APM doesn't make sense in NS and does not count. And regarding normal RTS - my friend plays hardcore WC3, he once shown me, how he begins the game clicking on workers very quickly to 'practice mouse' and also raise APM, because people look at APM :-) So if people try to have higher APM just for fun by making useless actions, what does it mean? APM is just one of indicators, it does not tell you who was better. If you keep repeating same useless order to same units, you are doing nothing..
If comm drops 1000 medpacks, he has high APM, but he spends res in bad way and can easilly loose game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Hobojoe+Aug 20 2004, 09:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hobojoe @ Aug 20 2004, 09:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> no i don't think being good at a this game is an important factor.
what kind of topic is this <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I want your babys.
The primary reason for the "controversy" lies in the definition and usage of APM
You are assuming with APM that each player has a holy grail of blueprint instructions to follow, and that the faster he follows it the faster he will succeed. The first person to finish the lab / bake the pizza / mix the recipe of ultimate doom wins.
But this overlooks the fact that some decisions are better than others. Your examples are examples of skill vs non skill. Someone is taking more actions, but that someone just happens to know the right things to do given such a situation. Achieving APM as described by you is achieving APM for an ultimate plan <i>already in existence.</i> But someone has to figure out that plan first.
in NS since the units are other people the ideal APM plan is much harder to achieve, and the fundamental basis for APM = win, the decision making, is extremely variable. It is not a controlled situation with environmental constants and rules governing unit behavior such as in a regular RTS.
Therefore in NS good and fast decision making is perhaps even more important than in a more static traditional RTS - considering the differences in starting situations between NS and Starcraft, for example, besides even their human component.
A better shorthand for a measure of ability, then, maybe is the GDPM (good decisions / minute) + the skill to carry them out, or maybe just GAPM, good actions per minute
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> Wow. I typed this on a Saturday night. WTH
Sorry cam0, but ns really does not have alot of micro when comparing to real rts games. APM does not mean as much as people make it out to. Sure high apm could be a skilled player, but it can be someone just trying to get a high apm. Trying to get faster? Then make your moves COUNT. I'd rather have a low apm, but do things right, than have a high apm with tons of **** wrong and missed med spam. Getting faster doesn't hurt, but getting faster and screwing up does.
edit: A better shorthand for a measure of ability, then, maybe is the GDPM (good decisions / minute) + the skill to carry them out, or maybe just GAPM, good actions per minute
He knows what I am talking about, just high apm doesn't make you good, doing the right thing fastest does though. APM is misleading.
<!--QuoteBegin-CHAMOIS+Aug 22 2004, 06:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CHAMOIS @ Aug 22 2004, 06:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> APM has absolutely nothing to do with an FPS. Close thread. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes it does. Pro UT players clearly have more APM than those that don't.
<span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>, but the term is not a catch-all designed to gauge skill in any game let alone RTS games and especially not FPS games. There are few things that can be clearcut defined 'actions' in an FPS game. It's worlds apart from an RTS.
Hell, in a game with a playerbase more focused on APM than any other (starcraft) if you said apm = skill, you would be laughed at and mocked. If you were to then attempt to apply it as a measurement of <i>FPS</i> skill of all things, <span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>
What I'm trying to say here, and I think anyone who has played starcraft past the USE MAP SETTINGS stage of their life would agree, is that you don't know what you're talking about. apm is not a universal measurement of skill, it's not even one for starcraft. It is but one of many facets that make up a good SC player.
<!--QuoteBegin-Amplifier+Aug 22 2004, 01:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Amplifier @ Aug 22 2004, 01:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry cam0, but ns really does not have alot of micro when comparing to real rts games. APM does not mean as much as people make it out to. Sure high apm could be a skilled player, but it can be someone just trying to get a high apm. Trying to get faster? Then make your moves COUNT. I'd rather have a low apm, but do things right, than have a high apm with tons of **** wrong and missed med spam. Getting faster doesn't hurt, but getting faster and screwing up does.
edit: A better shorthand for a measure of ability, then, maybe is the GDPM (good decisions / minute) + the skill to carry them out, or maybe just GAPM, good actions per minute <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> At that point you could just straight away cut out the vagaries and get to the point where you can say "The more you know, and the earlier you know it, the better you are. How often you hit your keyboard (or in NS, mike) is largely irrelevant."
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sure you think you're an expert on the subject because someone mentioned apm during one of your comp stomps on bnet<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I backstab on comp stomps. That's the only reason I join them. Never have I heard APM talked about outside of a 1v1.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but the term is not a catch-all designed to gauge skill in any game let alone RTS games and especially not FPS games.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I beg to differ. The player who's constantly stocked in armor, mega health, and controls the best weapons who leaps around the map constantly is in control more than the player who just camps the corner and takes shots at people who pass by. If you watch a pro video (I think it's UT), they are constantly leaping around and always doing somthing. Thus more actions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hell, in a game with a playerbase more focused on APM than any other (starcraft) if you said apm = skill, you would be laughed at and mocked.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe Warcraft is more into APM. APM doesn't = skill but it is a factor. If you took two pro players, cloned them, then gave one more APM. The one with more APM would win everytime. Though APM isn't a nessesity for pro players (Check out Northrends APM70. A top Euro player with around 70 APM, as his name specifies.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What I'm trying to say here, and I think anyone who has played starcraft past the USE MAP SETTINGS stage of their life would agree, is that you don't know what you're talking about. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I hate UMS's. It's apparent though that if you're doing more things than the opponent (Unless it's somthing useless like spamming rallies) you will be more profficient at doing things.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How often you hit your keyboard (or in NS, mike) is largely irrelevant." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you want to get somewhere fast as a marine, you'll need to strafe run. This requires more key presses than if you wanted to just run normally. Strafe running gets you to where you want to go faster. A comm who constantly communicates (A rareity) is usuallly a winning comm. Though it's not needed, it's a nice thing to have. Ever since flashlights/phase gates started dropping my FPS down to five, it's been hard for me to comm. I have good build orders, but with 5 fps it's impossible to speak through a mic clearly. I have to type to my marines. At least it's better than sitting silent and waypointing.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
You are thinking of this in narrow terms..
Strafe-jumping is a skill that is completely un-related to APM.. Anyone who understands the physics of Half-life can do it. However, if you can do it, being able to swing your mouse faster doesn't make you able to move faster... It's not something that is able to be determined by how fast you move the mouse or click a button which is at the heart of things what APM is..
Same with firing a weapon, knowing that burst firing is the way to go is a skill, but you can't fire a weapon faster if you have a higher APM.
Look at a skill as a unit. For example, B-hopping either you can do it or you can't.. Those who can, don't gain anything extra by arcing their mouse faster... (thus having a higher APM)
I could see the case of being able to drop a IP/Armoury and Arms lab all within 5 seconds being a good example of where APM may factor into NS. But I've never seen a situation where someone who did this won the game solely based on that factor. Med spam is something else, since it's so easy to do that even those with a traditionally low APM can med-spam quickly.
First of all one of your examples was about cloning two players and then pointing out the one with the higher apm would be superior. Cloning. Making duplicates. Two identical people. <span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>
Your second example was someone controlling the map versus someone who was camping in a corner. CONTROLLING THE MAP. Not the person mashing his keyboard faster vs the person who didn't touch his keyboard. The person PLAYING THE GAME would beat the person NOT PLAYING THE GAME. amazing logic, how can this be defined as APM? It can't. You're trying to wedge APM into any game where it does not make any sense to do so.
Yes there is speed, and reflexes required to be a good FPS player. This isn't APM, it doesn't make sense to call this APM. And if you think the WC3 scene has more to do with APM than starcraft <span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>
<span style='color:white'>I guess this qualifies as an official warning.</span>
In a co map if I go gorge ontop of the hive, lookdown, select healspray, and type +attack in console, am I a bad player. I bet I was critical in keeping the hive up and kosher. I contributed to no kills etc. But would you not want me on your team again?
<!--QuoteBegin-Hobojoe+Aug 20 2004, 09:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hobojoe @ Aug 20 2004, 09:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> no i don't think being good at a this game is an important factor.
what kind of topic is this <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the thread was killed at that point.
<!--QuoteBegin-Alkiller+Aug 23 2004, 06:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alkiller @ Aug 23 2004, 06:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Hobojoe+Aug 20 2004, 09:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hobojoe @ Aug 20 2004, 09:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> no i don't think being good at a this game is an important factor.
what kind of topic is this <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the thread was killed at that point. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thread was killed when the trolls took over.
On the gorge subject:
I'd prefer an Onos attacking the comm chair more <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Well the Onos would kill the marines then proceed to the comm chair along with the rest of the team. The hive wouldn't need healing if you just killed the marines before they got a chance to get in. Most public servers disable the time limit. That's mostly for league games. And in league games you can't go in rine spawn, and one gorge isn't enough <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Jammno: If you put a thread up for discussion, you should be willing to acknowledge arguments going against your point. People disagreeing with you are not trolls.
This is not to say that we don't have some of them in here. Hobo, CHAM, if all you can produce is sarcasm, I might decide that your presence is not desired around here.
Comments
And regarding normal RTS - my friend plays hardcore WC3, he once shown me, how he begins the game clicking on workers very quickly to 'practice mouse' and also raise APM, because people look at APM :-) So if people try to have higher APM just for fun by making useless actions, what does it mean?
APM is just one of indicators, it does not tell you who was better. If you keep repeating same useless order to same units, you are doing nothing..
If comm drops 1000 medpacks, he has high APM, but he spends res in bad way and can easilly loose game.
what kind of topic is this <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want your babys.
You are assuming with APM that each player has a holy grail of blueprint instructions to follow, and that the faster he follows it the faster he will succeed. The first person to finish the lab / bake the pizza / mix the recipe of ultimate doom wins.
But this overlooks the fact that some decisions are better than others. Your examples are examples of skill vs non skill. Someone is taking more actions, but that someone just happens to know the right things to do given such a situation. Achieving APM as described by you is achieving APM for an ultimate plan <i>already in existence.</i> But someone has to figure out that plan first.
in NS since the units are other people the ideal APM plan is much harder to achieve, and the fundamental basis for APM = win, the decision making, is extremely variable. It is not a controlled situation with environmental constants and rules governing unit behavior such as in a regular RTS.
Therefore in NS good and fast decision making is perhaps even more important than in a more static traditional RTS - considering the differences in starting situations between NS and Starcraft, for example, besides even their human component.
A better shorthand for a measure of ability, then, maybe is the GDPM (good decisions / minute) + the skill to carry them out, or maybe just GAPM, good actions per minute
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Wow. I typed this on a Saturday night. WTH
edit:
A better shorthand for a measure of ability, then, maybe is the GDPM (good decisions / minute) + the skill to carry them out, or maybe just GAPM, good actions per minute
He knows what I am talking about, just high apm doesn't make you good, doing the right thing fastest does though. APM is misleading.
Yes it does. Pro UT players clearly have more APM than those that don't.
Hell, in a game with a playerbase more focused on APM than any other (starcraft) if you said apm = skill, you would be laughed at and mocked. If you were to then attempt to apply it as a measurement of <i>FPS</i> skill of all things, <span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>
What I'm trying to say here, and I think anyone who has played starcraft past the USE MAP SETTINGS stage of their life would agree, is that you don't know what you're talking about. apm is not a universal measurement of skill, it's not even one for starcraft. It is but one of many facets that make up a good SC player.
edit:
A better shorthand for a measure of ability, then, maybe is the GDPM (good decisions / minute) + the skill to carry them out, or maybe just GAPM, good actions per minute <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
At that point you could just straight away cut out the vagaries and get to the point where you can say "The more you know, and the earlier you know it, the better you are. How often you hit your keyboard (or in NS, mike) is largely irrelevant."
I backstab on comp stomps. That's the only reason I join them. Never have I heard APM talked about outside of a 1v1.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but the term is not a catch-all designed to gauge skill in any game let alone RTS games and especially not FPS games.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I beg to differ. The player who's constantly stocked in armor, mega health, and controls the best weapons who leaps around the map constantly is in control more than the player who just camps the corner and takes shots at people who pass by. If you watch a pro video (I think it's UT), they are constantly leaping around and always doing somthing. Thus more actions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hell, in a game with a playerbase more focused on APM than any other (starcraft) if you said apm = skill, you would be laughed at and mocked.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe Warcraft is more into APM. APM doesn't = skill but it is a factor. If you took two pro players, cloned them, then gave one more APM. The one with more APM would win everytime. Though APM isn't a nessesity for pro players (Check out Northrends APM70. A top Euro player with around 70 APM, as his name specifies.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What I'm trying to say here, and I think anyone who has played starcraft past the USE MAP SETTINGS stage of their life would agree, is that you don't know what you're talking about. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate UMS's. It's apparent though that if you're doing more things than the opponent (Unless it's somthing useless like spamming rallies) you will be more profficient at doing things.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How often you hit your keyboard (or in NS, mike) is largely irrelevant." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you want to get somewhere fast as a marine, you'll need to strafe run. This requires more key presses than if you wanted to just run normally. Strafe running gets you to where you want to go faster. A comm who constantly communicates (A rareity) is usuallly a winning comm. Though it's not needed, it's a nice thing to have. Ever since flashlights/phase gates started dropping my FPS down to five, it's been hard for me to comm. I have good build orders, but with 5 fps it's impossible to speak through a mic clearly. I have to type to my marines. At least it's better than sitting silent and waypointing.
Strafe-jumping is a skill that is completely un-related to APM.. Anyone who understands the physics of Half-life can do it. However, if you can do it, being able to swing your mouse faster doesn't make you able to move faster... It's not something that is able to be determined by how fast you move the mouse or click a button which is at the heart of things what APM is..
Same with firing a weapon, knowing that burst firing is the way to go is a skill, but you can't fire a weapon faster if you have a higher APM.
Look at a skill as a unit. For example, B-hopping either you can do it or you can't.. Those who can, don't gain anything extra by arcing their mouse faster... (thus having a higher APM)
I could see the case of being able to drop a IP/Armoury and Arms lab all within 5 seconds being a good example of where APM may factor into NS. But I've never seen a situation where someone who did this won the game solely based on that factor. Med spam is something else, since it's so easy to do that even those with a traditionally low APM can med-spam quickly.
First of all one of your examples was about cloning two players and then pointing out the one with the higher apm would be superior. Cloning. Making duplicates. Two identical people. <span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>
Your second example was someone controlling the map versus someone who was camping in a corner. CONTROLLING THE MAP. Not the person mashing his keyboard faster vs the person who didn't touch his keyboard. The person PLAYING THE GAME would beat the person NOT PLAYING THE GAME. amazing logic, how can this be defined as APM? It can't. You're trying to wedge APM into any game where it does not make any sense to do so.
Yes there is speed, and reflexes required to be a good FPS player. This isn't APM, it doesn't make sense to call this APM. And if you think the WC3 scene has more to do with APM than starcraft <span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>
<span style='color:white'>I guess this qualifies as an official warning.</span>
I bet I was critical in keeping the hive up and kosher.
I contributed to no kills etc. But would you not want me on your team again?
what kind of topic is this <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the thread was killed at that point.
what kind of topic is this <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the thread was killed at that point. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thread was killed when the trolls took over.
On the gorge subject:
I'd prefer an Onos attacking the comm chair more <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
hive heal at 10%>onos attacking cc at 100%
the way I see it is, if you lose, you didnt win (obiously). But if you are aliens, if you dont lose, you will win after 10 or so minutes
Jammno: If you put a thread up for discussion, you should be willing to acknowledge arguments going against your point. People disagreeing with you are not trolls.
This is not to say that we don't have some of them in here. Hobo, CHAM, if all you can produce is sarcasm, I might decide that your presence is not desired around here.