How To Change Fades

Lawpark · January 2005

<div class="IPBDescription">... and still make the game fun!</div> I have been playing for a long time, at least 2 years, ever since 1.03

<b>Above all, I want to thank the NS <i>moderaters and developers </i>for their dedication and hard work. I also want to thank the community for being as awesome as it is.</b> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' />

As being a loyal follower of the series, I would like to (finally?) add my 2 cents as to how to tweak this wonderful game. Please note this is just my humble opinion, as a player. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

<u><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Aliens</u>:</span>

<b>skulks:</b>
small and fast killing machines, and that they are well. I was wondering what you would think about adding something to "slow down" a skulk once it was hit by a bullet. Simular to how CS movement slower (but not as extreme) when you are hit by a bullet. I offer this suggestion because if you think about it, skulks are small, like a big cat or a small dog, they could not take 5 bullets head on and keep running at you full speed.

<b>Gorges:</b> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' />
Cute, loveable little fellows finally got their spit acidy enough... I say well done!
<b>
Lerks:</b>
Perfect, they are fast, deadly, and require skill to use properly. Perhaps a slight armor increase to say 40.

<b>Fades:</b>
the powerhorse, do all, kill everything, destroy everyone, get in and get out monster. I know they have been tweaked and messed with so much, it seems difficult to really find the best balance, before they had too little health, now it seems they have too much! I think if you just make blink move fades a little slower and up the acid rocket damage (hey spit does more...). Also you may want to take gravity into consideration for blink, as it is more efficent to blink straight up than just in the direction you want. (will also evade more bullets)

<b>Onos:</b>
I think they are finally tweaked to be perfect. Good job.

<u><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Marines</u>:</span>

I consistently find that using a shotgun is way more powerful and useful against the hive in combat than a GL is, and I am not sure if this is how it was intended. Maybe the GL should have a 1.3x - 1.7x modifier against structures?

My only other gripe is the armor, I feel that armor 3 should protect against more than 2 focus hits personally, because there really is no significant justification for getting armor3 compared to armor2

ThisIsASheep · January 2005

I agree with you in everything but one point:
Armor 3 does not much for Vanilla/JP-Marines.
But for HAs it's pretty useful.

theclam · February 2005

Skulks: I believe bullet knockback was put in, but was deemed too powerful.

Fades: I think they are pretty well done. There is a little too much reliance on fades, but that is more because of the resource model (resources are precious, R4K makes deaths bad, fades have the highest K:D ratio, etc.). I don't see how slowing down blink and upping acid rocket will change much, besides nerfing aliens.

Onos: I actually disagree. They are more like the ultimate hit and run unit, instead of the in-combat tank, like they should be.

GLs: I believe that they do more DPS than a SG against structures.

Armor: Armor3 is useful for HAs and LAs with welders/medpacks.

SmoodCroozn · February 2005

Skulks are already hard to play when against good marines.

Lerks are a bit fragile, but then again they are like clams, the pop out a bit, and hide in their shells (vents).

Fades are alright, but people just seem to laugh at AR. It shoots faster, does splash, and is more used since the fade can take more damage and is faster than a gorge with spit.

Onos need to have their devour taken out. Stomp is a good idea, but devour annoys people, and other ideas could replace devour such as an attack where adrenaline absorbs damage. Heavies would be harder to take out so Bilebomb could be used here, since it's hard for gorges to fight battles.

AvengerX · February 2005

I think lerks were better back when they had spikes. it made them more of a forward scout and less of a support char. I mean I like current lerk. but I miss being able to take down entire turrut farm with my one lerk. (you find/make a blindspot from turret fire, then you proceed spike down the TF , and bam once thats done you can chomp down the remaining sentrys) see that was a good way to stop annoying marines that lock down 2 hives and you can't afford an onos or a fade to spare.

I think the lerk should go back to the forward solo scout , and be less of the support behind the scenes guy pumping gas on the outskirts of battle while the other creaters get all the action and fun

Router_Box · February 2005

IMO, reload time on the GL needs to be lowered.

davez0r · February 2005

I think the problem, is that the fade is a little harder to hit because of the blink tweaks that have been done. Maybe Blink might need to be reviewed again and rethought.

Gecko_God_Of_Dooom · February 2005

Skulks: Are fine, thou they are getting a very tiny boost in b6 so instead of 9 bullets, they take 10 i belive. but they still die to a lvl 1 shotgun.
Personaly Id like to see thier movement speed upped a tiny bit. about 20.

lerks: They are one of the best units right now. Devistating if you get them early in the game, by about 1:30 mark. They are the ultimate distraction and will usualy be the card that makes or breaks a seige spot. Basicly, they are the Power House of the early game for aliens.

As a lerk you should be supporting your skulks with spores, and occasinoaly, flying over the head of marines to distract them to let you skulks get the kills.

Fades: No change, they are the midgame power house, any tweak would mostly upset the balance. If you have a problem killing them. Dont drop SGs, drop HMGs, Hmgs are the true fade killers.

Onos: Give the onos 100 more HP, and remove 50 armor. This will make caraspace much better. Currently an onos will die with about 100 armor left over with cara. It will give them a boost for one hive, no boost for hive 2, and a nerf at hive 3. 50=100hp at hive 2.

Marines. Give em about 5 more armor. this will make it so armor1 is not a required first upgrade, (Parasight will null the effects. bringing them back down to 2 bites) and change catpacks to include a faster reload.

Alkaline · February 2005

HMGs? Fade Killers? What are you talking about. The fire spreads so much and blink is so fast that often not a single bullet will hit, trust me, I've done it, I look at the wall they were blinking against.. see no blood, that means no hits. And I'm not the greatest shot, but I'm at least above average. I know this doesn't happen often, but seeing as how there is NO weapon in the Marine arsenal able to take down a fade semi-easily, that's a problem.

Blink needs to be tweaked, and metabolize added to or replaced by a more feasible skill.

The whole idea is to make the aliens use their entire arsenal of attacks. Parasite is one that isn't used alot but is a very powerful skill all in itself. Most fades don't use 2 of their attacks, so they cut their arsenal by 50%. Which is NOT the idea behind the aliens.

My suggestions:
Slash: Nothing really. If you WANT to change it, make the attack half the damage but with two swipes per use that way the fact of two claws is seen.
Blink: X axis transport only. No more flying, they can hover (if they were already on a platform or mid-jump), but not fly. Also, no switching abilities mid-blink.
Metabolize: Taken out, replaced with something like Paralyze (from old Onos) to make them more of an Anti-Air support unit (Gorges don't count as they are builders).
Acid Rocket: Not really sure, you could make the damage over time, or slow down opponents on hit. Make the damage higher and 2x or 3x higher on structures. Maybe make turrets inactive for X amount of seconds?

If nothing else, I'd like to see Blink reworked.

Edit: Removed all non-fade talk.

Gecko_God_Of_Dooom · February 2005

HMGs are anti fade, do not blame the hmg because you can't hit the fade with it. ask any cal fade what they fear more. HMG or Shotgun. In the hands of some skilled a SG can kill a fade, but they cannot kill a running away fade, as effectivly a HMG.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The whole idea is to make the aliens use their entire arsenal of attacks.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I agree with that point, and any good player will use all the attacks, and abilties avalalbe to them. Esentual a good player will play the game its ment to be played. Blame the player base, not the game.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Most fades don't use 2 of their attacks, so they cut their arsenal by 50%. Which is NOT the idea behind the aliens.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Again, Dont blame the game because people can't reconize the power behind certain abilties. Metabilize is some I crave for when I fade, and acid rocket is kind blah, but Ill talk about that later

A pro alien player will always use all of thier abilties, and is always looking for a way to give them the advatange straticly. From a lerk distraction, to a fade blinking in, and out, to wast the ammo of marines. There are alot of great personal stratagies for aliens, and in NS but they are not obvious.

Blink: No change, fades can blink into jetpackers and swipe at them.
Metab: No change, its a very very very usefull skill.
Acidrocket: Was changed to doing double damage against armor, Which I agree with.

Lerk, gorge, onos, skulk.=No change

(note. Non of this is targeting you or anyone inparticular)

Alkaline · February 2005

Unfortunately, myself and alot of the NS community are NOT expert players or expert HMG users. I play for fun, and my fun is often ruined by a single fade. I have trouble with a running away fade going around a corner, or flying down the hallway at unfathomable speeds, and since the HMG has quite the large spread the farther they get the less you hit them.

All of my observations are based on my play, non-ladder, with some good and some bad players. On OC and NS maps alike.

Wouldn't regeneration nullify the effects of metabolize? And since metabolize isn't good in combat, it's usefulness is limited as I see it. You can go from end of the map to end of the map in probally at most 5-10 seconds flat, so blinking to a hive to heal and make it back to where you were isn't a huge loss of time.

I still think blink should be made horizontal movement only, and then give the Fade some sort of Anti-Air attack (such as paralyze).

I'm trying to limit them and at the same time make them useful in another area. This (anti-air) would keep them as good killers, and also make them good support for say an onos, or even a lerk. Or maybe to drop a jet packer into some OCs.

I'm trying to balance the Fade with attacks and support. Currently it has no support, whereas every other unit does, Onos is questionable, stomp can be seen as support and as attack.. take your pick. Skulk doesn't really count, parasite isn't an attack and might not be support, and leap isn't exactly an attack.. since it's almost impossible to use as such.

I don't think it's fair to give the Fade everything the other units lack.

I know marines need tweaking too so they aren't uber goober against everything else (like jetpackers since there currently is no anti-air skill besides web).

On a side-note:
You said lerks don't need changing, I have to disagree whole-heartedly. They are the only unit with only 1 real attack, that isn't even unique. It's almost like they had all these skills that are good, left over so they dumped them all into the lerk. It's attack is the same as the skulks, so it's single attack isn't even unique. Two gasses and a scream are it's other skills? I mean, even the gorge has two (sort of) attacks.

Lerks are also in need of some re-balancing as I see it. I'd like to at least see them get their own unique attack.

PAcifisti · February 2005

HMG:s are fadekillers... Even if you can't kill it, it makes it much harder for the fade to attack & run since it's a complete suicide to blink against 1-2 HMG marines from the front. they will tear the fade in few secs. Yes, you really need just 3-4 secs HMG fire and fade goes down. I remember from the last match I was playing... Fade was swiping down our PG, I phased in while already pressing fire and somehow managed to dodge fades attack(luck is a big factor in NS sometimes), the second it took for the fade to notice that it had missed and was in the perfect place to get hits was enough, the fade died while trying to blink away (Lev 1 or 2 HMG)

Fade is ok the way it is now, it's the killer of lone marines & small groups, perfect for killing marine RT-hunters & makers. With more hives, Fade can go againts larger groups and even HA:s (although when marines get HMG:s, you really can't survive without carapace)

Onos needs some tweaking, since it is too weak vs larger groups, although a good onos can do alot of damage, but it really can't survive if you get stuck or too close to a group of marines with HMG:s. Only way for onos to fight agains large groups with heavy weapons is to eat / kill those who got separated go solo... Onos is dead meat in 2-3 seconds vs 2-3 HMG:s, even with astomp sometimes cos it wouldn't be the first time for the stomp to bug and leave too many marines out of stun

A Good way to improve the onos vs group of marines combat would be to change the way onos takes damage, the more marines shooting, the less damage it would take <b>per</b> bullet. 1 marine shooting, it would take the normal 100% damage... with 2-3 marines shooting it, it would take only 70% damage from every bullet, like with LMG it would only take 7 damage instead of 10, and with HMG 14 damage per bullet instead of 20. And if even more marines are shooting it, the % could go even lower.

Here's an example how this could work ingame...
1 Marine is shooting onos with lev 0 LMG
50 bullets * 10 damage *100% = 500 damage...
2 Marines shooting
100 bullets * 10 damage * 70% = 700 total damage instead of normal 1000
(although I'm not sure if this can be done with the HL engine)

Church · February 2005

Akaline, meta and regen completely stack. If you don't use meta when you have it, then you probably haven't played NS for more than a week or two.

Pacifistic: You should just give Onos more armor or speed period instead of doing this stupid crap of damage reduction with more players. I don;t think that kind of system is possible to implement. If anything, Onos should take MORE damage as more marines shoot at it, to encourage teamwork. Of course that'd be coupled with the increase in armor I was talking about.

TOmekki · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alkaline @ Feb 2 2005, 12:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Unfortunately, myself and alot of the NS community are NOT expert players or expert HMG users. I play for fun, and my fun is often ruined by a single fade. I have trouble with a running away fade going around a corner, or flying down the hallway at unfathomable speeds, and since the HMG has quite the large spread the farther they get the less you hit them.

All of my observations are based on my play, non-ladder, with some good and some bad players. On OC and NS maps alike.
 </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
fortunately ns cannot and should not be balanced on the assumtion that fades cant blink, marines cant aim and skulks cant parasite (for instance). i dont think i need to explain this.

trust me the hmg will tear fades apart, as it will any other lifeform, too. perhaps you should consider changing crosshairs, theres bound to be some good ones in the customisation forums. the default hmg crosshair is simply enormous and hinders your aim more than helps it.

TOmekki · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PAcifisti @ Feb 2 2005, 03:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> A Good way to improve the onos vs group of marines combat would be to change the way onos takes damage, the more marines shooting, the less damage it would take <b>per</b> bullet. 1 marine shooting, it would take the normal 100% damage... with 2-3 marines shooting it, it would take only 70% damage from every bullet, like with LMG it would only take 7 damage instead of 10, and with HMG 14 damage per bullet instead of 20. And if even more marines are shooting it, the % could go even lower.

Here's an example how this could work ingame...
1 Marine is shooting onos with lev 0 LMG
50 bullets * 10 damage *100% = 500 damage...
2 Marines shooting
100 bullets * 10 damage * 70% = 700 total damage instead of normal 1000
(although I'm not sure if this can be done with the HL engine)  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
onos hp would have to be ridiculously low to balance it (imagine 5 marines shooting at it, hell that thing wont ever go down).

and then when that 1 jp hmg comes and unloads a few rounds into an onos thats sitting on top of 3 dc's under a hive, it'll die even faster than they do now.

Rapier7 · February 2005

I like the default HMG crosshair, I simply kill anything within it. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' />

Anbu · February 2005

countless times marines kill me as fade with HMGs. even a lone marine can easily kill you, with a far better chance of doing so than one armed with a SG. I remerber one time there was a lone marine crouching in a corner with HMG, i blinked at him, and he just unloaded into me. silly me to think i'd be able to land 3 hits before having my health and armor chipped away by him and that HMG.

TOmekki · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Feb 2 2005, 01:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I like the default HMG crosshair, I simply kill anything within it. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' />  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
have u tried alternatives...?

yeah, guessed so =O

Alkaline · February 2005

I know HMGs are super powerful and can.. usually.. take down any unit if the person firing the weapon isn't stupid.

However, there comes a difference when you're firing at an oncoming target, or fleeing target, to a plain moving target. If I could take 100 marines and place them in a room, along a wall or in the middle (you decide, it doesn't matter), and just let the fade run past with blink, while each marine taking a turn firing. My guess is that most of those marines (I'd wager about 80) would not be able to do signifigant damage to the fade. And even if they did, the fade is long gone with regeneration or back to a hive.

That's the problem I'm talking about. A unit, any unit, should not be able to do that. Even Jet Packs can't, although they are still unbalanced. The thing with most abilities is, there's some sort of counter to it. Jet packs = webbing, webbing = welders, welders = spores/any attack/xeno. It's a chain, the chain SHOULD go full circle on itself again. However, the blink chain consists of blink = jetpack/hmg, jetpack/hmg = blink, that's not a full circle, that's just stupid.

Don't tell me about expert players or how you yourself can take down fades easy, if it's so easy, share the secret, because I know ALOT of us would like to know.

Maybe the next time I see a godly fade in a server I'll demo it so I can share what I'm talking about.

P.S. This problem becomes 10x worse in smaller maps with alot of corners, you'd think an open area would make this easier, but it really doesn't.

theclam · February 2005

The thing about SGs Vs. HMGs against Fades is this:

The thing you fear most is a couple good shotgunners. They hit you once as you are coming in, you turn and run, and they hit you once on your way out. You can't do much against this, except avoid it. The instant burst of damage is really nice against a fade, because you only have to get one lucky hit in, and you've done a bunch of damage. One lucky hit for an HMG is about 50 damage.

The average HMGer is a lot better than the average SGer, just because HMGs have a very fast ROF, so some of the bullets are bound to hit. It's easier to fight back against HMGs as a fade, because if you get in and out after doing one hit, then they usually barely scratch you. You don't have an instant burst of damage from the HMG that you do from a SG, so by the time you have the Fade in your sights and you're firing, he's probably flying past you or retreating, and he'll be hard to hit. I can fly around the room south of furnace on ns_origin, while the marines are setting up sieges, and get barely scratched. If the marines had shotguns and they bunched together, I wouldn't be able to pick them off, because they would be able to take me down in one shot each. With an HMG, I can at least get a hit in before I have to retreat, and I usually can get 2 or 3 hits in.

I don't know about CAL, but this is how it works for me in public servers.

Ots · February 2005

I dont know if i should cry, or laugh.

Taaketa · February 2005

Personally I think its 2 SGs and an LMG will take a fade down provided the weapon level is the same of the amount of hives or above.

I've played on manys a pubs has comm (8v8 or 7v7 matches) and drop down 2-4 SGs and I bet you if those 2 Sgs land direct hits on the fade a good LMGer can finish a retreating fade. All the better with an HMG/Pistol Whip but I'm speaking before the 8-9 minute mark when (if your going for bog standard tactics) the advanced armoury will be ready.

TOmekki · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Feb 4 2005, 01:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The thing about SGs Vs. HMGs against Fades is this:

The thing you fear most is a couple good shotgunners. They hit you once as you are coming in, you turn and run, and they hit you once on your way out. You can't do much against this, except avoid it. The instant burst of damage is really nice against a fade, because you only have to get one lucky hit in, and you've done a bunch of damage. One lucky hit for an HMG is about 50 damage.

The average HMGer is a lot better than the average SGer, just because HMGs have a very fast ROF, so some of the bullets are bound to hit. It's easier to fight back against HMGs as a fade, because if you get in and out after doing one hit, then they usually barely scratch you. You don't have an instant burst of damage from the HMG that you do from a SG, so by the time you have the Fade in your sights and you're firing, he's probably flying past you or retreating, and he'll be hard to hit. I can fly around the room south of furnace on ns_origin, while the marines are setting up sieges, and get barely scratched. If the marines had shotguns and they bunched together, I wouldn't be able to pick them off, because they would be able to take me down in one shot each. With an HMG, I can at least get a hit in before I have to retreat, and I usually can get 2 or 3 hits in.

I don't know about CAL, but this is how it works for me in public servers.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
what .. are .. you .. talking about? is this based on experiences as a fade or as a marine? the thing here is that marines that can aim don't get "lucky" hits, they hit with nearly every bullet. both sg and hmg.

here's how it works:

2 shotgunners vs fade:
-fade blinks into room, shotgunners start shooting. they get maybe half a pellet load each or less into the fade when he comes. fade swipes once or twice and blinks out. if he's smart he has positioned so that the other marine cant shoot him without killing his mate. fade usually escapes this situation.

2 hmg's vs the same fade:
-when the fade has reached the marines it has already recieved around 10 or 15 hmg rounds from the marines, if they know he's coming. the fade swipes once, twice, and then starts blinking out. all this time there's 1 or 2 hmg's concentrating fire on him, and they will do damage to the fade during the whole process, not just in bursts. conclusion = dead fade.

those marines you played against were pretty bad aimers, though i agree that the furnace sieging point is very fade-friendly =o

Alkaline · February 2005

That's the problem..

A whole lot of maps are very fade friendly.

And.. I don't know what HMGs you play against, but even if it's me and another marine with an HMG, if the fade comes straight at us with blink, we get maybe 1-2 seconds to fire, which is maybe 30 rounds of the HMG? With everything taken into acount, maybe 5-10 rounds from each HMG hits, for averaging purposes we'll say 7 per HMG so 14 hits, so the fade lives.

Regen already has kicked in, and the fade has most likely either killed one of the marines or has escaped, and a running away fade is alot more hard to hit then one coming at you. So a fade, over maybe a 5 second interval takes only 20 HMG shots.

If the fade has regen, he's still alive, if the fade has carapace, he's still alive, if the fade had redemption, he's been gone for awhile.

Unless you're playing a map where the corridors are miles long, then the fade usually takes a whole .5 seconds to get to you with blink, that's about enough time to turn to the fade and start firing.. and missing.

I like the SG, but it's ROF is slow, and the fade fast, so it makes it a good, but extremely hard weapon to use.

Sewlek · February 2005

Skulks:

good idea with this! But, therefor you have to increase their armor greatfully. Like to 35 or something.
Why? Because i believe skulks fit more in the rule as small soldiers than as scouters.
At the moment skulks scout, ambush and kill. I really dislike this system and in many situations you have no chances as skulks in close battles. This is very paradox, because all alien lifeforms are designed for melee attacks and therefor should have advantages on close battles and disadvantages on ranged.

So, skulks that decided to escape should die, and the ones that decided to fight should have a reliable chance to beat in 1on1 battles a marine.

Fades:

The are fine as they are now. Maybe i dislike the fact, that you really need much skill to handle it. In the right hands, they are deadly, but sometimes they are just like paper.
lowering speed and adding this "bullet effect" like on the skulk but therefor increasing their armor would enhance gameplay and ruining the "hit and run" aspect which i really dislike on the fade.

Gorges:

They build, and they are doing fine therefor <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

Lerks:

Perfectly. Maybe reducing costs but this is discussable...

Onos:

Well, what i really hate on them is their sweet ability called "stomp".
it ruins the game balance, since aliens already have webs from the gorge.
an ability that increases the armor-effect but reduces the hitrate of gore would be much better. it hopefully would fit more to the role onoses play:

a tank! ok i know. How many time did you hear that " TEH oNOES IS TEH TANCK!! "
but it like this. Onoses are tanks and you should be able to play as onos like you play a tank in other games.
Their weak point would be energie then. Ones it runs out, onoses get weaker and marines can kill em. If the onos decides to run, marines can follow and maybe successful kill him. If he decides to stay, marines may have to reload and the onos has a chance to kill everyone.

My idea about the overall changes is: Change the "<b>hit & run type</b>" to a "<b>think tactically before attack type</b>"

Church · February 2005

I already proposed the idea for the Onos a few months ago I think. I coined the ability "Harden" and it would double armor effectiveness and durability while the ability is on (drains some adrenaline steadily like charges does) and halves the damage the Onos does. There is a cool-off period between turning it off/on. Myabe 3 seconds.

ikir · February 2005

I agree, make blink slower. With a skilled player Fades are too strong.

tjosan · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alkaline @ Feb 6 2005, 12:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> That's the problem..

A whole lot of maps are very fade friendly.

And.. I don't know what HMGs you play against, but even if it's me and another marine with an HMG, if the fade comes straight at us with blink, we get maybe 1-2 seconds to fire, which is maybe 30 rounds of the HMG? With everything taken into acount, maybe 5-10 rounds from each HMG hits, for averaging purposes we'll say 7 per HMG so 14 hits, so the fade lives.

Regen already has kicked in, and the fade has most likely either killed one of the marines or has escaped, and a running away fade is alot more hard to hit then one coming at you. So a fade, over maybe a 5 second interval takes only 20 HMG shots.

If the fade has regen, he's still alive, if the fade has carapace, he's still alive, if the fade had redemption, he's been gone for awhile.

Unless you're playing a map where the corridors are miles long, then the fade usually takes a whole .5 seconds to get to you with blink, that's about enough time to turn to the fade and start firing.. and missing.

I like the SG, but it's ROF is slow, and the fade fast, so it makes it a good, but extremely hard weapon to use.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Well, with the marines I play with and against, a fade might survive going into a room with 3 HMGers, but not if he is to do any damage. If he tries to go in for slashes vs 2 fully prepared HMGers with no additional distractions, that is one dead fade.

UEACobra · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn @ Feb 1 2005, 01:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Skulks are already hard to play when against good marines.

Lerks are a bit fragile, but then again they are like clams, the pop out a bit, and hide in their shells (vents).

Fades are alright, but people just seem to laugh at AR. It shoots faster, does splash, and is more used since the fade can take more damage and is faster than a gorge with spit.

Onos need to have their devour taken out. Stomp is a good idea, but devour annoys people, and other ideas could replace devour such as an attack where adrenaline absorbs damage. Heavies would be harder to take out so Bilebomb could be used here, since it's hard for gorges to fight battles.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
um, i think one of the main ideas behind devour was to temporarily take a marine out of play, along with restoring hp to the onos, if ppl dont like getting eaten, LIVE WITH IT

Sewlek · February 2005

devour was the best invention to the onos!

so pls dont argue against it. It rocks and anyone whos in the stomache of an onos should be happy about the nice artwork <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

Sounounouw · February 2005

What's up guys, my first post here. But I've played N-S I think since 1.04, not often, but I know I played long ago, when it was on WON.

I'd like to add my humble opinions here.

SKULKS
I believe the Skulk should be considered as the main force of attack for the Aliens. Right now they are used as scouts, mainly, and early/starting game rushes when possible. A good Skulk player can ambush even the most vigilant Marine. But once Marines get their Armor quality upgraded...it's another story. I myself once have tried to ambush an Armor level 3 Marine and (Non-HA) the guy crouched, probably by reflex, so I bite him two or three times before he kills me with the Knife. I found that fustrating. But, then again, I'm probably not very good as a Skulk. But that's my point. Good or not, I think players, as Skulks, should be able to kill Marines just a little, very little bit faster than they can actually, which I think means, technically, a bite damage change. That, or a Skulk health and / or armor upgrade. Probably something in the range of 75-25, instead of 70-10. Just enough to sustain a single more bullet would make me more happy.

FATTIES ! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /> !
Ahh, Gorgies, lovely little innocent things. All I can say about them would be something that's <i>never</i> going to happen and I know it, that's for sure. But I'm still going to mention it. Any Aliens players, gestating to a Gorge during the first two or three minutes of the game start, should get a level 1 Redemption by default. To <i>at least give a chance</i> for the little boys to get Redeemed back to a Hive for urgent heal after an early game attack against them. Everyone knows it...that loosing the single, the two or three Gorgies we usually get at a game start (when it does happen) just means bad things for the whole team. Usually Gorgies do have time to put their first RT's. But sometimes one out of the two or three dies before doing so, often as gesteting phase. But, on the other hand, there is a counter balanced to the risks of adventuring Gorgies in the map early on, is the skilled Skulk scouting around. It's either the Marine(s) getting eaten early before building the RT's, or the Gorgies getting suprised by Marine(s) before building his RT. So, yes there's balance there. There's also the fact that...usually...Skulks do NOT (and that's quite sad) guard / escort early Gorgies. I'm not saying "Hey Skulks do that everytime for all of them". No, I'm just saying do it for at least one, and the one you see at the very start of a game. That may save his life in exchange of yours, which in the early game, means nothing huge. Goriges are the key to make the Aliens win. If Gorgies are doomed to scout and secure areas by themselves...it's sad. As far as their actual health / armor goes, I think it's alright.

LERKS
Almost perfectly balanced. That life form being my favorite, and best one where I'm the most skilled with. I'd ask for two changes, though. Only those, and, for me, then it would be perfect, I think. Make the duration of Umbra last just a little bit longer. Like...one or one and an half second. And / or upgrade the health / armor.

FADES
The main subject here. But I see quite nothing against them. I think it's pretty much as the Lerks. Almost perfectly tweaked over time. I just like using em' with level 3 Carapace, Silence and Scent Of Fear, making it (or at least myself) a deadly early game sneak-around Marine-ambusher. The Fade, though, if played by the hands of a...let's say not good player, will get killed even my mere regular Marines with LMG's level 3, if not careful enough. I never said it enough ! Guys, if the first Chambers are DC's (getting 3 of course the best), then just get Carapace it WILL save you if you're not a good Fade player. Just use the healing they already have and get back to action, no need for Regen early on.

ONOS
What to say about the Onos. Well...make them have a small OC on top of them so that Jet-Packers don't own them. Nah, seriously, I'm not sure. You see...I've see a lot of people complain about JP's "owning" Onoses. The thing is...it depends a LOT on the map designs. The movement areas, the possibilities...JP's and Onos rely on that for survival. Jet-Packers in an open, large area will always, of course, kill even the best Onos player with any combinations of Aliens upgrade. Unless of course Redemption saves the day. But my point is...see, I myself have actually owned two, yes, two full-equiped JP's, as a 2-Hives Onos (DC's and MC's, having Regen and Celerity), they were heading to Maintenance, in Ns_Eclispe, from their Marine Start. I mean, of course...a corridor, that's not, really not JP-friendly, especially a narrow one. Make a JP actually fly around, then his the killing machine. Make him just go forward / backward...all he can do when facing an Onos is going backward at the highest speed his little JP engines can let him to. Because the Onos in front of him will make him remember who's the hunted in that situation. So I say with Onos two things. Onos-friendly maps make them well enough balanced, not too powerful, good against JP's (but still JP's have chances against them still, which balances the things out), can flee without getting stuck if necessary, etc. Maps not designed for Onos usage simply means they doom, which in turn makes them useless and that means making use almost only of Fades, which means surely NOT everyone playing in such a sutuation will agree to do. Going Fade means a pure risk of death if you don't know how to play with them. And that means Marines win.

MARINES
Marines...not sure. They're cool. Balanced enough in my book so far. My only complain is the Siege Cannon. The problem, is either their range, or the damage. OR even...the speed at which it can be built. OR...perhaps, the resources it costs. In fact, there's two related issues here. The time needed for Marines to establish a lethal Sieging camp, which is ridiculously short, giving Aliens little to no time to counter-act if the Marines are guarding it with the minimum efforts and numbers. Or, the time it takes to kill Hives...which means the damage. I don't really mind the multiple killing with one shot (actually in Beta 5 that is of course), I'm more concerned about the damage. If the damage was decreased, the two Gorgies wouldn't have died instantly, no, instead they'd be hurt bad though, and would need to get healed fast, because they know the SECOND shot would instantly kill them. That's an example of how I see it.

Well it's pretty much all I had to share with you guys.

Useless suggestions surely. I mean, I'm proud of my ideas I know I'd like them despite any other sayings. But I'm just still curious, enough to post the suggestions here. To...maybe one day, give an idea to someone able to change things officially.

Peace !

Keep up the superb work guys. N-S rules.

How To Change Fades

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