Do You Approve Of Comm Chair Blocking?

Faskalia · September 2004

@ Nadagast

usefull scripts for hl and hl related mods: DOD-kar98 fast reload(switches from k98 to pistol and back to k98, which is quicker than waiting for the new bullet to be chambered) Any MOD-autosensivity(on drawing a certain weapon your sens is set to a desired value) SI-Ammo saver(when carrying an xperimental weapon of you enemy it prevents you from firing the last shot, thus it can always be given to your admin) Any MOD-hd_fastswitch 1 (it is not active by default and you need the console to activate it so technically its a script) Any MOD-fastturn(you press a button and do an 180 instantly) Any MOD-antiafk (I usally need more than 180 sec on the toillet so this little script lets me jump once every 10 sec.) Any bhop MOD-autojump(on holding a button the jump command is executed every tick) Any MOD-binding certain weapons to scpecific keys.(bind the gauss/tau to q and the rpg to e, allows for quick gauss jump and rocket them from above action)
FA-autobipod(bipoding in FA is sometimes a little tricky this script sends the bipod command every tick as long as i hold a spec. button) Any MOD having more than the default 2 buttons performing the same action.(Jump on wheelup/down and space)

There are lots of them out there. None of them will improve you skill. But they make gaming easier, giving you a small advantage over ofters. Some people consider them as cheats. Hell, then my mouse must also be a cheat, cause i modified its sensivity.

edit*misspelled Nadagast*

crisano · September 2004

NukeAJS:

Here's another example of marines using something which wasn't it's primary purpose. Mine ladders, sometimes commander drops an experienced marine a pack of mines so he can build a mine ladder into a vent to kill DCs that aliens have hidden there, is that an exploit too? I mean, mines were meant to be placed on surfaces so it can deter aliens, not made into a ladder to reach vents that marines normally can't reach.

A commander can drop an armory could be dropped in front of the vent at Acidic (ns_tanith) that leads to fusion or sat comm hive so that marines can be boosted in without help. Is that also an exploit? Armories weren't meant to act as a stepping stone to a higher unreachable location, but it's allowed.

I'm not arguing about the Dev's ruling, they made a ruling and we have to follow it. But I'm saying that just because of a commander's ingenuity that gives him a boost in strategy doesn't make it an exploit. It's just that people who res-**** into an onos suddenly die from a viable strategy feel they were cheated and began to whine. Then others joined in on the whining and things changed. It's not like the commander dropped the structure ON the Onos, causing him to be stuck and unable to move, the Onos can still jump over the structure if he didn't panic. With a lerk giving him umbra, he'd have plenty of time or skulks covering his retreat. It's happened to me quite often in scrims, especially the hallways outside of sat comm on ns_tanith or the hallway outside of port engine hive on ns_nancy, but guess what, you either adapt and survive or die.

t20 · September 2004

The only thing that should be disallowed is cc blocking vents or small corridors(think the one outside port engine on ns_nancy or the small ones leading to marine start on ns_tanith). Even then I'm only against it if it's a cc.

Aslong as the onos can jump over it or actually get around it I have no problem with it. Only problem is blocking a small corridor where an onos can't actually jump over a cc. It's lame sure, but why shouldn't a comm be allowed to use his head?

Nadagast · September 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Faskalia @ Sep 23 2004, 12:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> @ Nadagast

usefull scripts for hl and hl related mods: DOD-kar98 fast reload(switches from k98 to pistol and back to k98, which is quicker than waiting for the new bullet to be chambered) Any MOD-autosensivity(on drawing a certain weapon your sens is set to a desired value) SI-Ammo saver(when carrying an xperimental weapon of you enemy it prevents you from firing the last shot, thus it can always be given to your admin) Any MOD-hd_fastswitch 1 (it is not active by default and you need the console to activate it so technically its a script) Any MOD-fastturn(you press a button and do an 180 instantly) Any MOD-antiafk (I usally need more than 180 sec on the toillet so this little script lets me jump once every 10 sec.) Any bhop MOD-autojump(on holding a button the jump command is executed every tick) Any MOD-binding certain weapons to scpecific keys.(bind the gauss/tau to q and the rpg to e, allows for quick gauss jump and rocket them from above action)
FA-autobipod(bipoding in FA is sometimes a little tricky this script sends the bipod command every tick as long as i hold a spec. button) Any MOD having more than the default 2 buttons performing the same action.(Jump on wheelup/down and space)

There are lots of them out there. None of them will improve you skill. But they make gaming easier, giving you a small advantage over ofters. Some people consider them as cheats. Hell, then my mouse must also be a cheat, cause i modified its sensivity.

edit*misspelled Nadagast*  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
DoD script... you can just press Q, Q can't you.. I don't really see an advantadge here...

Autosensitivity? That will only make your aim worse. It's best to keep one sensitivity for games.

Ammo Saver? I don't see how this script could exist. Unless SI has some special commands, there is no way for a script to find out how many bullets you have or which bullet is the last one so I don't think this is even possible to script.

hud_fastswitch 1 is a clientside variable and is no more 'abusive' than setting your rate. It's not a script, it's a cvar.

fastturn sucks. Sorry but it's much better to use a quick flick of the mouse, it doesn't disorient you.

anti-afk... First of all I don't see how this script could work unless you have a buttload of waits in it, in which case you'd have to estimate how long you'd be gone for or just wait for the script to stop running when you get back. Second... how could this be considered unfair at all? OOH YOU GET TO KEEP YOUR SLOT AFTER BEING AFK FOR 180 SECONDS U CHEATER>

_special is disabled in NS, 3jump is better in TFC, and I'm pretty sure _special is disabled in CS too (not that you can really bhop anyway). And you can't bhop in DoD...

autobipod... no idea I don't play FA

Uhm I wouldn't say that having +jump bound to space, mwheel down and up is unfair... at all.

You need to learn how to script if you don't because at least 2 of these scripts would either be so impractical that they would be worthless or not possible to script.

DC_Darkling · September 2004

agree with crisano, but like I said. I exepted the loss of this strategy and moved on.

Faskalia · September 2004

@ Nadagast

These were just examples of scripts i have used (some of them only once)
But the autobipod is really usefull and i am still using it. Same for 180 turn, DoD weapon change and autojump. As well as of course binding the uber weapons and say scripts to certain keys.

BTW you are right autosens was maybe the worst script i ever wrote.

But as we agree in the fact that scripts dont improve your skill, i consider this matter settled. Please correct when i am wrong.

Back to topic: I used CC blocking today as a long term solution in ns_siege007 and it enshured our victory. Hence i am waiting for the devs to remove it.

p.s. i remeber one think from quake3 though, there was a command which integrated health/armor indicators into a certain x-hair. I used it.

Necrosis · September 2004

Ok, lets run through this from my last post.

Nad -

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I don't really have an opinion on CC blocking but the devs aren't the ones who should be deciding what is legal and what is not. The players themselves should.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Wrong. If you don't happen to LIKE the design concept, then mod your own. Lots of people do it for other games. Want ironsights? Make ironsights v models. Want to replace the Zerg with Aliens? Make a modpack. The design concept for NS doesn't appear to involve exploitative use of structures. If you don't like that then make your own mod to get around it, and run it on your own server. Have fun with that.

Saying that its not the devs place to decide on the concept is sort of like barging into the Starcraft forums a decade ago and screaming that Zerg should look like Aliens, Terrans should look like Colonial Marines, and Protoss should be Predators. Some people would agree, some would disagree, but the game wouldn't be changed because its not in the SC design concept.

You could either accept that with maturity...... or throw a hissy fit. I'm not fussed about which path people choose, as long as they do it quietly or in an orderly fashion. The only person who really knows how NS should be played is Flayra. He came up with the concept, he knows what the game should be like. Not you, not me, not anyone else. The dev team have decided its an exploit...... so DRIVE ON. As soon as people start yelling about how they know the design concept BETTER THAN THE PERSON WHO CAME UP WITH IT, thats the moment that the yeller is revealed to be a fool.

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Besides, a lot of the time people on the dev team are retarded. *cue irrelevant "devs are noob" story*
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How charming. There's many a simple retort to that "statement", but the most polite is probably that monkey button pushing ability is completely unrelated to the interpretation of the design concept. The devs shape it, the pts test it. If a dev can't tie his or her own shoelaces but knows the NS concept inside out, then ALL IS WELL. Second, what exactly is the relevance of your little story?

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That's why blockscripts was a bad idea... 99% of the educated community disagrees..
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You are in no position to judge who is educated and who is not. Whatever yardstick we use is completely superficial, and at the end of the day irrelevant. Its probably more accurate to say

"blockscripts was a bad idea..... all my friends disagree with it"

In addition, its a SERVER VARIABLE. Server admins turn it on or off. If you don't like it, don't play on servers with it on. THEY ARE NOT FOR YOU. Make your own server, with every script under the sun, and every exploit imaginable (so long as it doesn't make YOU lose), and I wish you all the best in your endeavour. Call it NS HYPER FIGHTING EDITION, or NS-X, or NS XTREEM CLANNOR PRO, because its too XTREEM for us noobs. Whatever.

Meanwhile the rest of us, the dimensionally transcendent 1% that somehow form the MAJORITY WHO FILL THE SERVERS, we'll be playing Flayra's version of NS on our fav servers, with what OUR SERVER ADMINS have decided to turn on or off.

Educated does not equate to clanner. Some people have been floating around NS for some time and yet don't join clans. They can be just as good a player, they just don't do the clan thing. Again, "education" has sweet fa to do with how the game is to be interpreted and created. People were dropping OC on IPs for a long while, and it was decided that that was NOT how OCs were to be used. This DESIGN decision has absolutely no relation to "education".

These forums are not your personal soapbox for a never ending tirade against pub play. You don't get pub play, fine, don't go on pubs. Pubbers don't get clan play, fine, they don't play on clan servers. Neither pubbers nor clanners should go about saying:

"I'm educated because I know what a mouse button is, and now I'm going to tell you how I would make NS because my knowledge of the mouse button has instinctively made me able to read Flayra's mind as to what is and is not an exploit"

Furthermore, if you don't like the NS.org forums, and how they're swamped with noobs, then GO AWAY. Far away. Yes, we like your input, yes we're sure you have great ideas to pass to the community, but if you hate the forums that much the GO AND MAKE YOUR OWN. Probably to promote your OWN SERVER with blockscripts 0 and running NS-XTREEEM HYPOR FIGHTING.

Spacejesus -

Why server side variable? You can live without CC blocking onos, can't you? I mean, you don't actually rely on CC blocking to shoot them do you? So what are you going to miss? There's no server side switch for wallhacks, why do you think that is? An exploit is an exploit, boohoo if it was the only way someone could kill an onos, but really its all for the best and its how NS is meant to be played, AS DECIDED BY ITS CREATORS. We don't have mpwallhacks 1/0 and then set it to 0 as default, so why make an exception for any other exploit?

If anyone really REALLY needs CC blocking that badly, then why not stick with Beta 5, or if you really need scripts then go back to release 2, while the rest of us keep on with the betas. Thats even more effective than a pointless variable, and also keeps those XTREEM HYPOR FIGHTING players away from the "noobs" who populate the NS.org servers.

I consider that a win win situation.

Discussion of scripts is irrelevant to this topic. Take it elsewhere. Here we're talking about structure blocking.

As to "res hoarding onos" queries..... a res hoard onos is going to have virtually no upgrades, no support, be really easy to kill, and ends up as one alien less who is hoarding for hive. Second, in the time it takes someone to hoard to onos, you're probably facing 2-3 fades, at which point the onos is the least of your worries and only really a mopping up tool. Lets keep it in perspective folks. If you're facing an onos hoarder BEFORE fades then chances are your opponents are poor alien players, and once the onos is killed you'll steamroll a victory.

Nadagast · September 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Sep 23 2004, 04:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> stuff  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
First I'd like you to drop the vet stereotype you're giving me (which is total bs) for the next post or this discussion is over.

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I don't really have an opinion on CC blocking but the devs aren't the ones who should be deciding what is legal and what is not. The players themselves should.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Wrong. If you don't happen to LIKE the design concept, then mod your own. Lots of people do it for other games. Want ironsights? Make ironsights v models. Want to replace the Zerg with Aliens? Make a modpack. The design concept for NS doesn't appear to involve exploitative use of structures. If you don't like that then make your own mod to get around it, and run it on your own server. Have fun with that.

Saying that its not the devs place to decide on the concept is sort of like barging into the Starcraft forums a decade ago and screaming that Zerg should look like Aliens, Terrans should look like Colonial Marines, and Protoss should be Predators. Some people would agree, some would disagree, but the game wouldn't be changed because its not in the SC design concept.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
No I think you're misunderstanding me. I didn't say that the devs CAN'T modify their own game, obviously they can. I was saying that the educated community should decide what is considered 'fair' or 'unfair' (in subjects like bhop, scripts, cc blocking). Think what you want about CC blocking, I'm not arguing for or against or even about CC blocking (I really don't care, it never happens). Of course it's the dev's decision to change something with the game...

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You could either accept that with maturity...... or throw a hissy fit. I'm not fussed about which path people choose, as long as they do it quietly or in an orderly fashion. The only person who really knows how NS should be played is Flayra. He came up with the concept, he knows what the game should be like. Not you, not me, not anyone else. The dev team have decided its an exploit...... so DRIVE ON. As soon as people start yelling about how they know the design concept BETTER THAN THE PERSON WHO CAME UP WITH IT, thats the moment that the yeller is revealed to be a fool.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Actually no... I believe the top NS clans know how NS should be played better than Flayra. He may know how he <b>wants</b> NS to play (his 'vision') but top clans know far more about strategies and tactics currently used in the game. And again I'm not even arguing about CC blocking AS I HAVE NO OPINION ON IT. I thought I made that abundantly clear with my posts? Apparantly not

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Besides, a lot of the time people on the dev team are retarded. *cue irrelevant "devs are noob" story*
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>How charming. There's many a simple retort to that "statement", but the most polite is probably that monkey button pushing ability is completely unrelated to the interpretation of the design concept. The devs shape it, the pts test it. If a dev can't tie his or her own shoelaces but knows the NS concept inside out, then ALL IS WELL. Second, what exactly is the relevance of your little story?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Amazing, why do you turn any one of my arguments into me belittling people's skill? I'm not. Retarded != bad player. Retarded = doesn't know what they are talking about. Ari doesn't. That's what the story was about. If you can't see the significance of the story, you need to either re-read it or go try to bhop above even 400 groundspeed as a gorge. I'm sorry but it's INEXCUSABLE to both be ignorant to how the game works AND be a total **** to someone who (nicely) tries to correct you, especially if you're on the dev team. I'm not sure what you mean with the shoelaces thing... I never said they were dumb outside of the game, I said they don't know what happens inside the game. It wouldn't **** me off nearly as much as it does if ari wasn't such a total douchebag when I tried to correct him.

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That's why blockscripts was a bad idea... 99% of the educated community disagrees..
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

You are in no position to judge who is educated and who is not. Whatever yardstick we use is completely superficial, and at the end of the day irrelevant. Its probably more accurate to say

"blockscripts was a bad idea..... all my friends disagree with it"</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I actually am in a position to judge who is educated or not, I've been playing on the HL engine for 5+ years and I know the scripting language pretty much inside and out. I know what it can do and I know what it can't. I'm sorry but the cold hard truth is that 90% of pubbers (skilled or not) don't know what scripts can and can't do and they will blindly accuse. I can call 90% of the anti-script community uneducated... because it's true. It's obvious if someone is educated or not.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In addition, its a SERVER VARIABLE. Server admins turn it on or off. If you don't like it, don't play on servers with it on. THEY ARE NOT FOR YOU. Make your own server, with every script under the sun, and every exploit imaginable (so long as it doesn't make YOU lose), and I wish you all the best in your endeavour. Call it NS HYPER FIGHTING EDITION, or NS-X, or NS XTREEM CLANNOR PRO, because its too XTREEM for us noobs. Whatever.

Meanwhile the rest of us, the dimensionally transcendent 1% that somehow form the MAJORITY WHO FILL THE SERVERS, we'll be playing Flayra's version of NS on our fav servers, with what OUR SERVER ADMINS have decided to turn on or off.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
COME ON. I never said ANYTHING about clanners being somehow better than pubbers. Don't pull this BS. You can't call me an elitist and bash me like one when I've done nothing remotely close to elitism. This is pretty much like me saying "GO PLAY ON RETARDED NEWBIE SERVER BECAUSE YOU SUCK AT NS LOL". It has no bearing to what you've said or who you are. I'm seriously insulted that you'd pull this bs against me.
Please show me where I act like I'm somehow superior to anyone. Until then, those statements have no meaning at all.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Educated does not equate to clanner. Some people have been floating around NS for some time and yet don't join clans. They can be just as good a player, they just don't do the clan thing. Again, "education" has sweet fa to do with how the game is to be interpreted and created. People were dropping OC on IPs for a long while, and it was decided that that was NOT how OCs were to be used. This DESIGN decision has absolutely no relation to "education".</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I agree that educated doesn't equal clanner, but, let's face some cold hard facts, a majority of educated people are clanners and a minority of pubbers are educated. I know that many people play NS for long periods of time without joining a clan, they may be educated in pub play, but are ignorant to clan play (which is better for balance since both teams use teamwork and you can have relatively even (unstacked) teams). I'd disagree that they can be just as good players. I've never seen a pubber that is nearly as good as the top clanners. Not even close.... There are definately some good (or very good) pubbers, but they are good or very good in terms of pub skill level. Sorry but they don't compete with clanners. You just gain too much experience in a scrim or match for pubbers without that experience to be good. Actually I take that back. I've seen one pubber who could compete at the top levels of clan play (but only as Lerk). Plan9... But he is the one exception, not the rule. I know you'll knock this paragraph as elitist, but it's really not... it's just the truth. I'm speaking from experience pubbing not as an elitist. The OC thing? I'm not really sure what that has to do with anything. That's a developers decision. I wouldn't call it controversial in the least (which is where educated players can make decisions). It was banned from CAL for the entire time it was possible. Again... there was no contesting it being illegal.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>These forums are not your personal soapbox for a never ending tirade against pub play. You don't get pub play, fine, don't go on pubs. Pubbers don't get clan play, fine, they don't play on clan servers. Neither pubbers nor clanners should go about saying:

"I'm educated because I know what a mouse button is, and now I'm going to tell you how I would make NS because my knowledge of the mouse button has instinctively made me able to read Flayra's mind as to what is and is not an exploit"</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I don't have a problem with pub play. I like it. When did I say anything about pub play? The only problem I have is with righteous pubbers who don't really know a thing but they pretend like they do and try to outlaw things that shouldn't be outlawed
Really I don't have a problem at all with pubbers... (Don't let newbies organize was a joke if you didn't get it already)

Educated? I'd like to believe I am. My clan won Season 2 and 3 of CAL (not trying to brag... trying to show I'm educated heh). Does that count for anything? As to knowing what an exploit is, no I can't read Flayra's mind, but I don't have to. The educated community should decide what an exploit is and what isn't. Not Flayra, unless he hardcodes something into the game, in which case, the debate is over. Look, I don't see bhopping as 'legal' because Flayra says so. I see it as legal because it has been deemed by the educated masses that it is a fair and skilled addition to the game. Something like the nail gren exploit or extra pipe exploit (in TFC) is obviously unfair and unskilled, so the educated community deems it so and it's outlawed. In these situations the developer should really follow the community, not the other way around. The educated community knows better than 1 man. Even Flayra... sorry. Rocketjumping and concjumping were 'exploits' in the original TF, and now they are 100% accepted gameplay elements. What if the devs had listened to the idiots whining about it then and removed it? TF/TFC would be a lot more bland.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Furthermore, if you don't like the NS.org forums, and how they're swamped with noobs, then GO AWAY. Far away. Yes, we like your input, yes we're sure you have great ideas to pass to the community, but if you hate the forums that much the GO AND MAKE YOUR OWN. Probably to promote your OWN SERVER with blockscripts 0 and running NS-XTREEEM HYPOR FIGHTING.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Seriously again, you're acting like I'm being elitist when I'm really not. I don't know how to even respond to this, and it's pretty insulting that you'd stoop to things like this.

Basically you need to stop looking at me as a clanner/vet/ahole/elitest/pig and start looking at me as a fellow NS player. Stuff like this:
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Make your own server, with every script under the sun, and every exploit imaginable (so long as it doesn't make YOU lose), and I wish you all the best in your endeavour. Call it NS HYPER FIGHTING EDITION, or NS-X, or NS XTREEM CLANNOR PRO, because its too XTREEM for us noobs.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Is really insulting and doesn't do anyone any good. I never said I was better than anyone or was elitist in any way.

Also for your info, there are a whopping TWO scripts that could be considered unfair. 3jump, which is essentially binding mwheel to +jump, and a pistol script that fires one shot when you click and one when you unclick (only *sometimes* though), which is basically the equivalent of binding mwheel to +attack. Neither will make you a good player and neither will improve your skills. Neither are a reason for someone owning ANYONE. Please reread this paragraph and tell me if you have a problem with it. I'm being totally honest, there are 2 scripts that could possibly be considered unfair, the rest of them (all 1000000000000000000000) are purely cosmetic/customization/convenience.
Exploitive scripts? NOBODY USES THEM, if they even exist. Why would you automatically assume that I love to use exploits to win? Jesus how am I supposed to argue with you civilly when you come out with BS like this? Because I'm a vet I automatically exploit everything and hack and stuff? Ok well if you don't change your tone in your next post I will stereotype you as a horrible newbie pubber who only hits 2% of his bullets and runs straight at marines as a skulk ok? Sound fair? I didn't do that to you, you shouldn't stereotype me either.

Necrosis · September 2004

OK folks, I haven't posted like this since the grand days of Gem and I debating the merits of lerk weaponry. I encourage you to make a scroll bind, or get a big cup of tea and pack of digestives. Now, settle in..

Nad -

I'll actually post your quotes, as opposed to the rather childish "stuff" method. Next time, try FAO: Necrosis or IN RESPONSE TO. Its a bit more polite and mature, you know.

Second, I'm not stereotyping anyone, I'm merely saying if you don't like the forums, then leave. If you don't like pub play, don't play pub servers. If you don't like blockscripts 1, then go find a server with blockscripts 0. If you dont like B5, try an earlier beta or all the way back to 2.0

Thats the most mature and calm way of dealing with the problem, as opposed to a tirade with such comments as

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
the worst thing to happen to NS was these forums... don't give newbies a place to organize.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

.. or indeed endless references to this mystical monkey button pushing "skill", or how the dev team know nothing about the concept of NS. Such comments have no place in this thread, or indeed in the forums.

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I was saying that the educated community should decide what is considered 'fair' or 'unfair' (in subjects like bhop, scripts, cc blocking).
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Educated by whom? By whose measurements? Would you not agree that the DEV TEAM ALONE are educated in what NS is meant to be? The people who speak to Flayra, learn what he thinks of NS, then try to implement it? Wouldn't they know better than someone who just plays the game? You could play NS for 20 years, be the top player in the world, yet still have absolutely no idea what direction the dev team want NS to go in. So to be honest you're really just digging a big hole for yourself by saying that the concept of NS should sit in the hands of "educated" button pushers instead of people in touch with the game's creator.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I believe the top NS clans know how NS should be played better than Flayra. He may know how he wants NS to play (his 'vision') but top clans know far more about strategies and tactics currently used in the game.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

His "vision" of NS overrides how clans/pubs think NS SHOULD be played. If you don't like it, don't play it. I don't buy games I hate and then go to their forums to complain about how they need more exploits. I just don't buy the game, that way the world's a better place and I'm not trolling some poor community website. In a similar vein, if you don't like the concept of NS... shouldn't you consider modding your own variant, or accept that your concept of NS was the wrong one and then continue playing with the rest of us?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
if ari wasn't such a total douchebag when I tried to correct him
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I'm not doing the Mod's job here, but I draw your attention to the forum rules, an important one being that the forums are not your personal playground to conduct flame wars on people you don't like. The story was irrelevant to the topic and now you're continuing to sink the boot into someone you've decided you don't like. Please take it to a PM and thrash it out with them in private. Its not needed on the forums. Thanks.

More to the point, the one you missed - "skill", or knowledge of the top speed of a backwards bhop strafing unladen carapace lerk, or the capital of Assyria, have nothing to do with knowledge of the NS design concept. I doubt most of the dev team know or actually care about such details. And indeed why should they have to when such things can be broken down into "the gorge moves too slow. Lets speed it up". NS is about the NS concept, as envisaged by Flayra, and how to implement it in the HL engine. As soon as you change that definition you're going to encounter problems.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I actually am in a position to judge who is educated or not, I've been playing on the HL engine for 5+ years and I know the scripting language pretty much inside and out.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

No, you're in no position to judge who is educated on the NS concept. Your statistics are meaningless. Yes, its obvious who is "educated" and who is not. An educated person knows that NS should play according to how Flayra decides it should be played. They accept this when they play the game, Natural Selection, as envisaged by Charlie "Flayra" Cleveland. NOT as envisaged by the Illuminati, xXx||xXxBuNnYsLaYeR, Necrosis, Nadagast, or the Pope.

If you don't like the concept, you don't buy the game. If its free, you just don't download it. Otherwise you may as well buy some nails and hammer them into your head, it'll be a lot more fun.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Please show me where I act like I'm somehow superior to anyone
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I actually am in a position to judge who is educated or not, I've been playing on the HL engine for 5+ years and I know the scripting language pretty much inside and out.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Retarded = doesn't know what they are talking about. Ari doesn't.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I never said ANYTHING about clanners being somehow better than pubbers. Don't pull this BS. You can't call me an elitist and bash me like one when I've done nothing remotely close to elitism.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
a majority of educated people are clanners and a minority of pubbers are educated.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I know you'll knock this paragraph as elitist, but it's really not... it's just the truth.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Its really not... but it is. You are digging your own grave here.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
they may be educated in pub play, but are ignorant to clan play (which is better for balance since both teams use teamwork and you can have relatively even (unstacked) teams).
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

From the SAME post -

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
When did I say anything about pub play?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
(Don't let newbies organize was a joke if you didn't get it already)
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Oh yes, it was a joke, it was a good dig at the newbies, those underlings who have no place on the forums. I don't think anyone's laughing though.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
The educated community should decide what an exploit is and what isn't. Not Flayra, unless he hardcodes something into the game, in which case, the debate is over. Look, I don't see bhopping as 'legal' because Flayra says so.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Indiana, let it GO. Indisputable fact number one, FLAYRA IS NS. The devs decide what they consider to be an exploit, what they consider to be an abuse of the game concept. Not us. "Fair" and "skilled" does not always have a place in what is an exploit and what is not.

I am not joking, I hand this advice to every game player - if you don't like the game, don't play it. If you don't like the community, start your own. If you don't like the server rules, run your own. I like all weapons, lifecycle, 5 kills = queen, 2 exosuit, low value aliens, high value preds games of AvP2. I do not like the "feel" of the forumgoing AvP community. Hence I'm not in AvP forums, and when I get the chance yes I do run a LAN game of AvP2 according to my rules.

This keeps me happy, and means I am not a pain to the community. Yes, people are entitled to their opinions but holy hell if you can fix it by something as easy as starting your own server then why rush to the forums to vent spleen?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Why would you automatically assume that I love to use exploits to win?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I said this.... where?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I will stereotype you as a horrible newbie pubber who only hits 2% of his bullets and runs straight at marines as a skulk ok? Sound fair?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I honestly do not care as to how I'm labeled. The opinion of a faceless online entity really does not enter into my life. Lets keep this in perspective shall we? Second, I'm not hurling insults, you should really take time to read these posts with a cup of tea and some nice Mr Kipling treats.

If all else, ask yourself this question - If NS was on the shop shelf right now, release version, with no CC blocks and no scripts, WOULD YOU BUY IT? If not, then to be honest I think one should seriously reconsider their place in this community. Half of these threads arise from the fact that we are playing a free beta. If we HAD to pay money, a lot of us would not be here. A lot of us would like bits of the concept, but not some of the rules. Some of us would not buy it.

However, this game is free. Everyone downloads it, everyone thinks they own it, everyone thinks they know the game concept better than its own creator. I can sympathise because I have the same problem when it comes to Star Wars films. But in the final analysis none of us have earned the right to tell the person who made the game what an exploit is or is not. We're playing an unfinished buggy game thats changed a lot even from its initial design concept - NONE of us can say that we know what NS is meant to be. We can say what we'd LIKE it to be, but thats are far as it goes folks.

CC blocking, like OCs on IPs, is considered an EXPLOIT, and like OCs on IPs there is NO REASON for it to require a server side variable.

And finally

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Do You Approve Of Comm Chair Blocking?, AKA Alamo walling.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

If anyone is in any doubt as to what this topic means, please ask someone else to clarify it for you before you post here. ESPECIALLY if your comment runs to the line of "I don't really care, but here's a two hour post for you to read instead of one simple line".

Well, I'm off to play Galactic Conquest. I'll be the f'er in the turbolaser on DSI who's shooting you.

Woah, 1755 words. GG university education.

Nadagast · September 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Sep 24 2004, 11:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I'll actually post your quotes, as opposed to the rather childish "stuff" method. Next time, try FAO: Necrosis or IN RESPONSE TO. Its a bit more polite and mature, you know. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Wow the only reason I did that was because I hit the 'quote' button to reply, and it had your entire post in the lower area. After I Cut and Pasted it into the top window, there was nothing left... and I just put stuff there. are you seriously saying that that was a bad or childish thing to do? Amazing...

You need to drop the snobby attitude you have against me just because I'm a clanner too. See the top of my post and the quote. You see vets in a bad light and it gives you reason to LOOK FOR FLAWS, ANYTHING you can find. Just to bash me, when any honest unbiased person would see that I did nothing wrong.

One example: Necrosis said:
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Make your own server, with every script under the sun, and every exploit imaginable (so long as it doesn't make YOU lose),</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
To which I replied:
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Why would you automatically assume that I love to use exploits to win?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
You replied:
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I said this.... where?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

ok?

After reading through the top half of your post, I see that you conveniently quote sentence by sentence. Anyone's argument looks weak if you look at it sentence by sentence. I'm not going to respond to BS like that. I didn't quote your stuff one line at a time, ignoring any evidence or good points you made, I took your whole argument in, so don't do it to me. Until you actually respond to a paragraph or two at a time I will not be replying...
The conversation is over unless you drop your attitude. It's like trying to educate anti-scripters... they are so convinced of their viewpoint, and they don't realize it, and they just refuse to listen to reason/logic/the other side of the argument.

SpaceJesus · September 2004

closed-minded people are what's dragging NS down.

td_alakad · September 2004

Admitedly, I haven't read every post in here, because a lot of them seem to be repeating the previous posts. I read about 4 or 5 pages, so if somebody has already mentioned this don't get mad at me!

CC blocking is a great, innovative use of the Comm Chair. Sure, the CC isn't supposed to be used like that, but then again dynamite was never intended to be used in warfare, it was invented to help in blasting rocks away more safely. In world war 2, shovels were used as weapons for decapitating people. Before the war for American Independence, wars were always fought on an open field like a game of chess, now they're fought guerilla style. Before Hitler, war had to be officially declared before you invaded. Now there's the Blitzkreig.

My point is, that war has no boundaries. Inovation is key to survival. Just because something isn't supposed to be used in a certain way, if it works... <b>USE IT</b>. It may seem a waste of res to some people, but if killing a rampaging onos will decide victory for your team, then wasting 30 res isn't a very high price for it, is it? If it fails, it fails. It was worth a shot, you're going to lose anyway. Humanity is known for using sneaky, underhanded and downright unfair tricks to win. That's war for you.

Faskalia · September 2004

It's "Blitzkrieg", sorry but some words change sense, when written wrong. Thus this small hint. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' />

Necrosis · September 2004

Probably another long post, apologies in advance for the skim readers.

Alakad-

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Sure, the CC isn't supposed to be used like that, but then again dynamite was never intended to be used in warfare
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

The difference is the maker of dynamite didn't have the option of removing it from history. Before drawing an analogy, just remember that the dev team, the guys who collectively decide what NS is all about, the people who speak to the guy who created the NS concept, its these people who decide how something should be used or not used. Secondly, in retort to your poorly based analogy, you'll also notice that people using high explosive without permission are in general arrested and ostracised from the community at large.

However, the take home message is this - the dev team consider certain applications of CC blocking to be an exploit. If you agree, cool, if you disagree, tough, but the fact of the matter is that ultimately the "proper use" of features is something only the game's creators can decide upon.

Nad-

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Wow the only reason I did that was because I hit the 'quote' button to reply, and it had your entire post in the lower area. After I Cut and Pasted it into the top window, there was nothing left...
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I would just c&p stuff again, mostly because I'm taking my time casually posting. Or say "In response to Necrosis". I would not deliberately type in "stuff", because it implies one either did not read or did not care about the content. Its also hypocritical if in the same breath one is also asking for respect in return. Furthermore, since your fingers went ahead and typed the word "stuff", I'd have to say you did it pretty consciously.

Debate is not about "You said stuff, I'm going to blame those anti scripters, newbs, people who don't think like me, and that one dev I don't like. Now its your turn to ignore everything I say and spout back to me". Its about careful consideration of points one by one, and then systematically issuing retorts.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
You need to drop the snobby attitude you have against me just because I'm a clanner too.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Not really, I think its more a case of people learning to look past the pub and clan "labels". Also it helps if you don't constantly refer to "those pubbers", "anti-scripters", etc, because you're only polarising yourself. You will note I don't actually attack any of the major "factions", and keep my harsher words for people who think spending too much time playing a game somehow gives them the right to tell its creator what his structures are meant to be used for.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Just to bash me, when any honest unbiased person would see that I did nothing wrong.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I refer any and all third party readers to the extensive list of contradictory quotes, sometimes even occuring within the same post. GG. You asked for examples of when you were elitist, I gave them to you. Its a bit late to cry foul now.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Make your own server, with every script under the sun, and every exploit imaginable (so long as it doesn't make YOU lose),

Why would you automatically assume that I love to use exploits to win?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Big cookies for anyone who, with english as their first and native language, can tell me where "make your own server with your own rules" suddenly becomes "You assume I love to use exploits to win". Seriously folks, I'm not making this up.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I see that you conveniently quote sentence by sentence.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Convenient because it addresses queries point by point.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Anyone's argument looks weak if you look at it sentence by sentence.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Do it with mine then. Dissect, line by line, my comments about how the game's creator ultimately knows more about the concept than any other person. Because no matter how you slice it, the fact remains its Flayra's game. You either like that fact, or you don't.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I'm not going to respond to BS like that... The conversation is over unless you drop your attitude.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I again invite any and all third party readers to tell me where I used the phrase BS, and also to explain how a person can call another persons pov BS and in the same breath demand respect and that they drop the attitude.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
It's like trying to educate anti-scripters... they are so convinced of their viewpoint, and they don't realize it, and they just refuse to listen to reason/logic/the other side of the argument.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I've countered your "argument" point by point, and now you're effectively quitting the server with a poor attempt at what I could only imagine to be an insult about anti scripters.......... again a topic thats completely irrelevant to CC blocking. Speaking of irrelevancies, I even countered your flames towards some unlucky dev. I note you've left these out of your departing comment, without so much as an apology to the other guy for flaming them right in the middle of a hot topic.

On the irrelevant script note..... why educate anti scripters if you're only missing out on 2 scripts? I mean its not like you actually needed them.. is it?

I, personally, find it hilarious that when someone's argument is systematically broken into little pieces they suddenly find an excuse to leave, or invent insults, claim the other person is ignorant, toss out as many labels as possible hoping one sticks, before sweeping out of the room in a grandiose manner.

I believe parents call it the terrible twos.

On topic, I'm more than happy to hear people's points of view, but again I ask you to consider who knows more about the NS concept, how things are MEANT to be used, etc - is it you, or is it Flayra and the devs?

WarningForever · September 2004

Nadagast...

... I'll just say this...

Don't make generalizations about people- Saying that pubbers, newbies, and anti-scripters are all lesser than you isn't helping you at all. It's just making you look like an ****.

Nadagast · September 2004

I give up... there is just no point. Necrosis you're so absolutely polarized towards the pubber/"Flayra is God" mentality that it's like trying to convert a cult member. I could state that the places where you point out a contradiction, there really isn't any, but it wouldn't do any good would it? It's all about your point of view and there's no changing that. Obviously Flayra knows best! HE MADE NS OMG. In Flayra We Trust.

What a joke. Think for yourself. Be independent...

Nadagast · September 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Theki11er @ Sep 24 2004, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Nadagast...

... I'll just say this...

Don't make generalizations about people- Saying that pubbers, newbies, and anti-scripters are all lesser than you isn't helping you at all. It's just making you look like an ****. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I never said any of those things (or I didn't try to...). I said that on the whole, pubbers can't compete with top clanners (never said I TOTALLY ROXOR JOO or that I'm even good), and that 90% of anti-scripters (at least that I've seen) are uneducated as to what scripts can and can't do. I try to go out of my way to not brag or call myself superior to anyone... it's hard though when Necrosis automatically has prejudice against me just because I'm in a clan.

If you disagree with me about the skill level of top pubbers vs top clanners, I'm open to being proven wrong. I'd love to see a 6v6 game of your favorite (or best) pubbers vs Terror or Blackmarket. Even 8v6 I still think that the clans would crush them but, please, like I said, prove me wrong. I'm talking out of my own personal experience, I'm not blindly saying ALL CLANNERS ARE BETTER THAN PUBBERS, because that's just not true... Besides there is nothing wrong with getting 2-0d by T or bm... they're both very good clans.

Also, when you say "just make your own server or play on servers with mp_bs 0", that's wrong because I shouldn't have to... There's nothing abusive about scripts at all, people are just uneducated to what they do and this ignorance leads to mp_bs 1... Hey if you want a recent example, just a few weeks ago, NSA totally changed it's policy, after being educated they realized scripts weren't abusive at all and those vets aren't actually cheating... They apologized. They did the right thing and I commend them for it. I shouldn't have to choose from 50% of the servers because of ignorance.

Nadagast · September 2004

A final point: Why is it okay for you to hate me because of the yellow tag next to my name, but if I hate you because you DON'T have a yellow tag, I'm an elitist ****? Not that I want to hate pubbers, just pointing out a hypocrisy.

Fin · September 2004

Poor nada. I think thats it for his hope for you pubmasters of the mp_bs 1 servers. His right though, too many people have been listening to the rumours about scripts. Their not bad though. There is not many useful scripts and any script you use make you handicapped to specific patterns, not that its bad that way but its a style of play. On the whole like nada said you split the community up and force people to choice sides and end up hurting yourselves and us. Who ever that maybe.

Keyser · September 2004

Look, Nadagast isn't arguing because he dislikes the game. On the contrary, he argues because he enjoys playing it it. He is arguing that blockscripts will be bad for NS in the long run, not just because he personally dislikes it ingame.

I'd have to agree. If blockscripts were implemented in such a way that would have no affect on the mentality of the average pubber, I could really care less. But blockscripts being implemented creates the illusion for those who play with blockscripts that the servers who have it disables is almost like allowing cheats. Which of course is false.

It allows pubbers to hide behind the fact that scripts are unfair, and likewise create more tension on these boards and in the servers. It limits the productivity of competitive play since players are afraid to join clans because of these stereotypes. Nobody really wins, except unless you enjoy playing on these illusionary blockscript servers.

Please stop accusing Nadagast and other veterans of looking out for personal interests. Removing blockscripts would only allow the game to have a longer lifespan and really make NS more enjoyable for both clanners and pubbers.

Buggy · September 2004

Keyser is correct, matters such as blockscripts and 'official' cc blocking rules should be well left alone by the dev team, because they create wedges in a community.

Some time ago, my usual server was empty so I hopped onto another server, which happened to be the clanserver of a guy I sometimes play/chat with on my regulars. One of the first things he said was "Blockscripts is on Buggeh, so no hacking".

Nice! He believed that a majority of my skill (I can hardly hold my own in clanplay, but I do fairly well in pubs - like hundreds if not thousands of others.) came through scripts. Way to insult an honest player who happens to use a pistol script due to a wrist handicap.

I don't even mind blockscripts. "Bah, bs_1. Have to type +attack and +jump binds." I do mind every random Joe who assumes scripting makes people superior. The fixing of blockscripts just hyped such thoughts.

MrBen · September 2004

I'm hoping flayra's vision of a game included a competitive scene in it. If the devs do want one then they'd do well to listen to what we have to say, if they don't then they're a good job of removing it, i've lost count of the number of players who have quit NS or gone inactive out of boredom with the game and things like this.

I'm sorry to say this necrosis but nadagast is right, this isn't an attack on public players but if you limit yourself to just public play then you limit how far you can develop. If you play on a server with marines who can't aim, walking fades and comms who turret farm every single junction then you'll never learn how to fade properly or that turret farms suck.

Similarly if you post on these forums and read some of the propaganda about scripts and command chair blocking then you'll likely never learn the truth of the matter. Buggeh has already given an example of playing on a server where people thought skill came through scripts, i'm sure everyone pro/anti scripting has seen this opinion expressed once. I get it all the time, even from clanners who thought the only reason we won the match was because of bs_0. Obviously this isn't the case but if you read it time and time again and the only people you see arguing againist it are the evil clanners then obviously you're going to alienate the public sector and so the lies and the false beliefs spread.

A few months ago i regulared on YO clan server and wasn't in a clan, i thought scripts were bad and i thought that i could bhop when i was pressing forward. Despite all this on the server i was one of the best players. I thought i knew all there was to know about NS and i thought i was the dogs bollocks. I'd never seen a good fade or a bunny hopping skulks so how was i to know that i wasn't the creme de la creme. I then joined a clan and in a period of a few small months i've devloped into a player who is 100x better both in terms of skill but also in terms of understanding NS.

If you dig back through my old posts you'll see me argueing that pubbers should balance the game, if i dig back through my old IRC logs you'd see me saying that i thought clanners were nothing special and that i was easily as good as any of them as a public player. I've been where you are nec, i see where you're coming from. The sad truth is that if you stay on a regular server which has a certain level of play be it terrible (surftown) or pretty good (LM) then you can never advance past that level. NS is at it's best in a competitive match, competitive NS forfills flayra's vision of what NS will be, public NS can never do that.

Correct me if i'm wrong but flayra wanted a dynamic, teamwork and strategy intensive game where players have to work closely together and make the most of the different classes and weapons made available to them. Public NS, even on a server like LM, which i will admit has a good level of teamwork (For a pub, it cannot touch on a clan) cannot forfill the vision. Clan play lends itself to much tighter organisation and teamwork. <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><i>*note i didn't say skill, clan doesn't = skill, high level clan = skill though and it's the high level guys who i'm talking about. </i></span>

Flayra may of created the game and may have the overall vision for it but it is the experienced players who play NS to it's full potential who are, in my opinion best suited to make decisions about what is illegal and what isn't. Philo Farnsworth invented the TV, doesn't mean that however many years later he shouldn't lissen to the experts who are familiar with how the TV works in modern times. I'm not saying Flayra shouldn't make changes to <b>his</b> game. I'm a mod developer myself, i'm a level designer on HL:Nightwatch and if it was a multi player mod i'd be sure to listen to the experienced guys to make sure any changes i made would be welcomed and were in the best interets of the game.

I hope this post hasn't offended anyone, it wasn't my intention. I also hope that i didn't derail the thread too much and that what i said was on topic, if it wasn't then, err... i like CC blocking and have no issues as it both as a fade and a comm.

crisano · September 2004

Mr. Ben: Your post in my opinion was superbly written and helped reinforced a lot of the problems that plague NS these days. What you say about Flayra is most likely true and probably is echoed in many of the more experienced players' minds.

Nadagast: I think you should just stop trying to convince people and bring them into the 'light'. The NS scene has pretty much deteriorated to the point of almost no return, mp_blockscripts is probably the stake that was driven into the heart of this separation, helping reinforce the ideas that streamlining your game equates to cheating. I know people say 'oh but it's a serverside option so it isn't like saying blockscripts is cheating' but we all know that having an option like that only reinforces it.

I can't say people calling scriptors hackers and CC blockers exploiters surprise me, I mean when someone gets killed they almost always first look for an excuse to why they were killed. In CS it was 'OMG h4x', now in NS it's 'OMG scripts!' or 'OMG exploit!'. It is understandable since everyone has some pride and ego, it's against human nature to take defeat easily. But people with open minds and a real wish to become better players eventually shrug it off and continue to play against better players to sharpen their skills. The same thing happened to me in 1.04, back when I made the small [NS4Life] club and pubbing constantly on Fist of Ra's beta server. People from sYn like Firewater and TAU like SolarCurve would venture in sometimes and do a pretty good job decimating people. I admit at some time I thought the way some of them aim is almost too amazing to be true but instead of constantly saying 'OMG they hack' I try to play with TAU and sYn more on pubs. Eventually I became a better player.

I hate to use Counter-Strike as an example but it went through a similar phase. There was a time early in Counter-Strike where spamming walls was rare (rifle and deagle bullets go through walls for those of you who don't play counterstrike). At the time it was rarely done and only done by smart players who had a better gaming sense than others. They were quickly shouted at as wallhackers and whatnot when using sound by itself is enough. But then the better well known clans begin to use the same strategy, spamming specific spots and guess what, it's constantly used in gameplay now for CS. There are selected servers where the playing ability isn't as high as the norm, but they know enough that rifle spamming is a tactic. CS continues to evolve with new tactics and tricks, boost planting was another in the older days, making it inaccessable to defuse sometimes if only 1 CT is left. But it wasn't declared an exploit, just a smart play!

For NS to become better and more evolved, it has to keep changing with new tactics and strategy. You can keep clinigng to the old barebone game where things were explored enough due to people still learning to play the game. Change is usually for the good, creating more a more intense gaming atmosphere.

Alkiller · September 2004

/me tries to get back on topic

CC block is lame (because it works sometimes) so I don't like it, but I'll live with it. It's a good strat if you can pull it off (drop that CC at the perfect time etc. If you drop it say, 5 seconds before the fade tries to leave, he's obviously going to dodge it, but drop it at that exact moment, and bam, he's gotta struggle to get out.)

Nadagast · September 2004

nice posts <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

TheAdj · September 2004

Nice for now, the swarm will arrive shortly...

DC_Darkling · September 2004

god..

let me jsut end this debate with a few words...

ok..ok.. not end, but I can try.

Everyone saying flayra is the only one who knows how NS should be is RIGHT. And why?

This is a BETA version ppl. BETA as in TEST. The fact that he allows the COMMUNITY to test does not make it less a testversion. We can like or dislike, but if he sees something wrong in his own testversion while testing, or by reports, then of course he is right to fix it cause.. thats why its a BETA version. Second the versions says3. That means 3rd isue of NS. I think versions are something of a gamma version of the game. A even bigger test. UNTILL the damn game is named only "Natural Selection" we are ALL participating in a game IN TESTING. As in getting fixed.

This is seen as a fix, we have no right to disagree if the devs plug a bug. Its there JOB.

Thats it. End of rant.

Necrosis · September 2004

Not counting this opening, 2,291 words. I have replied to Nadagast, Alpha, Keyser, Buggy, and Mr. Ben. Anyone else is welcome to read but it WILL take you a while. I put everyone's name at the top so that you guys can skimread right to it if you need to.

Get your tea and bakewells ready. I can wait.

Ready? Lets go!

Nad -

Why do you keep dodging the issue here? Fact remains that its Flayra's game, not yours. If you don't like that fact, leave. Go away. Find somewhere else where you enjoy the designers concept of the game.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Necrosis you're so absolutely polarized towards the pubber/"Flayra is God" mentality that it's like trying to convert a cult member.
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You accept certain things when you sign on for this. When you join a forum you accept that the forum mods, NOT YOU, decide what is ok and what is not. If you disagree, then you get banned. Or you do the smart thing and don't sign up. You are opting in to play an open beta created by some other guy and his hand picked team of workers. You can either agree to that, and play, or make long contradictory posts about how you know the game concept better.

Every forum has its own supply of fools who think they know better than the mods, and subsequently the mods ban them for breaking the rules. Sadly there's no way to remove fools from playing NS and continually hollering about how they know better than the game's creator.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I could state that the places where you point out a contradiction, there really isn't any, but it wouldn't do any good would it?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Thats not even english. Or alternatively you've just said that there's no point pointing out my contradictions because there are none. Funny, I'd imagine that makes my argument a bit more understandable.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I try to go out of my way to not brag or call myself superior to anyone... it's hard though when Necrosis automatically has prejudice against me just because I'm in a clan.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

But thats what you're doing........ and where did I say anything about YOU being a clanner or not?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
when you say "just make your own server or play on servers with mp_bs 0", that's wrong because I shouldn't have to
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I shouldn't have to work for a living, but I do it. I shouldn't have to grow old and die, but I have to. Whats the alternative, being a tramp or being a immature 50 yr old who wets the bed just because he shouldn't have to walk to the bathroom? Get a grip on priorities here, its a lot easier and community conscious for you to start your own server without anything you don't like.

What makes you so special that you shouldn't have to run your own server to enjoy the game as you see fit?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Why is it okay for you to hate me because of the yellow tag next to my name, but if I hate you because you DON'T have a yellow tag, I'm an elitist ****?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Why bring up icons? Who has mentioned hatred? Why are you inventing your own argument as you go along?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Not that I want to hate pubbers, just pointing out a hypocrisy.
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Which, for those of us who've learned the english language, is accurately interpreted as open admittance to hatred of pubbers. Not that you want to, of course, but you have to?

This is getting rather ridiculous, you're really not doing your "case" any good.

But wait, lets look back........ you don't care about CC blocking, and you're still in this topic, despite "threatening" to leave, and you're hammering on about vets and scripts? This is a topic about CC blocking, not about "what I think NS should be like, because I know better than the guys who are making the game."

Alpha -

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
On the whole like nada said you split the community up and force people to choice sides and end up hurting yourselves and us
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Who's splitting the community? Who is polarising people as "uneducated" and "educated" hmm? As I see it, blockscripts is no more serious than game modes. I mean, why start a ruck over how Team FFA is better than Objective gameplay? People just keep to their own servers, and noone has trouble. Why then do people kick up a stink, in a CC BLOCKING THREAD, about scripts?

People who do that, they are the people who are attempting to split the community.. not people who are saying "each to their own". Ask yourself this, is it better FOR THE COMMUNITY if people play on servers they don't like, whining at the other players, admins, etc, and then going onto the forums to complain about how they didn't like the gameplay on this on server

OR

People play on the servers they like, making their own if they have to, and use the forums to shoot the breeze and discuss the game, as opposed to off topic rants in the wrong thread about people's "skill" and "education"?

Keyser-

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
But blockscripts being implemented creates the illusion for those who play with blockscripts that the servers who have it disables is almost like allowing cheats.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Why does it create this illusion? Who says? And ultimately, if it keeps "uneducated and low "skill" players off the server, then isnt it a good thing? Doesn't it prevent fights over scripting? Sounds like a good idea to me. And in the final analysis, why talk about scripts in a CC BLOCKING THREAD.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Please stop accusing Nadagast and other veterans of looking out for personal interests
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Please feel free to point out these "accusations" that I have made? The only comments I make refer to PERSONAL PREFERENCE. I gave a clear example of an AvP2 server that I run to my complete satisfaction. Because I have lifecycle 1 does not mean I rag on people with lifecycle 0. I say that its different strokes for different folks. Likewise, if a person does not like how the NS dev team are making the game then they can simply leave and find a game more to their taste.

Buggy

Whats the point of your story in reference to CC blocking? Do we complain about having to reload guns? Do we complain about not being able to block IPs with chambers? Do we complain about having to actually aim at the enemy? No, of course we don't, because these things are part of the game. CCs weren't meant to be used for lifeform blocking, its a simple fact. If someone entered the forum and said that adding reloading to the game was bad, what would you say then? And please ultimately remember that the core concept of NS is knowledge that belongs only to its creator, not you, not me, not anyone else. If the guy who makes the game wants to implement something then thats his job. If the game had been released on the shop shelves with CC blocking disabled would you have bought it? After buying it, would you go onto the game's forum and say that the CC should be allowed to block lifeforms? Or would you have accepted it as part of the game and moved on?

On another note, you story is wide open to interpretation-

One group would say he was accusing you of hacking.

Another would say that as it was a clan server he was sharing a joke about the "uneducated" view of scripts

Still another group would say he was giving you a friendly ribbing.

Interpretation is so important you know.

Ben -

People drop out of a game if they don't like it. I might not enjoy Rome Total War, but at the same time that doesn't mean I fill its forums with requests for it to be an FPS in space with aliens and humans. Thats an extreme example, but it holds true. The Total War people would say "erm Necro, yknow this is a pure rts set in Roman times". Now, I could either say "oh, my bad, wrong game, I'll go play NS" or I could OT every topic on their forum with "ogm this should be FPS shooter" and how the devs know nothing because I've played blah blah blah.

This is a free game. Its work in progress. It will change as time goes on. People who don't like it will leave, people who do will stay. People who joined at the start and enjoyed the 1.04 concept might not be here at the final release. Some will. We can't say that people leaving automatically equates that the game is going the wrong way. Its going a different way. If we'd bought this as a release title then in all likelihood CC blocking would come fully implemented, and noone would be needlessly complaining.

Buggeh has given an example which you have chosen to interpret as accusations of hacking. I could give you examples of how on servers I've got to the top of the scoreboard and someone says "turn off the hacks Necro" and we all laugh about it.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I've been where you are nec, i see where you're coming from
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No I'm afraid you don't. I dont say pubbers should balance the game, or dictate features. I don't think I'm better than other players, I have seen bhop skulks, I don't think I can bhop while pushing forward. I say people should stick to their own servers, and the dev team decide what they think is the concept of NS. Thats their job, DEVELOPING THE NS CONCEPT. Again, if someone disagrees with the concept then they are only wasting their time and ours by keeping themselves involved in the game.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
flayra wanted a dynamic, teamwork and strategy intensive game where players have to work closely together and make the most of the different classes and weapons made available to them.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Who can tell? I could say "Flayra wanted an FPS" and it could be just as accurate and vague. "Flayra wanted an FPS" also does not take into account bhopping, scripting, wallhacking, god mode, disco mode, custom models, or infinite ammo. For your personal perusal <a href='http://overmind.org/strathl/' target='_blank'>What looks to be the original NS concept stuff</a>.

Tell me how much that matches up to the NS we're playing now. We know nothing but the vaguest details of NS. CC blocking being IN or OUT still doesn't change YOUR definition, by the way.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Philo Farnsworth invented the TV, doesn't mean that however many years later he shouldn't lissen to the experts who are familiar with how the TV works in modern times.
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Flayra didn't invent half life. To run with your analogy, its much like a tv show. Flay makes the show, he makes it how he likes it, and we the viewers watch. Some of us will like whay Flay gives us, yay. Some of us wont. Some of us shouldn't be watching the show at all, because we hate his shows. Some of us will like bits of it, and say "but its not for me". Some of us will like bits of it, then bombard Flay with endless letters and campaigns about "bring back Dr. Ramirez". Who should control it?

You're a smart man Ben so I don't mean to be ragging on ya if it seems that way, its just you're the sixth or so post in a row and I'm on the whole "if you don't like it, its not for you" kick. Sorry!

Actually I'll go one better. Ben, you're totally right in that at some point skilled players need to be involved in the proceedings, but I see CC blocking as a fundamental part of NS in that it was NOT meant to be there, it was not meant to be exploited as it has been on a minority of servers. We can still block corridors, we just can't do the more exploity stuff of dropping structures on people's heads (or near enough to it). Player feedback has its place but in this case its a fundamental concept issue and the devs really don't seem to like it. Remember, the devs could have said "we think CC blocking is ok, you should all learn to live with it". They haven't. Whether the community agrees or disagrees is another thing entirely.

You're a level designer, so the only equivalent I could say is that what if you made a level with a set theme, then a boatload of people say that they want it to be an oil rig, lots of outdoor stuff, instead of the underground sub pen facility you chose. You'd probably try to explain that the map is an underground pen, not an oil rig, and that sorry you're not changing it. CC blocking is an NS concept, its not really a case of "should I keep this crate here or not". At least thats my pov on it. Good players can be used to decide on weapon strengths, rates of fire, armour, etc, but only so long as it doesn't oppose the core vision of the game. I hope I'm explaining myself well to you, because you've a valid argument and I really wish I could have time to counter it in full.

Right, I don't think there's anything really left to retort to, sorry for the huge post but I keep going as long as my chai is beside me. As a parting shot to anyone posting after me, please for the love of bunnies keep this on topic, if we want to shoot the breeze of "devs v players on concept issues" then its new topic time. If anyone wants to debate scripts, go off to a scripts topic and yok it up there. This is a CC block thread that is tangentially connected to "concept disagreements", so lets hold it together a bit longer mm?

Nadagast · September 2004

Like I said I'm not replying to you until you quote me paragraphs at a time. There's no point. Picking and choosing the 3 out of 50 sentences you want to pick apart does nobody any good and doesn't further your own argument.

I will though, reiterate that I'm not talking about CC blocking. I COULD CARE LESS IF IT GOES OR NOT. Get it?

Also I'm not saying it's not Flayra's game, obviously it is. That doesn't mean that it's not in his best interest to listen to the educated community. And it doesn't stop the educated community from making decisions about the usage of a bug until it's fixed. I merely think that if the community decides something about a bug in the game, Flayra should go along.

Educated vs uneducated doesn't polarize the community, anyone can become educated as soon as they want to. Look at Mr Ben for an example <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

Fin · September 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Sep 25 2004, 04:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Who's splitting the community? Who is polarising people as "uneducated" and "educated" hmm? As I see it, blockscripts is no more serious than game modes. I mean, why start a ruck over how Team FFA is better than Objective gameplay? People just keep to their own servers, and noone has trouble. Why then do people kick up a stink, in a CC BLOCKING THREAD, about scripts?

People who do that, they are the people who are attempting to split the community.. not people who are saying "each to their own". Ask yourself this, is it better FOR THE COMMUNITY if people play on servers they don't like, whining at the other players, admins, etc, and then going onto the forums to complain about how they didn't like the gameplay on this on server

OR

People play on the servers they like, making their own if they have to, and use the forums to shoot the breeze and discuss the game, as opposed to off topic rants in the wrong thread about people's "skill" and "education"?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Wow your a lost one arn't you.... Spliting up the competitive/pub community. I don't need to play in a pub, i don't really want to play in a pub, and i know that many pubbers will not join competitive ns in these mp_bs 1 because they will feel like their playing with cheaters if they do. Why did they pick to play in a mp_bs 1 server in the first place? Because they thought scripting is an exploit, which is WRONG. Fact is they will never play with me.

Oh and for your information i ran a community, it was a good community and i know how majority of newbies/moderate players think. I remember how i had to calm the server down because one cal-delta player came in and no one could take it that he was legit or expected me to actually care enough to either a) kick/ban b) play at that level just so they could be satisfied that he wasn't a cheater. And this was before mp_bs 1.... Now you split the community because i will not play on a mp_bs 1 server. No pubber who plays on mp_bs 1 will learn from me. Will have the challange of playing me or even get lessons from me. You see, you put a wall between me and you. And why won't i play, its not about scripts, for i use 1 script to bunnyhop and no more, its about the level of intelligence. I know what you don't and i don't want to waste my time with those who do not understand like you and are to ignorant to learn. Ill teach the newbie in a pub in mp_bs 0 because though he doesn't know he is willing to learn, you are not, you put a wall up and ill let you hide behind it because i do not care. In game that is.

Oh and i read what nada said and because i know what nada said was correct i agreed with him because this thread has been rewritten about 100 times...

Thats about all i read beside your part to me.

good bye

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