Oc Buffs

24

Comments

  • TrevelyanTrevelyan Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14834Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-|ds|meatshield+Jul 27 2004, 03:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Jul 27 2004, 03:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yep. Skulks need beefing up, and Gorges need to have their gestation cost lowered. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    thats primarily it... marines can rebuild... aliens CANT till midgame.
  • SmoodCrooznSmoodCroozn Join Date: 2003-11-04 Member: 22310Members
    Rather than making them cost 5, how about buffing OCs a bit. That was a suggestion I made.

    "All-Knowing"?

    Of course.
  • TrevelyanTrevelyan Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14834Members
    edited July 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin-SmoodCroozn+Jul 27 2004, 05:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn @ Jul 27 2004, 05:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Rather than making them cost 5, how about buffing OCs a bit. That was a suggestion I made.

    "All-Knowing"?

    Of course. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    simply Buffing OCs doesn't solve:

    - The problem of affording OCs to cover more then one area

    - The issues of OC's bad aim AI and corner sniping (solved by intelligently dropping more OCs... which you cant afford)

    - Marines simply running past any you drop, since you cant make a large enough trail of OCs to make medspamming the marine past it prohibative.

    Yet if you drop the price... it solves all the problems with little tweaking.

    PLZ remember (this seems to happen often) that the alien team doesn't have infinite res. Yes I'm afraid if they spend res in OCs... they wont have res for RTs, hives, upgrade chambers, and/or fades.

    You still haven't told us for what reason OCs aren't 5 res right now.
  • kill4thrillskill4thrills Join Date: 2004-06-24 Member: 29506Members, Constellation
    5 res OCs are a little too cheap. you can drop 4 right at the start of the game, and completely block off marine start in large games. If cost is lowered it should be to 7.
  • TrevelyanTrevelyan Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14834Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-kill4thrills+Jul 28 2004, 02:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kill4thrills @ Jul 28 2004, 02:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 5 res OCs are a little too cheap. you can drop 4 right at the start of the game, and completely block off marine start in large games. If cost is lowered it should be to 7. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You do realise that tweaks to the OC could be made so it is worth 5 res, even if that were true. And besides... large games are unbalanced already. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • hidden_snperhidden_snper Join Date: 2004-03-18 Member: 27412Members
    Uh, guys, you are forgetting one thing: NS is supposed to be fun.

    So what if you loose as alien? Big deal, play another match.
  • kill4thrillskill4thrills Join Date: 2004-06-24 Member: 29506Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Jul 28 2004, 02:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Jul 28 2004, 02:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-kill4thrills+Jul 28 2004, 02:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kill4thrills @ Jul 28 2004, 02:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 5 res OCs are a little too cheap. you can drop 4 right at the start of the game, and completely block off marine start in large games. If cost is lowered it should be to 7. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You do realise that tweaks to the OC could be made so it is worth 5 res, even if that were true. And besides... large games are unbalanced already. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    i was refering to no tweak. ocs as they are now are not too bad. only thing that needs changing is their ability to hit marines shooting from behind cover.
  • TrevelyanTrevelyan Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14834Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-kill4thrills+Jul 28 2004, 04:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kill4thrills @ Jul 28 2004, 04:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i was refering to no tweak. ocs as they are now are not too bad. only thing that needs changing is their ability to hit marines shooting from behind cover. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    agreed.... The whole idea about the 5 res OC is that if you intelligently place them, marine's wont be able to shoot them down from the corners.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--QuoteBegin-hidden_sniper+Jul 28 2004, 04:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (hidden_sniper @ Jul 28 2004, 04:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Uh, guys, you are forgetting one thing: NS is supposed to be fun.

    So what if you loose as alien? Big deal, play another match. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    In what way is it fun to be so obviously disadvantaged as aliens? It's not fun to spend the early game throwing yourself at the superior base marines just trying to hold them off long enough to get a Fade and second hive. It's not fun to lose a hive to a single marine who snuck in a phase because your team couldn't afford to defend anything with OCs, and there weren't enough aliens on the map to cover all openings with more than one skulk. It's not fun to be the underpowered team.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    It actually gets balanced on smaller games, but big games just screw aliens over.
  • SmoodCrooznSmoodCroozn Join Date: 2003-11-04 Member: 22310Members
    edited July 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin-|ds|meatshield+Jul 28 2004, 06:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Jul 28 2004, 06:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It actually gets balanced on smaller games, but big games just screw aliens over. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That's why Flayra and Co. said the ideal number is 6v6.

    Trevelyan, I will agree with you on some parts. Yes, OCs are not effective until you have about 3 or 4 of them coupled with DCs, yes, they are vulnerable to long range attacks, and finally yes, I would like to see them used a bit more, but 5 res is simply too cheap. How much res do you think turret factories cost? 15 for the factory then you must have at least 3 to cover the blind spots = 45 res.

    Are you sure you take all the advantages of OCs? Do you place them in the absolute best spots for sniping marines? Do you make sure a skulk buddy is there with you to pounch on the sucker after he's wasted all his ammo? Do you make sure you are healing the OCs with all your spray making them last for a long time? OCs are hard to use, but 5 res will seriously alter the gameplay. Not only that, but more structures on a server will seriously lag the game. increasing the amount of entities on a server will make it hard for weaker connections.

    Though it maybe possible to balance with 5 res OCs, it will take a while to find the perfect balance... I am <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>not</span> saying this is a bad idea, but I don't see it as actually possible since it would take a lot of work refining and balancing while buffing an OC could be a lot easier to do.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    Actually TFac and turrets are all 10 nowdays.
  • TrevelyanTrevelyan Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14834Members
    edited July 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin-SmoodCroozn+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How much res do you think turret factories cost? 15 for the factory then you must have at least 3 to cover the blind spots = 45 res.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    again... 1 alien res does not = 1 marine res.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you make sure a skulk buddy is there with you to pounch on the sucker after he's wasted all his ammo?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Why do aliens require skulks to <i>defend the OC</i> with players to make them effective against the base marine unit? Ironic since the OC is the one that is ment to be defending. "Dont let marines get there in the first place" said over and over and over and over. How do you propose you do that without OCs... because you sure cant rely on them except for wasting res.

    Marines can destroy OCs without getting hurt, skulks cant bite turrets in safety. Marines can run past a 50 res OC nest, skulks cant run past a 50 res Turret farm without bypassing it... even if it wanted to. Marines have SHOTGUNS... aliens have... bilebomb?

    Why it is fine that marines can simply run off on their merry way when a turret farm is in place, but not for OCs is beyond me.



    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens can win in clan games, but it requires extreme teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Ah so you mean aliens can win clan games, but it requires them to be better then the marines? that sounds.... fair?
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    Actually unless I get a ridiculous amount of medpacks I can't just run past 5 OCs. The skulk and lerk just needs beefing up, and then I think games will be more balanced.
  • BobTheJanitorBobTheJanitor Join Date: 2003-12-10 Member: 24228Members, NS1 Playtester
    <!--QuoteBegin-|ds|meatshield+Jul 29 2004, 07:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Jul 29 2004, 07:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually unless I get a ridiculous amount of medpacks I can't just run past 5 OCs. The skulk and lerk just needs beefing up, and then I think games will be more balanced. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    But ask yourself if it's better for that 50 res to be passively guarding one area, or for it to be turned into a hive, or a fade? OCs simply aren't worth the cost. They're only good for guarding hives from JPers, and that only works in hives that you can't tuck yourself up on top of.
  • BuggyBuggy Join Date: 2003-11-08 Member: 22400Members, Constellation
    edited July 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    Aliens can win in clan games, but it requires extreme teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    <!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ah so you mean aliens can win clan games, but it requires them to be better then the marines? that sounds.... fair? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    No, it isn't, because marines don't need half the level of teamwork that aliens do. That was his point.
  • SmoodCrooznSmoodCroozn Join Date: 2003-11-04 Member: 22310Members
    Funny since marines were intended to be a teamwork team, while aliens were rambos... but it has done a complete 180...
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    Naw, NS is a team game in every aspect. Aliens never could win without teamwork, in ANY version.
  • todd1Oktodd1Ok Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28018Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
    <!--QuoteBegin-SmoodCroozn+Jul 23 2004, 12:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn @ Jul 23 2004, 12:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Second I believe the lerk WAS supposed to cost 25 since onos is 75 and fade is 50 so 25 should come next... BUT since NS beta4a gives alien players the starting res of 25... I bet you know what I'm saying. Think about it, more spores making rines easier to kill... More umbra to help that quick getaway or a strong push... Primal scream to uh... get that obs down faster disabling beacons... It should DEFINITELY encourage more lerking, which is a good thing<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    sure. wait 1 min for everyone to have 25 then lerk up en masse. GG.

    LERK FOR TEH WIN!!11!111 <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • RipurRipur Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7193Members
    the level of team work to win in v1.04 was less than later versions. It was stil needed in mid and end games, but early games, ramboing skulks where more effective than now.
  • SaltzBadSaltzBad Join Date: 2004-02-23 Member: 26833Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Jul 28 2004, 02:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Jul 28 2004, 02:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-kill4thrills+Jul 28 2004, 02:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kill4thrills @ Jul 28 2004, 02:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 5 res OCs are a little too cheap. you can drop 4 right at the start of the game, and completely block off marine start in large games. If cost is lowered it should be to 7. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You do realise that tweaks to the OC could be made so it is worth 5 res, even if that were true. And besides... large games are unbalanced already. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The 5 res OC suggestion came together with giving it half or less hitpoints - meaning you'd be able to take out a lone OC in a single LMG clip, if theres no gorge near. Thats a major nerf - I heavily doubt it would be overpowered, even if you had 3 dozen of them. Not to mention the structure-dropping counter, gg.
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Jul 27 2004, 08:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Jul 27 2004, 08:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Aliens lose in 6v6 clan games almost 100% of the time. FYI. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    No they don't...



    And I don't know what all the complaining about OC's is, in clan games OC's are 100x more useful than turrets are.


    Just put up some OC's where your hive is going up, works wonders for holding back SG rushes as well as rambo phases.
  • NGENGE Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22443Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 3 2004, 12:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 3 2004, 12:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->


    And I don't know what all the complaining about OC's is, in clan games OC's are 100x more useful than turrets are.


    Just put up some OC's where your hive is going up, works wonders for holding back SG rushes as well as rambo phases. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well, providing your team isn't going to go "lorf guys we have teh ocs the area is safe never look there again because it is protected" then you're right.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Aug 3 2004, 01:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Aug 3 2004, 01:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 3 2004, 12:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 3 2004, 12:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->


    And I don't know what all the complaining about OC's is, in clan games OC's are 100x more useful than turrets are.


    Just put up some OC's where your hive is going up, works wonders for holding back SG rushes as well as rambo phases. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well, providing your team isn't going to go "lorf guys we have teh ocs the area is safe never look there again because it is protected" then you're right. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Umm, NOBODY should ever say that. Turrets will NOT ever defend themselves (which is why they're a waste of res). They NEED manpower, as do OCs, to help them.
  • Rapier7Rapier7 Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
    Turrets can hold off skulks, lerks, and even gorges to some extent.

    OCs can't even fend off the base marine.
  • RipurRipur Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7193Members
    corner snipe for teh w1n!!1
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    To hold off lerks and skulks and any sort of concentrated effort by the aliens, I'll need to spend like 70, 80 res on a turret arm. If you have 8 OCs in an area, I'm sure even a shotgunner wouldn't go in to try to take it out. Any smaller of a turret farm, and a skulk can EASILY chew one turret, create a blind spot, die in the process, and come back to kill the TF. This is, of course, unless the marines COME TO PROTECT THE PLACE! Any defensive structures will fall given some time.
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Aug 3 2004, 09:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Aug 3 2004, 09:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Turrets can hold off skulks, lerks, and even gorges to some extent.

    OCs can't even fend off the base marine. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    1 oc > 1 turret

    Turrets suck and are never used in clanplay for a reason

    OC's are used ALL the time, because they wear down marine armor
  • TrevelyanTrevelyan Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14834Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->OC's are used ALL the time, because they wear down marine armor<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    There used more to expose marine movements. Wear down armor? You'd be better off getting a 30 res lerk, which can move about the map doing it's job (doing a better job mind you).

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The 5 res OC suggestion came together with giving it half or less hitpoints - meaning you'd be able to take out a lone OC in a single LMG clip, if theres no gorge near. Thats a major nerf - I heavily doubt it would be overpowered, even if you had 3 dozen of them. Not to mention the structure-dropping counter, gg.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Exactly... Cheaper ocs not only allow gorges to protect from corner sniping (covering blind spots), but it would compliment their actual use... monitering marine movement.
  • RipurRipur Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7193Members
    it would benice for aliens to have some form of effective static defense. Marines get electricity, which makes rts and tfs pretty much un touchable untill a second hive or fade shows up. Sure you can have askulk bite it twice, then get healed by a gorge, but that's really time consuming.
    Also a litte side idea- why not just change the hit box and look of the oc so it is slim like the turrets. It's really hard to find a good sniping angle on turrets with out them being able to shoot you.
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