Ns In Public Games... What Happened!
livenomadic
Join Date: 2004-07-11 Member: 29859Members
Join Date: 2004-07-11 Member: 29859Members
I've played NS on and off for a really long time... always 25+ people large public games.
A 6 months ago Aliens was only a tiny bit harder to win than marines in a public game... over the course of a day it was about 60% marine victories.
I have played all week and out of 50 the aliens have won ONE!!!!.... A SINGLE GAME....
I know NS is "made for smaller games" and all that... but it just seems so stupid that aliens loose that much in big games....
A 6 months ago Aliens was only a tiny bit harder to win than marines in a public game... over the course of a day it was about 60% marine victories.
I have played all week and out of 50 the aliens have won ONE!!!!.... A SINGLE GAME....
I know NS is "made for smaller games" and all that... but it just seems so stupid that aliens loose that much in big games....
Comments
It's beacuse of the alien res system....
Let's think about it for a sec. Take your average game with six people per side. In midgame, where rounds get decided, it comes down to one fade versus around four marines. ONE player, against FOUR. But that's how NS is currently balanced. One fade against a much more numerous opponent.
So let's extrapolate that. Make it a game with 10 people on each side. Now you've probably got two fades active, and around eight marines being useful. You say, what's the problem, sounds like the same odds. Well, only somewhat. Because marines are ranged, it's a LOT easier for them to focus fire on the first fade that flies through the door, and rip it to shreds. It's a lot harder for both fades to focus their attacks on one rine. They've got seven other targets to get in the way or distract them. But let's assume they take down 2 marines before they have to fly out. Now they're down to six marines. 75% of the firepower they had just a moment before, but still quite formidable. Compare that to one fade, against four marines. Easy enough to take out 2 of the 4 marines, before you have to leave and regen. 50% of the firepower they had, and the rest are skulkbait. Never mind that this is a pub, and you'll be doing well to actually have both fades attack at the same time. GG marines...
Now, let's take that the OTHER direction. Make it a game with 3 people on each side. The fade has, assuming the comm jumps out to fight aswell, three people to worry about. Throw in the fact that the fade will come much earlier, and you'll soon realize that the marine team is screwed. And don't even THINK about how hard it is to take down an Onos with three LMG's...
The moral of the story is this. Yes, the alien resourse system is screwy. But a much larger factor is simply HOW NS is balanced. Yes, you could probably fix it by changing the resource system, but the problem of balance with lifeforms and combat still persists. If you wanted to actually FIX the balance problems in NS, it might be useful to take a look at how that could be changed, instead of simply looking at one aspect of a multi-faceted problem.
btw the smaller hit box on the skulk does not make it harder to hit. we all aimed at the modle before and still do, therfore all our shots land in the same area as before.
Couldn't be hard to put server settings like this would it?
1. Painfully slow res flow for aliens in large games.
2. Permanent upgrades for marines means larger teams become more cost-efficient.
3. Marines can shorten their spawn time by building more IPs. Aliens are stuck with a long spawn queue.
4. Marines can focus their firepower more easily.
5. The bigger the team, the less painful the loss of a player to the command chair. (A dedicated commander hurts in a 4v4, but in a 12v12, no biggie)
There's nothing that can be done about 4 and 5; that's just the way the game works. But maybe 1, 2, and 3 can be worked on somehow.
I personally hate arguments like those. What you are suggesting is to kill pub-play and only let the superelites live on with their imaginary balanced 6v6? If the game is unbalanced at ANY ANY size then it needs to be fixed eventually, ignoring it is NOT going to make things better, it's a freaking rediculess way to handle a problem. Threads like these will only do good (until they get locked) so the devs can see how big of a problem certain things are.
<!--QuoteBegin-Homer Simpson+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Homer Simpson)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, by the way, I was being sarcastic.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I personally hate arguments like those. What you are suggesting is to kill pub-play and only let the superelites live on with their imaginary balanced 6v6? If the game is unbalanced at ANY ANY size then it needs to be fixed eventually, ignoring it is NOT going to make things better, it's a freaking rediculess way to handle a problem. Threads like these will only do good (until they get locked) so the devs can see how big of a problem certain things are.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, let's see:
The facts are in the past the game was balanced for 6 v 6 play, (so what the quoted person above said is true. Currently the game is balanced for 6 v6) Since the most recent release, there were a couple of decent threads on this forum as well as the PT's have been talking about how to do some work on balancing the game for large games.
The problem isn't only the alien res-flow.. It's also the ability of marines to cover the map with fire due to the differences between classes. It's also the ability of 1 arms lab upgrade affecting 12 marines where each aliens have to spend up to 6 res to get 3 abilities. It's the financial aspect of 1 upgrade for marines costing 20 and helping all marines indefinetly. etc etc etc..
The facts are, balancing 12 v 12 as well as for 6 v 6 is a lot more complicated than increasing the res flow.
So we are aware of how badly the large game needs to be addressed.
yep, doesnt matter if it was the old 1.04 res system , if one team has better players they are going to win.
Honestly, you want to know why NS is growing SO slowly for being a great game?
Its simple... new players join "average" sized pub games 10v10 and then play a COMPLETLEY unbalanced game...
Nice way to draw in more people... <span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>
It's not...
There are several areas each with it's own complexities to be adjusted. (including the maps)
We know there's a problem, we are working on finding solutions. Each solution is going to take time to build, test and implement....
We can't force server admins to set the game at a rate that's balanced. So I'm not sure what people want Flay et all to do? If people keep playing on servers that are 12 v 12 even with the knowledge that it's unbalanced we can't help that. All we can do is work to fix the issue.
If you are tired of the issue occuring play on a 6v6 or 7v7 server.
As for new players joining a 10 v 10 server, you are right. But because server admins (and I'm not picking on them, they have the right to want a balanced large game as much as the next guy) keep servers that large running while there's a problem.. The dev team, the PT's hell even the old Vet's can't do anything about that experience.
B5 will be chock full of bug fixes and perhaps some other stuff, so work is moving forward, however changes for large games are fundemental and will take more time.
I bet in the next release when these bugs get fixed it will solve some of the balance issues. You do not balance the game around the bugs.
That said, I disagree with you.
As I see it, the imbalance inherent in large (> 10v10) games stems from three things:<ul><li>The pittance that is alien res flow when split between 10 players.</li><li>The permanent upgrades gained by the marines.</li><li>The increasing effeciveness of mutiple ranged weapons.</li></ul>All of these should come as no suprise. However, only #3 poses any real problem to large game balance and it, in my experience, affects game outcomes less than having one exceptional player in the game.
To fix the alien res flow problem, the answer should be glaringly obvious: scale alien res. That simple.
As far as the upgrades are concerned, a permanent, free alien upgrade is already in place: hp and armor upgrades per hive. Simply scale those to match increasing alien effectiveness to increasing marine effectiveness, and viola! We have balance.
But whatever you do, do it quick. BUS system or no, a lot of pub players are quickly becoming disenchanted with the balance of the games they play without knowing that 20 payer games were never the intended norm for NS.
Yes it takes time to implement these changes, and also bug fixes change the balance too. The dev team work hard to release updates as fast as they can, but at the rate of releases there is for NS is there ever hope of it being balanced?
I'd like to see a separate dev member who works solely on the balance and releases versions very regularly, monthly or faster if possible. I believe the only true way to find balance is with lots and lots of testing. Everyone has great ideas on how to balance the game, but until you've tested it, it means nothing.
We got dc first, **** the 2nd hive, **** the rts, dont rebuild lost rts or place hives as long as you have your dcs and can go fade or onos.
As alien even with a good team of people knowing the game its difficult to archive a win. Somethimes it's very difficult to prevent a good reloc (like eclipse keyhole) if its not a very alien like area (like caged dbl res).
So rines with a good comm can own the map at start. You have to fight hard against the map control of rines at the start and hope getting the 2nd hive up soon. Under 4 mins is very good on a 10vs10 pub. If we play a 6vs6 or 7vs7 game im easily able to setup the 2nd hive under 3 mins if i have a good day. And the second hive is <b>the</b> general update for aliens with 2nd hive weapons and a chamber of their choice. Esp. leap upgrades skulks extremly in their fighting ability.
Also Fade are comming in later and have to fight against more upgraded and more rines.
Theres a different playing style based on the count of players. in 10vs10 on my server its usual to electrify the rt's as so powerful because fades are comming later in game as in a 6vs6.
I know it very very difficult to balance this game but imho its a must as most players enjoy playing on a larger server and have more intense action and a larger chance for an epic game. The usual player is the "customer" of the mod and it's the base of the community. Support em.
I dont like some argument like "it difficult to balance" or "ns ia made for 6vs6". I think it's an issue so it should get fixed. So i would like to see that the dev team tries to get over this hurdle and tries to balance the game based on the count of players. It dont have to be perfect but it will be better than it's currently.
So my please is: support the pub player.
Anyways tnx to the dev team making the imho best mod i have ever seen. Thats why i'm as non-clanned player have a own server.
PS. sry for my bad english <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The facts are in the past the game was balanced for 6 v 6 play, (so what the quoted person above said is true. Currently the game is balanced for 6 v6) Since the most recent release, there were a couple of decent threads on this forum as well as the PT's have been talking about how to do some work on balancing the game for large games.
The problem isn't only the alien res-flow.. It's also the ability of marines to cover the map with fire due to the differences between classes. It's also the ability of 1 arms lab upgrade affecting 12 marines where each aliens have to spend up to 6 res to get 3 abilities. It's the financial aspect of 1 upgrade for marines costing 20 and helping all marines indefinetly. etc etc etc..
The facts are, balancing 12 v 12 as well as for 6 v 6 is a lot more complicated than increasing the res flow.
So we are aware of how badly the large game needs to be addressed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't state if it was true or not, I just said the argument of "don't play on odd sized servers" is a very bad one.
Now back to something else. The problem with 12 players servers is that once it's full you might get some fun almost balanced games. However when it's not you would experience Alien total dominance. This is bad, as I see it the "corridor of balance" if you might call it is WAY too narrow. It's however good to finally see a reply that confirms that the devs are working on it.
Edit: Just something for you alien players who are on large servers. Try getting MCs first. It benefits a large team far greater than dcs. Think about it, instead of only greatly benefitting 1-3 reswhoring fades you can greatly benefit the whole team (yes fades too).