<!--QuoteBegin-kabab+Jul 13 2004, 01:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kabab @ Jul 13 2004, 01:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A made a rather direct thread about this in the constilation forum where many good solutions came up..... <b>BUT NOT ONE DEV MADE A COMMENT OR ACKOWNLEDGED THERE WAS A PROBLEM SO STOP WASTING YOUR TIME WITH THIS THREAD THE DEV'S DON'T CARE</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You should see who was at the server with 14v14 in ns_eclipse <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> . On aliens.
Well, one of the reasons marines win is yes, the res flow, RFK favors marines more, equal skill marine > skulk. Exteamly hard to coordinate a large alien team, faster spawn rate off the start for marines, assuming 2 IPs are dropped at the start, and I never see a comm not do that in a large game. Upgrades are magified by the large team, easier marine expansion, some of the not so best maps for large games.
These are alot of the reasons that aliens lose alot, that and marines are usualy easier, and more friendly for newer people who have played FPS.
<!--QuoteBegin-sprouts42+Jul 13 2004, 07:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sprouts42 @ Jul 13 2004, 07:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> NS is rubbish 6v6. The game should be made to take into context that most pub games are 12-20 slot games. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 6v6 is ideal. And most (99%) of clanners will tell you scrimmng in a 6v6 ff on team based game is twice as fun as a pub. They have the benefit of playing in scrims and pubs lots. All the pubbers that say stuff like this don't have the benefit of both worlds so they can't make silly accusations like this and not be called on it. Not flaming here, it's just that most clanners have played longer, enjoy the game more, understand it better and will be playing it when most pubbers leave. Seems to me that they may know something you don't.
<!--QuoteBegin-IceBaron+Jul 14 2004, 01:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (IceBaron @ Jul 14 2004, 01:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-sprouts42+Jul 13 2004, 07:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sprouts42 @ Jul 13 2004, 07:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> NS is rubbish 6v6. The game should be made to take into context that most pub games are 12-20 slot games. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 6v6 is ideal. And most (99%) of clanners will tell you scrimmng in a 6v6 ff on team based game is twice as fun as a pub. They have the benefit of playing in scrims and pubs lots. All the pubbers that say stuff like this don't have the benefit of both worlds so they can't make silly accusations like this and not be called on it. Not flaming here, it's just that most clanners have played longer, enjoy the game more, understand it better and will be playing it when most pubbers leave. Seems to me that they may know something you don't. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I am the com for one of the top 4 clans in Australia so you can say i have played my fair share of 6v6 clan matches of a fairly high standard and they are great fun...
BUT the most memorable and forefilling matches i have played are thoes epic 24 player games with massive battles just to gain control of a small part of the map..
Petco maybe they did read my threads <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> they could have made a comment <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-kabab+Jul 14 2004, 04:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kabab @ Jul 14 2004, 04:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-IceBaron+Jul 14 2004, 01:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (IceBaron @ Jul 14 2004, 01:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-sprouts42+Jul 13 2004, 07:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sprouts42 @ Jul 13 2004, 07:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> NS is rubbish 6v6. The game should be made to take into context that most pub games are 12-20 slot games. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 6v6 is ideal. And most (99%) of clanners will tell you scrimmng in a 6v6 ff on team based game is twice as fun as a pub. They have the benefit of playing in scrims and pubs lots. All the pubbers that say stuff like this don't have the benefit of both worlds so they can't make silly accusations like this and not be called on it. Not flaming here, it's just that most clanners have played longer, enjoy the game more, understand it better and will be playing it when most pubbers leave. Seems to me that they may know something you don't. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am the com for one of the top 4 clans in Australia so you can say i have played my fair share of 6v6 clan matches of a fairly high standard and they are great fun...
BUT the most memorable and forefilling matches i have played are thoes epic 24 player games with massive battles just to gain control of a small part of the map..
Petco maybe they did read my threads <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> they could have made a comment <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> BUT, are you saying that if they were to pick a number to balance it should be a 24 person game or do you agree with the 6v6?
<!--QuoteBegin-kabab+Jul 14 2004, 09:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kabab @ Jul 14 2004, 09:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It can be balanced for both very easily....
Simply scale the aliens respawn rate and res income with size... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> that take some trail and error, but doable
The thing about increasing res inflow would be that in a 10vs10, you could afford to ae at least 5 gorges, so the map will be oc heaven with the amount of res coming in.
Not to add that oc's are ****, but enough of them will stop the best rine team.
I think Slink made a good post on the first page of this thread that indicated that balancing just the res and the spawn rate would <i>not</i> fix large game balance as easily as it might seem.
Try FF on. It should limit marines ranged weapons because it is not nice to shoot your teammates. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-tuutti220+Jul 14 2004, 12:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tuutti220 @ Jul 14 2004, 12:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Try FF on. It should limit marines ranged weapons because it is not nice to shoot your teammates. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> in some cases you should just keep shooting anyway
and most people won't care anyhow <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
edited July 2004
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I didn't state if it was true or not, I just said the argument of "don't play on odd sized servers" is a very bad one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No argument from me..
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It can be balanced for both very easily....
Simply scale the aliens respawn rate and res income with size... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately this would not solve nearly any of the issues we are seeing.
Marines have the ability with more concentrated fire to destroy anything with few upgrades. Alien RT's are like butter to a squad of 5 w1 marines...
Marines have the ability because of sheer numbers to hold more positions on the map. If you can have 3 sets of 3 marines in 3 different choke points on a map. The game is over. (10 v10 example)
The number of long hallways (thereby allowing more concentrated fire) make assaults on chokepoints by many aliens simply not possible.
The fact that marines get armour 1 for 12 marines for the cost of 20 res for the entire game, while it costs 12 aliens 24 res each life for them all to have carapace shows additional issues.
Higher-lifeform aliens are less effective because they run into more large groups of marines. Example: in a 6 v 6, if 5 marines chase a fade the rest of the alien team knows every other spot on the map is undefended so they can attack marine start/nodes/turret farms.. In that same situation in a 12 v 12 5 marines can still chase a fade while 5 additional marines make a frontal assault on the hive or hold 2 hive locations with 2 teams of 3. Aliens can't make headway against that.
There are many other issues that I could speak to, but I think you get the gist of what I'm saying.
---------- Here is an example of why it's not as simple as tweaking a number here and a number there.
The first step is once an issue has been identified, is how do we fix it? Ok, in our example.. the solution is increased res flow as the teams grow larger. This helps aliens fade faster, build faster etc. But how much do we increase it? So it's a matter of picking a number then testing it, tweaking it, and finally saying "Ok we have a value that seems to work", so that's set.
But now aliens are winning every round because the marine res is out of whack. So we adjust that, and tweak that and test that...
Oh but with the increased res flow now marines can get a1 30 seconds into a match along with an obs, a tf etc.. So now we have to deal with the arms lab issues and technology costs..
But with the increased res flow now if all aliens go gorge they can cap every node on the board within 1 minute and have enough res to have 3 fades within 2 minutes. So now we have to revisit the res issue for aliens.
And so on and so on.. Every change has to then be tested before it's released else the dev team angers the NS community at large.. with "OMG large games are messed up, aliens win every time"..
And for the coup de grace... Once you have completed this and 10 v 10 and 12 v 12 are perfect... You go back to 6 v 6 and because of a change you made to supplement larger games it's now out of balance.
This is the inevitable cycle of balancing a game like NS.
Add to this, other bug fixes, which may again change the balance (if crouching fades were fixed for example) and other bugs that may appear, throw this whole process off and require each step to be revisited to see if any additional tweaking needs to be made...
The good news is the PT's, devs and everyone else knows it's a problem so we are going to be looking at solutions as we can.
Marine groups on pubs get eachother killed even with FF off - the magical FF nanites stop any bullet connectiong to a marine from doing damage to aliens in the first place, so it ends up being almost the same thing.
<!--QuoteBegin-Salvation+Jul 14 2004, 10:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Salvation @ Jul 14 2004, 10:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-tuutti220+Jul 14 2004, 12:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tuutti220 @ Jul 14 2004, 12:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Try FF on. It should limit marines ranged weapons because it is not nice to shoot your teammates. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> in some cases you should just keep shooting anyway
and most people won't care anyhow <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Marine sees skulk, marine shoots with hmg. Marine kills 3 other team mates with the skulk. Marine says it was too dark to see.
<!--QuoteBegin-waller+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (waller)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The thing about increasing res inflow would be that in a 10vs10, you could afford to ae at least 5 gorges, so the map will be oc heaven with the amount of res coming in.
Not to add that oc's are ****, but enough of them will stop the best rine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe a few limits on how many Offense chambers or so per map would work. I was in this one server with this one custom map with like 20 RT slots in the main 3 hive room and it was like 8v8. OCs, DCs, MCs, and SC everywhere until server crashed <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> . Or maybe a few sieges
Comments
You should see who was at the server with 14v14 in ns_eclipse <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> . On aliens.
These are alot of the reasons that aliens lose alot, that and marines are usualy easier, and more friendly for newer people who have played FPS.
6v6 is ideal. And most (99%) of clanners will tell you scrimmng in a 6v6 ff on team based game is twice as fun as a pub. They have the benefit of playing in scrims and pubs lots. All the pubbers that say stuff like this don't have the benefit of both worlds so they can't make silly accusations like this and not be called on it. Not flaming here, it's just that most clanners have played longer, enjoy the game more, understand it better and will be playing it when most pubbers leave. Seems to me that they may know something you don't.
6v6 is ideal. And most (99%) of clanners will tell you scrimmng in a 6v6 ff on team based game is twice as fun as a pub. They have the benefit of playing in scrims and pubs lots. All the pubbers that say stuff like this don't have the benefit of both worlds so they can't make silly accusations like this and not be called on it. Not flaming here, it's just that most clanners have played longer, enjoy the game more, understand it better and will be playing it when most pubbers leave. Seems to me that they may know something you don't. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am the com for one of the top 4 clans in Australia so you can say i have played my fair share of 6v6 clan matches of a fairly high standard and they are great fun...
BUT the most memorable and forefilling matches i have played are thoes epic 24 player games with massive battles just to gain control of a small part of the map..
Petco maybe they did read my threads <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> they could have made a comment <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
6v6 is ideal. And most (99%) of clanners will tell you scrimmng in a 6v6 ff on team based game is twice as fun as a pub. They have the benefit of playing in scrims and pubs lots. All the pubbers that say stuff like this don't have the benefit of both worlds so they can't make silly accusations like this and not be called on it. Not flaming here, it's just that most clanners have played longer, enjoy the game more, understand it better and will be playing it when most pubbers leave. Seems to me that they may know something you don't. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am the com for one of the top 4 clans in Australia so you can say i have played my fair share of 6v6 clan matches of a fairly high standard and they are great fun...
BUT the most memorable and forefilling matches i have played are thoes epic 24 player games with massive battles just to gain control of a small part of the map..
Petco maybe they did read my threads <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> they could have made a comment <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
BUT, are you saying that if they were to pick a number to balance it should be a 24 person game or do you agree with the 6v6?
Simply scale the aliens respawn rate and res income with size...
Simply scale the aliens respawn rate and res income with size... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
that take some trail and error, but doable
Not to add that oc's are ****, but enough of them will stop the best rine team.
in some cases you should just keep shooting anyway
and most people won't care anyhow <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
No argument from me..
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It can be balanced for both very easily....
Simply scale the aliens respawn rate and res income with size... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately this would not solve nearly any of the issues we are seeing.
Marines have the ability with more concentrated fire to destroy anything with few upgrades. Alien RT's are like butter to a squad of 5 w1 marines...
Marines have the ability because of sheer numbers to hold more positions on the map. If you can have 3 sets of 3 marines in 3 different choke points on a map. The game is over. (10 v10 example)
The number of long hallways (thereby allowing more concentrated fire) make assaults on chokepoints by many aliens simply not possible.
The fact that marines get armour 1 for 12 marines for the cost of 20 res for the entire game, while it costs 12 aliens 24 res each life for them all to have carapace shows additional issues.
Higher-lifeform aliens are less effective because they run into more large groups of marines. Example: in a 6 v 6, if 5 marines chase a fade the rest of the alien team knows every other spot on the map is undefended so they can attack marine start/nodes/turret farms.. In that same situation in a 12 v 12 5 marines can still chase a fade while 5 additional marines make a frontal assault on the hive or hold 2 hive locations with 2 teams of 3. Aliens can't make headway against that.
There are many other issues that I could speak to, but I think you get the gist of what I'm saying.
----------
Here is an example of why it's not as simple as tweaking a number here and a number there.
The first step is once an issue has been identified, is how do we fix it? Ok, in our example.. the solution is increased res flow as the teams grow larger. This helps aliens fade faster, build faster etc. But how much do we increase it? So it's a matter of picking a number then testing it, tweaking it, and finally saying "Ok we have a value that seems to work", so that's set.
But now aliens are winning every round because the marine res is out of whack. So we adjust that, and tweak that and test that...
Oh but with the increased res flow now marines can get a1 30 seconds into a match along with an obs, a tf etc.. So now we have to deal with the arms lab issues and technology costs..
But with the increased res flow now if all aliens go gorge they can cap every node on the board within 1 minute and have enough res to have 3 fades within 2 minutes. So now we have to revisit the res issue for aliens.
And so on and so on.. Every change has to then be tested before it's released else the dev team angers the NS community at large.. with "OMG large games are messed up, aliens win every time"..
And for the coup de grace... Once you have completed this and 10 v 10 and 12 v 12 are perfect... You go back to 6 v 6 and because of a change you made to supplement larger games it's now out of balance.
This is the inevitable cycle of balancing a game like NS.
Add to this, other bug fixes, which may again change the balance (if crouching fades were fixed for example) and other bugs that may appear, throw this whole process off and require each step to be revisited to see if any additional tweaking needs to be made...
The good news is the PT's, devs and everyone else knows it's a problem so we are going to be looking at solutions as we can.
in some cases you should just keep shooting anyway
and most people won't care anyhow <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine sees skulk, marine shoots with hmg. Marine kills 3 other team mates with the skulk. Marine says it was too dark to see.
<!--QuoteBegin-waller+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (waller)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The thing about increasing res inflow would be that in a 10vs10, you could afford to ae at least 5 gorges, so the map will be oc heaven with the amount of res coming in.
Not to add that oc's are ****, but enough of them will stop the best rine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe a few limits on how many Offense chambers or so per map would work. I was in this one server with this one custom map with like 20 RT slots in the main 3 hive room and it was like 8v8. OCs, DCs, MCs, and SC everywhere until server crashed <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> . Or maybe a few sieges
Either they get screwed over by lack of spawn rates or not having enough higher level life forms to keep the marines at bay....
Once aliens get 2 hives they stand a good chance of winning they just have to get there.
Lots of people clam that don't know/care what their doing (not all of the new ppl)