I'm Extremely Pleased With 3.0
explodingheadboy
Join Date: 2003-04-18 Member: 15636Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-04-18 Member: 15636Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">With one exception, the +duck fades :(</div> First off, I'd like to say that after giving 3.0 enough time to pan out and allow all the players to adjust. I love it. The balance feels "just about right" it might not be perfect, but it is indeed playable. The game is more fun than frustration, which is a giant leap forward since the last few patches have been hit-or-miss, and sometimes slightly more frustration than fun.
Now that some of the worst bugs are fixed, game balance seems to have panned out, and the alien game can work while now always flowing through DMS. Excellent.
I have one complaint though. If this is the final polished version of 3.0, why haven't +duck fades been fixed yet? (For those of you who may not know, the crouching fade's hitbox is messed up and you can only hit it's legs and feet while bullets above its midsection miss whether or not they're on target with the torso. This is a glaring defect in NS gameplay.) You can usually spot a +duck fade by looking for an abnormally fast crawling animation while it blinks, and generally a +duck fade will crouch unless it needs walk the remaining distance to a target.
Fades that played this way used to be fairly common while the hitbox bug was a hot topic, then it died down for a while, but I'm seeing more of them again now that the new version is released. At present I think it's the only thing wrong with the fade. And for those players who'll do anything to win it's becoming quite apparent that they don't consider this particular exploit a cheat. To be honest I wouldn't quite call it a cheat either, but it is in no way a fair way to play, and with that in mind 'cheat' the best one word description I can think of for that. The fade isn't meant to have an invulnerable torso, and I'm hoping that those players who read my thread will show some good sportsmanship and not use this information to gain an unfair advantage.
And for those players who do play this way, please stop. What will you do when this is finally fixed? You certainly won't be able to rely on a bug in the game to dodge bullets. Instead you'll have to use your head and pick your fights, rather than blink into a crowd and hope they're naive enough to shoot at center mass. You also won't be able to hid behind a resource tower and force marines to come within slashing range to defend it.
Why not start preparing now, and save a few of the newer players some headaches.
Now that some of the worst bugs are fixed, game balance seems to have panned out, and the alien game can work while now always flowing through DMS. Excellent.
I have one complaint though. If this is the final polished version of 3.0, why haven't +duck fades been fixed yet? (For those of you who may not know, the crouching fade's hitbox is messed up and you can only hit it's legs and feet while bullets above its midsection miss whether or not they're on target with the torso. This is a glaring defect in NS gameplay.) You can usually spot a +duck fade by looking for an abnormally fast crawling animation while it blinks, and generally a +duck fade will crouch unless it needs walk the remaining distance to a target.
Fades that played this way used to be fairly common while the hitbox bug was a hot topic, then it died down for a while, but I'm seeing more of them again now that the new version is released. At present I think it's the only thing wrong with the fade. And for those players who'll do anything to win it's becoming quite apparent that they don't consider this particular exploit a cheat. To be honest I wouldn't quite call it a cheat either, but it is in no way a fair way to play, and with that in mind 'cheat' the best one word description I can think of for that. The fade isn't meant to have an invulnerable torso, and I'm hoping that those players who read my thread will show some good sportsmanship and not use this information to gain an unfair advantage.
And for those players who do play this way, please stop. What will you do when this is finally fixed? You certainly won't be able to rely on a bug in the game to dodge bullets. Instead you'll have to use your head and pick your fights, rather than blink into a crowd and hope they're naive enough to shoot at center mass. You also won't be able to hid behind a resource tower and force marines to come within slashing range to defend it.
Why not start preparing now, and save a few of the newer players some headaches.
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin-Minstrel Knight+Mar 20 2005, 02:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Mar 20 2005, 02:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Try ducking/jump ducking when shooting at them. Something magical will happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True. But, I already mentioned in my original post that you can only hit them by shooting at their lower potion, neither of you are really adding anything constructive.
You don't improve the quality of the game by forcing players to shoot at only the legs of a quickly moving enemy (which is a rather small target to follow) when they should be able to hit them anywhere else... even the larger regions of their body.
If fades were meant to be difficult to hit but remain as quick and powerful as they are, they'd be the same size as a skulk.
Juts for kicks, lets imagine a skulk thats 4 times harder to kill. Scary? Frustrating?
That is probably the way some players feel when they realize they can't hit these fades fair and square. As they *should* be able to.
It's not perfectly legitimate. Perfectly means: "in a perfect or completely faultless way". Using a word incorrectly doesn't make your argument any stronger.
The effect is the result of a long running bug (otherwise known as a fault in the code), and exploting bugs in the game for the sake of an advantage is in not a legitimate way to play. Just because the bug makes things the way they are doesn't mean they're the way they should be, or were ever intended to be. The fact is something is broken and players are taking advantage of that.
<!--QuoteBegin-DuoGodOfDeath+ Mar 20 2005, 03:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DuoGodOfDeath @ Mar 20 2005, 03:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fades arent that powerful really once you have about 2-3 SG'ers who know how to aim. Even if its just shooting against a "skulk" with 300/150 hp/armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Natural-Selection is about teamwork. When the game reaches a point where one fade isn't enough to slow down 2-3 marines change your tactics. A mix of alien units could combat 2-3 shotgunning mariness if they use their heads. An exploit shouldn't be treated as an alternative to teamwork.
I do feel that way and your mocking suggestion is the only unrealistic thing about this discussion.
Rather than find a passive solution to the problem, I'm choosing to speak out about it as politely as I can. And that's real enough for me. I think it would be a display of good sportsmanship on the part of any player who chooses not to use the exploit even if they are aware of it.
I'm not here to tell players what they can or cannot do. But I don't think theres anything wrong with saying what I think they should do as long as I say why, and refrain from passing judgement on anyone in particular.
As for quitting NS, never. I like the game just fine, and I'm not going to let a few players with bad ideas ruin it for me. I'd rather do what I can to make it better for everyone.
It really should be fixed-drop the whole other hitbox thing (the one that got messed up) these are good enough, just fix the fade.
By that logic, we shouldn't bother complaining about anything in the forums.
Not exactly productive to advancing the game, now is it?
Can you point me to where i said not too duck as a fade?
No?
Thought so.
I remember Flayra saying that the game should be played the way it is, not the way you want it to be played. Bunnyhopping is also the exploitation of a bug, but he chose to leave that in for the aliens.
By that logic, we shouldn't bother complaining about anything in the forums.
Not exactly productive to advancing the game, now is it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I must agree wholeheartedly that complaining on the forums about something that is already a known issue and is being fixed is not productive to advancing the quality of the game at all. I figure that complaining about things such as the overall balance of the game and various chamber/upgrade/lifeform strategies would be much more useful to the development team.
I don't recall ever talking to you waterboy.
Sorry to say, but you're beating a dead horse.
What you said previously doesn't have any more relevence to this discussion than it did the first time you said it. This new example is even more ridiculous than your first, although the concept is similar. This is not a structure blocking discussion (most structure blocking problems have been addressed by now). This is not a bunnyhopping discussion. This is not a scripts discussion.
Whether it is laughable or not for me to ask the playing NS community to listen to consider what I have to say and decide for themselves what they're going to do isn't for you to decide. To be direct I think you're completely wrong on that part; I think that it's the best way to approach the situation. It's the least likely to inflame anyone's ego as I'm not telling them what they absolutely can or can't do. I'm leaving it entirely up to them.
And considering that this has been the least carefully thought out and most divergent argument you've made, it's safe to say that you're the only person complaining 'impotently' about any of this at the moment. You're not really making any particular point, you're revisiting failed attempts to mock me, and you're also trying to drag in entirely unrelated aspects of the game that are sure to drag this discussion down into a flame war. Lets keep it focused please.
The relationship between structure blocking and ducking fades is quite simple. Both are taking advantage of the game mechanics in a way that the developers did not intend. Both are considered unfair and exploitative by some. Both have/will be adjusted by the devs.
The reason this post should be locked is that it is no different than a pro/anti scripting/blocking/hopping thread. Calling upon other players to abandon what you percieve to be their immoral playstyle has never worked in the past and only leads to such idiotic threads as this.
The development team is already well aware of this issue and is in the process of fixing it. Nothing you can say will make people stop ducking as fades until it is fixed, just as nothing you can say will make people stop scripting. Thus, this thread is meaningless and should be locked, for nothing can come of it but hatred and bad feelings.
I didn't start this thread for the developers. I started it for the players.
<!--QuoteBegin-Minstrel Knight+Mar 20 2005, 04:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Minstrel Knight @ Mar 20 2005, 04:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Simply because you are incapable of grasping the nuances of my arguement does make them incorrect or irrelevant.
The relationship between structure blocking and ducking fades is quite simple. Both are taking advantage of the game mechanics in a way that the developers did not intend. Both are considered unfair and exploitative by some. Both have/will be adjusted by the devs.
The reason this post should be locked is that it is no different than a pro/anti scripting/blocking/hopping thread. Calling upon other players to abandon what you percieve to be their immoral playstyle has never worked in the past and only leads to such idiotic threads as this.
The development team is already well aware of this issue and is in the process of fixing it. Nothing you can say will make people stop ducking as fades until it is fixed, just as nothing you can say will make people stop scripting. Thus, this thread is meaningless and should be locked, for nothing can come of it but hatred and bad feelings. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'll have to forgive my feeble intellect, but I don't see how you can make an analogy with structure blocking and the fade's hitbox bug. The addition of a build radius to each marine structure has pretty much made structure blocking extremely difficult. And although structure placement, and players being able to duck are both game mechanics. The problem isn't part of the game mechanics. The flaw is present in the hitboxes.
If you think what I'm doing is so idiotic, why do you continue to participate? Or is calling this topic idiotic and calling for it to be locked your last resort after I've torn apart all of your other arguments?
Whether the development team is aware of this or not isn't relevant, I made this thread for players not for developers. My purpose was to explain my position and hope I could reach a few people. If I did I've done enough. If I didn't at least I did something.
In the meantime if you don't have anything to add that isn't negative, just let the thread fail on its own if you're convinced that my attempt is so futile. And for the last time stop trying to drag other things like scripting, and bunnyhopping into this. I don't intended for this to degenerate into another scripting or bunnyhopping flamewar and I'd rather not let it happen.
I remember Flayra saying that the game should be played the way it is, not the way you want it to be played. Bunnyhopping is also the exploitation of a bug, but he chose to leave that in for the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I remember the 1.0x fade blinking, but its a far cry from what it is now. The topic is not about the blinking. It's about players exploiting a hitbox bug so that they're much more difficult to hit.
While the bunnyhopping example is interesting and I agree with what Flayra said, I doubt we could really relate these particular two things. Bunnyhopping only made you move a bit faster, if you jumped around the right way with the right timing. Whether the acceleration bug is fixed or not the skulk can still jump around all it wants. But what makes it especially difficult to relate is, hits can register normally on a bunnyhopping skulk. While a fade can just press one button and make bullets aimed at its top portion go right through it. Basically what I'm saying is these bugs are at a different level of severity.
Remember the exploit where you could place as many RTs as you wanted on the miasma node on ns_nothing? I suppose thats the way the game was at that point, but just because thats how you could play it did that make it fair? And whether you think bunnyhopping is fair or not, or RT exploits, or the +duck exploit, one doesn't have any bearing on the other.
Not that I don't agree that the ducking hitbox for the fade is stupid and borked, but rest assured, if you are getting raped by a +duck fade you would be getting raped even if they were not ducking, just maby slightly less so.
He is correct; look at the ducking fade in the readyroom.
The current hitboxes are already accurate, the model is not.
Furthermore if you extend the ducking hitboxes of the fade it may need an HP boost. Hitboxes are integreal to the balance of the game.
Also Minstreal Knight, you have a lot of patience, you should be proud. I'm really quite alarmed at how 90% of the people in this thread couldn't understand his logic.
If I used explodingheadboy's logic, I could make an argument like this:
"It's really unfair how marines who aim good can kill me as a skulk before I can even get off one bite. These few players with extraordinary aim really ruin it for the rest of us."
Thats a great idea, except that it would just look silly to see a completely stooped over fade.
"It's really unfair how marines who aim good can kill me as a skulk before I can even get off one bite. These few players with extraordinary aim really ruin it for the rest of us." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, I'm sorry. You're absolutely correct. The marines' ability to aim at a skulk is a glaring defect in the game and needs to be addressed immediately. But not in this thread.
Do you have any other insight to add, oh wisest one?
Not that I don't agree that the ducking hitbox for the fade is stupid and borked, but rest assured, if you are getting raped by a +duck fade you would be getting raped even if they were not ducking, just maby slightly less so. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, it's pretty easy. You just press the duck key with your pinky when you need to. (Assuming standard keymappings) It's not like that particular finger is all that busy with anything else.