<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Mar 21 2005, 08:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Mar 21 2005, 08:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> SwiftSpear, your strategy sucks. You assume that four marines can kill any number of skulks and that the alien team is completely incompetent. If they do go sensory first, you are screwed, since you won't have any upgrades coming in until at least 4 minutes into the game. That is a disaster. I'm betting you won due to the combination of sheer alien incompetence and good marines with good shots.
You leave base practically undefended, you delay upgrades, if skulks get upgrades, who's to say that even one skulk couldn't kill a group of four marines?
If I can't get armor 1 by 2 minutes into the game, if I started, then I consider either:
A. I am a complete retard.
or
B. My marines are complete retards.
You're counting on prolonging your vanilla marines via little or no meds and ammo when there is no armory? Good luck with that. I don't see armor 1 until at least 5 minutes if you bother to med/ammo your marines when they need it.
In short:
You win because of stupid aliens and really good marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> CRUNCH THE NUMBERS!
In all my theoretical scenarios I give skulks a higher k/d rate then my marines. The one game I have seen this lose the aliens nearly doubled the marine K/D, the teams were stacked, and we had 3 failed hive rushes, only then were we too in the hole to pull out a victory.
I don't know about you, but IMO a 3.0 marine strat that wins 90% of the games it plays in is pretty frigging unusual.
If you have 6 RTs you are not a retard even if it takes you 4 minutes to get armor 1.
In all these posts you keep having the same mind set that none of the marines are going to die at the start and you are going to get more then 2 rts up which is not probable. The game I played with this "pro strat by newborn" he didnt get the armory up till around 3 mins which was horrible, I was constantly asking for ammo and meds, yet his response time was horrible. We only won because I was keeping the aliens in line, and the aliens were incompetent and didnt drop rts or early upgrades. But you are going to post again, MY CALCULATIONS SAY IT WORKS. Your calculations are wrong.
In all these posts you keep having the same mind set that none of the marines are going to die at the start and you are going to get more then 2 rts up which is not probable. The game I played with this "pro strat by newborn" he didnt get the armory up till around 3 mins which was horrible, I was constantly asking for ammo and meds, yet his response time was horrible. We only won because I was keeping the aliens in line, and the aliens were incompetent and didnt drop rts or early upgrades. But you are going to post again, MY CALCULATIONS SAY IT WORKS. Your calculations are wrong.
It does work. Weather you choose to belive it or not. This strat gives marines the early game, which hasn't happend under any of the normal strats since aliens got free upgrades. If the marines have the early game they can take the late game, even if the aliens come back strong in the mid game. In 3.0 the marines claimed the early game with normal strats, and the aliens had to reclaim the game in the midgame or lose in the end game. This is exactly the same. I have seen several unstacked games where the marines took 8 res nodes within the first 4 minutes. Any way you cut that the marine end game is going to be VERY strong because of it, even if the aliens absolutly decimate in the middle game (which I have seen happen several times).
To quote GoDlol, who is absolutly right: <!--QuoteBegin-GoDlol+Mar 21 2005, 10:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GoDlol @ Mar 21 2005, 10:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your calculations are wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your problem is you need competent marines, and bad skulks. Or great marines, and competant skulks. At any rate, the marines WILL die. And you WILL NOT have enough res to research Armour 1, Weapon 1 or have enough res to drop shotties by the time the fade shows up.
EDIT: You should try this on a few different servers, hop into the chair and have your marines try this. Better yet, set up a game with a couple of the more able players (I wouldn't know who, certainly not myself) and give this strat a run.
As you said, weather you choose to believe it or not, this gives any competent Kharra team the upper-hand. Having tons of nodes is great, but your marines will get ripped apart in the process, and having dropped the TF and 2x RT, you will have a cash flow problem.
<!--QuoteBegin-mirrodin+Mar 22 2005, 12:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mirrodin @ Mar 22 2005, 12:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To quote GoDlol, who is absolutly right: <!--QuoteBegin-GoDlol+Mar 21 2005, 10:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GoDlol @ Mar 21 2005, 10:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your calculations are wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your problem is you need competent marines, and bad skulks. Or great marines, and competant skulks. At any rate, the marines WILL die. And you WILL NOT have enough res to research Armour 1, Weapon 1 or have enough res to drop shotties by the time the fade shows up.
EDIT: You should try this on a few different servers, hop into the chair and have your marines try this. Better yet, set up a game with a couple of the more able players (I wouldn't know who, certainly not myself) and give this strat a run.
As you said, weather you choose to believe it or not, this gives any competent Kharra team the upper-hand. Having tons of nodes is great, but your marines will get ripped apart in the process, and having dropped the TF and 2x RT, you will have a cash flow problem. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats intersting, expecially because in some of the games I've tryed it on we have had competent marines and great skulks...
LM is generally populated with about 60% regulars, and I play alot there, so I know the skill level of most of the other players. The games were not stacked against the aliens.
I can't guarentee it will work on a hyper high skill clan level type game, but from my calculations I would guess that at least much of the time it would.
I'm definately going to try this on other servers, and get other poeple who have pulled this off as comms to try it on other servers as well. Presuming you can pull off dropping a TF and no IPs in base first thing with out getting ejected, I'd like to see at what skill levels this works well on and what skill levels it struggles on.
LM only really well represents high skill public players well, with serveral of our regulars being at low cal omega skill levels, and a few of them reaching cal delta skill levels, as well of most of the generally pubbers that hop on at least being at experianced levels. So since that has been the only testing ground so far that is the only condition I can vouch for the fact that this works incredibly well in.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
I have crunched the numbers, and if you drop any structure besides an IP and an armory at base even after you get two res nodes, you won't have enough res to electrify the rest of your nodes in a timely manner.
You HAVE to pick between electrifying all of your nodes or getting upgrades. You can NOT do both. For each node you electrify, that's 1 1/2 level 1 upgrades or 1 level 2 upgrade. You say you can hold 5 towers at 4 minutes? That means you've spent a minimum of 120 res in electrifying. That res has to come from SOMEWHERE, and it'll come from the res that would've been used to upgrade. Sure you res nodes are kept alive for a few more minutes, but the problem is they've only barely begun to pay for themselves before the aliens get the lifeforms to destroy them.
And yeah, 2 gorges dropping chambers is fairly standard in all of the pub games I've played. Whenever I'm alien, we usually have full level 3 upgrades by 1-1:30. I really would still like to know how you can afford that arms lab and upgrades in a timely fashion. Why don't you show us the number crunching you've done? Give us a projected timeline of a hypothetical game.
This Strategy will not work if the alien team got even 1 competent player, as a skulk, that player will rip your marines to shreds before you got your first node up.
<!--QuoteBegin-Akalamanaia+Mar 22 2005, 04:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Akalamanaia @ Mar 22 2005, 04:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This Strategy will not work if the alien team got even 1 competent player, as a skulk, that player will rip your marines to shreds before you got your first node up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not so, it requires a reasonably competent player who is a good fade as well as a good skulk, and it needs a little luck on the aliens part countering the original node rush.
After a few more times trying this out I have found a couple good counters to it. First of all the early skulks have to stick together and work together. Taking out marines is more important then getting nodes up in a timely matter. You need to prevent the mariens from overrunning the map and dropping nearly every node in less then 2 minutes, because each node that is dropped is potentially an electrified node that your fades will have to take down later. Any of the 3 chambers is good for countering but you need to get it up quick. Because the marines have A0 and W0 longer then normal, and they generally don't get motion tracking until later, focus and silence both work well and are extreamly upgrades early on. This probably means 2 dedicated chamber gorges though, and it will mean less RTs early on.
As soon as you get a fade you need to prioritize getting as much alien res as possible. If the marines only have gotten up 4 electrified nodes you are still ok, you just need late fades and late onos to take them out right away when you get them. The longer you prolong getting higher eves in large numbers, the more difficult it will be to take control of the map and destroy the marines well defended res flow. at ALL costs you must not let one of your hives die in the early game. Your res flow needs to be focused on higher evolutions, you niether have the time to prolong 2nd chamber and 2 hive abilities, longer nor the res to waste on dropping multiple second hive. Marines will get weapons somewhere between when your first fade comes out and you late fades come out. You don't have to worry about the weapons too much if you keep your fades alive and only sacrifice skulks as fodder, what you need to do is take down the marine res flow before they can realisticly afford JPs or HA and W3 A3. All the games I have lost using this strat I was able to get W3 and A2 and drop a proto lab, but my res flow stalled out before I was able to drop more then one or two proto equipment peices.
This strat does work well, and when it goes properly you own the map in seconds like a steam roller. It is more high risk then a standard build, but if it is unexpected and done properly it can give a lower skill team a chance against a higher skill team, as with a little luck you can push yourself over the threshold and control so much of the map that there is no way the aliens can dig themselfs out of the hole you have put them in.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Mar 21 2005, 08:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Mar 21 2005, 08:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Watch the nations cup games for some high standard play.
Now, imagine these games played without a1 or shotguns. Also remove the obs and phasegate.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First I have to say that you can’t compare a clan war with a round on a public server. There are different rules. Many things that are quite common in clan wars may fail terrible in public play and visa versa.
While Swiftspear’s strategy has several serious drawbacks like late upgrades, late phase tech, etc. it also has it positive aspects and can work under special conditions. Special conditions are for that the alien main hive should be one of the outer hives so there’s a good chance for a 2 hive lockdown or at least lockdown of the middle hive and heavy pressure on the other hive location so the 2nd hive gets delayed as much as possible. Also there’s a surprise effect as this strategy isn’t used very often. I have made the experience that this strategy may work well against a significant better alien team. You may get less resources out of an electrified resource tower but at least you get resources while if you don’t electrify it you face the problem that your marines cannot defend it.
It’s a high risk strategy as all blocks have to fall into the right place.
Your marines have to be able to “break through” into the map and cap resource nodes and defend them while they electrify. You have to lock down a hive. Afterwards you have to bind the main alien forces at a location so the fades are not able to care about the electrified resource towers (preferred is the upcoming 2nd hive). And you have to kill the 2nd hive asap.
That’s a way too much condition need to meet to be a reliable tactic. Not a tactic to start out with but to select if you’re luckily capped 5 resource nodes and a middle hive while your marines are still controlling the map.
If you start out with that strategy normally you face the problem that your marines are not able to cap enough resource nodes because they have lesser upgrades. Even if you cap enough resource nodes you may fail to lock at least one hive because of the lack of upgrades and/or phase tech. And even if you were able to lock a hive you face the problem that you may not be able to bind the alien forces so fades kill most of your electrified resource towers early in the game. And if the 2nd hive goes up your electrified resource towers gets crushed easily by a cheap 10 USD alien.
High risk strategies are more often called "a retarded strategy that works only against nubs".
It IS unexpected because nobody expects the commander to be a masochist. You waste too much. Allow me to be the bearer of bad news.
Here's my projected timeline of YOUR strategy (keep in mind I'll be generous, but realistic):
IP->Tfac
2 nodes outside MS should go up by the 40 second mark.
By that time, you've accumulated 110 res.
Minus 30 for base, another 30 for the two RTs. That's 50 res left.
By the 52 second mark, I'll assume you've acquired 10 more res to electrify. Your marines should be running low on ammo now, so I won't factor RFK in my resflow. Let's say that RFK will pay for your logistics.
You should have gotten 6 res by the 1 minute mark. Now you need 39 more for another electrified RT. That will take 52 seconds. It'll go up by the second minute (time for building) and you'll be stuck at about 10 res for now. Drop an armory.
By the 2:30 mark, you'll have 30 resources. Drop an arms lab. About 2:40 into the game, you research armor 1.
After that, you'll realize you need to get an obs and get PG tech as well, so further expansion will be halted, but you'll have four elec rts pumping in.
3 minutes into the game, you'll have enough for an obs. Drop it, 3:16, you can research phase tech. Now, from the time from 3:16 to 3:40, you have 24 res. You'll research weapons one. From 3:40 to 4:12, you'll have enough for TWO phase gates. Now, you wanto to siege or assault a hive at the 4:12 time mark with 0/1 marines?
This is where the **** hits the fan because you won't be able to hold it at all. You'll have a fade and a lerk by then, coupled with skulks for support and they'll wipe out your siege spot.
After the second hive goes up, they'll bilebomb your RTs, suddenly you're down to base RT and your marines can't go out because you've wasted too much res and don't have enough upgrades and HMGs to finish the fades off.
<!--QuoteBegin-Scylla+Mar 22 2005, 06:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Scylla @ Mar 22 2005, 06:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Mar 21 2005, 08:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Mar 21 2005, 08:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Watch the nations cup games for some high standard play.
Now, imagine these games played without a1 or shotguns. Also remove the obs and phasegate.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First I have to say that you can’t compare a clan war with a round on a public server. There are different rules. Many things that are quite common in clan wars may fail terrible in public play and visa versa.
While Swiftspear’s strategy has several serious drawbacks like late upgrades, late phase tech, etc. it also has it positive aspects and can work under special conditions. Special conditions are for that the alien main hive should be one of the outer hives so there’s a good chance for a 2 hive lockdown or at least lockdown of the middle hive and heavy pressure on the other hive location so the 2nd hive gets delayed as much as possible. Also there’s a surprise effect as this strategy isn’t used very often. I have made the experience that this strategy may work well against a significant better alien team. You may get less resources out of an electrified resource tower but at least you get resources while if you don’t electrify it you face the problem that your marines cannot defend it.
[edit] Rapier: That is pretty much exactly what happened every time I have seen this stratigy fail. It is nessicary that you capture more then 4 nodes in a small sized game, even if you don't end up electrifying all of them. You need to delay the alien mid game and put your incoming res flow at a high enough that your end game kicks in before the aliens midgame gets established. It is possible to do in high skill/low player evironments, but it is much more of a gamble.
I do find it a little dissapointing, but it still is an INCREDIBLY dangerous stratigy in low skill pub games.
It’s a high risk strategy as all blocks have to fall into the right place.
Your marines have to be able to “break through” into the map and cap resource nodes and defend them while they electrify. You have to lock down a hive. Afterwards you have to bind the main alien forces at a location so the fades are not able to care about the electrified resource towers (preferred is the upcoming 2nd hive). And you have to kill the 2nd hive asap.
That’s a way too much condition need to meet to be a reliable tactic. Not a tactic to start out with but to select if you’re luckily capped 5 resource nodes and a middle hive while your marines are still controlling the map.
If you start out with that strategy normally you face the problem that your marines are not able to cap enough resource nodes because they have lesser upgrades. Even if you cap enough resource nodes you may fail to lock at least one hive because of the lack of upgrades and/or phase tech. And even if you were able to lock a hive you face the problem that you may not be able to bind the alien forces so fades kill most of your electrified resource towers early in the game. And if the 2nd hive goes up your electrified resource towers gets crushed easily by a cheap 10 USD alien.
It can work but probable will not. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The most successful enbodyments of this stratigy I have seen so far is just an instant and violent res push by all your marines right from the getgo. Within the first 1 minute you should have dropped 5 nodes and electrified at least 2 (preferably outermost nodes). If the aliens aren't on thier game and don't try to counter your push to the best of thier ability, they will end up steamrolled by virtue of your res flow.
Thus I have come to the conculsion that the higher skill the team you are playing against, the less likely this stratigy is to work. It CAN work in the highest level clan game, but it is much more of a gamble. In low skill pubs the aliens generally don't coordinate and focus on controlling the res near thier base far more then on pushing the marine res. In this case this strategy decimates nearly every time, even if the aliens have 1-2 higher skilled players.
Also it looks like the higher the player numbers the more likely it is to work, since aliens get fades later and are forced to contend with MUCH larger marine push groups that are taking map nodes, and taking alien nodes down. 12 skulks are useless for taking down electric nodes.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Well *duh*
If you are playing against people who don't really know what they're doing while your team has the coordination and teamwork, then almost *any* strategy can win.
And yeah, the bigger the game, the better off marines are in general anyways, so of course it'll work better on bigger servers.
Can you even drop 5 modes within the first minute and electrify 2 of them? Nodes cost 15 each. You'll still need a tfac (10), and then electrification for 2 is 60 more res. And then you'll still need at least an IP. You can NOT seriously think your marines will be able to just cap FIVE nodes somehow in the first MINUTE of the game without meeting alien resistance. Marines ARE going to die in fights unles the aliens are absolutely outclassed, in which case the teams are stacked anyways and you;ll win no matter what strategy you use, so that's another 20 res.
Look, ANY alien team that just sits by and lets your team somehow cap 5 nodes withint he first minute sucks anyways, and aren't worth playing against.
Give us your version. Ok. Let's say the map is Eclipse. Fairly marine biased map, and it's not that big. It is 6v6, and you'll need one guy to build base like you said. Tell me what route you'll have your 4 marines take (who will be all sticking TOGETHER, like you said), and cap 5 nodes within one minute. Remember, it takes about half a minute just to run from MS to Comp Core.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 21 2005, 11:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 21 2005, 11:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have seen several unstacked games where the marines took 8 res nodes within the first 4 minutes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So, thats lets see : Reactor Room (2) West Access Waste Chem Transport Satcom Acidic Cargo
Now marines have capped 8 nodes. And you're telling me its not stacked? You've just pushed the alienteam back to the Hive in under 4 minutes. With late A1 too. If you can do that, you might as well walk in.
And as for the numbers, you're spending 130 res on the Elec + TF assuming you just electrify 4 nodes - you start breaking even at 4-5 minutes. Without Elec, you have those 130 res when you need them most - that alone is enough to afford A1 and an armslab, an obs and phasetech, an AA and W1 or 2 SGs. And those are easy and free to hold up to the 4 minute mark, and past then they still take 44 seconds to go down each - and pay for themselves in 60 seconds.
So I have to ask, whats Elec getting you that you otherwise wouldn't have? Late upgrades? Gimped pressure? Making sure Skulks have 2 minutes to do nothing but defend from you or pressure base, because you're not making a profit on your RTs yet anyway? I just don't see the point. Yes you have won rounds, and yes you have electrified - but they're not related.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Let's look at it another way:
Electrification costs 30 res, which is two res towers worth. If I see a comm electrify, then I know that, roughly, it is the equivalent of the aliens taking down to node twice, without the aliens having to do any work! Now that the nodes are electrified, and you've already done the work of wasting res FOR us, the aliens are free to work together and destroy your marines, or hit base.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Just played a game with Swift then a game against him. We won when I was with him, but I think it was more due to alien incompetence.
Swift lost when Iw as on aliens, although I have no idea how that happened. We didn't put up the hive until like 7 minutes into the game due ot incompetence on our side, and they had before our second hive went up, and our only Fade died 30 seconds into his Fading because he sucked (we went sensory first. I joined a bit late as aliens). Can't really tell what happened that game because both teams kinda sucked.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 22 2005, 07:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 22 2005, 07:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The most successful enbodyments of this stratigy I have seen so far is just an instant and violent res push by all your marines right from the getgo. Within the first 1 minute you should have dropped 5 nodes and electrified at least 2 (preferably outermost nodes). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That’s the point. There’s no guarantee you will be able to drop 5 resource towers in 1 minute. What to do if you were only able to drop 3 and lost 2 others? What if they take the effort to kill 2 (or even more) of your electrified resource towers with gorges/skulks/offence chambers?
Beside any discussion about strategies there’s one truth – probable the only one: <b>No plan survives the first encounter with the enemy</b>
And your strategy is too un-flexible because it depends primary on the goal to get 6 resource towers and that they won’t get killed too fast.
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Mar 22 2005, 08:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Mar 22 2005, 08:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Let's look at it another way:
Electrification costs 30 res, which is two res towers worth. If I see a comm electrify, then I know that, roughly, it is the equivalent of the aliens taking down to node twice, without the aliens having to do any work! Now that the nodes are electrified, and you've already done the work of wasting res FOR us, the aliens are free to work together and destroy your marines, or hit base. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ya, but if you hold the nodes 5 times as long...
The second game some newbie who didn't know how to drop ips jumped in the chair. It took a good 30 seconds to eject him so when I got in I just played a standard strat rather then an elec RT rush. It didn't matter as my team wasn't able to take enough res to tilt the balance against churches sick as hell focus fade anyways.
The first game we got a little lucky, as if that shotty rush had failed we probably would have lost the game. It was close to failing too because newbies couldn't resist shooting the hives, which just brought waves of skulks movementing in, but with a good 7 sgs eventually focusing on it it went down in around 5 seconds. Really church and slick carried us that game. Our team was increadibly nub and you two guys were by far the biggest factor in us getting half the elec nodes that we did get up.
After the second hive went down the aliens had no chance, we had all the res on the map and it was basicly a cakewalk for fully upgraded light marines to march to the other hive and shoot it down.
<!--QuoteBegin-Scylla+Mar 22 2005, 09:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Scylla @ Mar 22 2005, 09:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 22 2005, 07:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 22 2005, 07:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The most successful enbodyments of this stratigy I have seen so far is just an instant and violent res push by all your marines right from the getgo. Within the first 1 minute you should have dropped 5 nodes and electrified at least 2 (preferably outermost nodes). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That’s the point. There’s no guarantee you will be able to drop 5 resource towers in 1 minute. What to do if you were only able to drop 3 and lost 2 others? What if they take the effort to kill 2 (or even more) of your electrified resource towers with gorges/skulks/offence chambers?
Beside any discussion about strategies there’s one truth – probable the only one: <b>No plan survives the first encounter with the enemy</b>
And your strategy is too un-flexible because it depends primary on the goal to get 6 resource towers and that they won’t get killed too fast. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It is unflexable to some degree... but is adventagious in that if it works it can give a less skilled team the game against a more skilled team just because they had a bit of luck.
It's was a well proposed idea, but, i think the bottom line is *early game* res expendature is really crucial. Besides, there are more efficent ways of protecting your resource nodes with your marines.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Swiftspear: That second game I joined the aliens a bit late (maybe 30 seconds, 40 seconds into the game?) Proceeded to drop 2 sensory chambers (and so had about no res at that point) in Cargo and Acidic, and THEN started saving for Fade. Your newbie comm and our team not dropping chambers kinda canceled each other out I guess but the main point is that, I, as a LATE Fade (I had to earn about 48 res as opposed to the 25 res early fades need to earn), our first Fade died about 30 seconds after finishing egging, and we STILL somehow managed to hold you back (getting JPs against sensory was a bad idea I think tho)
And I'll be the first to admit, that (especailly with my wierd lag I keep getting these few days) I am a mediocre Fade at best compared even to the rest of Omega division. My Fading skills aren't that good, and I was a late Fade, but yet with just a simple focus upgrade I was able to hold you back? What does that say about Fades and focus?
I remember you held double for quite a while, and at about 2 minutes intot he game you managed to cap Fusion, and secure it, and soon after that got Cargo node. That's 5 nodes you were teching on, which is enough I think. I was very surprised you didn't drop a phase gate outside waste as it was building and shotty rush it. Instead, you decided to use JPs on Satcomm, where the Fade (me) could heal and I can just whittle down your marines with focus.
Getting Fusion in the beginning was a very good idea, but just letting waste go up, even when you knew it was going up (or I think you did, because I killed a marine in waste as watse went up) was just...wierd. I could not have defended waste, because I had no way of healing.
That first game was pretty bad, I'll agree. Only like half the alien team went to defend their hive, and they had movements no less! I noticed that our electrified res nodes went down fairly quickly actually. By 5 minutes west access and double went down already if I remember, and they were all electrified. That HMG you gave me was a lifesaver though. I totally pwned that Fade hitting our PG.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
I don't think you can afford that many IPs and have phase tech at 2 minutes.
9 IPs=180 res. Obs=20 Phase tech=15. 2 phase gates=30. Armory=10. How are you going to get 255 res by 2 minutes? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> It's not possible. A better way is to relocate outide of the alien hive and get like 4 IPs.
And I still think his strat was effective. We only won that time because Slick and I totally outclassed the entire alien team.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Rapier, you could've put it a tad more nicely than that, but I have to agree with you somewhat. Only reason we won was because I and that other guy were spawn camping them for a while near the beginning of the game. I had a really really good score, and I clogged up the alien spawn queue for a while. If the aliens were actually on par with me, we would've had very little res.
Oh, and SDjason DID say his strats are INSANE...and I agree. they are insane. He didn't claim them to be effective.
Drug Lord: they'd ignore your RTs (at least skulks will) because theyr'e electrified, but hitting base will cripple the marines if the comm didn't drop a beacon machine.
No, Church, he means that Swiftspear is assuming they'd leave marine start alone, the RTs, and the pack of marines wandering across the map, ignoring their RTs under attack, and so forth.
That basically means aliens are doing nothing while marines just take over the map. That's why his strategy sucks.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Mar 22 2005, 05:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Mar 22 2005, 05:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, Church, he means that Swiftspear is assuming they'd leave marine start alone, the RTs, and the pack of marines wandering across the map, ignoring their RTs under attack, and so forth.
That basically means aliens are doing nothing while marines just take over the map. That's why his strategy sucks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Read? Please? They won't be attacking marine RTs because they will be <b>electrified</b>. I don't know about you, but I'm not a big fan of dying to electrification after getting 5 bites in. And MS can have an electrified TF; bonzai base.
2 of Eight, that's retarded. His game is even more res-tight, any other delays in getting upgrades will prove disastrous. Plus a base rush implies that every skulk rushes, one elec tfac won't stop five skulks, since only two are hit every time.
Comments
You leave base practically undefended, you delay upgrades, if skulks get upgrades, who's to say that even one skulk couldn't kill a group of four marines?
If I can't get armor 1 by 2 minutes into the game, if I started, then I consider either:
A. I am a complete retard.
or
B. My marines are complete retards.
You're counting on prolonging your vanilla marines via little or no meds and ammo when there is no armory? Good luck with that. I don't see armor 1 until at least 5 minutes if you bother to med/ammo your marines when they need it.
In short:
You win because of stupid aliens and really good marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
CRUNCH THE NUMBERS!
In all my theoretical scenarios I give skulks a higher k/d rate then my marines. The one game I have seen this lose the aliens nearly doubled the marine K/D, the teams were stacked, and we had 3 failed hive rushes, only then were we too in the hole to pull out a victory.
I don't know about you, but IMO a 3.0 marine strat that wins 90% of the games it plays in is pretty frigging unusual.
If you have 6 RTs you are not a retard even if it takes you 4 minutes to get armor 1.
<!--QuoteBegin-GoDlol+Mar 21 2005, 10:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GoDlol @ Mar 21 2005, 10:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your calculations are wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your problem is you need competent marines, and bad skulks. Or great marines, and competant skulks. At any rate, the marines WILL die. And you WILL NOT have enough res to research Armour 1, Weapon 1 or have enough res to drop shotties by the time the fade shows up.
EDIT:
You should try this on a few different servers, hop into the chair and have your marines try this. Better yet, set up a game with a couple of the more able players (I wouldn't know who, certainly not myself) and give this strat a run.
As you said, weather you choose to believe it or not, this gives any competent Kharra team the upper-hand. Having tons of nodes is great, but your marines will get ripped apart in the process, and having dropped the TF and 2x RT, you will have a cash flow problem.
<!--QuoteBegin-GoDlol+Mar 21 2005, 10:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GoDlol @ Mar 21 2005, 10:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your calculations are wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your problem is you need competent marines, and bad skulks. Or great marines, and competant skulks. At any rate, the marines WILL die. And you WILL NOT have enough res to research Armour 1, Weapon 1 or have enough res to drop shotties by the time the fade shows up.
EDIT:
You should try this on a few different servers, hop into the chair and have your marines try this. Better yet, set up a game with a couple of the more able players (I wouldn't know who, certainly not myself) and give this strat a run.
As you said, weather you choose to believe it or not, this gives any competent Kharra team the upper-hand. Having tons of nodes is great, but your marines will get ripped apart in the process, and having dropped the TF and 2x RT, you will have a cash flow problem. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats intersting, expecially because in some of the games I've tryed it on we have had competent marines and great skulks...
LM is generally populated with about 60% regulars, and I play alot there, so I know the skill level of most of the other players. The games were not stacked against the aliens.
I can't guarentee it will work on a hyper high skill clan level type game, but from my calculations I would guess that at least much of the time it would.
I'm definately going to try this on other servers, and get other poeple who have pulled this off as comms to try it on other servers as well. Presuming you can pull off dropping a TF and no IPs in base first thing with out getting ejected, I'd like to see at what skill levels this works well on and what skill levels it struggles on.
LM only really well represents high skill public players well, with serveral of our regulars being at low cal omega skill levels, and a few of them reaching cal delta skill levels, as well of most of the generally pubbers that hop on at least being at experianced levels. So since that has been the only testing ground so far that is the only condition I can vouch for the fact that this works incredibly well in.
You HAVE to pick between electrifying all of your nodes or getting upgrades. You can NOT do both. For each node you electrify, that's 1 1/2 level 1 upgrades or 1 level 2 upgrade. You say you can hold 5 towers at 4 minutes? That means you've spent a minimum of 120 res in electrifying. That res has to come from SOMEWHERE, and it'll come from the res that would've been used to upgrade. Sure you res nodes are kept alive for a few more minutes, but the problem is they've only barely begun to pay for themselves before the aliens get the lifeforms to destroy them.
And yeah, 2 gorges dropping chambers is fairly standard in all of the pub games I've played. Whenever I'm alien, we usually have full level 3 upgrades by 1-1:30. I really would still like to know how you can afford that arms lab and upgrades in a timely fashion. Why don't you show us the number crunching you've done? Give us a projected timeline of a hypothetical game.
Not so, it requires a reasonably competent player who is a good fade as well as a good skulk, and it needs a little luck on the aliens part countering the original node rush.
After a few more times trying this out I have found a couple good counters to it. First of all the early skulks have to stick together and work together. Taking out marines is more important then getting nodes up in a timely matter. You need to prevent the mariens from overrunning the map and dropping nearly every node in less then 2 minutes, because each node that is dropped is potentially an electrified node that your fades will have to take down later. Any of the 3 chambers is good for countering but you need to get it up quick. Because the marines have A0 and W0 longer then normal, and they generally don't get motion tracking until later, focus and silence both work well and are extreamly upgrades early on. This probably means 2 dedicated chamber gorges though, and it will mean less RTs early on.
As soon as you get a fade you need to prioritize getting as much alien res as possible. If the marines only have gotten up 4 electrified nodes you are still ok, you just need late fades and late onos to take them out right away when you get them. The longer you prolong getting higher eves in large numbers, the more difficult it will be to take control of the map and destroy the marines well defended res flow. at ALL costs you must not let one of your hives die in the early game. Your res flow needs to be focused on higher evolutions, you niether have the time to prolong 2nd chamber and 2 hive abilities, longer nor the res to waste on dropping multiple second hive. Marines will get weapons somewhere between when your first fade comes out and you late fades come out. You don't have to worry about the weapons too much if you keep your fades alive and only sacrifice skulks as fodder, what you need to do is take down the marine res flow before they can realisticly afford JPs or HA and W3 A3. All the games I have lost using this strat I was able to get W3 and A2 and drop a proto lab, but my res flow stalled out before I was able to drop more then one or two proto equipment peices.
This strat does work well, and when it goes properly you own the map in seconds like a steam roller. It is more high risk then a standard build, but if it is unexpected and done properly it can give a lower skill team a chance against a higher skill team, as with a little luck you can push yourself over the threshold and control so much of the map that there is no way the aliens can dig themselfs out of the hole you have put them in.
Now, imagine these games played without a1 or shotguns. Also remove the obs and phasegate.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First I have to say that you can’t compare a clan war with a round on a public server. There are different rules. Many things that are quite common in clan wars may fail terrible in public play and visa versa.
While Swiftspear’s strategy has several serious drawbacks like late upgrades, late phase tech, etc. it also has it positive aspects and can work under special conditions. Special conditions are for that the alien main hive should be one of the outer hives so there’s a good chance for a 2 hive lockdown or at least lockdown of the middle hive and heavy pressure on the other hive location so the 2nd hive gets delayed as much as possible. Also there’s a surprise effect as this strategy isn’t used very often. I have made the experience that this strategy may work well against a significant better alien team. You may get less resources out of an electrified resource tower but at least you get resources while if you don’t electrify it you face the problem that your marines cannot defend it.
It’s a high risk strategy as all blocks have to fall into the right place.
Your marines have to be able to “break through” into the map and cap resource nodes and defend them while they electrify. You have to lock down a hive. Afterwards you have to bind the main alien forces at a location so the fades are not able to care about the electrified resource towers (preferred is the upcoming 2nd hive). And you have to kill the 2nd hive asap.
That’s a way too much condition need to meet to be a reliable tactic. Not a tactic to start out with but to select if you’re luckily capped 5 resource nodes and a middle hive while your marines are still controlling the map.
If you start out with that strategy normally you face the problem that your marines are not able to cap enough resource nodes because they have lesser upgrades. Even if you cap enough resource nodes you may fail to lock at least one hive because of the lack of upgrades and/or phase tech. And even if you were able to lock a hive you face the problem that you may not be able to bind the alien forces so fades kill most of your electrified resource towers early in the game. And if the 2nd hive goes up your electrified resource towers gets crushed easily by a cheap 10 USD alien.
It can work but probable will not.
It IS unexpected because nobody expects the commander to be a masochist. You waste too much. Allow me to be the bearer of bad news.
Here's my projected timeline of YOUR strategy (keep in mind I'll be generous, but realistic):
IP->Tfac
2 nodes outside MS should go up by the 40 second mark.
By that time, you've accumulated 110 res.
Minus 30 for base, another 30 for the two RTs. That's 50 res left.
By the 52 second mark, I'll assume you've acquired 10 more res to electrify. Your marines should be running low on ammo now, so I won't factor RFK in my resflow. Let's say that RFK will pay for your logistics.
You should have gotten 6 res by the 1 minute mark. Now you need 39 more for another electrified RT. That will take 52 seconds. It'll go up by the second minute (time for building) and you'll be stuck at about 10 res for now. Drop an armory.
By the 2:30 mark, you'll have 30 resources. Drop an arms lab. About 2:40 into the game, you research armor 1.
After that, you'll realize you need to get an obs and get PG tech as well, so further expansion will be halted, but you'll have four elec rts pumping in.
3 minutes into the game, you'll have enough for an obs. Drop it, 3:16, you can research phase tech. Now, from the time from 3:16 to 3:40, you have 24 res. You'll research weapons one. From 3:40 to 4:12, you'll have enough for TWO phase gates. Now, you wanto to siege or assault a hive at the 4:12 time mark with 0/1 marines?
This is where the **** hits the fan because you won't be able to hold it at all. You'll have a fade and a lerk by then, coupled with skulks for support and they'll wipe out your siege spot.
After the second hive goes up, they'll bilebomb your RTs, suddenly you're down to base RT and your marines can't go out because you've wasted too much res and don't have enough upgrades and HMGs to finish the fades off.
Now, imagine these games played without a1 or shotguns. Also remove the obs and phasegate.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First I have to say that you can’t compare a clan war with a round on a public server. There are different rules. Many things that are quite common in clan wars may fail terrible in public play and visa versa.
While Swiftspear’s strategy has several serious drawbacks like late upgrades, late phase tech, etc. it also has it positive aspects and can work under special conditions. Special conditions are for that the alien main hive should be one of the outer hives so there’s a good chance for a 2 hive lockdown or at least lockdown of the middle hive and heavy pressure on the other hive location so the 2nd hive gets delayed as much as possible. Also there’s a surprise effect as this strategy isn’t used very often. I have made the experience that this strategy may work well against a significant better alien team. You may get less resources out of an electrified resource tower but at least you get resources while if you don’t electrify it you face the problem that your marines cannot defend it.
[edit] Rapier: That is pretty much exactly what happened every time I have seen this stratigy fail. It is nessicary that you capture more then 4 nodes in a small sized game, even if you don't end up electrifying all of them. You need to delay the alien mid game and put your incoming res flow at a high enough that your end game kicks in before the aliens midgame gets established. It is possible to do in high skill/low player evironments, but it is much more of a gamble.
I do find it a little dissapointing, but it still is an INCREDIBLY dangerous stratigy in low skill pub games.
It’s a high risk strategy as all blocks have to fall into the right place.
Your marines have to be able to “break through” into the map and cap resource nodes and defend them while they electrify. You have to lock down a hive. Afterwards you have to bind the main alien forces at a location so the fades are not able to care about the electrified resource towers (preferred is the upcoming 2nd hive). And you have to kill the 2nd hive asap.
That’s a way too much condition need to meet to be a reliable tactic. Not a tactic to start out with but to select if you’re luckily capped 5 resource nodes and a middle hive while your marines are still controlling the map.
If you start out with that strategy normally you face the problem that your marines are not able to cap enough resource nodes because they have lesser upgrades. Even if you cap enough resource nodes you may fail to lock at least one hive because of the lack of upgrades and/or phase tech. And even if you were able to lock a hive you face the problem that you may not be able to bind the alien forces so fades kill most of your electrified resource towers early in the game. And if the 2nd hive goes up your electrified resource towers gets crushed easily by a cheap 10 USD alien.
It can work but probable will not. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The most successful enbodyments of this stratigy I have seen so far is just an instant and violent res push by all your marines right from the getgo. Within the first 1 minute you should have dropped 5 nodes and electrified at least 2 (preferably outermost nodes). If the aliens aren't on thier game and don't try to counter your push to the best of thier ability, they will end up steamrolled by virtue of your res flow.
Thus I have come to the conculsion that the higher skill the team you are playing against, the less likely this stratigy is to work. It CAN work in the highest level clan game, but it is much more of a gamble. In low skill pubs the aliens generally don't coordinate and focus on controlling the res near thier base far more then on pushing the marine res. In this case this strategy decimates nearly every time, even if the aliens have 1-2 higher skilled players.
Also it looks like the higher the player numbers the more likely it is to work, since aliens get fades later and are forced to contend with MUCH larger marine push groups that are taking map nodes, and taking alien nodes down. 12 skulks are useless for taking down electric nodes.
If you are playing against people who don't really know what they're doing while your team has the coordination and teamwork, then almost *any* strategy can win.
And yeah, the bigger the game, the better off marines are in general anyways, so of course it'll work better on bigger servers.
Can you even drop 5 modes within the first minute and electrify 2 of them? Nodes cost 15 each. You'll still need a tfac (10), and then electrification for 2 is 60 more res. And then you'll still need at least an IP. You can NOT seriously think your marines will be able to just cap FIVE nodes somehow in the first MINUTE of the game without meeting alien resistance. Marines ARE going to die in fights unles the aliens are absolutely outclassed, in which case the teams are stacked anyways and you;ll win no matter what strategy you use, so that's another 20 res.
Look, ANY alien team that just sits by and lets your team somehow cap 5 nodes withint he first minute sucks anyways, and aren't worth playing against.
Give us your version. Ok. Let's say the map is Eclipse. Fairly marine biased map, and it's not that big. It is 6v6, and you'll need one guy to build base like you said. Tell me what route you'll have your 4 marines take (who will be all sticking TOGETHER, like you said), and cap 5 nodes within one minute. Remember, it takes about half a minute just to run from MS to Comp Core.
So, thats lets see :
Reactor Room (2)
West Access
Waste
Chem Transport
Satcom
Acidic
Cargo
Now marines have capped 8 nodes. And you're telling me its not stacked? You've just pushed the alienteam back to the Hive in under 4 minutes. With late A1 too. If you can do that, you might as well walk in.
And as for the numbers, you're spending 130 res on the Elec + TF assuming you just electrify 4 nodes - you start breaking even at 4-5 minutes. Without Elec, you have those 130 res when you need them most - that alone is enough to afford A1 and an armslab, an obs and phasetech, an AA and W1 or 2 SGs. And those are easy and free to hold up to the 4 minute mark, and past then they still take 44 seconds to go down each - and pay for themselves in 60 seconds.
So I have to ask, whats Elec getting you that you otherwise wouldn't have? Late upgrades? Gimped pressure? Making sure Skulks have 2 minutes to do nothing but defend from you or pressure base, because you're not making a profit on your RTs yet anyway? I just don't see the point. Yes you have won rounds, and yes you have electrified - but they're not related.
Electrification costs 30 res, which is two res towers worth. If I see a comm electrify, then I know that, roughly, it is the equivalent of the aliens taking down to node twice, without the aliens having to do any work! Now that the nodes are electrified, and you've already done the work of wasting res FOR us, the aliens are free to work together and destroy your marines, or hit base.
Swift lost when Iw as on aliens, although I have no idea how that happened. We didn't put up the hive until like 7 minutes into the game due ot incompetence on our side, and they had before our second hive went up, and our only Fade died 30 seconds into his Fading because he sucked (we went sensory first. I joined a bit late as aliens). Can't really tell what happened that game because both teams kinda sucked.
That’s the point. There’s no guarantee you will be able to drop 5 resource towers in 1 minute. What to do if you were only able to drop 3 and lost 2 others? What if they take the effort to kill 2 (or even more) of your electrified resource towers with gorges/skulks/offence chambers?
Beside any discussion about strategies there’s one truth – probable the only one:
<b>No plan survives the first encounter with the enemy</b>
And your strategy is too un-flexible because it depends primary on the goal to get 6 resource towers and that they won’t get killed too fast.
Electrification costs 30 res, which is two res towers worth. If I see a comm electrify, then I know that, roughly, it is the equivalent of the aliens taking down to node twice, without the aliens having to do any work! Now that the nodes are electrified, and you've already done the work of wasting res FOR us, the aliens are free to work together and destroy your marines, or hit base. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ya, but if you hold the nodes 5 times as long...
The second game some newbie who didn't know how to drop ips jumped in the chair. It took a good 30 seconds to eject him so when I got in I just played a standard strat rather then an elec RT rush. It didn't matter as my team wasn't able to take enough res to tilt the balance against churches sick as hell focus fade anyways.
The first game we got a little lucky, as if that shotty rush had failed we probably would have lost the game. It was close to failing too because newbies couldn't resist shooting the hives, which just brought waves of skulks movementing in, but with a good 7 sgs eventually focusing on it it went down in around 5 seconds. Really church and slick carried us that game. Our team was increadibly nub and you two guys were by far the biggest factor in us getting half the elec nodes that we did get up.
After the second hive went down the aliens had no chance, we had all the res on the map and it was basicly a cakewalk for fully upgraded light marines to march to the other hive and shoot it down.
That’s the point. There’s no guarantee you will be able to drop 5 resource towers in 1 minute. What to do if you were only able to drop 3 and lost 2 others? What if they take the effort to kill 2 (or even more) of your electrified resource towers with gorges/skulks/offence chambers?
Beside any discussion about strategies there’s one truth – probable the only one:
<b>No plan survives the first encounter with the enemy</b>
And your strategy is too un-flexible because it depends primary on the goal to get 6 resource towers and that they won’t get killed too fast. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is unflexable to some degree... but is adventagious in that if it works it can give a less skilled team the game against a more skilled team just because they had a bit of luck.
And I'll be the first to admit, that (especailly with my wierd lag I keep getting these few days) I am a mediocre Fade at best compared even to the rest of Omega division. My Fading skills aren't that good, and I was a late Fade, but yet with just a simple focus upgrade I was able to hold you back? What does that say about Fades and focus?
I remember you held double for quite a while, and at about 2 minutes intot he game you managed to cap Fusion, and secure it, and soon after that got Cargo node. That's 5 nodes you were teching on, which is enough I think. I was very surprised you didn't drop a phase gate outside waste as it was building and shotty rush it. Instead, you decided to use JPs on Satcomm, where the Fade (me) could heal and I can just whittle down your marines with focus.
Getting Fusion in the beginning was a very good idea, but just letting waste go up, even when you knew it was going up (or I think you did, because I killed a marine in waste as watse went up) was just...wierd. I could not have defended waste, because I had no way of healing.
That first game was pretty bad, I'll agree. Only like half the alien team went to defend their hive, and they had movements no less! I noticed that our electrified res nodes went down fairly quickly actually. By 5 minutes west access and double went down already if I remember, and they were all electrified. That HMG you gave me was a lifesaver though. I totally pwned that Fade hitting our PG.
INSANE-Me relocating to a hallway and building 3 arms labs cuz i wanna tech rush including catpacks...
INSANE-Me telling my marines they are to win using armor upgrades only
INSANE-2 minute bacon rush on a hive with 9 ip's and phase tech
INSANE-Relocationg outside or into a bottomless pit when there is no admin on
EFFECTIVE-Your Strat
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~Jason
9 IPs=180 res. Obs=20 Phase tech=15. 2 phase gates=30. Armory=10. How are you going to get 255 res by 2 minutes? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> It's not possible. A better way is to relocate outide of the alien hive and get like 4 IPs.
And I still think his strat was effective. We only won that time because Slick and I totally outclassed the entire alien team.
WTH are aliens doing for 4 min
Swiftspear, your strategy just sucks. You assume that teams are stacked to hell and that the aliens won't do anything for about 3 minutes.
Practically any strategy will work given that scenario.
Oh, and SDjason DID say his strats are INSANE...and I agree. they are insane. He didn't claim them to be effective.
Drug Lord: they'd ignore your RTs (at least skulks will) because theyr'e electrified, but hitting base will cripple the marines if the comm didn't drop a beacon machine.
That basically means aliens are doing nothing while marines just take over the map. That's why his strategy sucks.
That basically means aliens are doing nothing while marines just take over the map. That's why his strategy sucks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read? Please?
They won't be attacking marine RTs because they will be <b>electrified</b>. I don't know about you, but I'm not a big fan of dying to electrification after getting 5 bites in.
And MS can have an electrified TF; bonzai base.