To me it seems that a lot of the alien fanatics right now want marines nerfed (or aliens buffed) to that point that a vanilla skulk should be able to rush a vanilla marine head on and take him down with little or no trouble at all. Which is kinda lame.
I agree with this thread though, the marines arent nearly as strong as people make them out to be. So what if they can shoot your hive through a wall, or attack you from a distance. You have sometimes almost ten times their HP, you're faster, you're stronger, and you can eat them.
*edit*IBT, I recognize your avatar, do you have a spray with that same picture and something about dissappointing Anubis?
<!--QuoteBegin-x5+Oct 6 2004, 01:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (x5 @ Oct 6 2004, 01:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not scared of onii in the new versions <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this says alot. Fades have a bigger impact. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Yash+Oct 6 2004, 02:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yash @ Oct 6 2004, 02:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> x5, now that I think about it, debuffing both sides would be a good idea. Now I have to change my sig >_>. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Give credit to Talesin. (the tiny bat, forum admin)
It was his idea. Everyone has liked it except for Chem who makes lots of arguments for argument's sake and no real logic. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Ajurian+Oct 6 2004, 05:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ajurian @ Oct 6 2004, 05:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-x5+Oct 6 2004, 01:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (x5 @ Oct 6 2004, 01:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not scared of onii in the new versions <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this says alot. Fades have a bigger impact. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is true isn't it? I can kill an onos easier with an HMG than a fade. (simply because it's hard to hit a good fade player and onos is a big target which can't get out of the way.)
Really the only thing to fear abotu an onos is the stomp which if you can find some cover and have teammates with you it's really easy to work around.
Heck and I'm a pro at the evade-shotgun combat so skulks and fades usually get killed or severely hurt if they get close to me. x5 & ZXNet with lvl 3 shotguns and HA or JP ftw! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~edit~
From my experince:
Best way to kill an onos is by having HMGs fire at it while someone in the back it baning grenades around the corner. The onos can get close when he stomps because of grenade spam. A couple of well placed mines can critically injure or kill an unwarry onos or at least keep him at bay until a skulk clears them. You always try to chase down a fleeing onos. Jetpackers with HMGs are an onos's worst nightmare. They can easily avoid your attacks and chase you down.
Really I see the main problem is in the overpowered automated base defenses. Turrets spam is an issue I have help bring to Zunni's attention and he wants to do something about it. But futhermore I mean just the HP of stucture is too high. Player attacks against structures should be greater than the defenses. This will promote powershifts and make it difficult to lockdown territory (such as hives).
I epitomize my point in the I&S idea about overshields (and shielding). When marines get up to theis level of technology they will be invincible and thus make it to where it's no longer a game that can go on for a long time but rather that aliens have an additional restraint that they must defeat the marines in a certain ammount of time or they will be impossible to stop and win for sure. That's not fun. What's fun is you destroying & killing the enemy and building & teching up yourselves. It's not fun having a static defense where you can't break a lockdown because it has been turret farmed to the point the server is about to crash. It is fun if you have a player made line of battle because all of the players are trying their hardest and is so balanced that it forms a line. That's fun because if you stop trying the enemy will win. (<b>example: balanced teams on TFC's warpath</b>)
EEK, are you <i>trying</i> to start a flame war with me? Calling my thread stupid is NOT constructive critisism. I'm not saying you HAVE to be a certain lifeform, I'm just trying to give tips for when you are a certain form!
I don't see any tips floating around about how to kill HMGers as a gorge, and did <i>you</i> offer any tips for anyone else?
<!--QuoteBegin-Perdition Flamethrower+Oct 6 2004, 10:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Perdition Flamethrower @ Oct 6 2004, 10:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So what if they can shoot your hive through a wall, or attack you from a distance. You have sometimes almost ten times their HP, you're faster, you're stronger, and you can eat them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> More HPs yes , provide they don't have HAs. It is easy to die to a HA/HMG after you ate another marine , you lose your HPs much faster than you can gore them.
Onos are slower than light marines without celerity. They are clumsy as well.
By eating a single marine , you slow down even more , and probably die in vain to marines chasing you with ease.
Of course , the weapons that killed you cost 2-3 times less ressources than your onos investment. And we're speaking about an uneven ressource system...
The problem with making the games longer is that it will drastricly reduce the amount of ADD people who play NS. Im not saying its a bad thing, but something to be aware of.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
I want my aveage NS games to take about 30 minutes. That sounds fun. The occasional one hour game is fun too.
About cloaking: No alien will ever have cloaking in a high level game in Classic unless the aliens have ALREADY WON. So using that as a viable counter to something is just pointless. In combat? sure, have fun with cloaking. Aliens are overpowered in combat anyways, although I prefer getting a good ambush spot instead of cloaking. It works nearly as well.
In Classic I think marines are a bit overpowered simply because unless you can bunnyhop like mad and the marine's skill level is lower than yours, skulks will lose to virtually everything (except possibly a lone GLer in LA, and then he might still pistol you to death). The lmg is a decent weapon, and it needs to be, I agree, but it totally destroys skulks.
I think if skulks can get upgrades for FREE, then things would balance out a lot more. Then, skulks won't be afraid of wasting res and delaying the hive or the Fade. The gestation will take time so it's balanced. Oh, and lower the default LMG to 9 damage a bullet, to help the vanilla skulks survive befroe they can get upgrades, but make it so weapons1 upgrade ups the damage to 11 per shot.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited October 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-Perdition Flamethrower+Oct 6 2004, 05:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Perdition Flamethrower @ Oct 6 2004, 05:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To me it seems that a lot of the alien fanatics right now want marines nerfed (or aliens buffed) to that point that a vanilla skulk should be able to rush a vanilla marine head on and take him down with little or no trouble at all. Which is kinda lame.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So basically if someone argues for the benefit of one side, you automatically assume that they are making that argument purely for selfish reasons?
Believe it or not, I prefer no one side over the other, and I do have the best interests of the game in mind. I also think you'll find that there are fewer pro-marine or pro-alien people than you seem to believe.
gah, it just seems that the marines are the bad guys in the I&S forums For example, lets say that someone posted a relativly(sp) ok idea for marines. this is what would happen: post 1: Idea post 2-5 or something: saying thats it might have a snowball's chance in hell of getting in rest of posts: "OMG GETS SKILLZ NUB!"
other idea that makes the fade into invincible, no clip, and instagib: Post 1: Idea post 2-5 or something: Ummm.... WTH? rest of posts: "OMG I WANNA HAVE YOUR KIDS!!!111!"
I just extremed attitudes and such to be humorous <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Perdition Flamethrower+Oct 6 2004, 09:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Perdition Flamethrower @ Oct 6 2004, 09:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To me it seems that a lot of the alien fanatics right now want marines nerfed (or aliens buffed) to that point that a vanilla skulk should be able to rush a vanilla marine head on and take him down with little or no trouble at all. Which is kinda lame.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually I was under the impression that Marines were this force that directly relied upon their teamwork prowess to obtain victory over the individually superior Aliens.
Of course, that obviously isn't the current practical case, but that's what was supposed to make NS so unique over other mindless shooter games out there. It really hasn't achieved it.
It's the aliens that require an ungodly amount of teamwork to win. Maybe I have my facts wrong but I thought the devs originally wanted the teamwork-oriented team to be the marines...
Most of the buffs people shuggest for aliens would over power. Im not pro-alien, nor am I pro-marine. Im pro-balance. right now I feel the game is very well balanced because I see alot of 20-30 min games on the pub I play on.And they are action packed and fun usualy. during clan play, I see more alien ties. than marine. I belive aliens are hard to learn and easy to master, while marines are easy to learn, hard to master.
How ever I know that the game is not perfectly blanace, or maybe it never will. but right now I feel its pretty close and just needs some very very minor tweaking.
Kinda like when you make popcorn the first time you might burn it. 2nd time, under cook it.
For the most part, the Kharaa has been nerfed with every update. The Kharaa team needs to be better balanced, instead of having to rely on a super fade to survive after the 4 minute mark.
Looking to have change for better balance doesn't mean that someone's a fanatic.
In any case, let's dissect how the Kharaa are forced to play for a second:
1.) lvl 0 marine > vanilla skulk
2.) The first few minutes is a desperate rush to get three things: RT's, Fade, #2 Hive.
3.) If the com is smart, they'll have MT after the 5 minute mark, meaning that the Kharaa team has no chance of using ambush.
4.) DMS is the standard of choice because the fade needs DC's more than any other chamber. Since the Fade is the Saviour of the Kharaa, DC's are the best way to go.
5.) In larger games resources flow slowly, stacking the odds against the Kharaa higher and higher.
6.) Kharaa RT's go down far quicker than the Marine RT.
...
and that's just for starters.
Now, the Kharaa team is unbalanced. It is over reliant on the Fade class. I'd like to see Kharaa classes a little more balanced, and yes, that means nerfing the fade and giving more to the Onos, as well as the skulk.
Also, the Kharaa res system needs to be scaled better. Having it balanced for 6 vs 6 is a travesty.
So, it's really about seeing the Kharaa team as underpowered, instead of the marine team as overpowered.
The only overpowered bit of Marine tech is MT, which needs definite rethinking.
Now, if both sides were nerfed, I believe that the Kharaa team would suffer far less than the marine team.
Also, nerfing both sides would require that many more changes.
okay, im getting tired of people complaining about hwo the aliens are unblanced DUE TO THE FACT that they rely purely on ONE uber fade owning a team. this is how the game has been designed. this is what makes aleins diffrant from marine. marines get genral upgrades, and weapons but thier class and rolls dont realy change that much. This is part of the flavor of NS I like. Aliens are Spacific rolls. marines are generlized. You mean you want a creature that spawns in for FREE to spend maybe 2-4 rez on upgradse to be = to a 52-54 rez alien??? why? to achive aliens win all the time?? thats how the game was made. If the devs wanted both the teams to be the same. Im sure by Version 3 they would have already done so.
Also are you basing your findings on a 10vs10 server or something? goto #nspug on mirc and play a pug game, to see how aliens SHOULD be played. (if you get a half way decent team. but usualy nspug does great)
but, it is still my firm belief that fixing the resourse system on a scalable bases will greatly fix most if not all of the balance problems.
Now dont say that marine mistakes are not as costly as aliens mistakes. I mean seriously. The com dropping a 2 rez medpack at the right moement, and place can mean the difrance between winning the game and not winning the game. HOw? downing fades are of the most importance during mid game. making a fade take the time to get another hit in for the kill igving your marine one more shot. And maybe that kills thier fade.
And remember. a realy good fade knows that the way to win is to stall tha marines and slow them. Not kill them.
I could probrably go on for pages and pages. but im realy not gonna try and explain EVERYTHING right now. dont have the time too. untill next time -Gecko.
Sorry if it seems a little flammy, i tired my best not to.
Honestly the kahraa aren't as weak as people make them out to be (or wish them to be it seems... :/ )
The aliens are fine in most respects. Fades kick butt, fades totally rock, fades are the gameplay device by which aliens are rewarded for surriving long enough at the start.
Marines have the initial advantage but they aren't exactly powerless. A skulk kills a marine faster than a marine can kill the skulk.
Much faster, but a good .4 seconds.
The aliens just need to take advantage of carefully set up ambushes of:
- Skulks hiding in obvious spots - Skulks hiding in non-obvious spots - Skulks bhopping at a full speed dash towards them
You mix all three of this ambush tactics together, and you create a situation that's VERY hard to defeat.
Marines have their advantages but against a well played alien team they are just powerful enough to defeat the aliens. Skilled aliens are extreamlly strong.
The main problems with aliens is that they are too easy to screw up with. Loss a 2500 hitpoint node and you are screwed for the rest of the game.
Aliens scale terribly in larger games. There is a DMS prevailence.
But overall, aliens aren't that much weaker. They are strong enough so that in general, the stronger team <b>skill-wise</b> almost always wins.
Make that <b>teamskill-wise</b> and I'd agree <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Why do i get the feeling that some people do find some really weird beginner servers to play on and value their oppinions on playing on those servers..
The question now is : Why do you <b>need</b> a good fade to win the game?
Kills strategies because this is one thing that keeps aliens from winning more games; the aliens are FORCED to do one thing, and that is get a good fade. Keyword <b>good</b>
With a bad fade, the chance of alien survival when the fade dies drops down significantly. Granted, someone else might be able to fade. He might EVEN be better than the other fade. But in most cases, everyone has already spent their res trying to support the fade that has already died.
Of course, it's possible to survive past that point with just skulks or maybe a lerk, but it still drops down to one thing : Once the fade dies, the marines go ape**** all over your hives.
Do not get me wrong, the game is almost finely balanced. It's just that it always RELIES on one thing : a good fade.
While the marine team can choose between slapping down RTs like a madman, shotgun rush your face, or rush MT, the alien game always boils into getting the 2nd hive AND a good fade.
It's just one of the things that lets me down in NS. You're FORCED to have a fade or it's most likely that you'll lose the game. It's mandatory. I can live with it. I already did for the last 8 incarnations of NS (3.0 betas and 2.0x) It's just that I want some open-endedness in Kharaa strategy, and not <u>always</u> rely on a Fade, or Start Of The Game Rush (SOTG Rush)
Apart from these 2 strategies, I can't see any other strategies that help win the game. Or fun for that matter. Maybe except the Gorge Rush....
<!--QuoteBegin-RaVe+Oct 7 2004, 05:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RaVe @ Oct 7 2004, 05:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The question now is : Why do you <b>need</b> a good fade to win the game?
Kills strategies because this is one thing that keeps aliens from winning more games; the aliens are FORCED to do one thing, and that is get a good fade. Keyword <b>good</b>
With a bad fade, the chance of alien survival when the fade dies drops down significantly. Granted, someone else might be able to fade. He might EVEN be better than the other fade. But in most cases, everyone has already spent their res trying to support the fade that has already died.
Of course, it's possible to survive past that point with just skulks or maybe a lerk, but it still drops down to one thing : Once the fade dies, the marines go ape**** all over your hives.
Do not get me wrong, the game is almost finely balanced. It's just that it always RELIES on one thing : a good fade.
While the marine team can choose between slapping down RTs like a madman, shotgun rush your face, or rush MT, the alien game always boils into getting the 2nd hive AND a good fade.
It's just one of the things that lets me down in NS. You're FORCED to have a fade or it's most likely that you'll lose the game. It's mandatory. I can live with it. I already did for the last 8 incarnations of NS (3.0 betas and 2.0x) It's just that I want some open-endedness in Kharaa strategy, and not <u>always</u> rely on a Fade, or Start Of The Game Rush (SOTG Rush)
Apart from these 2 strategies, I can't see any other strategies that help win the game. Or fun for that matter. Maybe except the Gorge Rush.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> WHy do you need shotguns and HMG's to win the game as marines?
Give me a break, man, why don't you try arguing that you should be able to win with peons in warcraft 3
Fades are fun, that's why Flay makes sure aliens get them and have to win with them, they are a skill based aspect of the alien game that either wins it for you or makes you lose, and keeps the game interesting, fresh, dynamic, etc. etc., part of the role for a fade is being that you <b>don't know who is gonna win</b> as long as fades are out.
You talk about dull strategies, the three strats you just listed for marines:
- Shotgun rush? Doesn't work - Rush MT? Only works on huge maps - Slapping down RT's? The only real viable strategy, actually the marine game consists of this:
Attacking alien nodes while putting down your own in the first 5 or so min before fades pop out and kill every LMG marine on your team, then you send out SG's to counter the fade plus get steady upgrades, etc. etc.
This is your typical marine game, it never changes for the most part, and on top of that people fail to realize that the varition is in how you play out the fights. Honestly, who cares about overall strategy when you have varying tactics? It's the same in CS, and that's why CS is a popular game.
By the way, a SOTG "Rush" is called being agressive - it exists in every game, it's a key way of winning, because if you take advantage of someone's passiveness... of course you are going to win.
A fade is not a forced tactic, if anything it's just another tool by which aliens can play out their strategy.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
The fade is a <b>forced strategic solution</b> to win vs. a skilled marine team, not a optional tactic.
When playing against skilled teams, the first four minutes of the alien game mainly consist of delaying the marines till the fades arrive.
During this start of the game, the marines have a slight advantage over the aliens.
The aliens are too dependent on those 1/2/(rare cases 3) fades. If they make a mistake and go down chances are that you just lost the game. The marines however due to their team-res-pool can just pour out an additional hmg/sg or whatever. Count how many hmgs/sg can be poured out in a game where the aliens have 0.5-0.6 RTs/player and be surprised. Now of course numbers aren't anything.
I feel that the marines are just simply too versatile and have many more different paths to choose, while the a typical competative game for the aliens are mostly, slam down those 2 early RTs, protect them and wait for the fade. Only when the fade arrive can the skulks turn offensive.
<!--QuoteBegin-illuminex+Oct 6 2004, 09:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (illuminex @ Oct 6 2004, 09:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> For the most part, the Kharaa has been nerfed with every update. The Kharaa team needs to be better balanced, instead of having to rely on a super fade to survive after the 4 minute mark.
Looking to have change for better balance doesn't mean that someone's a fanatic.
In any case, let's dissect how the Kharaa are forced to play for a second:
1.) lvl 0 marine > vanilla skulk
2.) The first few minutes is a desperate rush to get three things: RT's, Fade, #2 Hive.
3.) If the com is smart, they'll have MT after the 5 minute mark, meaning that the Kharaa team has no chance of using ambush.
4.) DMS is the standard of choice because the fade needs DC's more than any other chamber. Since the Fade is the Saviour of the Kharaa, DC's are the best way to go.
5.) In larger games resources flow slowly, stacking the odds against the Kharaa higher and higher.
6.) Kharaa RT's go down far quicker than the Marine RT. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> One can't argue with those points. From my experince those are true. Yet more reson why I want to see some of the really cool ideas in the I&S's next version sub forum implemented in B6. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Developer who will remain unnamed on this quote for his own protection "Alien fans will like the balance changes we made in B6."
Your guys are forgetting one things, aliens are ment to be defensive, not attackive. Think about this to. The effectiveness of skulks goes up considerable when they 2 hives. and when the alien team has 3 hive. Aliens are ment to win.
The aliens Have specialed units that do speciazied jobs while marines dont have that as much. they have inter changable weapons to do the job. aliens are about having tactical diversity. You need fades, because half game the marines are powerfull, and the skulk turns into a go around and eat RTs.
I mean, How do you envision the game should be? Skulks run around and are able to destroy everything? Lerks are able to counter Heavies and Onos JPs? Fades are little weaklings?
Now the other this is. The resourses for Aliens or More expensive than marines. generaly speaking the aleins will get 3-4 rez nodes. and because they do not pool thier resourses, its makes them more job and indivudual listic.
Now when you facing realy good teams in clan play. having good fades is not enough. You also need a good lerk, a good gorge (its suprising how hard it is to scew up the gorge part) and some good skulks too. with out the. the fades WILL NOT be enough.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've seen many people talk about how the marines are overpowered. Guess what They aren't!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Gecko God Of DOOOM+Oct 7 2004, 01:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gecko God Of DOOOM @ Oct 7 2004, 01:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your guys are forgetting one things, aliens are ment to be defensive, not <s>attackive</s> offensive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Correction. They <i>both</i> are offensive and defensive in their own ways. They can adapt better offense or defense upgrades too.
For powershifts you want the balance tipped a little more to the offensive > defensive side. You want upgrades to increase in f(x)=x function rather than an exponential one so you can allow for longer games to occur and not having which ever team get to a certain tech level first will become so uber-defensive or offensive (or both) that they cannot be destroyed and the powershifting suddenly slams to the favor of that one side. Are you following me?
Yes what you argues about aliens being defensive is some what true but so are marines. As a matter of fact, thanks to the borked RFK system marines can hide in their bases and just kill until they get enough res to tech up. So one could also argue that marines are also meant to be on the defensive. And here lies the real problem:
Defensive vs. Defensive -- like trench warefare in WWI, neither side can make any signifigant powershifting Winning is a boring process You can't gain or loose territory, it is "locked down" by excellent automated defenses
Offensive vs. Offensive -- yes holding territory is harder, structures and bases go down easier too, but this is more fun. Why? Well we all like 4 things the NS hybrid brings to the table: killing enemies destroying enemy stuff building bases & the strategies this intertwines into the gameplay doing research/adapting & the strategies this intertwines into the gameplay
Now this gets confusing because there is also offensive and defensive for the individual player, but I'm talking about the whole team (structures and players).
<!--QuoteBegin-Gecko God Of DOOOM+Oct 7 2004, 12:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gecko God Of DOOOM @ Oct 7 2004, 12:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now when you facing realy good teams in clan play. having good fades is not enough. You also need a good lerk, a good gorge (its suprising how hard it is to scew up the gorge part) and some good skulks too. with out the. the fades WILL NOT be enough. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Except now you're talking about top tier games. Of course in top tier games you need everyone to be good. That's part of what makes it top tier.
The difference is, even in lower level games, you still need a good fade. The survival of the alien team hinges on it. In lower level games, having the world's most elite gorge or skulk doesn't mean much if you don't have a decent fade. Similarly, having mediocre to crap gorges and skulks still doesn't guaruntee a loss if you have a good fade.
This is what's meant by saying that the alien team revolves around its fade, and that's simply wrong. For those who play fade well, I suppose it feels great knowing that you'll be the star of the game every time. It'd be nice though if some of the other players could be as important too, however.
Comments
I agree with this thread though, the marines arent nearly as strong as people make them out to be. So what if they can shoot your hive through a wall, or attack you from a distance. You have sometimes almost ten times their HP, you're faster, you're stronger, and you can eat them.
*edit*IBT, I recognize your avatar, do you have a spray with that same picture and something about dissappointing Anubis?
I think this says alot. Fades have a bigger impact. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
"To counter this, you have to be <lifeform> and have <upgrade 1> <upgrade 2> and <upgrade 3>. <Hive 3> ability also helps. It's so simple!"
That's not balance, you chestnut, that's insanity. That's like making skulks with carapace immune to weapon level 1 and 3, but not 0 and 2.
Give credit to Talesin. (the tiny bat, forum admin)
It was his idea. Everyone has liked it except for Chem who makes lots of arguments for argument's sake and no real logic. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think this says alot. Fades have a bigger impact. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is true isn't it? I can kill an onos easier with an HMG than a fade. (simply because it's hard to hit a good fade player and onos is a big target which can't get out of the way.)
Really the only thing to fear abotu an onos is the stomp which if you can find some cover and have teammates with you it's really easy to work around.
Heck and I'm a pro at the evade-shotgun combat so skulks and fades usually get killed or severely hurt if they get close to me. x5 & ZXNet with lvl 3 shotguns and HA or JP ftw! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~edit~
From my experince:
Best way to kill an onos is by having HMGs fire at it while someone in the back it baning grenades around the corner. The onos can get close when he stomps because of grenade spam. A couple of well placed mines can critically injure or kill an unwarry onos or at least keep him at bay until a skulk clears them. You always try to chase down a fleeing onos. Jetpackers with HMGs are an onos's worst nightmare. They can easily avoid your attacks and chase you down.
Really I see the main problem is in the overpowered automated base defenses. Turrets spam is an issue I have help bring to Zunni's attention and he wants to do something about it. But futhermore I mean just the HP of stucture is too high. Player attacks against structures should be greater than the defenses. This will promote powershifts and make it difficult to lockdown territory (such as hives).
I epitomize my point in the I&S idea about overshields (and shielding). When marines get up to theis level of technology they will be invincible and thus make it to where it's no longer a game that can go on for a long time but rather that aliens have an additional restraint that they must defeat the marines in a certain ammount of time or they will be impossible to stop and win for sure. That's not fun. What's fun is you destroying & killing the enemy and building & teching up yourselves. It's not fun having a static defense where you can't break a lockdown because it has been turret farmed to the point the server is about to crash. It is fun if you have a player made line of battle because all of the players are trying their hardest and is so balanced that it forms a line. That's fun because if you stop trying the enemy will win. (<b>example: balanced teams on TFC's warpath</b>)
I'm not saying you HAVE to be a certain lifeform, I'm just trying to give tips for when you are a certain form!
I don't see any tips floating around about how to kill HMGers as a gorge, and did
<i>you</i> offer any tips for anyone else?
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More HPs yes , provide they don't have HAs. It is easy to die to a HA/HMG after you ate another marine , you lose your HPs much faster than you can gore them.
Onos are slower than light marines without celerity. They are clumsy as well.
By eating a single marine , you slow down even more , and probably die in vain to marines chasing you with ease.
Of course , the weapons that killed you cost 2-3 times less ressources than your onos investment. And we're speaking about an uneven ressource system...
About cloaking: No alien will ever have cloaking in a high level game in Classic unless the aliens have ALREADY WON. So using that as a viable counter to something is just pointless. In combat? sure, have fun with cloaking. Aliens are overpowered in combat anyways, although I prefer getting a good ambush spot instead of cloaking. It works nearly as well.
In Classic I think marines are a bit overpowered simply because unless you can bunnyhop like mad and the marine's skill level is lower than yours, skulks will lose to virtually everything (except possibly a lone GLer in LA, and then he might still pistol you to death). The lmg is a decent weapon, and it needs to be, I agree, but it totally destroys skulks.
I think if skulks can get upgrades for FREE, then things would balance out a lot more. Then, skulks won't be afraid of wasting res and delaying the hive or the Fade. The gestation will take time so it's balanced. Oh, and lower the default LMG to 9 damage a bullet, to help the vanilla skulks survive befroe they can get upgrades, but make it so weapons1 upgrade ups the damage to 11 per shot.
So basically if someone argues for the benefit of one side, you automatically assume that they are making that argument purely for selfish reasons?
Believe it or not, I prefer no one side over the other, and I do have the best interests of the game in mind. I also think you'll find that there are fewer pro-marine or pro-alien people than you seem to believe.
Hence, my sig.
For example, lets say that someone posted a relativly(sp) ok idea for marines.
this is what would happen:
post 1: Idea
post 2-5 or something: saying thats it might have a snowball's chance in hell of getting in
rest of posts: "OMG GETS SKILLZ NUB!"
other idea that makes the fade into invincible, no clip, and instagib:
Post 1: Idea
post 2-5 or something: Ummm.... WTH?
rest of posts: "OMG I WANNA HAVE YOUR KIDS!!!111!"
I just extremed attitudes and such to be humorous <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Actually I was under the impression that Marines were this force that directly relied upon their teamwork prowess to obtain victory over the individually superior Aliens.
Of course, that obviously isn't the current practical case, but that's what was supposed to make NS so unique over other mindless shooter games out there. It really hasn't achieved it.
It's the aliens that require an ungodly amount of teamwork to win. Maybe I have my facts wrong but I thought the devs originally wanted the teamwork-oriented team to be the marines...
How ever I know that the game is not perfectly blanace, or maybe it never will. but right now I feel its pretty close and just needs some very very minor tweaking.
Kinda like when you make popcorn the first time you might burn it. 2nd time, under cook it.
Looking to have change for better balance doesn't mean that someone's a fanatic.
In any case, let's dissect how the Kharaa are forced to play for a second:
1.) lvl 0 marine > vanilla skulk
2.) The first few minutes is a desperate rush to get three things: RT's, Fade, #2 Hive.
3.) If the com is smart, they'll have MT after the 5 minute mark, meaning that the Kharaa team has no chance of using ambush.
4.) DMS is the standard of choice because the fade needs DC's more than any other chamber. Since the Fade is the Saviour of the Kharaa, DC's are the best way to go.
5.) In larger games resources flow slowly, stacking the odds against the Kharaa higher and higher.
6.) Kharaa RT's go down far quicker than the Marine RT.
...
and that's just for starters.
Now, the Kharaa team is unbalanced. It is over reliant on the Fade class. I'd like to see Kharaa classes a little more balanced, and yes, that means nerfing the fade and giving more to the Onos, as well as the skulk.
Also, the Kharaa res system needs to be scaled better. Having it balanced for 6 vs 6 is a travesty.
So, it's really about seeing the Kharaa team as underpowered, instead of the marine team as overpowered.
The only overpowered bit of Marine tech is MT, which needs definite rethinking.
Now, if both sides were nerfed, I believe that the Kharaa team would suffer far less than the marine team.
Also, nerfing both sides would require that many more changes.
Also are you basing your findings on a 10vs10 server or something? goto #nspug on mirc and play a pug game, to see how aliens SHOULD be played. (if you get a half way decent team. but usualy nspug does great)
but, it is still my firm belief that fixing the resourse system on a scalable bases will greatly fix most if not all of the balance problems.
Now dont say that marine mistakes are not as costly as aliens mistakes. I mean seriously. The com dropping a 2 rez medpack at the right moement, and place can mean the difrance between winning the game and not winning the game. HOw? downing fades are of the most importance during mid game. making a fade take the time to get another hit in for the kill igving your marine one more shot. And maybe that kills thier fade.
And remember. a realy good fade knows that the way to win is to stall tha marines and slow them. Not kill them.
I could probrably go on for pages and pages. but im realy not gonna try and explain EVERYTHING right now. dont have the time too. untill next time
-Gecko.
Sorry if it seems a little flammy, i tired my best not to.
Now I have another question.
Honestly the kahraa aren't as weak as people make them out to be (or wish them to be it seems... :/ )
The aliens are fine in most respects. Fades kick butt, fades totally rock, fades are the gameplay device by which aliens are rewarded for surriving long enough at the start.
Marines have the initial advantage but they aren't exactly powerless. A skulk kills a marine faster than a marine can kill the skulk.
Much faster, but a good .4 seconds.
The aliens just need to take advantage of carefully set up ambushes of:
- Skulks hiding in obvious spots
- Skulks hiding in non-obvious spots
- Skulks bhopping at a full speed dash towards them
You mix all three of this ambush tactics together, and you create a situation that's VERY hard to defeat.
Marines have their advantages but against a well played alien team they are just powerful enough to defeat the aliens. Skilled aliens are extreamlly strong.
The main problems with aliens is that they are too easy to screw up with. Loss a 2500 hitpoint node and you are screwed for the rest of the game.
Aliens scale terribly in larger games. There is a DMS prevailence.
But overall, aliens aren't that much weaker. They are strong enough so that in general, the stronger team <b>skill-wise</b> almost always wins.
Kills strategies because this is one thing that keeps aliens from winning more games; the aliens are FORCED to do one thing, and that is get a good fade. Keyword <b>good</b>
With a bad fade, the chance of alien survival when the fade dies drops down significantly. Granted, someone else might be able to fade. He might EVEN be better than the other fade. But in most cases, everyone has already spent their res trying to support the fade that has already died.
Of course, it's possible to survive past that point with just skulks or maybe a lerk, but it still drops down to one thing : Once the fade dies, the marines go ape**** all over your hives.
Do not get me wrong, the game is almost finely balanced. It's just that it always RELIES on one thing : a good fade.
While the marine team can choose between slapping down RTs like a madman, shotgun rush your face, or rush MT, the alien game always boils into getting the 2nd hive AND a good fade.
It's just one of the things that lets me down in NS. You're FORCED to have a fade or it's most likely that you'll lose the game. It's mandatory.
I can live with it. I already did for the last 8 incarnations of NS (3.0 betas and 2.0x)
It's just that I want some open-endedness in Kharaa strategy, and not <u>always</u> rely on a Fade, or Start Of The Game Rush (SOTG Rush)
Apart from these 2 strategies, I can't see any other strategies that help win the game. Or fun for that matter. Maybe except the Gorge Rush....
Kills strategies because this is one thing that keeps aliens from winning more games; the aliens are FORCED to do one thing, and that is get a good fade. Keyword <b>good</b>
With a bad fade, the chance of alien survival when the fade dies drops down significantly. Granted, someone else might be able to fade. He might EVEN be better than the other fade. But in most cases, everyone has already spent their res trying to support the fade that has already died.
Of course, it's possible to survive past that point with just skulks or maybe a lerk, but it still drops down to one thing : Once the fade dies, the marines go ape**** all over your hives.
Do not get me wrong, the game is almost finely balanced. It's just that it always RELIES on one thing : a good fade.
While the marine team can choose between slapping down RTs like a madman, shotgun rush your face, or rush MT, the alien game always boils into getting the 2nd hive AND a good fade.
It's just one of the things that lets me down in NS. You're FORCED to have a fade or it's most likely that you'll lose the game. It's mandatory.
I can live with it. I already did for the last 8 incarnations of NS (3.0 betas and 2.0x)
It's just that I want some open-endedness in Kharaa strategy, and not <u>always</u> rely on a Fade, or Start Of The Game Rush (SOTG Rush)
Apart from these 2 strategies, I can't see any other strategies that help win the game. Or fun for that matter. Maybe except the Gorge Rush.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WHy do you need shotguns and HMG's to win the game as marines?
Give me a break, man, why don't you try arguing that you should be able to win with peons in warcraft 3
Fades are fun, that's why Flay makes sure aliens get them and have to win with them, they are a skill based aspect of the alien game that either wins it for you or makes you lose, and keeps the game interesting, fresh, dynamic, etc. etc., part of the role for a fade is being that you <b>don't know who is gonna win</b> as long as fades are out.
You talk about dull strategies, the three strats you just listed for marines:
- Shotgun rush? Doesn't work
- Rush MT? Only works on huge maps
- Slapping down RT's? The only real viable strategy, actually the marine game consists of this:
Attacking alien nodes while putting down your own in the first 5 or so min before fades pop out and kill every LMG marine on your team, then you send out SG's to counter the fade plus get steady upgrades, etc. etc.
This is your typical marine game, it never changes for the most part, and on top of that people fail to realize that the varition is in how you play out the fights. Honestly, who cares about overall strategy when you have varying tactics? It's the same in CS, and that's why CS is a popular game.
By the way, a SOTG "Rush" is called being agressive - it exists in every game, it's a key way of winning, because if you take advantage of someone's passiveness... of course you are going to win.
A fade is not a forced tactic, if anything it's just another tool by which aliens can play out their strategy.
When playing against skilled teams, the first four minutes of the alien game mainly consist of delaying the marines till the fades arrive.
During this start of the game, the marines have a slight advantage over the aliens.
I feel that the marines are just simply too versatile and have many more different paths to choose, while the a typical competative game for the aliens are mostly, slam down those 2 early RTs, protect them and wait for the fade. Only when the fade arrive can the skulks turn offensive.
Looking to have change for better balance doesn't mean that someone's a fanatic.
In any case, let's dissect how the Kharaa are forced to play for a second:
1.) lvl 0 marine > vanilla skulk
2.) The first few minutes is a desperate rush to get three things: RT's, Fade, #2 Hive.
3.) If the com is smart, they'll have MT after the 5 minute mark, meaning that the Kharaa team has no chance of using ambush.
4.) DMS is the standard of choice because the fade needs DC's more than any other chamber. Since the Fade is the Saviour of the Kharaa, DC's are the best way to go.
5.) In larger games resources flow slowly, stacking the odds against the Kharaa higher and higher.
6.) Kharaa RT's go down far quicker than the Marine RT. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
One can't argue with those points. From my experince those are true. Yet more reson why I want to see some of the really cool ideas in the I&S's next version sub forum implemented in B6. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Developer who will remain unnamed on this quote for his own protection
"Alien fans will like the balance changes we made in B6."
The aliens Have specialed units that do speciazied jobs while marines dont have that as much. they have inter changable weapons to do the job. aliens are about having tactical diversity. You need fades, because half game the marines are powerfull, and the skulk turns into a go around and eat RTs.
I mean, How do you envision the game should be?
Skulks run around and are able to destroy everything?
Lerks are able to counter Heavies and Onos JPs?
Fades are little weaklings?
Now the other this is. The resourses for Aliens or More expensive than marines. generaly speaking the aleins will get 3-4 rez nodes. and because they do not pool thier resourses, its makes them more job and indivudual listic.
Now when you facing realy good teams in clan play. having good fades is not enough. You also need a good lerk, a good gorge (its suprising how hard it is to scew up the gorge part) and some good skulks too. with out the. the fades WILL NOT be enough.
Yes they are. <!--emo&::tsa::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tsa.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tsa.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Correction. They <i>both</i> are offensive and defensive in their own ways. They can adapt better offense or defense upgrades too.
For powershifts you want the balance tipped a little more to the offensive > defensive side. You want upgrades to increase in f(x)=x function rather than an exponential one so you can allow for longer games to occur and not having which ever team get to a certain tech level first will become so uber-defensive or offensive (or both) that they cannot be destroyed and the powershifting suddenly slams to the favor of that one side. Are you following me?
Yes what you argues about aliens being defensive is some what true but so are marines. As a matter of fact, thanks to the borked RFK system marines can hide in their bases and just kill until they get enough res to tech up. So one could also argue that marines are also meant to be on the defensive. And here lies the real problem:
Defensive vs. Defensive -- like trench warefare in WWI, neither side can make any signifigant powershifting
Winning is a boring process
You can't gain or loose territory, it is "locked down" by excellent automated defenses
Offensive vs. Offensive -- yes holding territory is harder, structures and bases go down easier too, but this is more fun. Why? Well we all like 4 things the NS hybrid brings to the table:
killing enemies
destroying enemy stuff
building bases & the strategies this intertwines into the gameplay
doing research/adapting & the strategies this intertwines into the gameplay
Now this gets confusing because there is also offensive and defensive for the individual player, but I'm talking about the whole team (structures and players).
Except now you're talking about top tier games.
Of course in top tier games you need everyone to be good. That's part of what makes it top tier.
The difference is, even in lower level games, you still need a good fade. The survival of the alien team hinges on it. In lower level games, having the world's most elite gorge or skulk doesn't mean much if you don't have a decent fade. Similarly, having mediocre to crap gorges and skulks still doesn't guaruntee a loss if you have a good fade.
This is what's meant by saying that the alien team revolves around its fade, and that's simply wrong. For those who play fade well, I suppose it feels great knowing that you'll be the star of the game every time. It'd be nice though if some of the other players could be as important too, however.
And marines always get stuck with a terrible commander