The Marines Are Not Overpowered!
Yash
Join Date: 2004-09-07 Member: 31501Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2004-09-07 Member: 31501Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">First long post from me ever...</div> I've seen many people talk about how the marines are overpowered. Guess what <i>They aren't!!!</i>
I'm not pro-marine. But I do play mostly on the alien team so thats why I can give highly accurate information on this subject. This info shows how any weapon and the armors can be countered, thus explaining why the marines and aliens are basically balanced.
Now, here's how to counter marine weapons. I'll try to use more than just one alien class when explaing how to counter things.
LMG- Any higher class except gorges completely owns a marine with this weapon. But for skulks, its a different story. Strafing, jumping, leaping, all these tactics will get you closer to that marine while taking little or no damage. Once you're close enough to bite you are basically home free.
Shotgun- A fade can quickly take out a lone shotgunner by quickly blinking in and strafing while swiping. Any other classes except the onos usually lose when having a shotgun aimed at them. If there is more than one shotgunner, unless you are with a teamate, run!
HMG- This weapon requires some serious craftyness and regen to counter. Most of the time though, you can just cloak in a corner and wait for the HMGer to go by and attack him from behind. Regen will recover the damage you suffered when fighting the guy. If your a skulk, unless he did not see you, you will most likely be killed.
Grenade Launcher- THE most hated marine weapon ever. Lerks can fly higher to escape the blast, and skulks can climb up a wall, but the higher life forms are really going to suffer some damage. Regen and carapace will help a lot here.
Heavy Armor-I really feel bad for these guys. Without an HMG, a skulk can do some serious damage. And to make it worse, oni can devour them,(which I think is impossible due to the size of the onos' mouth and the size of the HA)completely ruining their "reign of terror".
Jetpack- This has been at the bad end of many whines and nerf requests. But in reality, they are not that hard to counter. Skillful skulks can chase them up walls and near the hive, gorges can web the area, lerks can fly and bite them, fades can blink and swipe in the air, the oni's size let them jump up and devour them!
In my opinion, nothing in on the marine side needs a nerf, because of all the ways to counter each weapon. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read this, I hope you liked it!
I'm not pro-marine. But I do play mostly on the alien team so thats why I can give highly accurate information on this subject. This info shows how any weapon and the armors can be countered, thus explaining why the marines and aliens are basically balanced.
Now, here's how to counter marine weapons. I'll try to use more than just one alien class when explaing how to counter things.
LMG- Any higher class except gorges completely owns a marine with this weapon. But for skulks, its a different story. Strafing, jumping, leaping, all these tactics will get you closer to that marine while taking little or no damage. Once you're close enough to bite you are basically home free.
Shotgun- A fade can quickly take out a lone shotgunner by quickly blinking in and strafing while swiping. Any other classes except the onos usually lose when having a shotgun aimed at them. If there is more than one shotgunner, unless you are with a teamate, run!
HMG- This weapon requires some serious craftyness and regen to counter. Most of the time though, you can just cloak in a corner and wait for the HMGer to go by and attack him from behind. Regen will recover the damage you suffered when fighting the guy. If your a skulk, unless he did not see you, you will most likely be killed.
Grenade Launcher- THE most hated marine weapon ever. Lerks can fly higher to escape the blast, and skulks can climb up a wall, but the higher life forms are really going to suffer some damage. Regen and carapace will help a lot here.
Heavy Armor-I really feel bad for these guys. Without an HMG, a skulk can do some serious damage. And to make it worse, oni can devour them,(which I think is impossible due to the size of the onos' mouth and the size of the HA)completely ruining their "reign of terror".
Jetpack- This has been at the bad end of many whines and nerf requests. But in reality, they are not that hard to counter. Skillful skulks can chase them up walls and near the hive, gorges can web the area, lerks can fly and bite them, fades can blink and swipe in the air, the oni's size let them jump up and devour them!
In my opinion, nothing in on the marine side needs a nerf, because of all the ways to counter each weapon. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read this, I hope you liked it!
Comments
Everyone read Invader Scoot's post before commeting ok?
Oops...<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
1) Do you regularly play organized matches?
2) What is the level of teamwork in the servers you normally play on?
I have found through a few organized matches (not regularly, but some every now and then) and the simple fact that I play on a teamwork-saturated (voice comms are always active and attacks and strategies always discussed) server that marines aren't as powerful as people make them out to be.
The problem I see is that aliens are acting more individualistic than the marines will allow. The aliens are the ones who really need to move in groups to take out bases, especially due to their lifeforms taking specific roles. On average pubs, they don't do that, but they do in organized matches or any teamwork-heavy locale.
As for firepower balance, it certainly seems well matched, as you said. Unfortunately, the grand scheme of things involves a lot of wasted firepower on the alien side by spreading too thin and not working as a team.
kinda what I was thinking.
1 v 1, aliens have equal or better chances of killing most any given marine, excluding skulks vs 3/3 HA HMG. The imbalance occurs because marines work so much better in groups than aliens. Unless ff is on, there is no disadvantage really to being in a large group, and more people means every possible angle, vent, and corner can be covered. Focused fire is insta-gib for skulks.
Aliens, on the other hand, often get in the way when attacking together, except for the lerk because it can fly, and that's only if the battle is in a big room. Skulks near each other interfere with each other's bunnyhopping, and also a line of skulks will go down faster than the same number one at a time, because stray bullets that miss the intended target end up accidentally hitting the guy next to him.
So basically, if there was absolutely NO teamwork at all then the game might be balanced; the early game would be just a random deathmatch between aliens and marines. However, as the skill level of the players goes up, the balance shifts to the marine team by default.
PM a moderator or admin - they should be able to change it for you.
The level of teamwork I see on most server is actually pretty high, Sometimes I see commanders use their boice comm so much that we have to type to talk to him!
The level of teamwork I see on most server is actually pretty high, Sometimes I see commanders use their boice comm so much that we have to type to talk to him! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is generally a good thing. Most amount of stuff you'll have to say to a good comm is "Fade." "Onos." and "PG @ <hive location>". The rest you can ask for orders witgh the pop up menu
That won't really work against decent marines. It'll slightly increase your lifespan, but they'll still kill you with ease if you rush them. The best, and only reasonably reliable tactics against good marines are to either surprise them, or attack them with much greater numbers.
<!--QuoteBegin-Yash+Oct 5 2004, 04:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yash @ Oct 5 2004, 04:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Grenade Launcher- THE most hated marine weapon ever. Lerks can fly higher to escape the blast, and skulks can climb up a wall, but the higher life forms are really going to suffer some damage. Regen and carapace will help a lot here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grenade launchers are only really a threat to lower lifeforms. Against higher lifeforms they do much less damage than shotguns or HMGs.
<!--QuoteBegin-Yash+Oct 5 2004, 04:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yash @ Oct 5 2004, 04:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Jetpack- This has been at the bad end of many whines and nerf requests. But in reality, they are not that hard to counter. Skillful skulks can chase them up walls and near the hive, gorges can web the area, lerks can fly and bite them, fades can blink and swipe in the air, the oni's size let them jump up and devour them!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any scenario that includes webs is not realistic, as they require three hives. Skulks without leap rarely kill jetpackers unless the area is swarming with them, as jetpackers can dodge too easily. Lerks without celerity travel too slowly to catch jetpackers consistently, and they are weak and easily killed. The only real options against jetpacks at 1 hive are blink-swipe, and swarming. At 2 hives, though, jetpackers can usually be stopped without too much difficulty as long as the alien team has advance warning.
<!--QuoteBegin-5kyh16h91+Oct 5 2004, 06:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (5kyh16h91 @ Oct 5 2004, 06:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1 v 1, aliens have equal or better chances of killing most any given marine, excluding skulks vs 3/3 HA HMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks have the disadvanage against just about anything. Even level 0 light marines, in most cases (though it depends on the map). Their only advantage, really, is their speed and ability to climb walls to take shortcuts, both of which allow them to traverse the map more quickly.
i keep hearing too many times from marines "ogm focus is ****, skilless." and from the ailens "OMG they got jp! F4! F4! bunch of losers cant fight right!"
<b><i>USELESS!!</i></b>
Skulks have the disadvanage against just about anything. Even level 0 light marines, in most cases (though it depends on the map). Their only advantage, really, is their speed and ability to climb walls to take shortcuts, both of which allow them to traverse the map more quickly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
My bad, I meant to put in a disclaimer about the intelligence of the skulk. It's not about the fighting ability that makes a good skulk (though timing your bites and not spamming is a huge help). It's putting yourself in an advantageous position, namely in the marine's feet. 1v1, a good marine rambo wandering into alien territory vs a good skulk stalker, the skulk should always win because it can give up ground to the marine until he's vulnerable. It only takes a second of being distracted for a skulk to reach a marine from a hiding spot. Obviously leap, silence, celerity, carapace, cloaking, or scent of fear tip the balance more towards the skulk.
Actually, close quarters are not always a skulk's best friend. You can kill a lone shotgunner up close if you get him from behind, but he'd also have to have really slow reaction times to not turn around and blast you before the second or third bite. However, a second hive skulk with leap, regen and any movement upgrade can easily take out 2 or 3 shotgunners provided they're in a room with a high ceiling and lots of dodging room.
Also, a good second-hive skulk will not take out two competent shotgunners without a lot of luck, as it must close the distance with them to bite them, and at that range the marines can easily kill it with their shotguns. Even if it never stops moving due to constant leaping, as long as the marines are close to its skill level, they won't have much trouble shotgunning it mid-leap.
The reason why they are these:
1) They are allowed to screw up a lot more than the aliens.
2) Phasegates, allows one marine to ninja and set up a pg, the entire marineteam phases through and kills that 2nd hive.
I played a scrim last night, against a pretty good clan.
We played on metal and I hardly know that map.
In the end it came out as a marine draw, only becuase I was able to get a pg up to their building hive while their entire team tried to storm me (they didnt have fades yet though). I killed about 6-7 skulks and one lerk. All alone, with some help by meds.
When the pg got up m y team phased through and it was gg hive.
I just think that pgs need some kind of nerfing, be it longer research time or something.
The lmg could also need some nerfing, but if you play right (Ambush in pairs etc) then an lmg:er isnt a big deal.
Yeah sure a skillful skulk can take down a JP. But a skillful JP can take down 10 skillful skulks.
that right there, thats EXACTLY what i mean.
nothing the ailens have cannot be countered
nothing the marines have cannot be countered.
so, next time when you say "ogm cloak is ****"
get yourself scanner sweep, it kills everyones cloaking!
sigh... god...
He suggests cloaking as counter to HMG... so it must be combat.
the GL itself is a clumsy, laggy weapon...good for spamming, but bad for close combat, so i yeh get in close, maybe take a nade and live, as a fade, but then again, they only have 4 shots
The reason why they are these:
1) They are allowed to screw up a lot more than the aliens.
2) Phasegates, allows one marine to ninja and set up a pg, the entire marineteam phases through and kills that 2nd hive.
I played a scrim last night, against a pretty good clan.
We played on metal and I hardly know that map.
In the end it came out as a marine draw, only becuase I was able to get a pg up to their building hive while their entire team tried to storm me (they didnt have fades yet though). I killed about 6-7 skulks and one lerk. All alone, with some help by meds.
When the pg got up m y team phased through and it was gg hive.
I just think that pgs need some kind of nerfing, be it longer research time or something.
The lmg could also need some nerfing, but if you play right (Ambush in pairs etc) then an lmg:er isnt a big deal. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So basicly your saying that because the alien team lacked the teamwork to have somone patrol the hive. marines are over powered. ......*right*.....
You would be surprised on how often you dont get ninjas when you have 1 skulk goto M start and just parasight everyone who comes outa the ip.
also, you should have that one or two skulks that try and take down the advanced armory, or their arms lab, or something.
you also saying that mistakes on the marine side arn't as costly. this is true im some ways, and not in another.
what you have to realise is that one team at one point will need to make a crusial mistake.
other than stupid mistakes like. dropping an OC ontop of a RT or an arms lab instead of a medpack. etc etc.
what type of mistakes are you talking about? can you give me at least 3 examples.
PG example doesn't count. because the marine mistake version of that is a skulk rushing to take out the obs or arms lab, or advnaced(ing) armory
thank you in advanced.
We need to de-buff both sides, especially in structure HP. Why? To make powershifts come back. What you are suggesting will make short 10-15 min games which makes me want to punch you in the face. lol. No, I agree with Talesin on this issue. Put the fun and epicness back. Not instagib, invinvibility, pratically indestructable strucutres/bases, and really short games. (results of buffing different varibles)
<!--QuoteBegin-coris+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They are allowed to screw up a lot more than the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is true. For better or worse.
PS: Onos devour working on HA is essential to the late game balance, try a pluggin if you don't believe me.
If the commander drops shotguns, he's going to drop them in quantity, and you'll often find many marines grouped with shotguns. And you suggest to run? What happens if we're outside your hive, what are you going to do? Not do anything?
The LMG is an incredibly powerful weapon, it decimates skulks, lerks, and gorges, and it can add in an oomph if you can't give all your marines HMGs and shotties. And shotties and HMGs literally tear apart skulks and gorges, and fades really fear a mixture of both weapons.
If you can advance the armory in due time and give your marines HMGs...that's practically game over.
GLs are worthless by their own. However, in a squad of four, 1 gl, 2 hmgs and a shotgun will throw back ANYTHING the Kharaa will try against it. You simply can't beat the marines high end weaponry without a massive imbalance in numbers.
2 hives are required to defeat marines, and even then, it's pretty sketchy.
No, the marines really are overpowered. It's just because of their ranged weaponry and their enhanced mobility in the mid game.
So yes I don't think marines are not overpowered. Which I realize is a double negative. Marines are overpowered a.t.m.
I would like to see the balance tip to the Kharaa so I can get a real challenge as marine. (and to put the fear back <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->, I'm not scared of onii in the new versions)
Since I don't know how to use the quote button correctly, I'll simply say this:
Bluee, I have killed more HMGers than I can count by cloaking around a corner and surprising them, <i>as a skulk!</i>
I'm not a super-skulk. Anyone can use that tactic, even without cloaking.
//edit
The posts Topic starter was more towards combat. in which alians are over powered.
The post I am posting right now. are for NS. Which I belive Rapier is talking about.
//editoff
If you have 5 marines outside your hive with SGs. You are NOT going to be able to take them down Directly....How ever. You can kill them inDirectly.
Your Reaction: HUH? what do you mean.
1st you have the lerk spore. this will have em waste 20-40 rez worth of medpacks. jus to keep them alive. not counting ammo. prob anotehr 20
You SHOULD have 1 fade to go in and harass them @ seige spot, the other fade harasses thier main base. Then have 2 skulks run around and kill thier rez. You have one perma to help heal harassing troops.
So now you have the marines slowly running dry of rez. and what will usualy happen is.
3 guys will be trying to hold the siege spot.
1 guy to get rez
1 in base to guard gainst harasing fade.
(and comm in comm chair)
when the skulks have killed all thier rez nodes. (usualy down to 2 rez nodes for mariens) then you try and go for kils. now you have A skulk, a Lerk, a fade vs 3 sgers. A fade to stop them from moving outa thier base. So now you have them contianed. and the extra skulk? the skulk scounts for that one marine that is not accounted for. if you know where all 5 marines are (6 technincaly) then you can have the perma go around get RTs, and the other skulk to do what ever you feel you need. a 3rd hive maybe?
You see. THis VERY SIMPLE AND COMMENCE SENCE STRAGEY WILL WORK. the marines are NOT over powered. The aliens just need to learn how to thinnk more stragicly. cause you know this is a FPS& <b>RTS</b>
alot of people forget about the REAL TIME STRATEGY PART. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This is why aliens lose more on pubs. because the marines get a comm, and generly the marines listen. thus bring order and strategy more easily to the marines. The marines usualy have more team work than the aleins, and THAT IS WHY THEY WIN MORE ON PUBS. and MAYBE because the game is more balanced at 6vs6 but thats another issue.
Ill even simplify it more.
Aliens are: Expand=>Defend=>Upgrade=>Defend=>Upgrade=>Defend=>Repeat.
This is the best root strategy to aliens I have found.
Marines are expand=>Attack=>Upgrade=>Attack=>Upgrade=>Attack=>Repeat.
Educated in Music? then read the following. if not. skip.
//Music & NS
As you can see the basics of NS are based around a 6/4 beat cycle. If you watch most games GOOD games. This is evedent. The team that keeps thier beat the Fastest,Strongest,And Constant. Will usualy Win. I dont want to get to much into further detail, I may just make a nother post based around music-strategy-theory.
And remeber this is still theory, this is just based on observations about the game that I have seens and noted. Im still making observation of music-battle-theory but not sure exactly.
//Music & NS off.
Try the the basics of it.