Lcpl Abdul Henderson
Zig
...I am Captain Planet! Join Date: 2002-10-23 Member: 1576Members
...I am Captain Planet! Join Date: 2002-10-23 Member: 1576Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">and what makes a US Marine</div> found this at a Marine Corps forum i frequent..
<a href='http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2004-07-28-fahrenheit-marine_x.htm' target='_blank'>'Fahrenheit' soldier in hot water?</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->'Fahrenheit' soldier in hot water?
By Gary Strauss, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — Fahrenheit 9/11 transformed Marine Lance Cpl. Abdul Henderson into an internationally known war protester. Now it could get him in legal trouble.
<img src='http://images.usatoday.com/life/_photos/2004/07/29/fahrenheit-henderson-inside.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> The Marine Corps is investigating Lance Cpl. Abdul Henderson's appearance in Michael Moore's film Fahrenheit 9/11.
Dog Eat Dog Films
When asked on screen by director Michael Moore whether he planned to return to fight in Iraq, Henderson said no.
"The question kind of surprised me, because I wasn't expecting it," says Henderson, a reservist who saw combat for about two months after the Iraq war began. "But my answer came from the heart."
The scene, along with others in which Henderson accompanies Moore to Capitol Hill as Moore tries to enlist members of Congress to send their kids off to fight, was filmed last March.
With his unit facing a possible autumn return to Iraq, Henderson says he isn't changing his mind. "I'm conflicted because as a soldier, you're compelled to the call of duty — that's what I signed up for," Henderson says. "But I'm standing up for what I believe in."
The Marine Corps is conducting a preliminary inquiry into Henderson's appearance in Fahrenheit 9/11. Marine spokesman Capt. Patrick Kerr says authorities need to decide whether any action is warranted. "He made it very clear that he would not follow orders," Kerr says. "We're trying to determine what, if anything, he said or did was wrong" and what the punishment might be.
Henderson faces harsher penalties if he fails to report for a second Iraq tour. "Technically, he'd be a deserter," Kerr says. Punishment could range from an administrative discharge to a court-martial, which could land Henderson in a military prison for up to a year, Kerr says.
During early stages of the war, Henderson's unit, an ANGLCO (Air Naval Gunfire Liaison company), radioed air and artillery support for British coalition forces. He saw combat and won the Marine Corps Achievement Medal after trying to rescue British soldiers who were trapped in an overturned vehicle.
Armed with documents citing outstanding performance during five years as a reservist, the bespectacled, soft-spoken Henderson describes himself as a patriot.
"When this country goes to war, everyone should pitch in," says Henderson, a business major at California State University-Los Angeles. "As a soldier, that's what I signed up for."
Still, invading Iraq made no sense to Henderson, 29. Neither, he says, does returning. "I'd go to Afghanistan" because it's harboring terrorists, he says. "But Iraq? Where's the imminent threat?"
Henderson joined the Marine reserves in 1999. Before Iraq, he planned to become an officer and helicopter pilot. Now, he hopes to complete his six-year obligation and earn an MBA.
Henderson says a Moore staffer contacted him after he showed up at congressional hearings last fall with military families who were against the war. His appearance in the movie has drawn fire from conservatives. But Henderson has heard nothing from superiors since Fahrenheit 9/11's launch June 23.
"I expect trouble, but who knows?" Henderson says. "They never told us not to give our opinions of how we felt. It probably helps that I'm a reservist and not a full-time Marine."
Henderson, who describes himself as a spiritual Christian, says he prefers to remain out of the limelight. He's spending the summer in Washington, D.C., where he is helping his wife, a doctoral student at Howard University, tend to their newborn son. Citing a need for privacy, Henderson declined to reveal their names.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THIS is the guy. THIS is the Marine (of all services, why a Marine??) who disgraces his country and his Corps, to get his "opinion" out.
Free speech? YOU DON'T HAVE free speech in the military! You have the right to your own opinion - but you don't have the right to disobey orders, to speak out against your Commander in Chief, not while you're on contract.
Standing up for what you believe in?
I am appalled that this Abdul guy could even be THINKING that. What this guy is doing is just being a class-A WHINER. You signed on, you STICK IT OUT and complain when your service is OVER.
<!--QuoteBegin-jerryd6818+ grunt.com forums--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (jerryd6818 @ grunt.com forums)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='font-size:9pt;line-height:100%'>Obviously, it's the Marine Corps fault. The Marine Corps has failed to install in his brain-housing-group the number one rule of being a Marine. "If the Marine Corps had wanted you to have a f-----g opinion, the Marine Corps would have issued one to you!"</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With his unit facing a possible autumn return to Iraq, Henderson says he isn't changing his mind. "I'm conflicted because as a soldier, you're compelled to the call of duty — that's what I signed up for," Henderson says. "But I'm standing up for what I believe in."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This just gets my goat on so many levels. If the Marine Corps and armed conflict don't live up to your Movietone concepts of what they should be, suck it up, finish your tour and get out. Maybe you're "conflicted" because you don't know who the hell you are. You're not a "soldier"! You're a G--D--n Marine, for Christs sake!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"When this country goes to war, everyone should pitch in," says Henderson, a business major at California State University-Los Angeles. "As a soldier, that's what I signed up for."
Still, invading Iraq made no sense to Henderson, 29. Neither, he says, does returning. "I'd go to Afghanistan" because it's harboring terrorists, he says. "But Iraq? Where's the imminent threat?"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well "when this country goes to war" dipstick, you don't get to pick and choose which wars are right for you. You pack your gear, get on the boat and lock and load when your are ordered to. Your Commander and Chief decides (right or wrong) "where the imminent threat" is and you, by God, will do everything in your power as a Marine to eliminate that "imminent threat"
Damn!! I have to go make a pot of coffee before I have a f-----g stroke.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The guy above served in Vietnam from '62-'66. I agree with him wholeheartedly.. it sickens me that people can BE like that.. and it makes me feel all the better that I'm joining the Corps for the right reasons. I know I'll never disgrace my service, no matter what it orders me to do, nor my President, no matter who he is at the time, nor MYSELF, no matter what I've gone through..
Lance Corporal Henderson, I am damn sorry that you chose the wrong job, but <i>honestly</i>... <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2004-07-28-fahrenheit-marine_x.htm' target='_blank'>'Fahrenheit' soldier in hot water?</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->'Fahrenheit' soldier in hot water?
By Gary Strauss, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — Fahrenheit 9/11 transformed Marine Lance Cpl. Abdul Henderson into an internationally known war protester. Now it could get him in legal trouble.
<img src='http://images.usatoday.com/life/_photos/2004/07/29/fahrenheit-henderson-inside.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> The Marine Corps is investigating Lance Cpl. Abdul Henderson's appearance in Michael Moore's film Fahrenheit 9/11.
Dog Eat Dog Films
When asked on screen by director Michael Moore whether he planned to return to fight in Iraq, Henderson said no.
"The question kind of surprised me, because I wasn't expecting it," says Henderson, a reservist who saw combat for about two months after the Iraq war began. "But my answer came from the heart."
The scene, along with others in which Henderson accompanies Moore to Capitol Hill as Moore tries to enlist members of Congress to send their kids off to fight, was filmed last March.
With his unit facing a possible autumn return to Iraq, Henderson says he isn't changing his mind. "I'm conflicted because as a soldier, you're compelled to the call of duty — that's what I signed up for," Henderson says. "But I'm standing up for what I believe in."
The Marine Corps is conducting a preliminary inquiry into Henderson's appearance in Fahrenheit 9/11. Marine spokesman Capt. Patrick Kerr says authorities need to decide whether any action is warranted. "He made it very clear that he would not follow orders," Kerr says. "We're trying to determine what, if anything, he said or did was wrong" and what the punishment might be.
Henderson faces harsher penalties if he fails to report for a second Iraq tour. "Technically, he'd be a deserter," Kerr says. Punishment could range from an administrative discharge to a court-martial, which could land Henderson in a military prison for up to a year, Kerr says.
During early stages of the war, Henderson's unit, an ANGLCO (Air Naval Gunfire Liaison company), radioed air and artillery support for British coalition forces. He saw combat and won the Marine Corps Achievement Medal after trying to rescue British soldiers who were trapped in an overturned vehicle.
Armed with documents citing outstanding performance during five years as a reservist, the bespectacled, soft-spoken Henderson describes himself as a patriot.
"When this country goes to war, everyone should pitch in," says Henderson, a business major at California State University-Los Angeles. "As a soldier, that's what I signed up for."
Still, invading Iraq made no sense to Henderson, 29. Neither, he says, does returning. "I'd go to Afghanistan" because it's harboring terrorists, he says. "But Iraq? Where's the imminent threat?"
Henderson joined the Marine reserves in 1999. Before Iraq, he planned to become an officer and helicopter pilot. Now, he hopes to complete his six-year obligation and earn an MBA.
Henderson says a Moore staffer contacted him after he showed up at congressional hearings last fall with military families who were against the war. His appearance in the movie has drawn fire from conservatives. But Henderson has heard nothing from superiors since Fahrenheit 9/11's launch June 23.
"I expect trouble, but who knows?" Henderson says. "They never told us not to give our opinions of how we felt. It probably helps that I'm a reservist and not a full-time Marine."
Henderson, who describes himself as a spiritual Christian, says he prefers to remain out of the limelight. He's spending the summer in Washington, D.C., where he is helping his wife, a doctoral student at Howard University, tend to their newborn son. Citing a need for privacy, Henderson declined to reveal their names.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THIS is the guy. THIS is the Marine (of all services, why a Marine??) who disgraces his country and his Corps, to get his "opinion" out.
Free speech? YOU DON'T HAVE free speech in the military! You have the right to your own opinion - but you don't have the right to disobey orders, to speak out against your Commander in Chief, not while you're on contract.
Standing up for what you believe in?
I am appalled that this Abdul guy could even be THINKING that. What this guy is doing is just being a class-A WHINER. You signed on, you STICK IT OUT and complain when your service is OVER.
<!--QuoteBegin-jerryd6818+ grunt.com forums--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (jerryd6818 @ grunt.com forums)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='font-size:9pt;line-height:100%'>Obviously, it's the Marine Corps fault. The Marine Corps has failed to install in his brain-housing-group the number one rule of being a Marine. "If the Marine Corps had wanted you to have a f-----g opinion, the Marine Corps would have issued one to you!"</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With his unit facing a possible autumn return to Iraq, Henderson says he isn't changing his mind. "I'm conflicted because as a soldier, you're compelled to the call of duty — that's what I signed up for," Henderson says. "But I'm standing up for what I believe in."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This just gets my goat on so many levels. If the Marine Corps and armed conflict don't live up to your Movietone concepts of what they should be, suck it up, finish your tour and get out. Maybe you're "conflicted" because you don't know who the hell you are. You're not a "soldier"! You're a G--D--n Marine, for Christs sake!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"When this country goes to war, everyone should pitch in," says Henderson, a business major at California State University-Los Angeles. "As a soldier, that's what I signed up for."
Still, invading Iraq made no sense to Henderson, 29. Neither, he says, does returning. "I'd go to Afghanistan" because it's harboring terrorists, he says. "But Iraq? Where's the imminent threat?"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well "when this country goes to war" dipstick, you don't get to pick and choose which wars are right for you. You pack your gear, get on the boat and lock and load when your are ordered to. Your Commander and Chief decides (right or wrong) "where the imminent threat" is and you, by God, will do everything in your power as a Marine to eliminate that "imminent threat"
Damn!! I have to go make a pot of coffee before I have a f-----g stroke.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The guy above served in Vietnam from '62-'66. I agree with him wholeheartedly.. it sickens me that people can BE like that.. and it makes me feel all the better that I'm joining the Corps for the right reasons. I know I'll never disgrace my service, no matter what it orders me to do, nor my President, no matter who he is at the time, nor MYSELF, no matter what I've gone through..
Lance Corporal Henderson, I am damn sorry that you chose the wrong job, but <i>honestly</i>... <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
Christ, you and that other guy that supposedly served in 'Nam... you try to make Abdul look like an idiot, but frankly, you came off just as much of one.
The entire contents of your post, sig and all, only tell me two things:
1) You'd gladly set fire to a box of puppies if you were ordered to.
2) Killing is the greatest thing in your life.
I guess it takes a certain type of mindset to be a soldier - I sure as hell am glad I'm not.
NOTE: It's ironic that this guy in 'Nam telling him to eat **** and smile is the one who served in a war where they were ordered to, and gladly commited atrocities and war crimes that should've been punished, then has the gall to tell Abdul how to have an opinion on what the majority of the public thinks was the most completely wrong war in a long time: How many innocent villages do you think this guy burned to the ground?
Once you enlist in the United States military, the Bill of Rights no longer applies to you: instead, you live by the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
<!--QuoteBegin-Confirmation of Enlistment+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Confirmation of Enlistment)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Uniform Code of Military Justice+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Uniform Code of Military Justice)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->888. ART. 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Uniform Code of Military Justice+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Uniform Code of Military Justice)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->892. ART. 92. FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION
Any person subject to this chapter who--
(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;
(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or
(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Uniform Code of Military Justice+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Uniform Code of Military Justice)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->894. ART. 94. MUTINY OR SEDITION
(a) Any person subject to this chapter who--
(1) with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority, refuses, in concert with any other person, to obey orders or otherwise do his duty or creates any violence or disturbance is guilty of mutiny;
(2) with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority, creates, in concert with any other person, revolt, violence, or disturbance against that authority is guilty of sedition;
(3) fails to do his utmost to prevent and suppress a mutiny or sedition being committed in his presence, or fails to take all reasonable means to inform his superior commissioned officer or commanding officer of a mutiny or sedition which he knows or has reason to believe is taking place, is guilty of a failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition.
(b) A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
now, then..
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Christ, you and that other guy that supposedly served in 'Nam... you try to make Abdul look like an idiot, but frankly, you came off just as much of one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It helps to know what you're talking about before you open your mouth. Loaded words without any comprehension of basic subject concepts do not a good argument make.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->'62 - '66
June '62 - MCRD San Diego Plt. 145,
Construction Electrician School Port Hueneme CA,
2nd LAAM Bn. 29 Palms,
MCRD San Diego Electronics and Radar School,
Ft. Bliss TX HAWK Missle School,
"B" Btry 3rd LAAM Bn Cherry Point,
Operation Steel Pike,
August '65 - "A" Btry 1st LAAM Bn Da Nang RVN,
"B" Btry 1st LAAM Bn Monkey Mtn. Da Nang RVN,
El Toro for out processing Sept. '66. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's his enlistment info. Care to contest it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well "when this country goes to war" dipstick, you don't get to pick and choose which wars are right for you. You pack your gear, get on the boat and lock and load when your are ordered to. Your Commander and Chief decides (right or wrong) "where the imminent threat" is and you, by God, will do everything in your power as a Marine to eliminate that "imminent threat"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
....especially if it refers to enlisting in the military as this LCpl did. Now if he were drafted into the military, which is a compulsory thing obviously, he should have the right to protest his being sent into war. If he wants to be paid for his services, which is the only sane reason someone would have to join the military, then he has to be the military's **** for his tour of duty...it's part of the job requirements.
Zig is right though, once you join the military, they own you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let's all just let the ignorance shine through our tie die shirts and hemp<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did not join the military for just the reason that this young man is finding out about. The military owns you, and I just can't see being owned like that, at least not if I have a real choice in the matter.
I hope the military doesn't make a stupid mistake like give him prison time, but I would hope they give him a slight slap on the wrist to let him know he stepped out of line.
What if your job as a solider was to be violent somewhere in America, against Americans? Please I would hope you use your judgement on that.
America is America.. that's it.
I'll be conscious of every order I'm given, and the implications of each of these orders..
What Henderson is doing is not "using his judgement".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Henderson joined the Marine reserves in 1999. Before Iraq, he planned to become an officer and helicopter pilot. Now, he hopes to complete his six-year obligation and earn an MBA. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's just another malcontent looking to get free schooling.
So you're technically the military's b****?
So if a military doctor comes up to you and says that your CO gave the order for him to inject you with some odd green-glowing liquid you'd HAVE to get it injected into you? "Ouch, that stings... and i just went blind." GG mystery injection. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
// Note to self, never join US military or any organized military, militia, or paramilitary group.
Does anyone find it ironic that you can have free speech as a civilian but not as a soldier in the US?
I know i do...
But hey, <i>im just a Canadian</i>... not like my statements matter. Hmm... I wonder if they pull this load of garbage over Canadian troops as well...
Good God my country isn't retarded about sending troops to Iraq (fiscals running into the billions) and not that it would make any difference. Our military sucks, but the training is elite so I heard; this I based on the assumption that fewer the number the more focus is given.
Besides that I think everyone here has a point.
Perhaps this man shouldn't have slipped out a mindless comment, and seeing how he is a marine, a highly respected part of the American way of life, I don't see the rationality of his thought.
Although I somewhat agree with his statement, I wouldn't forfeit military allegiance when so many others are biting it out. It is really selfish, which would be my main reason for staying.
And seriously Zig, no offence, but try to understand his concerns instead of blasting him away; it made you sound like a military newbie, where as this guy has experience under his belt - impaired of judgement or not.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What if your job as a solider was to be violent somewhere in America, against Americans? Please I would hope you use your judgement on that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be scary. Presupposing that your commanding officers ordered killing hundreds of revolutionaries, would you? I think Zig would have a hard time making that moral decision, based on the fact that peer pressure would have a lot of involvement in it. You'd stand out like a dime in a dozen; hell you might be executed on the spot if it were that out of hand.
As a soldier, your first instinct should be to obey orders. Just follow them to the best of your abilities and finish your tour. After you are done with your tour, feel free to speak out and whatnot, just don't do it on the job.
Now that the stuff is getting thick, we're able to see who joined for the right reason, and who just joined for "an education" or "the benefits". There are a LOT of sacrifices that you make when joining the military, and the life is not for everyone. You'd be surprised how many people were absolutely shocked that they might actually have to DO what they've been training for in peace time. How many people think that they have the "right" to skip this conflict simply because it's not to their tastes. They don't last long.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->so if a military doctor comes up to you and says that your CO gave the order for him to inject you with some odd green-glowing liquid you'd HAVE to get it injected into you?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep.
Executive order 13139 allows the use of experimental drugs, not approved by the FDA, on soldiers without their knowledge or consent.
<a href='http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2004-07-28-fahrenheit-marine_x.htm' target='_blank'>'Fahrenheit' soldier in hot water?</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->'Fahrenheit' soldier in hot water?
By Gary Strauss, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — Fahrenheit 9/11 transformed Marine Lance Cpl. Abdul Henderson into an internationally known war protester. Now it could get him in legal trouble.
<img src='http://images.usatoday.com/life/_photos/2004/07/29/fahrenheit-henderson-inside.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> The Marine Corps is investigating Lance Cpl. Abdul Henderson's appearance in Michael Moore's film Fahrenheit 9/11.
Dog Eat Dog Films
When asked on screen by director Michael Moore whether he planned to return to fight in Iraq, Henderson said no.
"The question kind of surprised me, because I wasn't expecting it," says Henderson, a reservist who saw combat for about two months after the Iraq war began. "But my answer came from the heart."
The scene, along with others in which Henderson accompanies Moore to Capitol Hill as Moore tries to enlist members of Congress to send their kids off to fight, was filmed last March.
With his unit facing a possible autumn return to Iraq, Henderson says he isn't changing his mind. "I'm conflicted because as a soldier, you're compelled to the call of duty — that's what I signed up for," Henderson says. "But I'm standing up for what I believe in."
The Marine Corps is conducting a preliminary inquiry into Henderson's appearance in Fahrenheit 9/11. Marine spokesman Capt. Patrick Kerr says authorities need to decide whether any action is warranted. "He made it very clear that he would not follow orders," Kerr says. "We're trying to determine what, if anything, he said or did was wrong" and what the punishment might be.
Henderson faces harsher penalties if he fails to report for a second Iraq tour. "Technically, he'd be a deserter," Kerr says. Punishment could range from an administrative discharge to a court-martial, which could land Henderson in a military prison for up to a year, Kerr says.
During early stages of the war, Henderson's unit, an ANGLCO (Air Naval Gunfire Liaison company), radioed air and artillery support for British coalition forces. He saw combat and won the Marine Corps Achievement Medal after trying to rescue British soldiers who were trapped in an overturned vehicle.
Armed with documents citing outstanding performance during five years as a reservist, the bespectacled, soft-spoken Henderson describes himself as a patriot.
"When this country goes to war, everyone should pitch in," says Henderson, a business major at California State University-Los Angeles. "As a soldier, that's what I signed up for."
Still, invading Iraq made no sense to Henderson, 29. Neither, he says, does returning. "I'd go to Afghanistan" because it's harboring terrorists, he says. "But Iraq? Where's the imminent threat?"
Henderson joined the Marine reserves in 1999. Before Iraq, he planned to become an officer and helicopter pilot. Now, he hopes to complete his six-year obligation and earn an MBA.
Henderson says a Moore staffer contacted him after he showed up at congressional hearings last fall with military families who were against the war. His appearance in the movie has drawn fire from conservatives. But Henderson has heard nothing from superiors since Fahrenheit 9/11's launch June 23.
"I expect trouble, but who knows?" Henderson says. "They never told us not to give our opinions of how we felt. It probably helps that I'm a reservist and not a full-time Marine."
Henderson, who describes himself as a spiritual Christian, says he prefers to remain out of the limelight. He's spending the summer in Washington, D.C., where he is helping his wife, a doctoral student at Howard University, tend to their newborn son. Citing a need for privacy, Henderson declined to reveal their names.
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THIS is the guy. THIS is the Marine (of all services, why a Marine??) who disgraces his country and his Corps, to get his "opinion" out.
Free speech? YOU DON'T HAVE free speech in the military! You have the right to your own opinion - but you don't have the right to disobey orders, to speak out against your Commander in Chief, not while you're on contract.
Standing up for what you believe in?
I am appalled that this Abdul guy could even be THINKING that. What this guy is doing is just being a class-A WHINER. You signed on, you STICK IT OUT and complain when your service is OVER.
<!--QuoteBegin-jerryd6818+ grunt.com forums--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (jerryd6818 @ grunt.com forums)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='font-size:9pt;line-height:100%'>Obviously, it's the Marine Corps fault. The Marine Corps has failed to install in his brain-housing-group the number one rule of being a Marine. "If the Marine Corps had wanted you to have a f-----g opinion, the Marine Corps would have issued one to you!"</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With his unit facing a possible autumn return to Iraq, Henderson says he isn't changing his mind. "I'm conflicted because as a soldier, you're compelled to the call of duty — that's what I signed up for," Henderson says. "But I'm standing up for what I believe in."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This just gets my goat on so many levels. If the Marine Corps and armed conflict don't live up to your Movietone concepts of what they should be, suck it up, finish your tour and get out. Maybe you're "conflicted" because you don't know who the hell you are. You're not a "soldier"! You're a G--D--n Marine, for Christs sake!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"When this country goes to war, everyone should pitch in," says Henderson, a business major at California State University-Los Angeles. "As a soldier, that's what I signed up for."
Still, invading Iraq made no sense to Henderson, 29. Neither, he says, does returning. "I'd go to Afghanistan" because it's harboring terrorists, he says. "But Iraq? Where's the imminent threat?"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well "when this country goes to war" dipstick, you don't get to pick and choose which wars are right for you. You pack your gear, get on the boat and lock and load when your are ordered to. Your Commander and Chief decides (right or wrong) "where the imminent threat" is and you, by God, will do everything in your power as a Marine to eliminate that "imminent threat"
Damn!! I have to go make a pot of coffee before I have a f-----g stroke.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The guy above served in Vietnam from '62-'66. I agree with him wholeheartedly.. it sickens me that people can BE like that.. and it makes me feel all the better that I'm joining the Corps for the right reasons. I know I'll never disgrace my service, no matter what it orders me to do, nor my President, no matter who he is at the time, nor MYSELF, no matter what I've gone through..
Lance Corporal Henderson, I am damn sorry that you chose the wrong job, but <i>honestly</i>... <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A marine who dosen't believe in whats going on in the world, maybe the first of many?
Nobody should be forced to do something they don't want. <b>nobody</b> contract or not, if he dosen't want to go murder overseas for an imperialist regime he shouldn't have to. Thats <i>my</i> opinion which I am entitled to.
You think about your decision before you make it. If it's the wrong decision, you <b>man up and take responsibility for your actions.</b> You <b>finish your tour as you agreed to do, as a mature adult individual.</b>
It's called Canada's Code of Service Discipline.
And it's not "garbage." They give you the information and TELL you what you're signing up for. It's a big step, joining the military in Canada, too.. you guys see action in the middle east as well. But it is a step that you should have full understanding of at the time of decision-making. Every resource to help you understand it is at your disposal. If you don't like the choice you made, it's YOUR fault and not the fault of any establishment.
I won't have a hard time following orders in general because I signed up to have them given to me. Unlike some.
Or don't sign up.
When you join the military you have the right to say "No" to illegal orders. You do not have to follow any orders you believe to be illegal. Soldiers cannot use the excuse "Becuase I was ordered to" in their defense. That will not hold up should something like genocide happen.
But, something like the Iraq war... That's something they cannot claim is illegal. They'll be laughed at and thrown into prison for refusing to participate.
But just remember... Soldiers are not required to follow orders that they believe to be illegal... Its just that after they refuse to follow any such orders that they have to prove it ( and this guy has no chance of that if he chooses to take that road ).
Oh... And in the military you do not have as much free speech as a civilian does. The restrictions are in place to insure that the chain of command is respected among other things.
Nobody should be forced to do something they don't want. nobody contract or not, if he dosen't want to go murder overseas for an imperialist regime he shouldn't have to. Thats my opinion which I am entitled to.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Henderson can think that the Iraq War is a bad idea to his heart's content. He just better keep his mouth shut about it. When he signed up for the military, he agreed to abide by certain rules. He violated those rules and should therefore be punished. The whole point of signing a contract is that it's legally binding to the signatories. When I joined the Army, they made it damn clear what was expected of me and what was acceptable from the moment I stepped into MEPS. It was clear that I would no longer be bound to civilian law, but rather to the UCMJ.
If contracts can be broken simply because part of it is no longer convenient, all contracts would cease to exist.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You think about your decision before you make it. If it's the wrong decision, you man up and take responsibility for your actions. You finish your tour as you agreed to do, as a mature adult individual.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although I wouldn't use the phrase "man up," I agree with your point. I joined the military with the knowledge that it was highly probable I'd have to fight a war. The educational benefits, while nice, were a byproduct of service and not the primary result. I volunteered to be a tanker knowing full well what a tank is for.
I don't think that it's a stretch to ask military personnel to fight in a war. Since, you know, it's <i>their job.</i>
You have an obligation to the military if you sign up, but your obligation to being human comes first. Defend that to the death, and not some superfluous nationalistic ideals.
That's the same as forgery or fraud.
There isn't any excuse, though, for someone who "forgot" to read his contract, or the UCMJ, or didn't get any pertinent information that he needed.
When you get down to it, MEPS (govt. building for processing and enlistment) is 100% business, and they tell you that straight off the bat. <b>They ask you if you fully understand what you are signing.</b>
If you sign and have to complain later, it's 100% your fault.
At that point, they make the decision, and if they sign, it is their job, they have SWORN, to embrace that decision and live up to it.