When you go sensory first, your tech is slowed down. You have to spend more res on sensory chambers to make it effective, and you have to wait for a second hive to get a fade or onos. However, the point of getting sensory first is to slow down marine tech. By keeping them contained for a while, their res income is limited. They are forced to get upgrades in a different order than they would normally want to (multiple observatories, for example). You win with sensory first by slowing down marines more than slowing yourself down. (Or you become an unstoppable focus fade and hold the marines in base, but that's not going to happen outside of clan play.)
But however again you shouldn't be fading without the second hive, or untill its organised to go up. Keeping marines in base is quite profitable as they cannot take RTs and you can, alot easyer.
As for the no healing, a gorge is a good thing to have in the field again you need an orginized team.
@theclam; I say again that you should not be making it painfully odvious or thats precisly what the marines will do.
<!--QuoteBegin-im lost+Feb 28 2005, 02:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (im lost @ Feb 28 2005, 02:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When you go sensory first, your tech is slowed down. You have to spend more res on sensory chambers to make it effective, and you have to wait for a second hive to get a fade or onos. However, the point of getting sensory first is to slow down marine tech. By keeping them contained for a while, their res income is limited. They are forced to get upgrades in a different order than they would normally want to (multiple observatories, for example). You win with sensory first by slowing down marines more than slowing yourself down. (Or you become an unstoppable focus fade and hold the marines in base, but that's not going to happen outside of clan play.) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You've got a point there... this is why alot of sens first strategies involves some sort of RT rush (getting more than the standard 2 rts at the start).
<!--QuoteBegin-miniman+Mar 1 2005, 04:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (miniman @ Mar 1 2005, 04:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But however again you shouldn't be fading without the second hive, or untill its organised to go up. Keeping marines in base is quite profitable as they cannot take RTs and you can, alot easyer.
As for the no healing, a gorge is a good thing to have in the field again you need an orginized team.
@theclam; I say again that you should not be making it painfully odvious or thats precisly what the marines will do. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> shouldn't be fading without a second hive? the earliest second hives come up is up what...9 minutes? by then, if you are just holding the marines with skulks, the marines suck.
by that time, there will be at least armor 1, quite likely armor 2. with welders/shotguns/or even hmgs, skulks will not last (assuming teams have equal skill). you need a fade up by 4:30-5:00 regardless. even with a team of first timers where you have to become a one-hiver chamber-less hive, if you want to successfully hold back marines of average skill you would need a fade pretty quick.
I have seen hives up around the 6 minute mark, if all but 2 of your players temp, the marines lose very badly. A second hive is more devestating then any fade when you can leap get a new chamber umbra and bile bomb, no fade can equal a whole teams damage. sure he can rack up as much kills but the gores ease and speed of destroying minibases with lerk umbra cover is only matched by an onos..
With sens you should also be parasiting marines and watching their progress, take the nodes furthest away then take the ones they just built. If you have 50 res put up the hive.. If one is not in production already.
I admit sens is not plausable in games of 10v10 or higher.. When your playing 6v6 7v7 or 8v8 sens can be brilliant when done right.
<!--QuoteBegin-miniman+Mar 2 2005, 12:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (miniman @ Mar 2 2005, 12:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have seen hives up around the 6 minute mark, if all but 2 of your players temp, the marines lose very badly. A second hive is more devestating then any fade when you can leap get a new chamber umbra and bile bomb, no fade can equal a whole teams damage. sure he can rack up as much kills but the gores ease and speed of destroying minibases with lerk umbra cover is only matched by an onos.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not to mention stomp, more armor, a higher spawn rate and better map coverage.
A fade's main purpose is to prevent the marines from taking your second hive. That's the biggest reason why you want a good, early fade and DCs to support the fade. Skulks can harass the marines sufficiently well enough, if your hive goes up soon enough. Skulks can take down RTs just as well as fades can.
If you're confident that you can get your 2nd hive up early and keep it up, then SCs are fine. If you really need that fade, then DCs are probably better.
wohooo..is this it?have the dev team managed to make a gap between chambers so people fight whats best.Well it all comes down to whats your style and every player realy does have a style of playing.I always liked to sneak so if someone plants SC first(only 3 or 4 times in beta 5 i have seen this <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) i praise him.
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 7 2005, 12:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 7 2005, 12:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ok... but when your an alien.... do you instantly cloak.... then walk slowly around the entire map? do you crawl out of your base at .5 miles an hour and 30 minutes later make it from your hive to MS?
Motion tracking still helps outragously with aliens even if they are cloaked <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> no, but the alien bhops to the chokepoint where they have placed the sentry chamber then kills the marine that lost sight of him before he turned the corner.
Although SC is my least favorite chamber, it is not for the reasons noted in the original post. I honestly dont know what you were trying to say about SOF. SOF has nothing to do with MT.
SC provides the least benifit in protecting the second hive while it is being built.
Not being able to defend the newborn hive is however one of the sensories greatest downfalls, but the SoF and in the beta 6 LoS provided by the sensory will help you get to the hive and be ready for an attack before they get there. One of the many buffs the SC will recieve. As many people and I have said if you arn't putting up a chain of sensories then you WILL lose. Although MT is quite fooling to a newbieish marine whom to it is a life-line.
I agree that while sensories do not assit the higher lifeforms as much as dc and mc but they give the aliens a good buff early game if used properly.
First hive = dc this is good for your first higher life forms. Eg Fade with sc and mc is useless unless you have a second hive.
With a second hive you get metabolize and you can heal on the go. The second hive you get mc then when the marines try to siege your hive you can move from one hive to the other to defend. Also adds some other good abilities for higher life forms like cerenity for onos. If you do not go with mc on the second hive you may lose the game.
And sc is cool for the 3rd hive. The only usefull part of this is the ability to get focus to finish off the marines. Scent of fear may help a life form like a gorge or lerk.
I only wish that movement chambers would let you choose the hive that you end up at.
Also remember that at the end of the day if the aliens work together to get 3 hives and lots of resources for higher life forms, the marines are toast. If the aliens do not work together then these chambers do not matter.
Guys can I say that if you only contributing <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->yeah sensory sucks<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> please tell us why it sucks in your opinion and/or read the entire thread.
sandwitchead, yes DC benifits the highewr lifeforms but sensory does more to help the lower lifeforms it also helps scouting and slows ninja phasegates. I have said this so many times before but I will say it again, you shouldn't be going fade or onos without a second hive at least 1/4 built even then you can survive about 2:15 without DC. IMO sensories are goog 1st hive because they benifiet lower lifeforms, which you do have more of and get earlier on...
<!--QuoteBegin-Norseman+Feb 28 2005, 07:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Norseman @ Feb 28 2005, 07:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you set up enough sensory chambers, you can go pretty much anywhere you want and be invisible the whole time (unless you want to attack). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sometimes aliens set up too many sensory chambers. Those chambers cost 10 res each and 3-4 sensory chambers in totally unimportant places is very costly to the team. Instead of them you could have build hive/rts/ocs/lerk/fade.
So dont just spam scs, place them on important choke points.
I don't know about the rest of you, but IMO sense first is acctually scary as a marine in 3.0F. Good skulks have no problem holding any location on the map, and wrack up insane RFK increadibly quickly without giving the marines almost any res. Not to mention that with innate regen, it is now possible to go SMD and not have your fades and onos instantly wasted. Plus the sensory SOF blips make ninjaing a MAJOR pain for marines, even scouting becomes difficult.
yeah now sensories can SOF marines. Stick em in the hives and voila no more need for scouting around as skulks SC do all the work <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> goodbye rambos <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
SC is not the best. MC is not the best. DC is not the best. They're all used for different purposes and demand different tactics. The impression I get is that the "SC sucks!" crowd are expecting to be able to play exactly the same as with other chambers and get the same results. You can't. Deal with it. You don't expect to play marine the same way you play alien; why do you expect to be able to play SC the same as DC?
SC makes it difficult to take territory held by the marines. However, it makes it very VERY easy to track the movements of the marines, and helps you to stop them gaining ground in the first place. With the new changes, SC's SoF radius is at least as important as the cloak effect, as you can see where the marines are going. Once you know where they're going you can pound them with focus skulks before they get there.
The catch is that you have to be on the ball from the start of the game. If you've let them lock down double res and two hives then you've failed, but the hardware at your disposal is specifically geared to make tracking and interception easy. It's all about early warning and swift, aggressive response. You're not meant to be able to destroy bases; you're given the tools to make that unnecessary.
Sensory is fun. You can get alot of kills pretty early. Then you can have an early hive and have movements too. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But you can't let them lockdown if you chose sensory.
the new sensory is amazing. A good cloaking team can seriously make it hell for rines to secure any position or even get out of ms to secure more than one res node. Not only that, cloaked sukulks can easily slip behind enemy lines that were otherwise split by electrified outposts or a locked down hive. Then they set up an entire cloaked base.
yes ever since the changes for sc, i've been playing games with sc first a sick amount of times compared to before 3.0.
instead of pubs taking advantage of the new changes to sc, i wish they would take advantage of the fact that upgrades are now free. this would mean three chambers would be dropped asap no matter which is chosen, instead of the usual "wait 4 minutes before dropping the three dcs for the fade". i still haven't seen a public server take full advantage of the free upgrades, and it would be nice to experience a whole team of skulks with cara, silence/celerity, or cloak/focus. that would be pretty scary.
<!--QuoteBegin-mavericknm+Mar 8 2005, 07:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mavericknm @ Mar 8 2005, 07:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> yeah redemp skulk is pretty funny but gets annoying fast becuse you dont always get enough time to get a bite before returning to hive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, cara is better because it will give you another 40-60hp.
Sometimes 40-60hp doesn't matter (because I suck). I'd rather avoid giving RFK and harass the Marines constantly.
Have everyone on your team get Redemption and you see how that turns out. Before the Fades show up a decent Marine team on a goodly-sized server should have anywhere from 30-50 kills (but less if you're dominating, but that's where it isn't an issue.) 30 skulks is Armor1, Weapons1, and Weapons2. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
As for the no healing, a gorge is a good thing to have in the field again you need an orginized team.
@theclam; I say again that you should not be making it painfully odvious or thats precisly what the marines will do.
You've got a point there... this is why alot of sens first strategies involves some sort of RT rush (getting more than the standard 2 rts at the start).
As for the no healing, a gorge is a good thing to have in the field again you need an orginized team.
@theclam; I say again that you should not be making it painfully odvious or thats precisly what the marines will do. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
shouldn't be fading without a second hive? the earliest second hives come up is up what...9 minutes? by then, if you are just holding the marines with skulks, the marines suck.
by that time, there will be at least armor 1, quite likely armor 2. with welders/shotguns/or even hmgs, skulks will not last (assuming teams have equal skill). you need a fade up by 4:30-5:00 regardless. even with a team of first timers where you have to become a one-hiver chamber-less hive, if you want to successfully hold back marines of average skill you would need a fade pretty quick.
With sens you should also be parasiting marines and watching their progress, take the nodes furthest away then take the ones they just built. If you have 50 res put up the hive.. If one is not in production already.
I admit sens is not plausable in games of 10v10 or higher.. When your playing 6v6 7v7 or 8v8 sens can be brilliant when done right.
Not to mention stomp, more armor, a higher spawn rate and better map coverage.
A fade's main purpose is to prevent the marines from taking your second hive. That's the biggest reason why you want a good, early fade and DCs to support the fade. Skulks can harass the marines sufficiently well enough, if your hive goes up soon enough. Skulks can take down RTs just as well as fades can.
If you're confident that you can get your 2nd hive up early and keep it up, then SCs are fine. If you really need that fade, then DCs are probably better.
aliens can easily hive up early as well as have a fade out at the 5 minute mark as well.
Motion tracking still helps outragously with aliens even if they are cloaked <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, but the alien bhops to the chokepoint where they have placed the sentry chamber then kills the marine that lost sight of him before he turned the corner.
Although SC is my least favorite chamber, it is not for the reasons noted in the original post. I honestly dont know what you were trying to say about SOF. SOF has nothing to do with MT.
SC provides the least benifit in protecting the second hive while it is being built.
I agree that while sensories do not assit the higher lifeforms as much as dc and mc but they give the aliens a good buff early game if used properly.
Thats why exi uses it, but dont let them fool you. It still sucks.
With a second hive you get metabolize and you can heal on the go. The second hive you get mc then when the marines try to siege your hive you can move from one hive to the other to defend. Also adds some other good abilities for higher life forms like cerenity for onos. If you do not go with mc on the second hive you may lose the game.
And sc is cool for the 3rd hive. The only usefull part of this is the ability to get focus to finish off the marines. Scent of fear may help a life form like a gorge or lerk.
I only wish that movement chambers would let you choose the hive that you end up at.
Also remember that at the end of the day if the aliens work together to get 3 hives and lots of resources for higher life forms, the marines are toast. If the aliens do not work together then these chambers do not matter.
please tell us why it sucks in your opinion and/or read the entire thread.
sandwitchead, yes DC benifits the highewr lifeforms but sensory does more to help the lower lifeforms it also helps scouting and slows ninja phasegates. I have said this so many times before but I will say it again, you shouldn't be going fade or onos without a second hive at least 1/4 built even then you can survive about 2:15 without DC. IMO sensories are goog 1st hive because they benifiet lower lifeforms, which you do have more of and get earlier on...
Sometimes aliens set up too many sensory chambers. Those chambers cost 10 res each and 3-4 sensory chambers in totally unimportant places is very costly to the team. Instead of them you could have build hive/rts/ocs/lerk/fade.
So dont just spam scs, place them on important choke points.
SC is not the best. MC is not the best. DC is not the best. They're all used for different purposes and demand different tactics. The impression I get is that the "SC sucks!" crowd are expecting to be able to play exactly the same as with other chambers and get the same results. You can't. Deal with it. You don't expect to play marine the same way you play alien; why do you expect to be able to play SC the same as DC?
SC makes it difficult to take territory held by the marines. However, it makes it very VERY easy to track the movements of the marines, and helps you to stop them gaining ground in the first place. With the new changes, SC's SoF radius is at least as important as the cloak effect, as you can see where the marines are going. Once you know where they're going you can pound them with focus skulks before they get there.
The catch is that you have to be on the ball from the start of the game. If you've let them lock down double res and two hives then you've failed, but the hardware at your disposal is specifically geared to make tracking and interception easy. It's all about early warning and swift, aggressive response. You're not meant to be able to destroy bases; you're given the tools to make that unnecessary.
But you can't let them lockdown if you chose sensory.
instead of pubs taking advantage of the new changes to sc, i wish they would take advantage of the fact that upgrades are now free. this would mean three chambers would be dropped asap no matter which is chosen, instead of the usual "wait 4 minutes before dropping the three dcs for the fade". i still haven't seen a public server take full advantage of the free upgrades, and it would be nice to experience a whole team of skulks with cara, silence/celerity, or cloak/focus. that would be pretty scary.
Yeah, cara is better because it will give you another 40-60hp.
Have everyone on your team get Redemption and you see how that turns out. Before the Fades show up a decent Marine team on a goodly-sized server should have anywhere from 30-50 kills (but less if you're dominating, but that's where it isn't an issue.) 30 skulks is Armor1, Weapons1, and Weapons2. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->