<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Aug 4 2004, 02:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Aug 4 2004, 02:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->OC's are used ALL the time, because they wear down marine armor<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There used more to expose marine movements. Wear down armor? You'd be better off getting a 30 res lerk, which can move about the map doing it's job (doing a better job mind you). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You can only have one lerk, a couple of fades, and a skulk or two... after all is said and done the OC's come into play as the icing on the cake
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 4 2004, 11:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 4 2004, 11:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Aug 4 2004, 02:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Aug 4 2004, 02:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->OC's are used ALL the time, because they wear down marine armor<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There used more to expose marine movements. Wear down armor? You'd be better off getting a 30 res lerk, which can move about the map doing it's job (doing a better job mind you). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can only have one lerk, a couple of fades, and a skulk or two... after all is said and done the OC's come into play as the icing on the cake <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Correct... but the problem is that aliens have to hop from RT to RT defending from rambos and cannot afford OCs to delay/stop/Alert the alien team. You could afford... maybe one-two and not delay your teching dramaticly, which can be totally ignored with nearly no ill-effects. Marines simply need not care about their res nodes.
Why can the marines ignore their res being destroyed? A marine RT costs 15 res, and can be quickly built by any nearby marine. A alien RT needs a 10 res gorging cost (thus increasing the risk and time needed to build a RT), THEN 15 additional res (from a individual res pool mind you). Marines can rebuild early game... aliens can't. Thus if marine rambos run about the map slaughtering alien nodes, and the skulks destroy all the marine nodes... who wins? Marines thats who. Besides... who needs RTs when you have all that glorious RFK that your marines reap in?
a fun thing to do to a turret farm if uve got extra rez and theyr arnt any sieges in it is go gorge,
run out in the open next to the farm, drop 3 or so oc's as a shield to protect and and a dc behind you. and just healspray while you build the oc's.
give it a minute or 2 and the turret farms gone.
my point is, oc's are just fine, although id love for em to be a tad more acurate and not miss moving targets so much.
all i thinks need is lowered just 1 or 2 res to 9 or 8.
when the games goin if ur teams co-operated well and cap'd a decent amount of rt's then u can get oc's at a fair pace, the problem is at the start of the game with a gorge only being able to drop 1 oc before the 1st of the marines start showing up. because u still need 5 more res for the 2nd.
if you just lowered it to 9 ud only need 3 res and will most likely have it by the time u finished building the 1st
or 8 and be able to drop 2 straight of.
neither number would make much of a diference later, but it would help gorges get something that can at least stop 1 marine at the start.
at the moment the only really effective way to get oc's early is for gorges to pair up, so you can drop 2 right away, and make that 4 a few minutes later hoping you dont get rushed inbetween
NEO_PhyteWe need shirtgons!Join Date: 2003-12-16Member: 24453Members, Constellation
edited August 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-Mentar+Aug 4 2004, 10:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mentar @ Aug 4 2004, 10:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->oc's are definately stronger than turrets.
a fun thing to do to a turret farm if uve got extra rez and theyr arnt any sieges in it is go gorge,
run out in the open next to the farm, drop 3 or so oc's as a shield to protect and and <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>a dc behind you. and just healspray while you build the oc's.</b></span> give it a minute or 2 and the turret farms gone.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the only reason this statement makes OCs sound tougher is the fact that they are being healed while they shoot.
try doing this without any healing, and see if the results are the same
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Aug 4 2004, 05:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Aug 4 2004, 05:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> who needs RTs when you have all that glorious RFK that your marines reap in? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Bingo! root of all evils
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Aug 4 2004, 05:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Aug 4 2004, 05:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 4 2004, 11:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 4 2004, 11:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Aug 4 2004, 02:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Aug 4 2004, 02:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->OC's are used ALL the time, because they wear down marine armor<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There used more to expose marine movements. Wear down armor? You'd be better off getting a 30 res lerk, which can move about the map doing it's job (doing a better job mind you). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can only have one lerk, a couple of fades, and a skulk or two... after all is said and done the OC's come into play as the icing on the cake <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Correct... but the problem is that aliens have to hop from RT to RT defending from rambos and cannot afford OCs to delay/stop/Alert the alien team. You could afford... maybe one-two and not delay your teching dramaticly, which can be totally ignored with nearly no ill-effects. Marines simply need not care about their res nodes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No here is where you are wrong...
the OT's are useful in defending an area for a few good 10 seconds or so WHILE skulks protect the nodes...
Two OC's in a hive room makes a world of difference from preventing a rambo phase gate,
one OC's in cargo outside of fusion hive while you have a lerk, 2 fades, a skulk or two versus SG's makes a big difference, as marines will not want to focus their attention on the OC lest they be massacred by the fades, meanwhile their armor is constantly draining and the comm has to go nuts with medspam.
The simple reason OC's rock is because they are bullet spoonges, and one a marine loses his ammo, that is basically his <b>killing power</b> he loses untill his next reload, which can easily cost him his life.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
the only problem, why OCs suck, is because of their hitscan so Marines are able to destroy the OC around a corner. That´s just annoying and in my eyes it´s a bug that has to get fixed.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 5 2004, 01:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 5 2004, 01:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The simple reason OC's rock is because they are bullet spoonges, and one a marine loses his ammo, that is basically his <b>killing power</b> he loses untill his next reload, which can easily cost him his life. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So how would dropping the Hp and lowering the cost prevent this? instead of all the marines shooting one thing there will be a couple weaker things around them... preventing corner sniping.
OCs are bullet sponges only when they are in the area... not across the map or in some other room. Do you have every single room with at least one OC up around your hives/double res? I highly doubt it... a PG can fit into the tinyest of nooks cracks, and it spews out most of the marine team at a high rate. to have every room near possible PG sites with one OC would be impractical untill mid game at least.
Forlon where do you got the res from in Clanmatches to build OC´s ? I am the Permagorge in my Clan and i´ve engough to do to keep the res flowing by building RT´s. In the first 10 Mins there are no Res left over for building OC´s. But after 10 mins OC´s are pretty useless because the Game is almost over.
Maybe you lose as Alien because you build OC´s and no RT´s. I always try to keep 5 RT´s up which cost many Res. And another fact is that an RT cost only 5 Res more than an OC so why should i build an OC when my Team benefits more from an RT.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Two OC's in a hive room makes a world of difference from preventing a rambo phase gate, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you've been playing NS for awhile now Forlorn. I dont understand how you never saw so many instances where a commander drops the phasegate bwteeen the 2 OCS so they only shoot the structure. The marine sneaks it, gets hit once or twice then the OCS keep attacking the phasegate instead of the marine building it. Its built, Marines phase through. OCs are taken down Almost <u>INSTANTLY</u> from all that LMG fire, marines secure area. gg and the Phasegate lost only what? 2 bars?....
too many times have I seen this <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
looks like your 20 res spent on those OC's did absolutly nothing but give you 2 less bars to take down that PG, which would most likely being welded up by the time anyone actually responds to the 1 skulk who actually took the time to "look to see whats going on with the OCS" and is screaming on his/her mic that marines are dropping seiges -.-
<!--QuoteBegin-Diablus+Aug 5 2004, 10:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablus @ Aug 5 2004, 10:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Two OC's in a hive room makes a world of difference from preventing a rambo phase gate, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you've been playing NS for awhile now Forlorn. I dont understand how you never saw so many instances where a commander drops the phasegate bwteeen the 2 OCS so they only shoot the structure. The marine sneaks it, gets hit once or twice then the OCS keep attacking the phasegate instead of the marine building it. Its built, Marines phase through. OCs are taken down Almost <u>INSTANTLY</u> from all that LMG fire, marines secure area. gg and the Phasegate lost only what? 2 bars?....
too many times have I seen this <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
looks like your 20 res spent on those OC's did absolutly nothing but give you 2 less bars to take down that PG, which would most likely being welded up by the time anyone actually responds to the 1 skulk who actually took the time to "look to see whats going on with the OCS" and is screaming on his/her mic that marines are dropping seiges -.- <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's called alien support
The OC's are NOT there to hold it by themselves...
Use OC's in conjunction with other aliens, it works G-R-E-A-T!
Try it! People always complain that aliens have no ranged attacks... use OC's instead!
Just put OC's in a hot spot area. Then as skulk or fade out of marine line of sight.
Marines have an issue here:
1. They can shoot the OC, and once they are down on ammo skulks will rush them
2. Ignore the OC's but the skulks just stay hidden while OC's continually wear away at them
But in order for OC's to be effective, they <b>require your prescence!</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Forlon where do you got the res from in Clanmatches to build OC?s ? I am the Permagorge in my Clan and i?ve engough to do to keep the res flowing by building RT?s. In the first 10 Mins there are no Res left over for building OC?s. But after 10 mins OC?s are pretty useless because the Game is almost over.
Maybe you lose as Alien because you build OC?s and no RT?s. I always try to keep 5 RT?s up which cost many Res. And another fact is that an RT cost only 5 Res more than an OC so why should i build an OC when my Team benefits more from an RT.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The res to build OC's in clan matches is usually the gorge who puts up the hive and has around 6 res left over, I ask him to put up any OC's if he can. A gorge who recap's a node or two and has some leftover res? OC's!
Also a lot of the time's my clan has two gorges at the start, each puts down a node, then one stays gorge to save for OC's (or whatever), and the other saves for lerk.
And since when do I lose my alien rounds? My clan win's it's alien rounds... a lot in fact, I have no idea what you are talking about... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
www.ampednews.com you can find some demo's by #cri there
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And since when do I lose my alien rounds? My clan win's it's alien rounds... a lot in fact, I have no idea what you are talking about... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But lets Face it OC?s are not Costefficient in Clanmatches. There is alot more that you can build which is more useful for Example an RT which only cost 5 more Res.
OC effective HP = About 750-1000(Depending on testing) at hive 1. So figure however much armor/hp ratio, I dont know them very well personally. Against a lone marine it would take 1 LMG clip, 1 Pistol Clip, and a few swipes of a knife (Or just 2 LMG clips). After it's over it'll cost a medpack and a little time to reload, which isnt bad for 1 marine. Against 2 or more marines Oc's would be pretty much be the basic deterrent their meant to be.
OC Cost = 5 res. I really think this is needed, probably along with the starting res or 20 and gorge cost of 5.
This is all pretty much been said before, but lastlty I'd like to see a slight reduction in the area limit for OCs, which seems to be the biggest arguement against this, because if any alien is swarming with res they could effectivley make a massive WOL in no time with the reduced cost. I was thinking 6 chamber limit, or possibly even 5. The reduced cost will let the OC's be built more frequently, and the reduced area limit will prevent gianourmous walls from being crafted seemingly out of nowhwere.
Ahem - The issue isn't so much as 'what is the point of OCs', but 'What is the point of OCs COMPARED TO TURRETS?' The turret outguns and outperforms the OC in pretty much every way. Hell it even tells the commander when it's firing, OCs don't do that.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 6 2004, 12:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 6 2004, 12:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ahem - The issue isn't so much as 'what is the point of OCs', but 'What is the point of OCs COMPARED TO TURRETS?' The turret outguns and outperforms the OC in pretty much every way. Hell it even tells the commander when it's firing, OCs don't do that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And if you had read a thing I posted, you would realize that OC's are 10x better than turrets.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But lets Face it OC´s are not Costefficient in Clanmatches. There is alot more that you can build which is more useful for Example an RT which only cost 5 more Res.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are terribly wrong, there is a point where it is better to hold what you have instead of claiming more when on the alien's side.
If you have a second hive going up I'd much rather an OC or two to help protect the hive that's going up over another node.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 6 2004, 01:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 6 2004, 01:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 6 2004, 12:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 6 2004, 12:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ahem - The issue isn't so much as 'what is the point of OCs', but 'What is the point of OCs COMPARED TO TURRETS?' The turret outguns and outperforms the OC in pretty much every way. Hell it even tells the commander when it's firing, OCs don't do that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And if you had read a thing I posted, you would realize that OC's are 10x better than turrets.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Forlorn, in all due respsect, 90% of everything you say concerning game balance turns into two things:
1) You're wrong because you play on 32 player servers.
2) I'm right because I'm #cri.
Seriously, get off your god damn high horse. NO ONE gives a **** about the vets OR clans anymore. NS clan scene is dying, and good riddance to it - it'll clean up a lot of smelly garbage we have around here. Everything you say is FACT to you, something like: "It's a FACT that you're an idiot because EVERYONE KNOWS that OCs are OVERPOWERED." "It is ABSURD to say that OCs are weak because I know FOR FACT that in scrub pub games, YOU are an INFERIOR PLAYER."
Get over yourself, no one cares what you have to say anymore then the next person. In fact, since all you do is sit here like a freaking ROCK and prattle your mantra "I R CLANNAR I R SMART!!!!" I don't think ANYONE cares what you think about balance since apparently even though most people disagree you lower yourself to calling them idiots for disagreeing, and then usually slide in a comment about how pubs are for morons.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Aug 6 2004, 04:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Aug 6 2004, 04:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> While I do agree that NS should be made to accomodate larger servers, that was completely uncalled for.
You can agree with me that OCs are weak and need a boost, but you don't need to attack a player who is in fact, much better than both you and me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Funny thing is, if I search for servers right now, well over half of them are 17 players or less. In HIS mind, if you play on a pub, you play ONLY on G4B2S, you play with rambling idiots who don't know english, and your team consists of 11 people. And since this thought has been hammered through his skull since he became a vet, he's clung to the idea that since he's #cri he's somehow more right.
And I don't think that was uncalled for, not in the slightest - read through his posts. He specifically engineers every post so that not only does he tell everyone else that he is right, but he decides to force his point by pretending he has factual data to prove his point (which he never does) and call people morons and idiots for disagreeing with him. How many times in this thread has he taken a cheap shot at someone elses post?
"No here is where you are wrong..."
"The simple reason is..."
"It's called..."
"... if you had read a thing I posted, you would realize..."
"You are terribly wrong..."
All of these have the same thing in common - he talks DOWN to you, basically to make you feel like an idiot, without having ANYTHING TO PROVE AT ALL. He talks like "it's all fact and any SENSIBLE person would understand...", when in fact, all he's doing is giving his opinion, but flamebaiting everyone at the same time.
How much you want to be ol' Forlorn here read that and decided to adapt every single one of those in his posts?
So, what, he's 'more right' because he's 'better' then us? I care why? If you decided to listen to a random 'best player' in CS you'd have a game full of version 1.0 STEYERS. Just because you're good doesn't mean you're right, and just because you think you're right doesn't mean you are, and just because you're good and you think you're right doesn't mean you have the best intrest for the game. The top CS clans might think the Riot Shield is rediculous, but in your average pub, it's great, since it can offer substantial protection against better players, and even allow you to defeat them (which I've done more then once). The CS clans want it gone beacuse they can't feel as superior to you if you use it.
Oh god EEK you are one funny character, I can see the emotion coming out of your text.
Now, while you think I'm being on a high horse, I'm really not. Calm down, and look at how I present things:
1. State something is wrong, then go on to <b>explain</b> why it is wrong.
2. I explain my background, which is IMPORTANT, believe it or not. Someone who plays the game well knows what they are talking about from <b>experience</b>.
Now, you may think this is 'elitist', but the fact of the matter is internet lauguage (pure text) does not allow conversation to be presented in any other manner.
If you could hear me talk, then tone influctuations would go a great deal for keeping people like yourself from flipping out.
Anyhow, I stand by my point, OC's are incredible for this fact:
1. Aliens need to defend untill the second hive goes up
2. Marines need to attack
Do turrets help in attacking? no...
Do OC's help in defending? HELL YES
Are OC's powerful? Yes...
Do turrets deal a measly 10 points of damage and are time consuming to build and require marine presence to be effective, and require a lot of numbers of turrets to be effective? HELL YES
<a href='http://www.ampednews.com/?page=demos&id=133' target='_blank'>Here is some hard evidence.</a> This is a demo of #cri (old roster) versus exigent, currently CAL season 2 champs and #1 NS clan in the world. These guys are goood.
Next, the demo I posted is me in an alien round.
My role as an alien: Skulk, go fade, kill.
K? Now the real point of this demo is to watch how the OC's are used against the best clan in the world. We won this alien round for a tie. And the OC's were the only reason the second hive manged to go up, because it allowed us to hold ground. Watch <b>how</b> the OC's are used by skulks to kill <i>upgraded marines</i>.
When I see turrets, I think: lols.
When I see OC's, I think: Crap.
Because I KNOW that OC's require me to waste my firepower to kill them, which in tern gives the aliens the opprotunity to attack me. And all aliens need is one good shot to kill you.
Now you seem to think that since I'm a clanner I cannot understand pub games as well as you. False!
The fact is, I pub very often. Also, since I play in clans, my perspective is <b>greater</b> than yours because I can see more the game.
The next fact is, the problem with pubs is not that they are pubs, it is that NS does not scale well with bigger teamsizes. Why is this you ask?
Well, first of all, (this took me a long time to realize) the alien's res system scales perfectly with their teamsize.
Aliens needs a minimum of 1/3 of their team to drop nodes so they can tech faster than marines. They can drop more for even more res. Simple enough to understand.
The problem is, with larger teamsizes, 1/3 of your team as gorge means more nodes are required to be capped in order to stay competetive with the marine team.
This means more map control!
However, who has better map control at the start? Marines do. By far and large. It is very difficult to kill marines as aliens, especially in the early game. You basically have the hold marines back for fades and the second hive.
So the reason larger games are so unbalanced is simply because marines are better at taking the map than aliens are, yet at the same time aliens need more map control with larger teamsizes in order to have a decent res flow.
Anyone else here see the problem?
This is the ONLY descripency between 'pub' games and 'clan' games, which is teamsize. Other than that, we play the same damn game.
So please, will you be quiet about the whole 'clan' and 'pubber' thing. It's really ignorant and irks me a lot.
Now, back to OC's. In larger games, you have <b>more players</b> which require <b>more OC's</b> to compete with <b>more marine firepower</b>. Not a big deal. So I fail to see how OC's cannot be used in large games as well as small games.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 6 2004, 04:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 6 2004, 04:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, who has better map control at the start? Marines do. By far and large. It is very difficult to kill marines as aliens, especially in the early game. You basically have the hold marines back for fades and the second hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> My goodness.
I never thought I'd see this from forlorn. Wasn't it you that was saying that if the aliens don't control the map, it's their fault for not being skilled enough?
Maybe I'm remembering wrong.
At any rate, I fully agree with this set of logic. Unfortunately, it still means the same thing. OCs are not useful in pub games because in order to place more of them to deal with more firepower, aliens need more map control, but marines are better at map control in the early game.
Two ways to handle this: Change the res system, which I believe the devs have stated isn't likely, or hamper the marine's early map control.
To me, what strikes as a good way to hamper early map control is to give skulks a general boost, and then give marines a corresponding boost that works if they're in groups. Maybe some kind of speed boost if they're in groups (like drafting on a bicycle? I dunno) or my perennial favorite, a tiny bit of knockback on LMG fire.
If OCs are in enough quantity, they can, and will hold back a proportionate number of marines.
The game is imbalanced for larger servers, and the majority of servers are pretty damn big.
Resflow is the problem, and since we can't afford OCs in quantity, we simply conclude that they suckin larger servers (WHICH THEY DO).
I see where Forlorn is driving at. If you cheapen OCs, you imbalance the clan game. If you can somehow fix res flow for larger servers, OCs are again viable for helping us defend. The reason why turret farms are so effective in pub games is because marines can afford to drop tfac+4-5 turrets and that really holds back skulks. As aliens, we can't afford to do that without suffering in the long term.
However, I don't think there is a possible way to balance res flow for larger servers without breaking "an RT is an RT" rule, or completely overhauling all the maps in NS.
I do not think, with the current sets of confinements, that we will ever see both large pub and small clan play balanced.
EEK, sorry buddy, but you really are wrong on this one.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 6 2004, 12:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 6 2004, 12:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ahem - The issue isn't so much as 'what is the point of OCs', but 'What is the point of OCs COMPARED TO TURRETS?' The turret outguns and outperforms the OC in pretty much every way. Hell it even tells the commander when it's firing, OCs don't do that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> While I disagree that OCs are inferior to turrets, having an alert for an OC firing might be a good idea. Not an audio cue (which would be annoying), but having the OC change to a unique colour/shape on hive sight with an appropiate label. On pubs, I drop OCs half the time to act as early warning systems; you can't rely on a teammate making sure the marines don't try a sneak attack. If a marine or two just runs past the OC, though, no alarm goes up, which is a bit of a bummer.
Apart from this, and the fact that they can be sniped from around corners, I reckon OCs are fine.
I think OCs are fine, what I think isn't fine is the cost of gorges... now 5 would be a little low , but I think that 7 res for a cute little gorgie would be just about on track
and think about it then if you get 5 gorgies in a group, you could call yourselfs "Squad 7!" the ultamate anti-marine unit to kill and fronteirmen on the map
and another, thing....I see why theres a limit to how many ocs you can have in an area, but 8 Ocs is a bit low IMHO,
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Aug 6 2004, 09:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Aug 6 2004, 09:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm afraid Forlorn is right on this one.
I think we can all agree on this:
If OCs are in enough quantity, they can, and will hold back a proportionate number of marines.
The game is imbalanced for larger servers, and the majority of servers are pretty damn big.
Resflow is the problem, and since we can't afford OCs in quantity, we simply conclude that they suckin larger servers (WHICH THEY DO).
I see where Forlorn is driving at. If you cheapen OCs, you imbalance the clan game. If you can somehow fix res flow for larger servers, OCs are again viable for helping us defend. The reason why turret farms are so effective in pub games is because marines can afford to drop tfac+4-5 turrets and that really holds back skulks. As aliens, we can't afford to do that without suffering in the long term.
However, I don't think there is a possible way to balance res flow for larger servers without breaking "an RT is an RT" rule, or completely overhauling all the maps in NS.
I do not think, with the current sets of confinements, that we will ever see both large pub and small clan play balanced.
EEK, sorry buddy, but you really are wrong on this one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're telling me one skulk can take out 3 turrets like 1 marine can take out 3 OCs?
His entire argument on why OCs are good is that they 'wear down marines' which can be done with PARASITE (and it pisses them off too).
A marine can sit around a corner and shoot the OCs. Sure a skulk or two might wander by to check it out, but he'll probably have at least killed one. That's 10 res completely gone to kill ONE FREE MARINE. Plus, the gorge who built said OC won't even get res for kills from it.
An OC doesn't do jack crap to heavy armor. Likewise, turrets don't do crap to Onos or, to a lesser extent, Fades. Am I playing a different game then you Forlorn? Why in MY version of NS, do turrets actually shoot at and HIT skulks as they walk by at the end of a hall? Why do my turrets seem to track with near 100% precision a leaping skulk or a flying lerk? How come in my version I can literally jumpcrouch and dodge OC fire?
You say that the OCs greatest power is the fact that it DOESN'T kill marines. You say that the OCs greatest power is that it's WEAK. You say that the OCs are good because they are designed to die? Like I said before - I could dump Defense Chambers around instead of OCs and marines will probably shoot, or not shoot, them, and they'll do a lot more then the OC was.
It takes, by my estimate, 3 shotgun blasts pointblank to kill an OC. That means in one magazine of shotgun, I can kill 2 OCs, in only a few seconds. Keep in mind that hivesight not only rarely works as it's intended, but sometimes won't show you alerts at all, and I doubt the OCs would attract any attention once I kill them. Plus, you never addressed the point of dropping a cheap disposable structure to draw OC fire and ignoring them for the rest of the game while they whittle away at a turret factory or something.
I can set up a challenge map for you. It'll have 4 rooms. Room 1 is where you spawn, and in room 4 there's an armory, DC, and MC here. Then, the room has 2 halls that go to room 1 and room 2. In room 1 there's 50 res worth of turrets. In room 2 there's 50 res worth of OCs. Your challenge is to get to the other side of the room without dying, and get into room 4. Then, you have to go back and KILL all the structures.
1) The marine will have a much easier time getting across the room. Not only can he dodge OC fire, but he can use OC's as cover from OCs themselves.
2) The marine will kill the OCs and the skulk won't. He can just sit there and roast a turkey as he guns them down either by standing around the corner and peeking out, or standing in plain sight, and out of range.
What's your next reason that 'OCS ARE OVERPOWERED!'? Oh yeah 'You need to back them up with support'. Hmm I think that sort of defeats the point of the OC to begin with. First of all, if you have another player there, you don't need the OCs as an alarm chamber. Secondly, you're assuming it's one marine on 4 OCs. And what if he has a friend? Your support is assuming the marines are standing in front of the OCs, shooting them while getting hit with spikes. That doesn't happen. If I have to kill an OC I lean around corners and shoot the edges of it, or I take a shotgun and blow it to bits in 2 seconds. Am I scared an alien will come? If I'm killling it slowly with an LMG, yes. But I know when I use a shotgun, the 'Structure is under attack' alert will be long gone by the time the **** hivesight actually points out where the structure is. Kill the structure, and the alert dissapears. Neat.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do turrets help in attacking? no...
Do OC's help in defending? HELL YES
Are OC's powerful? Yes...
Do turrets deal a measly 10 points of damage and are time consuming to build and require marine presence to be effective, and require a lot of numbers of turrets to be effective? HELL YES<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why don't you finish that since you're trying to paint a picture that OCs are ovepowered or something.
Do turrets help in attacking? no...
Do OCs help in attacking? no...
Do OC's help in defending? YES
Do Turrets help in defending? YES
Do turrets deal a measly 10 points of damage and are time consuming to build and require marine presence to be effective, and require a lot of numbers of turrets to be effective?
Wait wait... you just SAID in your own posts that OCs need an ALIEN presence to be effective, DID YOU NOT? Secondly, you're saying a turret will build slower then an OC - I'm looking at the numbers right here - that's utterly false. Third, you're saying that turrets do a measly 10 points of damage?
1) Maybe you haven't played NS lately, but an LMG does a 'measly 10 points of damage'. Did you NOT JUST SAY that marines are HARD TO CONTROL EARLY GAME because they can kill skulks easier?
2) Did you also forget that turrets get stronger with upgrade levels now?
Also, requiring a lot of turrets means nothing - 1 res point to an alien is worth about 6 res to a commander, due to the fact that HE doesn't have to share it with his marines, the aliens do. A 10 res OC is economically draining to a gorge, and is more or less the equivilant of 6 turrets, (5 turrets maybe with the TFac). I've found this largely to be true. For every gorge you can usually throw out a lot of shotguns (This phenomenon is counteracted by the fact marines need to sink a ton of res into buildings and upgrades)
Finally, you need to remember that since permagorging is dead, more then likely you'll need to sink 10 res into gorging first... 20 res for a disposable alarm - Mmhmm yeah that's fair.
Who are you, George Bush? Why don't you make up your freaking mind.
Nice flaming without any real reason again EEK <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You're the one who really ought to take a different point of view. OC's are used differently than turrets. Is one skulk going to kill 5 turrets? No. Does that skulk even have to care that there are 5 turrets there? Probably not. Whereas those oc's are BUYING YOU TIME. IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN NS. THANX
EEK, since you still haven't read a thing I've posted I'll just respond to you with this <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=75872&view=findpost&p=1178540' target='_blank'>here.</a>
You do not seem to understand that OC's are much better with support than turrets are with support because if marines waste firepower on OC's then they are SKULKBAIT.
To use an OC effectively as a skulk, just camp around where the OC's are.
And don't say "But you need to move actively with the marines blah blah crap" because you just have to be sure your OC's are placed in hot spots, like your second hive location.
Since you cannot seem to comprehend of how to use OC's properly, <a href='http://www.ampednews.com/?page=demos&id=133' target='_blank'>http://www.ampednews.com/?page=demos&id=133</a> watch this demo, please.
How NOT to use OC's:
- Place them around and hope marines are braindead enough to walk in front of them and stand there while they die.
How to use OC's:
- Place OC's in chokepoints or other hotspots. Camp in the same area as a fade, skulk, etc. etc. and if marines are dumb enough to charge in watch them get massacred.
Just because OC's are simple and easy to kill without support is not a big deal. Turrets are better off by themselves without any marine support, but they are not as effective WITH support as OC's. In the end, what matters is what is the most effective way to use something, not the most simplistic way.
EDIT:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Who are you, George Bush? Why don't you make up your freaking mind. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't you mean John Kerry? I thought he's the flip flop by sterotype.
Comments
There used more to expose marine movements. Wear down armor? You'd be better off getting a 30 res lerk, which can move about the map doing it's job (doing a better job mind you). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can only have one lerk, a couple of fades, and a skulk or two... after all is said and done the OC's come into play as the icing on the cake
There used more to expose marine movements. Wear down armor? You'd be better off getting a 30 res lerk, which can move about the map doing it's job (doing a better job mind you). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can only have one lerk, a couple of fades, and a skulk or two... after all is said and done the OC's come into play as the icing on the cake <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correct... but the problem is that aliens have to hop from RT to RT defending from rambos and cannot afford OCs to delay/stop/Alert the alien team. You could afford... maybe one-two and not delay your teching dramaticly, which can be totally ignored with nearly no ill-effects. Marines simply need not care about their res nodes.
Why can the marines ignore their res being destroyed? A marine RT costs 15 res, and can be quickly built by any nearby marine. A alien RT needs a 10 res gorging cost (thus increasing the risk and time needed to build a RT), THEN 15 additional res (from a individual res pool mind you). Marines can rebuild early game... aliens can't. Thus if marine rambos run about the map slaughtering alien nodes, and the skulks destroy all the marine nodes... who wins? Marines thats who. Besides... who needs RTs when you have all that glorious RFK that your marines reap in?
a fun thing to do to a turret farm if uve got extra rez and theyr arnt any sieges in it is go gorge,
run out in the open next to the farm, drop 3 or so oc's as a shield to protect and and a dc behind you. and just healspray while you build the oc's.
give it a minute or 2 and the turret farms gone.
my point is, oc's are just fine, although id love for em to be a tad more acurate and not miss moving targets so much.
all i thinks need is lowered just 1 or 2 res to 9 or 8.
when the games goin if ur teams co-operated well and cap'd a decent amount of rt's then u can get oc's at a fair pace, the problem is at the start of the game with a gorge only being able to drop 1 oc before the 1st of the marines start showing up. because u still need 5 more res for the 2nd.
if you just lowered it to 9 ud only need 3 res and will most likely have it by the time u finished building the 1st
or 8 and be able to drop 2 straight of.
neither number would make much of a diference later, but it would help gorges get something that can at least stop 1 marine at the start.
at the moment the only really effective way to get oc's early is for gorges to pair up, so you can drop 2 right away, and make that 4 a few minutes later hoping you dont get rushed inbetween
a fun thing to do to a turret farm if uve got extra rez and theyr arnt any sieges in it is go gorge,
run out in the open next to the farm, drop 3 or so oc's as a shield to protect and and <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>a dc behind you. and just healspray while you build the oc's.</b></span>
give it a minute or 2 and the turret farms gone.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the only reason this statement makes OCs sound tougher is the fact that they are being healed while they shoot.
try doing this without any healing, and see if the results are the same
who needs RTs when you have all that glorious RFK that your marines reap in? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bingo! root of all evils
There used more to expose marine movements. Wear down armor? You'd be better off getting a 30 res lerk, which can move about the map doing it's job (doing a better job mind you). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can only have one lerk, a couple of fades, and a skulk or two... after all is said and done the OC's come into play as the icing on the cake <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correct... but the problem is that aliens have to hop from RT to RT defending from rambos and cannot afford OCs to delay/stop/Alert the alien team. You could afford... maybe one-two and not delay your teching dramaticly, which can be totally ignored with nearly no ill-effects. Marines simply need not care about their res nodes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No here is where you are wrong...
the OT's are useful in defending an area for a few good 10 seconds or so WHILE skulks protect the nodes...
Two OC's in a hive room makes a world of difference from preventing a rambo phase gate,
one OC's in cargo outside of fusion hive while you have a lerk, 2 fades, a skulk or two versus SG's makes a big difference, as marines will not want to focus their attention on the OC lest they be massacred by the fades, meanwhile their armor is constantly draining and the comm has to go nuts with medspam.
The simple reason OC's rock is because they are bullet spoonges, and one a marine loses his ammo, that is basically his <b>killing power</b> he loses untill his next reload, which can easily cost him his life.
So how would dropping the Hp and lowering the cost prevent this? instead of all the marines shooting one thing there will be a couple weaker things around them... preventing corner sniping.
OCs are bullet sponges only when they are in the area... not across the map or in some other room. Do you have every single room with at least one OC up around your hives/double res? I highly doubt it... a PG can fit into the tinyest of nooks cracks, and it spews out most of the marine team at a high rate. to have every room near possible PG sites with one OC would be impractical untill mid game at least.
I am the Permagorge in my Clan and i´ve engough to do to keep the res flowing by building RT´s. In the first 10 Mins there are no Res left over for building OC´s.
But after 10 mins OC´s are pretty useless because the Game is almost over.
Maybe you lose as Alien because you build OC´s and no RT´s.
I always try to keep 5 RT´s up which cost many Res.
And another fact is that an RT cost only 5 Res more than an OC so why should i build an OC when my Team benefits more from an RT.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you've been playing NS for awhile now Forlorn. I dont understand how you never saw so many instances where a commander drops the phasegate bwteeen the 2 OCS so they only shoot the structure. The marine sneaks it, gets hit once or twice then the OCS keep attacking the phasegate instead of the marine building it. Its built, Marines phase through. OCs are taken down Almost <u>INSTANTLY</u> from all that LMG fire, marines secure area. gg and the Phasegate lost only what? 2 bars?....
too many times have I seen this <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
looks like your 20 res spent on those OC's did absolutly nothing but give you 2 less bars to take down that PG, which would most likely being welded up by the time anyone actually responds to the 1 skulk who actually took the time to "look to see whats going on with the OCS" and is screaming on his/her mic that marines are dropping seiges -.-
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you've been playing NS for awhile now Forlorn. I dont understand how you never saw so many instances where a commander drops the phasegate bwteeen the 2 OCS so they only shoot the structure. The marine sneaks it, gets hit once or twice then the OCS keep attacking the phasegate instead of the marine building it. Its built, Marines phase through. OCs are taken down Almost <u>INSTANTLY</u> from all that LMG fire, marines secure area. gg and the Phasegate lost only what? 2 bars?....
too many times have I seen this <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
looks like your 20 res spent on those OC's did absolutly nothing but give you 2 less bars to take down that PG, which would most likely being welded up by the time anyone actually responds to the 1 skulk who actually took the time to "look to see whats going on with the OCS" and is screaming on his/her mic that marines are dropping seiges -.- <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's called alien support
The OC's are NOT there to hold it by themselves...
Use OC's in conjunction with other aliens, it works G-R-E-A-T!
Try it! People always complain that aliens have no ranged attacks... use OC's instead!
Just put OC's in a hot spot area. Then as skulk or fade out of marine line of sight.
Marines have an issue here:
1. They can shoot the OC, and once they are down on ammo skulks will rush them
2. Ignore the OC's but the skulks just stay hidden while OC's continually wear away at them
But in order for OC's to be effective, they <b>require your prescence!</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Forlon where do you got the res from in Clanmatches to build OC?s ?
I am the Permagorge in my Clan and i?ve engough to do to keep the res flowing by building RT?s. In the first 10 Mins there are no Res left over for building OC?s.
But after 10 mins OC?s are pretty useless because the Game is almost over.
Maybe you lose as Alien because you build OC?s and no RT?s.
I always try to keep 5 RT?s up which cost many Res.
And another fact is that an RT cost only 5 Res more than an OC so why should i build an OC when my Team benefits more from an RT.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The res to build OC's in clan matches is usually the gorge who puts up the hive and has around 6 res left over, I ask him to put up any OC's if he can. A gorge who recap's a node or two and has some leftover res? OC's!
Also a lot of the time's my clan has two gorges at the start, each puts down a node, then one stays gorge to save for OC's (or whatever), and the other saves for lerk.
And since when do I lose my alien rounds? My clan win's it's alien rounds... a lot in fact, I have no idea what you are talking about... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
www.ampednews.com you can find some demo's by #cri there
And since when do I lose my alien rounds? My clan win's it's alien rounds... a lot in fact, I have no idea what you are talking about... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems i got something wrong <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But lets Face it OC?s are not Costefficient in Clanmatches. There is alot more that you can build which is more useful for Example an RT which only cost 5 more Res.
OC effective HP = About 750-1000(Depending on testing) at hive 1. So figure however much armor/hp ratio, I dont know them very well personally. Against a lone marine it would take 1 LMG clip, 1 Pistol Clip, and a few swipes of a knife (Or just 2 LMG clips). After it's over it'll cost a medpack and a little time to reload, which isnt bad for 1 marine. Against 2 or more marines Oc's would be pretty much be the basic deterrent their meant to be.
OC Cost = 5 res. I really think this is needed, probably along with the starting res or 20 and gorge cost of 5.
This is all pretty much been said before, but lastlty I'd like to see a slight reduction in the area limit for OCs, which seems to be the biggest arguement against this, because if any alien is swarming with res they could effectivley make a massive WOL in no time with the reduced cost. I was thinking 6 chamber limit, or possibly even 5. The reduced cost will let the OC's be built more frequently, and the reduced area limit will prevent gianourmous walls from being crafted seemingly out of nowhwere.
And if you had read a thing I posted, you would realize that OC's are 10x better than turrets.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But lets Face it OC´s are not Costefficient in Clanmatches. There is alot more that you can build which is more useful for Example an RT which only cost 5 more Res.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are terribly wrong, there is a point where it is better to hold what you have instead of claiming more when on the alien's side.
If you have a second hive going up I'd much rather an OC or two to help protect the hive that's going up over another node.
And if you had read a thing I posted, you would realize that OC's are 10x better than turrets.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forlorn, in all due respsect, 90% of everything you say concerning game balance turns into two things:
1) You're wrong because you play on 32 player servers.
2) I'm right because I'm #cri.
Seriously, get off your god damn high horse. NO ONE gives a **** about the vets OR clans anymore. NS clan scene is dying, and good riddance to it - it'll clean up a lot of smelly garbage we have around here. Everything you say is FACT to you, something like: "It's a FACT that you're an idiot because EVERYONE KNOWS that OCs are OVERPOWERED." "It is ABSURD to say that OCs are weak because I know FOR FACT that in scrub pub games, YOU are an INFERIOR PLAYER."
Get over yourself, no one cares what you have to say anymore then the next person. In fact, since all you do is sit here like a freaking ROCK and prattle your mantra "I R CLANNAR I R SMART!!!!" I don't think ANYONE cares what you think about balance since apparently even though most people disagree you lower yourself to calling them idiots for disagreeing, and then usually slide in a comment about how pubs are for morons.
You can agree with me that OCs are weak and need a boost, but you don't need to attack a player who is in fact, much better than both you and me.
You can agree with me that OCs are weak and need a boost, but you don't need to attack a player who is in fact, much better than both you and me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny thing is, if I search for servers right now, well over half of them are 17 players or less. In HIS mind, if you play on a pub, you play ONLY on G4B2S, you play with rambling idiots who don't know english, and your team consists of 11 people. And since this thought has been hammered through his skull since he became a vet, he's clung to the idea that since he's #cri he's somehow more right.
And I don't think that was uncalled for, not in the slightest - read through his posts. He specifically engineers every post so that not only does he tell everyone else that he is right, but he decides to force his point by pretending he has factual data to prove his point (which he never does) and call people morons and idiots for disagreeing with him. How many times in this thread has he taken a cheap shot at someone elses post?
"No here is where you are wrong..."
"The simple reason is..."
"It's called..."
"... if you had read a thing I posted, you would realize..."
"You are terribly wrong..."
All of these have the same thing in common - he talks DOWN to you, basically to make you feel like an idiot, without having ANYTHING TO PROVE AT ALL. He talks like "it's all fact and any SENSIBLE person would understand...", when in fact, all he's doing is giving his opinion, but flamebaiting everyone at the same time.
<a href='http://www.vandruff.com/art_converse.html' target='_blank'>http://www.vandruff.com/art_converse.html</a>
How much you want to be ol' Forlorn here read that and decided to adapt every single one of those in his posts?
So, what, he's 'more right' because he's 'better' then us? I care why? If you decided to listen to a random 'best player' in CS you'd have a game full of version 1.0 STEYERS. Just because you're good doesn't mean you're right, and just because you think you're right doesn't mean you are, and just because you're good and you think you're right doesn't mean you have the best intrest for the game. The top CS clans might think the Riot Shield is rediculous, but in your average pub, it's great, since it can offer substantial protection against better players, and even allow you to defeat them (which I've done more then once). The CS clans want it gone beacuse they can't feel as superior to you if you use it.
Now, while you think I'm being on a high horse, I'm really not. Calm down, and look at how I present things:
1. State something is wrong, then go on to <b>explain</b> why it is wrong.
2. I explain my background, which is IMPORTANT, believe it or not. Someone who plays the game well knows what they are talking about from <b>experience</b>.
Now, you may think this is 'elitist', but the fact of the matter is internet lauguage (pure text) does not allow conversation to be presented in any other manner.
If you could hear me talk, then tone influctuations would go a great deal for keeping people like yourself from flipping out.
Anyhow, I stand by my point, OC's are incredible for this fact:
1. Aliens need to defend untill the second hive goes up
2. Marines need to attack
Do turrets help in attacking? no...
Do OC's help in defending? HELL YES
Are OC's powerful? Yes...
Do turrets deal a measly 10 points of damage and are time consuming to build and require marine presence to be effective, and require a lot of numbers of turrets to be effective? HELL YES
<a href='http://www.ampednews.com/?page=demos&id=133' target='_blank'>Here is some hard evidence.</a> This is a demo of #cri (old roster) versus exigent, currently CAL season 2 champs and #1 NS clan in the world. These guys are goood.
Next, the demo I posted is me in an alien round.
My role as an alien: Skulk, go fade, kill.
K? Now the real point of this demo is to watch how the OC's are used against the best clan in the world. We won this alien round for a tie. And the OC's were the only reason the second hive manged to go up, because it allowed us to hold ground. Watch <b>how</b> the OC's are used by skulks to kill <i>upgraded marines</i>.
When I see turrets, I think: lols.
When I see OC's, I think: Crap.
Because I KNOW that OC's require me to waste my firepower to kill them, which in tern gives the aliens the opprotunity to attack me. And all aliens need is one good shot to kill you.
Now you seem to think that since I'm a clanner I cannot understand pub games as well as you.
False!
The fact is, I pub very often. Also, since I play in clans, my perspective is <b>greater</b> than yours because I can see more the game.
The next fact is, the problem with pubs is not that they are pubs, it is that NS does not scale well with bigger teamsizes. Why is this you ask?
Well, first of all, (this took me a long time to realize) the alien's res system scales perfectly with their teamsize.
Aliens needs a minimum of 1/3 of their team to drop nodes so they can tech faster than marines. They can drop more for even more res. Simple enough to understand.
The problem is, with larger teamsizes, 1/3 of your team as gorge means more nodes are required to be capped in order to stay competetive with the marine team.
This means more map control!
However, who has better map control at the start? Marines do. By far and large. It is very difficult to kill marines as aliens, especially in the early game. You basically have the hold marines back for fades and the second hive.
So the reason larger games are so unbalanced is simply because marines are better at taking the map than aliens are, yet at the same time aliens need more map control with larger teamsizes in order to have a decent res flow.
Anyone else here see the problem?
This is the ONLY descripency between 'pub' games and 'clan' games, which is teamsize. Other than that, we play the same damn game.
So please, will you be quiet about the whole 'clan' and 'pubber' thing. It's really ignorant and irks me a lot.
Now, back to OC's. In larger games, you have <b>more players</b> which require <b>more OC's</b> to compete with <b>more marine firepower</b>. Not a big deal. So I fail to see how OC's cannot be used in large games as well as small games.
D:
My goodness.
I never thought I'd see this from forlorn.
Wasn't it you that was saying that if the aliens don't control the map, it's their fault for not being skilled enough?
Maybe I'm remembering wrong.
At any rate, I fully agree with this set of logic.
Unfortunately, it still means the same thing. OCs are not useful in pub games because in order to place more of them to deal with more firepower, aliens need more map control, but marines are better at map control in the early game.
Two ways to handle this: Change the res system, which I believe the devs have stated isn't likely, or hamper the marine's early map control.
To me, what strikes as a good way to hamper early map control is to give skulks a general boost, and then give marines a corresponding boost that works if they're in groups. Maybe some kind of speed boost if they're in groups (like drafting on a bicycle? I dunno) or my perennial favorite, a tiny bit of knockback on LMG fire.
I think we can all agree on this:
If OCs are in enough quantity, they can, and will hold back a proportionate number of marines.
The game is imbalanced for larger servers, and the majority of servers are pretty damn big.
Resflow is the problem, and since we can't afford OCs in quantity, we simply conclude that they suckin larger servers (WHICH THEY DO).
I see where Forlorn is driving at. If you cheapen OCs, you imbalance the clan game. If you can somehow fix res flow for larger servers, OCs are again viable for helping us defend. The reason why turret farms are so effective in pub games is because marines can afford to drop tfac+4-5 turrets and that really holds back skulks. As aliens, we can't afford to do that without suffering in the long term.
However, I don't think there is a possible way to balance res flow for larger servers without breaking "an RT is an RT" rule, or completely overhauling all the maps in NS.
I do not think, with the current sets of confinements, that we will ever see both large pub and small clan play balanced.
EEK, sorry buddy, but you really are wrong on this one.
While I disagree that OCs are inferior to turrets, having an alert for an OC firing might be a good idea. Not an audio cue (which would be annoying), but having the OC change to a unique colour/shape on hive sight with an appropiate label. On pubs, I drop OCs half the time to act as early warning systems; you can't rely on a teammate making sure the marines don't try a sneak attack. If a marine or two just runs past the OC, though, no alarm goes up, which is a bit of a bummer.
Apart from this, and the fact that they can be sniped from around corners, I reckon OCs are fine.
and think about it then if you get 5 gorgies in a group, you could call yourselfs "Squad 7!" the ultamate anti-marine unit to kill and fronteirmen on the map
and another, thing....I see why theres a limit to how many ocs you can have in an area, but 8 Ocs is a bit low IMHO,
I think we can all agree on this:
If OCs are in enough quantity, they can, and will hold back a proportionate number of marines.
The game is imbalanced for larger servers, and the majority of servers are pretty damn big.
Resflow is the problem, and since we can't afford OCs in quantity, we simply conclude that they suckin larger servers (WHICH THEY DO).
I see where Forlorn is driving at. If you cheapen OCs, you imbalance the clan game. If you can somehow fix res flow for larger servers, OCs are again viable for helping us defend. The reason why turret farms are so effective in pub games is because marines can afford to drop tfac+4-5 turrets and that really holds back skulks. As aliens, we can't afford to do that without suffering in the long term.
However, I don't think there is a possible way to balance res flow for larger servers without breaking "an RT is an RT" rule, or completely overhauling all the maps in NS.
I do not think, with the current sets of confinements, that we will ever see both large pub and small clan play balanced.
EEK, sorry buddy, but you really are wrong on this one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're telling me one skulk can take out 3 turrets like 1 marine can take out 3 OCs?
His entire argument on why OCs are good is that they 'wear down marines' which can be done with PARASITE (and it pisses them off too).
A marine can sit around a corner and shoot the OCs. Sure a skulk or two might wander by to check it out, but he'll probably have at least killed one. That's 10 res completely gone to kill ONE FREE MARINE. Plus, the gorge who built said OC won't even get res for kills from it.
An OC doesn't do jack crap to heavy armor. Likewise, turrets don't do crap to Onos or, to a lesser extent, Fades. Am I playing a different game then you Forlorn? Why in MY version of NS, do turrets actually shoot at and HIT skulks as they walk by at the end of a hall? Why do my turrets seem to track with near 100% precision a leaping skulk or a flying lerk? How come in my version I can literally jumpcrouch and dodge OC fire?
You say that the OCs greatest power is the fact that it DOESN'T kill marines. You say that the OCs greatest power is that it's WEAK. You say that the OCs are good because they are designed to die? Like I said before - I could dump Defense Chambers around instead of OCs and marines will probably shoot, or not shoot, them, and they'll do a lot more then the OC was.
It takes, by my estimate, 3 shotgun blasts pointblank to kill an OC. That means in one magazine of shotgun, I can kill 2 OCs, in only a few seconds. Keep in mind that hivesight not only rarely works as it's intended, but sometimes won't show you alerts at all, and I doubt the OCs would attract any attention once I kill them. Plus, you never addressed the point of dropping a cheap disposable structure to draw OC fire and ignoring them for the rest of the game while they whittle away at a turret factory or something.
I can set up a challenge map for you. It'll have 4 rooms. Room 1 is where you spawn, and in room 4 there's an armory, DC, and MC here. Then, the room has 2 halls that go to room 1 and room 2. In room 1 there's 50 res worth of turrets. In room 2 there's 50 res worth of OCs. Your challenge is to get to the other side of the room without dying, and get into room 4. Then, you have to go back and KILL all the structures.
1) The marine will have a much easier time getting across the room. Not only can he dodge OC fire, but he can use OC's as cover from OCs themselves.
2) The marine will kill the OCs and the skulk won't. He can just sit there and roast a turkey as he guns them down either by standing around the corner and peeking out, or standing in plain sight, and out of range.
What's your next reason that 'OCS ARE OVERPOWERED!'? Oh yeah 'You need to back them up with support'. Hmm I think that sort of defeats the point of the OC to begin with. First of all, if you have another player there, you don't need the OCs as an alarm chamber. Secondly, you're assuming it's one marine on 4 OCs. And what if he has a friend? Your support is assuming the marines are standing in front of the OCs, shooting them while getting hit with spikes. That doesn't happen. If I have to kill an OC I lean around corners and shoot the edges of it, or I take a shotgun and blow it to bits in 2 seconds. Am I scared an alien will come? If I'm killling it slowly with an LMG, yes. But I know when I use a shotgun, the 'Structure is under attack' alert will be long gone by the time the **** hivesight actually points out where the structure is. Kill the structure, and the alert dissapears. Neat.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do turrets help in attacking? no...
Do OC's help in defending? HELL YES
Are OC's powerful? Yes...
Do turrets deal a measly 10 points of damage and are time consuming to build and require marine presence to be effective, and require a lot of numbers of turrets to be effective? HELL YES<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why don't you finish that since you're trying to paint a picture that OCs are ovepowered or something.
Do turrets help in attacking? no...
Do OCs help in attacking? no...
Do OC's help in defending? YES
Do Turrets help in defending? YES
Do turrets deal a measly 10 points of damage and are time consuming to build and require marine presence to be effective, and require a lot of numbers of turrets to be effective?
Wait wait... you just SAID in your own posts that OCs need an ALIEN presence to be effective, DID YOU NOT? Secondly, you're saying a turret will build slower then an OC - I'm looking at the numbers right here - that's utterly false. Third, you're saying that turrets do a measly 10 points of damage?
1) Maybe you haven't played NS lately, but an LMG does a 'measly 10 points of damage'. Did you NOT JUST SAY that marines are HARD TO CONTROL EARLY GAME because they can kill skulks easier?
2) Did you also forget that turrets get stronger with upgrade levels now?
Also, requiring a lot of turrets means nothing - 1 res point to an alien is worth about 6 res to a commander, due to the fact that HE doesn't have to share it with his marines, the aliens do. A 10 res OC is economically draining to a gorge, and is more or less the equivilant of 6 turrets, (5 turrets maybe with the TFac). I've found this largely to be true. For every gorge you can usually throw out a lot of shotguns (This phenomenon is counteracted by the fact marines need to sink a ton of res into buildings and upgrades)
Finally, you need to remember that since permagorging is dead, more then likely you'll need to sink 10 res into gorging first... 20 res for a disposable alarm - Mmhmm yeah that's fair.
Who are you, George Bush? Why don't you make up your freaking mind.
You're the one who really ought to take a different point of view. OC's are used differently than turrets. Is one skulk going to kill 5 turrets? No. Does that skulk even have to care that there are 5 turrets there? Probably not. Whereas those oc's are BUYING YOU TIME. IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN NS. THANX
You do not seem to understand that OC's are much better with support than turrets are with support because if marines waste firepower on OC's then they are SKULKBAIT.
To use an OC effectively as a skulk, just camp around where the OC's are.
And don't say "But you need to move actively with the marines blah blah crap" because you just have to be sure your OC's are placed in hot spots, like your second hive location.
Since you cannot seem to comprehend of how to use OC's properly, <a href='http://www.ampednews.com/?page=demos&id=133' target='_blank'>http://www.ampednews.com/?page=demos&id=133</a> watch this demo, please.
How NOT to use OC's:
- Place them around and hope marines are braindead enough to walk in front of them and stand there while they die.
How to use OC's:
- Place OC's in chokepoints or other hotspots. Camp in the same area as a fade, skulk, etc. etc. and if marines are dumb enough to charge in watch them get massacred.
Just because OC's are simple and easy to kill without support is not a big deal. Turrets are better off by themselves without any marine support, but they are not as effective WITH support as OC's. In the end, what matters is what is the most effective way to use something, not the most simplistic way.
EDIT:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Who are you, George Bush? Why don't you make up your freaking mind. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't you mean John Kerry? I thought he's the flip flop by sterotype.