Don't see why people really complain about +duck. Heck I hardly ever do. About 90% of the people should realize when this thing has been going on for 6+ months now that you should aim for the lower half of the body. Sure if they fix it I bet the fade is gonna need a bit of a armor boost, maybe, that is if they ever want to fix it.
Fades still die extremely easy if they just make one mess up even with the infamous +duck hitbox bug.
<!--QuoteBegin-explodingheadboy+Mar 20 2005, 07:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (explodingheadboy @ Mar 20 2005, 07:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 20 2005, 05:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 20 2005, 05:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Seriouly, do you have any idea how difficult it is to effectively +duck fade? To get the timing right between blinks and swipe is all but impossible to master. Even scripts are nearly useless since you rarely hold down blink while you fade, you only click it for breif seconds, so there is no point in binding +duck to blink.
Not that I don't agree that the ducking hitbox for the fade is stupid and borked, but rest assured, if you are getting raped by a +duck fade you would be getting raped even if they were not ducking, just maby slightly less so. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, it's pretty easy. You just press the duck key with your pinky when you need to. (Assuming standard keymappings) It's not like that particular finger is all that busy with anything else. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> IIRC the default key for duck is ctrl. Really quick you hold down ctrl and press 1212121212121212121212121212 as rapidly as possible with the same hand. I don't know about you, but I find doing so quite difficult, and thus if I were to attempt it I would be compleatly unable to blink swipe.
However I do not use the default duck key, I use mouse 5 as my duck key (thumb button on the MX510) and +duck fading is STILL EXTREAMLY difficult. The two major disadvantages is that when +duck is held contact with the ground stops you like a brick, and good blink tecnique is to generally skip along the ground with blink and +jump like a stone skipping on a pond surface. So +duck fading makes proper blinking an extream hassle and must be carefully checked to always be kept efficiant as a transportation method. Well you might say, why not just not use it for transportation then and only use if for combat? Well the obvious problem that comes to mind is that making blink conditions only change during combat is impossible to script, and thus blink ducking MUST be done manually. The problem with manual blink duck in combat is that you generally do not remain in blink status in conflict situations throughout the duration of them. Making every swipe a blink in blink out manuvour is MUCH MUCH too adreniline costly for any fade not wildly exlpoiting bloodlust on a 50 level server (which is in no way the concern of the NS devs). Thus to effectively use +duck blinking, you must time your duck perfectly so that as soon as you are in range exposed to fire you are ducking, as soon as you hit the ground close to a marine you stop ducking for the swipe attacking phase, and as soon as you decide you are retreating you are once again exploiting the +duck command. The fade is already and EXTREAMLY fast paced and complicated unit to master, trying to time in those commands effectively is EXTREAMLY difficult to do properly in any and all combat situations, even when your +duck key is very well placed and extreamly easy to press while still keeping mind to blink swipe.
[edit] Even if you can convince a few of them that the model should represent the hitbox better, you are going to have an extreamly hard time convincing clanners that +duck fades are unfair, as all of them have tryed it before and they KNOW how insanely difficult it is to impliment into effective fade combat. If a clanner gets killed by a blinkducking fade because he was +ducking, they are going to be aplauding him for being frigging awesome and totally deserving the kill rather then crying foul play, because it is honestly THAT difficult to use properly.
You're definitely putting a lot of effort into convincing us that the exploit is extremely difficult to use. But, you're really stretching the truth pretty far to do so. And after reading what you wrote I get the impression that you're over exaggerating.
(It's actually very similar in difficulty to hitting the duck key while leaping to avoid getting stuck to walls in midflight.)
The default bind for ducking is CTRL, and the default bind for last weapon is Q, together they make it very easy. All you might need besides those two buttons and the fingers to push them would be a few extra brain cells to handle letting go of the duck button briefly for the moment you might want to hit the floor and blink again, and, if you really need the extra lee-way, do the same thing when you need to press Q.
What may sound difficult to you can probably be pretty natural for other players. Thinking about when to hit that duck key probably isn't any harder than thinking about when to preform any of the other actions the fade is capable of. Yet you do your best to describe it as a strenuous activity. And even though it may be difficult for some, a lot of people seem to be pulling it off anyway.
During combat as a fade you make your approach and departure while blinking. The time spent closing the distance between you and the marines is a period when you should be vulnerable. If they're alert, or good shots they should have a fair chance of fending you off before you sweep in and kill one of them and then blink away. So, ducking while you blink to make your hitbox smaller than your model does have an impact on the game. While you may not remain in 'blink status' for the duration of a conflict, the time you do spend in it matters a good deal.
I'm not trying to convince clanners to play differently in an anything-goes competetive match. I'm mostly concerned with improving public games for all players. In the end I'm still leaving it up to them.
To much of this argument has been spent to justify the few who really more than likely use this tactic. Just dont get off subject. His original intent before it was derailed by someone with a grudge/issue with stating this problem (no matter if his observations were actually the oposite of the truth) is still apparent. Maybe if you spent more time going "Yes it is an issue, however..." instead of "OMG U TARD, GO START UR OWN MOD THEN CUZ I WANT TO KEEP UZING THIS". Maybe there would be more constructive posts.
(Note: I exagerated on my "examples" on purpose)
Grow up. Albeit this has pretty much been rehashed 20 million times, the person has a right to post his opinion in a clear and unabusive manor, and did so. You also have the right to /ignore this thread.
<!--QuoteBegin-GoDlol+Mar 21 2005, 12:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GoDlol @ Mar 21 2005, 12:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> IF you want to see a short clip of what they are talking about....
<a href='http://console.gibgames.com/movies/fadebox.avi' target='_blank'>http://console.gibgames.com/movies/fadebox.avi</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Excellent, thanks for the visual aid.
This is exactly why it isn't fair. As you can see the at least half of the fade's body is invulnerable while ducking. The pellets just hit the wall directly behind him. Entire shotgun blasts completely miss the fade when they really should be hitting him.
Ducking specifically to take advantage of this is definitely not fair play, whether it can be done or not. And personally, I think trying to justify it is ridiculous.
<!--QuoteBegin-Axel Stone+Mar 21 2005, 12:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Axel Stone @ Mar 21 2005, 12:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To much of this argument has been spent to justify the few who really more than likely use this tactic. Just dont get off subject. His original intent before it was derailed by someone with a grudge/issue with stating this problem (no matter if his observations were actually the oposite of the truth) is still apparent. Maybe if you spent more time going "Yes it is an issue, however..." instead of "OMG U TARD, GO START UR OWN MOD THEN CUZ I WANT TO KEEP UZING THIS". Maybe there would be more constructive posts.
(Note: I exagerated on my "examples" on purpose)
Grow up. Albeit this has pretty much been rehashed 20 million times, the person has a right to post his opinion in a clear and unabusive manor, and did so. You also have the right to /ignore this thread. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for the support. I've been doing my best to keep things from deviating too much, but thats difficult for one person to do. Lets get this thread back on track before it's too late, eh?
Basically the idea is: If you don't have anything good to say, don't say it at all. And if you don't like my thread, just ignore it rather than try to bring it down.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Seriouly, do you have any idea how difficult it is to effectively +duck fade? To get the timing right between blinks and swipe is all but impossible to master. Even scripts are nearly useless since you rarely hold down blink while you fade, you only click it for breif seconds, so there is no point in binding +duck to blink. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> maybe you should learn a fingered instrument <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it is honestly THAT difficult to use properly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-explodingheadboy+Mar 21 2005, 12:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (explodingheadboy @ Mar 21 2005, 12:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're definitely putting a lot of effort into convincing us that the exploit is extremely difficult to use. But, you're really stretching the truth pretty far to do so. And after reading what you wrote I get the impression that you're over exaggerating.
(It's actually very similar in difficulty to hitting the duck key while leaping to avoid getting stuck to walls in midflight.)
The default bind for ducking is CTRL, and the default bind for last weapon is Q, together they make it very easy. All you might need besides those two buttons and the fingers to push them would be a few extra brain cells to handle letting go of the duck button briefly for the moment you might want to hit the floor and blink again, and, if you really need the extra lee-way, do the same thing when you need to press Q.
What may sound difficult to you can probably be pretty natural for other players. Thinking about when to hit that duck key probably isn't any harder than thinking about when to preform any of the other actions the fade is capable of. Yet you do your best to describe it as a strenuous activity. And even though it may be difficult for some, a lot of people seem to be pulling it off anyway.
During combat as a fade you make your approach and departure while blinking. The time spent closing the distance between you and the marines is a period when you should be vulnerable. If they're alert, or good shots they should have a fair chance of fending you off before you sweep in and kill one of them and then blink away. So, ducking while you blink to make your hitbox smaller than your model does have an impact on the game. While you may not remain in 'blink status' for the duration of a conflict, the time you do spend in it matters a good deal.
I'm not trying to convince clanners to play differently in an anything-goes competetive match. I'm mostly concerned with improving public games for all players. In the end I'm still leaving it up to them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> With the exception of focus fades which go in swipe once and go out, most fades are FAR more fulnerable as they joust around with marines in order to make kills. Poor fades wait to long and don't retreat until the last possible seconds, rarely this pays off, but generally it just means getting the last bit of damage put on you during your retreat, but the majority of damage done to fades is always done in the swipe period.
For the record, I agree with you that it is dumb that the ducking fade hitbox is nowhere near the size of the ducking fade model, but the problem is the model is to big, not the hitbox is too small. I assure you, I am not overexaggerating as to the difficulty of +duck fading. Any clanner can attest to the fact that it is increadibly difficult, and honestly, if you have never acctually tryed it yourself, what right do you have to argue that it is unfair?
Also high skill fades never use lastinv for blink-swipe, lastinv lags about an eight of a second before it registers and switches. This is no where near enough to seriosly effect para-bite, or switching marine weapons, but it is a MAJOR factor when you are trying to blinkswipe JPs out of the sky. Also any fade that is good enough to be +duck fading will probably be trying to sneak matabolism charges between every blink, effectively making it compleatly impossible to lastinv fade.
<!--QuoteBegin-mr drug lord+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mr drug lord)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->maybe you should learn a fingered instrument<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am reasonably competent with the piano and am currently learning to play the guitar. In all honestly learing to properly +duck fade is harder then learning to play a sonata on the piano (its funner though <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) because you are not working to hit the right buttons (keys) at an arbitrary timeframe withing the song, you must react to the inticricies of the map and properly control the movement of your fade to work around constantly changing and unpredicible circumstances. So not only do you have to have certian habitual timed reactions mastered, but you have to properly respond at a moments notice to compleatly different scenareos every single time you blink with the fade.
KenichiThis is not a pie.Join Date: 2002-11-01Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
explodingheadboy, i'm sorry to say that you might be fighting an uphill battle here. These types of threads always get flamed to high hell by somone. No matter what you tell people their opinions reign supreme to them. Let them hurt themselves in the long run. If they kill people now but die like crazy when its fixed then so be it. Its the way of the exploits.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kenichi+Mar 21 2005, 02:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kenichi @ Mar 21 2005, 02:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> explodingheadboy, i'm sorry to say that you might be fighting an uphill battle here. These types of threads always get flamed to high hell by somone. No matter what you tell people their opinions reign supreme to them. Let them hurt themselves in the long run. If they kill people now but die like crazy when its fixed then so be it. Its the way of the exploits. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> For the record I haven't flamed anyone. I could suck it up if the size of the ducking fade's hitbox was increased, but to say that it is currently massively unbalanced is just wrong. The ammount of skill that it requires to do properly is far and beyond any other unit or ability in NS.
[edit] good fades are good even when they can't duck blink. I really doubt we will see a massive increase of fade deaths if the hitboxes are changed. It isn't like an aim bot, where you take it away and all of a sudden the player who looked really skilled before now looks terrible, the players that are doing it right now are INSANELY skilled to begin with, so they may be slightly less usefull when it is removed, but they will still be the game's top level fades.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
I just use +duck when I blink straight into one marine or while slashing a building. Those guys who don't hit me in that position (because of the bug) aren't a threat anyway.
At least I tell a player about this bug, when he only aims for the head. That's the most important thing to do, imo, because these people won't visit the forum or read anything about the game. They just have to realize it while playing and maybe receiving a hint about it. By the way, similar problem with bhopping and scripting which would have a better reputation, if people received more information about it by players who used it against them.
<!--QuoteBegin-pSyk0mAn+Mar 21 2005, 06:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (pSyk0mAn @ Mar 21 2005, 06:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just use +duck when I blink straight into one marine or while slashing a building. Those guys who don't hit me in that position (because of the bug) aren't a threat anyway.
At least I tell a player about this bug, when he only aims for the head. That's the most important thing to do, imo, because these people won't visit the forum or read anything about the game. They just have to realize it while playing and maybe receiving a hint about it. By the way, similar problem with bhopping and scripting which would have a better reputation, if people received more information about it by players who used it against them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quoted for emphasis.
personally I wasnt aware of this bug as I had more than likely been away from NS when it occured.
Thing is I have always used duck as fade, as onos and marine, your a smaller target.. simple just dont wanna get yelled at for it, but now knowing this will make an effort to remember no fade ducking its a bit poop <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited March 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 21 2005, 01:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 21 2005, 01:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I assure you, I am not overexaggerating as to the difficulty of +duck fading. Any clanner can attest to the fact that it is increadibly difficult, and honestly, if you have never acctually tryed it yourself, what right do you have to argue that it is unfair?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Err, sorry, but I don't find it difficult at all. :/ My little finger rarely leaves my duck key (shift), so I have no trouble holding the key when needed. Also, if holding duck was really so difficult, you'd see a lot less bunnyhopping, as it is required to bunnyhop as a skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 21 2005, 01:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 21 2005, 01:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-mr drug lord+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mr drug lord)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->maybe you should learn a fingered instrument<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am reasonably competent with the piano and am currently learning to play the guitar. In all honestly learing to properly +duck fade is harder then learning to play a sonata on the piano (its funner though <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) because you are not working to hit the right buttons (keys) at an arbitrary timeframe withing the song, you must react to the inticricies of the map and properly control the movement of your fade to work around constantly changing and unpredicible circumstances. So not only do you have to have certian habitual timed reactions mastered, but you have to properly respond at a moments notice to compleatly different scenareos every single time you blink with the fade. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ok let me do a quick offensive sleep deprived analysis
in conclusion you mean your brain sucks, or your brain / finger interface sucks. I assume your musical expression and improvisation are lacking.
I told you it would be offensive.
I think you are going about the music the wrong way though. Although you can be robotically timing, that is not the only component of quality music production.
Playing the instrument is likened to playing the game thusly: striking the appropriate keys, making the appropriate physical manipulations, creates the desired responses
brain -> desired response. brain works the interface to create the effect. You create what you want through skillful, capable manipulation of physical objects. Have not thought about it extensively but responding to situations is like reading music. You read the situation and figure out what to do. Read the situation fast; synthesize right away what to do. And I must now add one more prediction: you are not at a level where you can speedread music and translate it into actions
in conclusion: practice. I don't know how one can affect brain plasticity but will never do if never try
<!--QuoteBegin-mr drug lord+Mar 24 2005, 06:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mr drug lord @ Mar 24 2005, 06:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 21 2005, 01:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 21 2005, 01:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-mr drug lord+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mr drug lord)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->maybe you should learn a fingered instrument<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am reasonably competent with the piano and am currently learning to play the guitar. In all honestly learing to properly +duck fade is harder then learning to play a sonata on the piano (its funner though <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) because you are not working to hit the right buttons (keys) at an arbitrary timeframe withing the song, you must react to the inticricies of the map and properly control the movement of your fade to work around constantly changing and unpredicible circumstances. So not only do you have to have certian habitual timed reactions mastered, but you have to properly respond at a moments notice to compleatly different scenareos every single time you blink with the fade. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ok let me do a quick offensive sleep deprived analysis
in conclusion you mean your brain sucks, or your brain / finger interface sucks. I assume your musical expression and improvisation are lacking.
I told you it would be offensive.
I think you are going about the music the wrong way though. Although you can be robotically timing, that is not the only component of quality music production.
Playing the instrument is likened to playing the game thusly: striking the appropriate keys, making the appropriate physical manipulations, creates the desired responses
brain -> desired response. brain works the interface to create the effect. You create what you want through skillful, capable manipulation of physical objects. Have not thought about it extensively but responding to situations is like reading music. You read the situation and figure out what to do. Read the situation fast; synthesize right away what to do. And I must now add one more prediction: you are not at a level where you can speedread music and translate it into actions
in conclusion: practice. I don't know how one can affect brain plasticity but will never do if never try <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> playing a fingered instrument is a totally different interface to playing a game. True in the far extream end it becomes similar, but musicians who can compose music on the spot are far and few between. When you learn to play an instrument, you learn certain songs and you get used to playing the right note at the right time by practicing that song. There is no way to do this accurately in game, the proverbial "right time" is different every time you blink and every time you aproach any object, other player, or the ground.
It is quite possible to learn to time your duck properly, but it is alot like learing to blink swipe, to really get the maximum effect out of it, you need to use it always at the right times. The thing is you already have to blink swipe with proper timing, and that lone takes a fair bit to master. +duck is one more thing you have to impliment and it takes just as long if not longer to learn then simply normal fading to begin with.
For the record, I was never intending to imply that +duck fading is difficult to do, it is just difficult to learn.
This is quite possibly the silliest divergence I've seen in a while. Though, with things as they are, I don't think it's far fetched to relate a keyboard to a fingered instrument.
the key is a developed "mind's eye", speed reading (re: game situations, this implies fast and good decision making), complex movement synthesis and execution, and timing. (Not talking about recalling a song, but having good timing - being able to time your actions as perfectly as possible. Good overall musicians, after all, have good rhythm)
Very important is the decision making as well. It is involved with the 1st three on the list above, and thereby implicitly mentioned, but someone can't play at the top level if they do not <i>know</i> the <b>best</b> things to do in the situation, even if they <i>can</i> do so. (for example if someone figured it out for them and told them)
I think this is a nice condensation I would study neurology if it was more lucrative and viscerally exciting
<!--QuoteBegin-WaterBoy+Mar 20 2005, 01:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WaterBoy @ Mar 20 2005, 01:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It really should be fixed-drop the whole other hitbox thing (the one that got messed up) these are good enough, just fix the fade. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In other words, just change the hitbox code without changing the hitbox code?
NolSinklerOn the ClorfJoin Date: 2004-02-15Member: 26560Members, Constellation
I play the trumpet.
But seriously, (on topic) I don't use +duck to fade. Why? It's just something I've never taken the time to do. However, I can still fade well, and +duck would only make me better.
I see no problem with the +duck exploit as of now...it's somewhat a skill, and you have to master it. Seriously, even in the future +duck will make your hitbox smaller, since the fade model will be smaller anyway. The hitbox just won't be as small as right now.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cagey+Mar 26 2005, 06:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cagey @ Mar 26 2005, 06:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-WaterBoy+Mar 20 2005, 01:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WaterBoy @ Mar 20 2005, 01:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It really should be fixed-drop the whole other hitbox thing (the one that got messed up) these are good enough, just fix the fade. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In other words, just change the hitbox code without changing the hitbox code? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Would certainly save you a bit of work.
Comments
Fades still die extremely easy if they just make one mess up even with the infamous +duck hitbox bug.
Not that I don't agree that the ducking hitbox for the fade is stupid and borked, but rest assured, if you are getting raped by a +duck fade you would be getting raped even if they were not ducking, just maby slightly less so. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, it's pretty easy. You just press the duck key with your pinky when you need to. (Assuming standard keymappings) It's not like that particular finger is all that busy with anything else. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IIRC the default key for duck is ctrl. Really quick you hold down ctrl and press 1212121212121212121212121212 as rapidly as possible with the same hand. I don't know about you, but I find doing so quite difficult, and thus if I were to attempt it I would be compleatly unable to blink swipe.
However I do not use the default duck key, I use mouse 5 as my duck key (thumb button on the MX510) and +duck fading is STILL EXTREAMLY difficult. The two major disadvantages is that when +duck is held contact with the ground stops you like a brick, and good blink tecnique is to generally skip along the ground with blink and +jump like a stone skipping on a pond surface. So +duck fading makes proper blinking an extream hassle and must be carefully checked to always be kept efficiant as a transportation method. Well you might say, why not just not use it for transportation then and only use if for combat? Well the obvious problem that comes to mind is that making blink conditions only change during combat is impossible to script, and thus blink ducking MUST be done manually. The problem with manual blink duck in combat is that you generally do not remain in blink status in conflict situations throughout the duration of them. Making every swipe a blink in blink out manuvour is MUCH MUCH too adreniline costly for any fade not wildly exlpoiting bloodlust on a 50 level server (which is in no way the concern of the NS devs). Thus to effectively use +duck blinking, you must time your duck perfectly so that as soon as you are in range exposed to fire you are ducking, as soon as you hit the ground close to a marine you stop ducking for the swipe attacking phase, and as soon as you decide you are retreating you are once again exploiting the +duck command. The fade is already and EXTREAMLY fast paced and complicated unit to master, trying to time in those commands effectively is EXTREAMLY difficult to do properly in any and all combat situations, even when your +duck key is very well placed and extreamly easy to press while still keeping mind to blink swipe.
[edit] Even if you can convince a few of them that the model should represent the hitbox better, you are going to have an extreamly hard time convincing clanners that +duck fades are unfair, as all of them have tryed it before and they KNOW how insanely difficult it is to impliment into effective fade combat. If a clanner gets killed by a blinkducking fade because he was +ducking, they are going to be aplauding him for being frigging awesome and totally deserving the kill rather then crying foul play, because it is honestly THAT difficult to use properly.
<a href='http://console.gibgames.com/movies/fadebox.avi' target='_blank'>http://console.gibgames.com/movies/fadebox.avi</a>
(It's actually very similar in difficulty to hitting the duck key while leaping to avoid getting stuck to walls in midflight.)
The default bind for ducking is CTRL, and the default bind for last weapon is Q, together they make it very easy. All you might need besides those two buttons and the fingers to push them would be a few extra brain cells to handle letting go of the duck button briefly for the moment you might want to hit the floor and blink again, and, if you really need the extra lee-way, do the same thing when you need to press Q.
What may sound difficult to you can probably be pretty natural for other players. Thinking about when to hit that duck key probably isn't any harder than thinking about when to preform any of the other actions the fade is capable of. Yet you do your best to describe it as a strenuous activity. And even though it may be difficult for some, a lot of people seem to be pulling it off anyway.
During combat as a fade you make your approach and departure while blinking. The time spent closing the distance between you and the marines is a period when you should be vulnerable. If they're alert, or good shots they should have a fair chance of fending you off before you sweep in and kill one of them and then blink away. So, ducking while you blink to make your hitbox smaller than your model does have an impact on the game. While you may not remain in 'blink status' for the duration of a conflict, the time you do spend in it matters a good deal.
I'm not trying to convince clanners to play differently in an anything-goes competetive match. I'm mostly concerned with improving public games for all players. In the end I'm still leaving it up to them.
(Note: I exagerated on my "examples" on purpose)
Grow up. Albeit this has pretty much been rehashed 20 million times, the person has a right to post his opinion in a clear and unabusive manor, and did so. You also have the right to /ignore this thread.
<a href='http://console.gibgames.com/movies/fadebox.avi' target='_blank'>http://console.gibgames.com/movies/fadebox.avi</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excellent, thanks for the visual aid.
This is exactly why it isn't fair. As you can see the at least half of the fade's body is invulnerable while ducking. The pellets just hit the wall directly behind him. Entire shotgun blasts completely miss the fade when they really should be hitting him.
Ducking specifically to take advantage of this is definitely not fair play, whether it can be done or not. And personally, I think trying to justify it is ridiculous.
(Note: I exagerated on my "examples" on purpose)
Grow up. Albeit this has pretty much been rehashed 20 million times, the person has a right to post his opinion in a clear and unabusive manor, and did so. You also have the right to /ignore this thread. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the support. I've been doing my best to keep things from deviating too much, but thats difficult for one person to do. Lets get this thread back on track before it's too late, eh?
Basically the idea is: If you don't have anything good to say, don't say it at all. And if you don't like my thread, just ignore it rather than try to bring it down.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe you should learn a fingered instrument
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
it is honestly THAT difficult to use properly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agreed kudos to skill and talent
(It's actually very similar in difficulty to hitting the duck key while leaping to avoid getting stuck to walls in midflight.)
The default bind for ducking is CTRL, and the default bind for last weapon is Q, together they make it very easy. All you might need besides those two buttons and the fingers to push them would be a few extra brain cells to handle letting go of the duck button briefly for the moment you might want to hit the floor and blink again, and, if you really need the extra lee-way, do the same thing when you need to press Q.
What may sound difficult to you can probably be pretty natural for other players. Thinking about when to hit that duck key probably isn't any harder than thinking about when to preform any of the other actions the fade is capable of. Yet you do your best to describe it as a strenuous activity. And even though it may be difficult for some, a lot of people seem to be pulling it off anyway.
During combat as a fade you make your approach and departure while blinking. The time spent closing the distance between you and the marines is a period when you should be vulnerable. If they're alert, or good shots they should have a fair chance of fending you off before you sweep in and kill one of them and then blink away. So, ducking while you blink to make your hitbox smaller than your model does have an impact on the game. While you may not remain in 'blink status' for the duration of a conflict, the time you do spend in it matters a good deal.
I'm not trying to convince clanners to play differently in an anything-goes competetive match. I'm mostly concerned with improving public games for all players. In the end I'm still leaving it up to them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With the exception of focus fades which go in swipe once and go out, most fades are FAR more fulnerable as they joust around with marines in order to make kills. Poor fades wait to long and don't retreat until the last possible seconds, rarely this pays off, but generally it just means getting the last bit of damage put on you during your retreat, but the majority of damage done to fades is always done in the swipe period.
For the record, I agree with you that it is dumb that the ducking fade hitbox is nowhere near the size of the ducking fade model, but the problem is the model is to big, not the hitbox is too small. I assure you, I am not overexaggerating as to the difficulty of +duck fading. Any clanner can attest to the fact that it is increadibly difficult, and honestly, if you have never acctually tryed it yourself, what right do you have to argue that it is unfair?
Also high skill fades never use lastinv for blink-swipe, lastinv lags about an eight of a second before it registers and switches. This is no where near enough to seriosly effect para-bite, or switching marine weapons, but it is a MAJOR factor when you are trying to blinkswipe JPs out of the sky. Also any fade that is good enough to be +duck fading will probably be trying to sneak matabolism charges between every blink, effectively making it compleatly impossible to lastinv fade.
<!--QuoteBegin-mr drug lord+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mr drug lord)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->maybe you should learn a fingered instrument<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am reasonably competent with the piano and am currently learning to play the guitar. In all honestly learing to properly +duck fade is harder then learning to play a sonata on the piano (its funner though <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) because you are not working to hit the right buttons (keys) at an arbitrary timeframe withing the song, you must react to the inticricies of the map and properly control the movement of your fade to work around constantly changing and unpredicible circumstances. So not only do you have to have certian habitual timed reactions mastered, but you have to properly respond at a moments notice to compleatly different scenareos every single time you blink with the fade.
For the record I haven't flamed anyone. I could suck it up if the size of the ducking fade's hitbox was increased, but to say that it is currently massively unbalanced is just wrong. The ammount of skill that it requires to do properly is far and beyond any other unit or ability in NS.
[edit] good fades are good even when they can't duck blink. I really doubt we will see a massive increase of fade deaths if the hitboxes are changed. It isn't like an aim bot, where you take it away and all of a sudden the player who looked really skilled before now looks terrible, the players that are doing it right now are INSANELY skilled to begin with, so they may be slightly less usefull when it is removed, but they will still be the game's top level fades.
Those guys who don't hit me in that position (because of the bug) aren't a threat anyway.
At least I tell a player about this bug, when he only aims for the head.
That's the most important thing to do, imo, because these people won't visit the forum or read anything about the game.
They just have to realize it while playing and maybe receiving a hint about it.
By the way, similar problem with bhopping and scripting which would have a better reputation, if people received more information about it by players who used it against them.
Those guys who don't hit me in that position (because of the bug) aren't a threat anyway.
At least I tell a player about this bug, when he only aims for the head.
That's the most important thing to do, imo, because these people won't visit the forum or read anything about the game.
They just have to realize it while playing and maybe receiving a hint about it.
By the way, similar problem with bhopping and scripting which would have a better reputation, if people received more information about it by players who used it against them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoted for emphasis.
Thing is I have always used duck as fade, as onos and marine, your a smaller target.. simple just dont wanna get yelled at for it, but now knowing this will make an effort to remember no fade ducking its a bit poop <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
"Look what I can do!" *spasm* "Mommy says people who complain about obvious game defects are deeply flawed and unpleasent men." :o
Err, sorry, but I don't find it difficult at all. :/ My little finger rarely leaves my duck key (shift), so I have no trouble holding the key when needed. Also, if holding duck was really so difficult, you'd see a lot less bunnyhopping, as it is required to bunnyhop as a skulk.
I must agree.
I am reasonably competent with the piano and am currently learning to play the guitar. In all honestly learing to properly +duck fade is harder then learning to play a sonata on the piano (its funner though <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) because you are not working to hit the right buttons (keys) at an arbitrary timeframe withing the song, you must react to the inticricies of the map and properly control the movement of your fade to work around constantly changing and unpredicible circumstances. So not only do you have to have certian habitual timed reactions mastered, but you have to properly respond at a moments notice to compleatly different scenareos every single time you blink with the fade. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok let me do a quick offensive sleep deprived analysis
in conclusion you mean your brain sucks, or your brain / finger interface sucks. I assume your musical expression and improvisation are lacking.
I told you it would be offensive.
I think you are going about the music the wrong way though. Although you can be robotically timing, that is not the only component of quality music production.
Playing the instrument is likened to playing the game thusly: striking the appropriate keys, making the appropriate physical manipulations, creates the desired responses
brain -> desired response. brain works the interface to create the effect. You create what you want through skillful, capable manipulation of physical objects. Have not thought about it extensively but responding to situations is like reading music. You read the situation and figure out what to do. Read the situation fast; synthesize right away what to do. And I must now add one more prediction: you are not at a level where you can speedread music and translate it into actions
in conclusion: practice. I don't know how one can affect brain plasticity but will never do if never try
I am reasonably competent with the piano and am currently learning to play the guitar. In all honestly learing to properly +duck fade is harder then learning to play a sonata on the piano (its funner though <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) because you are not working to hit the right buttons (keys) at an arbitrary timeframe withing the song, you must react to the inticricies of the map and properly control the movement of your fade to work around constantly changing and unpredicible circumstances. So not only do you have to have certian habitual timed reactions mastered, but you have to properly respond at a moments notice to compleatly different scenareos every single time you blink with the fade. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok let me do a quick offensive sleep deprived analysis
in conclusion you mean your brain sucks, or your brain / finger interface sucks. I assume your musical expression and improvisation are lacking.
I told you it would be offensive.
I think you are going about the music the wrong way though. Although you can be robotically timing, that is not the only component of quality music production.
Playing the instrument is likened to playing the game thusly: striking the appropriate keys, making the appropriate physical manipulations, creates the desired responses
brain -> desired response. brain works the interface to create the effect. You create what you want through skillful, capable manipulation of physical objects. Have not thought about it extensively but responding to situations is like reading music. You read the situation and figure out what to do. Read the situation fast; synthesize right away what to do. And I must now add one more prediction: you are not at a level where you can speedread music and translate it into actions
in conclusion: practice. I don't know how one can affect brain plasticity but will never do if never try <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
playing a fingered instrument is a totally different interface to playing a game. True in the far extream end it becomes similar, but musicians who can compose music on the spot are far and few between. When you learn to play an instrument, you learn certain songs and you get used to playing the right note at the right time by practicing that song. There is no way to do this accurately in game, the proverbial "right time" is different every time you blink and every time you aproach any object, other player, or the ground.
It is quite possible to learn to time your duck properly, but it is alot like learing to blink swipe, to really get the maximum effect out of it, you need to use it always at the right times. The thing is you already have to blink swipe with proper timing, and that lone takes a fair bit to master. +duck is one more thing you have to impliment and it takes just as long if not longer to learn then simply normal fading to begin with.
For the record, I was never intending to imply that +duck fading is difficult to do, it is just difficult to learn.
There is a slight difference.
Also, I belive that it is quite alot harder to play the piano very well than it is to fade in NS.
Very important is the decision making as well. It is involved with the 1st three on the list above, and thereby implicitly mentioned, but someone can't play at the top level if they do not <i>know</i> the <b>best</b> things to do in the situation, even if they <i>can</i> do so. (for example if someone figured it out for them and told them)
I think this is a nice condensation
I would study neurology if it was more lucrative and viscerally exciting
In other words, just change the hitbox code without changing the hitbox code?
But seriously, (on topic) I don't use +duck to fade. Why? It's just something I've never taken the time to do. However, I can still fade well, and +duck would only make me better.
I see no problem with the +duck exploit as of now...it's somewhat a skill, and you have to master it. Seriously, even in the future +duck will make your hitbox smaller, since the fade model will be smaller anyway. The hitbox just won't be as small as right now.
In other words, just change the hitbox code without changing the hitbox code? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would certainly save you a bit of work.