Never Get Sens Chamber First
AvengerX
Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27459Banned
Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27459Banned
<div class="IPBDescription">I mean it, never do it</div> here is the one and only time you should get sens first .... when you want to make the game harder for yourself and want to struggle for victory if not lose. thats the only time you should get a sens
here is why sens is the worse chamber to get
1) all the abillities are easy to counter for marines
a- Cloack is easily countered with Motion Tracking
b- Focus is easily countered with Armor 1 upgrade
c- sof only levels the playing field out if they have MT so it doesn't help all that much
getting MC is much better
A- Celerity is not counterable execpt by getting better shooting marines, it matches the aliens skill VS the marines skill, not the marines tech VS the aliens tech. thus, all the good plays should get Celerity to out match their openents in skill
B- Silence is not counterable , unlike Cloack silince enables aliens to fool the most importent marine of all. the commander, I've led dozens of skulk rushes where we sneak into an empty marine start early game and silently chomp the CC before the com even notices
C- Adren also has no easy counter, the fact that you can have more attacks is simply a great advantage. great for BB gorges and Sporing Lerks
2) the order of hive chambers is terrible with sens first
a- you will need to get DC at least first or second hive, by the time you have a 2cd hive , marines start getting HMGs , its impossible for Aliens to function without fade's and other upper level life forms using a DC upgrade. but if you get sensory first then DC , you will have to run between hives in case either one is attacked, those seconds that you have to run from hive to hive can be the diffrence in stopping a siego or phase gate rush.
b- if you get in a double hive lock down, sensory is near-impossible to use to break a base to free a hive.
getting MC is much better
A- if you get MCs first you will enable your skulks to kill more marines, the R4k gained by this can be used for a skilled skulk to get a quick second hive and BAM you get DCs , because you got MCs first it is easy to go from one hive to another, making it easier to secure RTs and hive locations.
B- a double hive lockdown is hard to get out of with MCs as well. but I find that Celerity Fades are better off then any Sens upgrade
I hope I've been able to convince you that Sensory is a horrible first hive chamber and should never be recieved first.. thank you
MC is the best hive chamber, if you have a skilled team , g MDS for the win every time
here is why sens is the worse chamber to get
1) all the abillities are easy to counter for marines
a- Cloack is easily countered with Motion Tracking
b- Focus is easily countered with Armor 1 upgrade
c- sof only levels the playing field out if they have MT so it doesn't help all that much
getting MC is much better
A- Celerity is not counterable execpt by getting better shooting marines, it matches the aliens skill VS the marines skill, not the marines tech VS the aliens tech. thus, all the good plays should get Celerity to out match their openents in skill
B- Silence is not counterable , unlike Cloack silince enables aliens to fool the most importent marine of all. the commander, I've led dozens of skulk rushes where we sneak into an empty marine start early game and silently chomp the CC before the com even notices
C- Adren also has no easy counter, the fact that you can have more attacks is simply a great advantage. great for BB gorges and Sporing Lerks
2) the order of hive chambers is terrible with sens first
a- you will need to get DC at least first or second hive, by the time you have a 2cd hive , marines start getting HMGs , its impossible for Aliens to function without fade's and other upper level life forms using a DC upgrade. but if you get sensory first then DC , you will have to run between hives in case either one is attacked, those seconds that you have to run from hive to hive can be the diffrence in stopping a siego or phase gate rush.
b- if you get in a double hive lock down, sensory is near-impossible to use to break a base to free a hive.
getting MC is much better
A- if you get MCs first you will enable your skulks to kill more marines, the R4k gained by this can be used for a skilled skulk to get a quick second hive and BAM you get DCs , because you got MCs first it is easy to go from one hive to another, making it easier to secure RTs and hive locations.
B- a double hive lockdown is hard to get out of with MCs as well. but I find that Celerity Fades are better off then any Sens upgrade
I hope I've been able to convince you that Sensory is a horrible first hive chamber and should never be recieved first.. thank you
MC is the best hive chamber, if you have a skilled team , g MDS for the win every time
Comments
Since cloaked aliens DON'T show up on motion tracking, that is completely wrong.
Motion tracking still helps outragously with aliens even if they are cloaked
And since that is impossible... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Marines gets to deal with skulks they in no way can get the first shot on (regardless of skill) and fades that can one-hit kill you with lerk support, as well as being totally unable to move anywhere unnoticed.
Aliens gets to deal with two locked down hives and a boring tech-up phase before the marines walk in and siege you, with no real ability to break a lock-down of any kind (not to mention trying to take care of HMGs without help from hit registration issues - celerity, or higher capacity to take hits without having to return to hive - carapace or regeneration).
Overall, it's boring and frustrating and I wish they'd remove the cloaking ability entierly from the game.
[Edit] Basically, SCs makes both alien and marines haveing to play a one-shot game. If marines are able to push INTO THE SECOND HIVE LOCATION (or prevent it for ~1-2 min) and get an obs up, aliens CANT WIN period. If aliens are able to stop the marines BEFORE they get to a position where they can siege/lock down the second hive, they CAN win.
Great at game start, cos you have the whole sens network thing, you have SOF for any scout lerk, you have focus for people who can time their bites.
A good team should make enough focus kills in order to drop a hive very quickly. If they dont....
Marines rush obs. MT makes things a little easier. Or they rush weapon ups, bait the aliens and dice them. Or armour ups and lots of medspam.
If/when aliens get second hive, they're put in a quandary. DC, which will counteract some of the weapon ups, but leave them with a crippled reaction time to hive rushes, or they go with MC, which means relying on stealth (negated by mr obs and his friend armour1), having a good hive attack reaction, but withering under marine heavy support.
So SC really requires an exceptionally aggressive AND successful alien team....... something thin on the ground in pubs, and in the clan environment I would wager that no one team would be willing to really gamble a league match on the possibility that they might seriously outclass their opponent.
All things being equal, SC first is viable as it stands. If you're a better team than them, sure, but if you're on even skill levels... no chance..
a- Cloack is easily countered with Motion Tracking
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ok first, if people get SC it's in the way beginning of them game. if aliens place SC their either, planning on a short game or planning on placing a hive quickly. second, MAJORITY of commanders get armor 1 or phasetech as first uprade. you can almost ensure yourself that marines won't get MT first so you can use it to your advantage for a couple minutes which could play a big part in ending a game or securing spots, even with MT, gorges place SCs outside of the hive and if you have enough SC you will annihilate them because you'll be cloaked in many places where MT dosen't really help.
got silence and cloak mixed up? MT counters silence, cloak counters MT. i think a whole thread was opened to clarify this before.
Second, SC means the marines HAVE to counter. If you go MC, you're not really forcing the marines to do anything. They just have to listen more, or keep a sharp eye out (depends on upgrade obviously).
If aliens go SC first, you WILL have to alter most marine strats in order to react. If your team cant shoot, or you cant medspam, then you WILL need to get armour 1 or MT in order to spot ambushes. You can also write off ninja phases because there's always some gorge who has SOF and is just waiting for a ninja attempt.
If aggression is followed up, then the second hive should be fairly quickly up and also signal the endgame.
Skill AND aggression, going SC first means you can pretty much rule out defensive strength unless you somehow manage to place cloaked OC zols.
DCs are for unorganized teams, MCs are for average teams, SCs are for organized teams. Easy as that. And of course, SCs are the most fun <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And you have no idea how frustrating it is to get killed by cloak as Marines...
Motion tracking still helps outragously with aliens even if they are cloaked <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
heh.. thats exo-flipping DACTLY what i do....
If only the rest of the team did it too... im sick of going 3:1 as a skulk with SC and watching my team bhop down hallways and DIE..... WOOT
To counter your argument....
1. MT does not counter SC
2. SC depends on an early 2nd hive (and imho sc fades without dc arent too effective, id rather have the hive, for the TEAMS sake) Since marines ahd to spend 35 res on early mt, they are behind in ups, and since ur aliens are sneaking up on them all over, they dont have as many nodes and/or arent all over the map like usual
3. Focus still helps with A1, if u like parasite or spore them a bit (oh my friggin god lets use some teamwork)
4. Hello.... classic sneak the hive up.. drop the hive, and spit the turrets till they shoot u while the hive cloaks... HIVE UP
I cant tell you how many comms dont scan if the turrets are in plain sight of the hive, its a big risk, but... worth it if it gets up, and all of the sudden you mc rush it (thats right, DC last ****)
My personal favorite is SC first....
I saw somewhere the irony of a game called NATURAL SELECTION is the players unwillingness to Adapt...
Me personally i can go any chamber first and do good...... others are unwilling/unable to adapt... those people deserve to lose
~Jason
I saw somewhere the irony of a game called NATURAL SELECTION is the players unwillingness to Adapt... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The really ironic thing regarding this whole matter is that people HAVE adapted. They have adapted by never choosing SC first because it's a bad choice.
GG.
end of post.
GG. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they adapted, why are the Aliens losing so badly with defense chambers all the time? I thought defense chambers "Secured" victory all the time?
Until you DMS people get a higher win% in CAL and PUB games(Which I've not seen happen), I support alternative strategies. They're fun, exciting, and **** off the opponents!
Sensory is great if you and your team know what you're doing. Playing with a bunch of idiots or newbies will get you nowhere (atleast if the newbies are unwilling to learn.) The regulars on most servers will know how to play with Sensory, and a little microphone communication goes a long way in getting you the victory.
Sensory will of course become a much more viable tactic, however, in b6.. due to it's SoF bonus, the cloaking changes, and the free upgrades. No more wasting 2 res on an upgrade only to get popped before you even reach the Marines.
i think "those lamers who put light gramma to maximum looking for cloaks" is the biggest reason to stop u dropping sc, isnt it meaningless to cloak and to be uncloaked everytime?
mc is nice, instead.
they dropped three scs right from the start and we focused their **** and we even got a focus fade up + scs in important places soon after. we proceeded with SMD and won, basically.
u only need players who know how to play with sc being first and tell them at the beginning of the round that ur planning to drop sc rather than dropping an sc in the hive when u feel like it 4 minutes into the game when everyone else is expecting a dc.
GG. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they adapted, why are the Aliens losing so badly with defense chambers all the time? I thought defense chambers "Secured" victory all the time?
Until you DMS people get a higher win% in CAL and PUB games(Which I've not seen happen), I support alternative strategies. They're fun, exciting, and **** off the opponents! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because aliens lose even more often when they do SCs?!
MIGHT be why.
MIGHT be why. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't judge that unless an even number of games with Sensory first is compared with an even number of Defense first.
As well, in most pubs Aliens lose more than Marines. In most pubs it's mandated that Defense is first. In most pubs these games lose, NOT win. Which is why imbalance is cried out by Aliens.
Provided Sensory is hundreds of thousands of games LESS than Defense because people don't want to think when playing a game. It's so hard to do accurate comparing when one has had nowhere NEAR as much exposure as it should have.
In my opinion, all 3 chambers have the same loss% and win%. Defense is no better than Sensory or Movement, but neither are they better than Defense or each other.
So unless you play 900 games with 300 of each game having a different chamber for start, and do an accuracte graph with equally skilled people, the same people as well, then don't preach that Defense is better than any other chamber, be it SC or MC.
Because I highly doubt most children's 3 second attention span can handle doing a study as extensive as that. Not that I'm implying you're a child... or mabye I am. You'll have to decide for yourself with a mature outlook.
surely that's what the game balance should be based upon? not what happens in pub games, but rather the clan games?
Sensory is awesome if you know how to use it and it should only become more useful over time. We'll just have to wait for b6.
Sensory is awesome if you know how to use it and it should only become more useful over time. We'll just have to wait for b6. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll just ignore that first inflammatory comment about clan play.
SC first is not as good or stable a choice as DC or MC first. People have tried using sensory from time to time since the original release and even though it *can* work in 3.0 b5, the other chambers are still superior choices. From what have been gathered this far of course. I base my views on SC first on my experience at playing highly organised NS more than I should for longer than I should. What do you base your assumptions on?
Please tell me how you should use sensory, since you state that SC is a good choice if you know how to. Tell me and perhaps I'll find that I am mistaken... but first your explanation?
Why a bad choice?
Well basically it's a one shot strategy to get SC first.
It's a one shot chamber because when you've lost something you cant take it back. Fades got no MCs to get back to hive for healing quickly, and cele to quickly get back from the hive into action, and no regeneration to make them last longer on the field. If you shoot a SC fade a little, he needs to retreat to heal which takes a long time. This makes it extremely easy to take down a building second hive.
As Church said though, it's highly map dependant. On some maps such as hera I have no doubt it could work, but then again hera is an incredibly alien biased map.
I've also seen it work somewhat on origin, where the focus of the strategy is to rush as many rts as possible at the beginning of the game (both double rts + two more, ore/vent or ore/furnace) while one sets up a quick SC in double to cover those rts. All to get as big a res advantage as possible at the beginning to a second hive can be put up for DCs. This might work if the marines are surprised and take too long to find out what the aliens are up to, but if they do find out relatively quickly, a push into double with a well placed scan should see an end to the game.
On most maps though, such as veil, tanith, eclipse and lost, doing SC first is suicide.