, it's to boost marine armour a wee bit, although later on someone else came up with the idea to drop skulk damage to 74 and boost RoF to compensate.
Both ways give marines 3 bites at start, but is an advantage that is lost if they are injured by so much as a mosquito bite. (e.g. 1 parasite + 2 bites = death)
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90736' target='_blank'>New/Old Armour System</a>
This one is a suggestion made by Church, it's basically to revert back to the old 1.0x system, but with some changes so that it isn't as overpowered as that system was.
See what you guys think.
It all depends on the marine skill level tbh!
But yes most of the time you can't get a v.good skilled marine team together so marines are the under-dogs atm!
Armor 1 is a BASIC upgrade, therefore it has to be first-ish.
I say ish because there are more things to do at the same time now WHILE getting armor 1 thanks to the decrease in price of the Observatory and Arms Lab.
There are two other things I do about 1-2 minutes into the game, mabye, and then get armor 1.
-Early Hand Grenades. They're devastating against skulks.
-Early Motion Tracking. Devastating in the beginning.
-Relocations. For you crazy commanders, it works on a few maps very effectively.
Thanks to the obs reduction in price, it's finally a viable strategy to do early motion tracking. You can usually wait about 2-3 minutes into the game when Armor 1 IS necessary (So you can get Armor 2, etc.), but it's up to the commander to use other methods at his disposal.
I mean, if you can aim, Weapons 0 can last awhile. Although you still need Weapons 2 by the time fades show up. But other than that, Armor 1 is great because it's cheap and effective, and NECESSARY to reach higher techs. But if you're risky, try other things!
Early motion-tracking? No such thing exists. By the time motion finishes, aliens are just about to enter midgame (Fades start gestating) or have already entered midgame. MT needs to research a heck of a lot faster ot have be worthwhile early game...heck, to MAKE IT in time for early game at all!
a1 is required for other tech directly, but letting your marines not die nearly as much helps a lot, and it doesn't reuqire that your marines can aim ot be effective.
The marine upgrade path has more or less always been linear. It's one of a handful of fundamental things I dislike about NS.
Please remember redemption being effective for skulks, celerity allowing easier hit and runs, etc. Sure, not everyone used the upgrades, but some did. I know I did, and it was a decent tradeoff sometimes because it meant no kills for the marines.
Back to the topic at hand... it IS very disturbing that marines must rely so heavily on A1 for the vast majority of situations. Facing better aliens? A1. Facing equal aliens? A1. Facing MC first? A1. Facing SC first? A1.
Question is, how do you change the system with overbalancing in favour of marines?