Read Em And Weep!
Recoup
Join Date: 2004-04-25 Member: 28195Members
Join Date: 2004-04-25 Member: 28195Members
<div class="IPBDescription">MUWAHAHAH</div> YOU WANT STATS FOR UNCHAINED CHAMBERS?! YOU GOT STATS!
Games ending with 9 players (330 total):
142 Marine Victories (43%)
188 Alien Victories (57%)
Games ending with 10 players (274 total) :
117 Marine Victories (43%)
157 Alien Victories (57%)
Games ending with 11 players (239 total) :
105 Marine Victories (44%)
134 Alien Victories (56%)
Games ending with 12 players (198 total) :
91 Marine Victories (46%)
107 Alien Victories (54%)
Games ending with 13 players (152 total) :
74 Marine Victories (49%)
78 Alien Victories (51%)
Games ending with 14 players (66 total) :
28 Marine Victories (42%)
38 Alien Victories (58%)
Games ending with anywhere from 9 to 14 players (1259 total cumulative) :
557 Marine Victories (44%)
702 Alien Victories (56%)
Taken RIGHT from the Unchained Chambers server, FROM the admin HIMSELF, after gathering these stats. 150 MORE VICTORIES THEN MARINES?! YOU CALL THAT BULL CRAP FAIR?!
Games ending with 9 players (330 total):
142 Marine Victories (43%)
188 Alien Victories (57%)
Games ending with 10 players (274 total) :
117 Marine Victories (43%)
157 Alien Victories (57%)
Games ending with 11 players (239 total) :
105 Marine Victories (44%)
134 Alien Victories (56%)
Games ending with 12 players (198 total) :
91 Marine Victories (46%)
107 Alien Victories (54%)
Games ending with 13 players (152 total) :
74 Marine Victories (49%)
78 Alien Victories (51%)
Games ending with 14 players (66 total) :
28 Marine Victories (42%)
38 Alien Victories (58%)
Games ending with anywhere from 9 to 14 players (1259 total cumulative) :
557 Marine Victories (44%)
702 Alien Victories (56%)
Taken RIGHT from the Unchained Chambers server, FROM the admin HIMSELF, after gathering these stats. 150 MORE VICTORIES THEN MARINES?! YOU CALL THAT BULL CRAP FAIR?!
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Its simply natural that marine public teamplay will be on a lower level for the next months to come. Still, unchained chambers doesn't even help the Aliens that much - it gives them the option of planting 15 res SCs (at least currently), but restricts them to 1 upgrade/Hive. The only real tweak is that the observatory and ping cost should be reduced (and MT/PG cost increased to counteract that).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thats like really amazingly convincing in an enviroment where 95% of all commanders fail at figuring ou the counters to an Offensive Chamber, and/or marines don't posess the intelligence required for a Phaserush<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been hearing so much of the same CRAP, but this time its different! Oh w00 h00! Everyone used to say "Marines are too good though! New alien players are having a tough time!" now they are saying "Mariens arent intelligent enough to combat aliens! That is why those stats are that way!"
SHUT THE HELL UP!
Marginal vicotory, NO! 150 games EXTRA won is NOT fair. Everyone complained about how aliens lost so many times, when this goes to show all it did was boost their win from 50/50 to 45 / 55. 150 wins is a lot, when you think about it. That is a-lot.
When I get those stats from NSArms Lab, I will see exactly how well unchaining fairs against normal play.
I actually DO my research and dont just accept what I hear. I back up what I say with facts and people hate me for it! So I say, BRING IT ON!
And don't forget this is BETA, we need to test things out like this, and finally, IT'S ONLY A FOOKING GAME, calm it
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/style_images/TSA_Skin-975/icon2.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
TEH COW! <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I am friggin off the wall because of all the people who thought they were right and I was wrong and just annoying. Well this is IN THEIR FACES!
But, what doesnt make sense to me is that you did 4 vs. 5, 5 vs. 5, 5 vs. 6, 6 vs. 6, 7 vs. 6 and 7 vs. 7...we should go more into the larger and smaller numbers...
I took 20 from the server I play on reguarly, and 10 from NSArms lab since they didnt play combat. The results still came out 50/50. So now I aim at getting 1,300 from NSArms Lab.
But, what doesnt make sense to me is that you did 4 vs. 5, 5 vs. 5, 5 vs. 6, 6 vs. 6, 7 vs. 6 and 7 vs. 7...we should go more into the larger and smaller numbers... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
While that is wierd, something that people keep failing to believe is- NS WAS NOT MADE FOR HIGH-PLAYER-AMOUNT GAMES. IT WILL NEVER BE FOR 16vs16 GAMES. EVER. MAXIMUM SHOULD BE 8vs8. Its been that way, been said by a lot of people a lot of times(dev team), and is a standard and known thing in the development of NS. Though, he should have gone to 8v8 I think <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Unless you can put up fact, just as I have, then maybe the argument is worth it because so far all I have heard is "Well ya know what? I bet this" or "I know that" or "They probably do this"
CUT IT OUT
Unchained: 1200 results from one server
Instead, this looks like one man's response in some silly chicken fight.
I'm the admin he's referring to, and these statistics were gathered from the logs of the TacticalGamer.com NS server, which is appreciated by many as a very good compromise between public and professional play. From the once-a-week player to CAL-O competitors and commanders coming out of a scrim, our server plays host to regulars with a wide range of skill and a common love for teamwork and coordination. This is EXACTLY the type of server you want data from when evaluating the type of data in this thread's first post.
These numbers, based on over ONE THOUSAND GAMES, show that Unchained Chambers does NOT hurt balance on our server. We have intelligent marines and intelligent aliens, and the gameplay changes introduced by this plugin have been explored throughly by our regulars.
Unchained chambers is NOT a threat to balance in Natural Selection. If ANYTHING, these numbers confirm what the rational among us have been claiming since the beginning: tweaks are likely going to be necessary to make the most of unchained, but there's no balance justification for not trying it in an official beta.
<b>Please focus on the data, and not the way it has been presented.</b> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I specified those players numbers (9-14), not him. NS without at least 9 players (some say higher) is a joke, and our server maxes out at 7v7 (not 8v8, as Recoup claimed; see Quaunaut's comments for general reasoning).
Recoup, this data means next to nothing when it's only coming from one server. You don't pick up one red lollipop and then scream "HA! I TOLD YOU LOLLIPOPS WERE RED!" You need data from several servers... like... 25 servers, I would think. For goodness sakes man, we have CAL-O fades and skulks playing on this server.... and 1.5 just isn't that great a percentage of 12.
I thought Recoup's aim when he requested this information from me was to include it with data from SEVERAL other servers. I guess I just assumed that, as one or two server's data doesn't mean much. My mistake, I guess.
Recoup, these numbers are fact. Your interpretation of them is not. Your interpretation of these numbers is opinion.
Then you look at the percentage and realize, it's not really that bad at all.
Then you look at the percentage and realize, it's not really that bad at all. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Precisely.
How many unchained servers are running, just for the sake of asking.
I have yet to aquire, however, the stats for a regular NS server, the same player compliment. If it lays out to be 50% to 50% since that matters so much, then you guys threw off what was already a mostly balanced game. If it shows that its leniant towards marines more, then lets start testing this on more servers. If the aliens win more, then we probably shouldnt impliment it.
All in all, it comes down to the value of the players.
But my excitement and finger pointing come precisely from the reason that people thought that this idea was better then regular NS and that people who were against it were wrong and stupid and blindsighted. I am a very "in your face" kind of person, so, dont take it as much of a surprise.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thats like really amazingly convincing in an enviroment where 95% of all commanders fail at figuring ou the counters to an Offensive Chamber, and/or marines don't posess the intelligence required for a Phaserush<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been hearing so much of the same CRAP, but this time its different! Oh w00 h00! Everyone used to say "Marines are too good though! New alien players are having a tough time!" now they are saying "Mariens arent intelligent enough to combat aliens! That is why those stats are that way!"
SHUT THE HELL UP!
Marginal vicotory, NO! 150 games EXTRA won is NOT fair. Everyone complained about how aliens lost so many times, when this goes to show all it did was boost their win from 50/50 to 45 / 55. 150 wins is a lot, when you think about it. That is a-lot.
When I get those stats from NSArms Lab, I will see exactly how well unchaining fairs against normal play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Public play will always be depedent on circumstance and acclimatisation of the playerbase, not exclusively balance - thats why an average 11% advantage isn't necessarily representative of a balance issue. 150 games means nothing, as its an absolute number.
Furthermore, the actual win/loss ratio on a public doesn't determine how well balanced the game is, as you've noticed it says nothing about the way games were played. Statistics are indeed worthless at doing anything except in large timeframes and numbers pointing out possible gross inconsistencies. You might still not have figured it out after several people have told you in this thread, but thats not a gross inconsistency.
And the inability to combat offense chambers rationally is indeed the downfall of 9 out of 10 public games. It costs time and 65 res to do it the irrational way - it costs ~5 res and 20 seconds to take out a swarm of OCs otherwise (or ~40 if you want to just shotgun rush it). If I can get around to it I'll demo you some games to that effect.
The point remains regardless. Games should be balanced towards playability, and an equality of strengths and counter-strengths, not a perfect average value of wins and any completely arbitrary and stupid measure to uphold that. Come to think of it, didn't you recently post stats on vanilla aliens vs marines that looked almost the same?
The ability to combat OC's has nothing to do with loosing games. It takes 2 LMG clips and 1 pistol clip un-upgraded. An OC is nothing special.
OCs do indeed have impressive success on public servers, because the common form of marine 'teamwork' is swarming across the map 1 by 1 - which works fine as long as you're not up against static defense, or have a commander that will drop a structure ontop of the OC group.
Your 5 res method DOES intrigue me though... how does it work?
No, it wasn't. Read the first post of this thread, which inspired the unchained plugin and gameplay :
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=71686' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=71686</a>
Not only does it begin by stating a concern for stale strategy, but it addresses the assumption that aliens will become gameplay-crippling overpowered and predicts that this will not be the case. The data you have provided, though more valid if pulled from more servers, only stands to substantiate the author's original message.
This gameplay change is both fun and not an unmanageable threat to balance.
It seems, Recoup, that you taking a near balance in the statistics and trying to somehow say they are grossly lopsided. 150 more victories? Statistics are easily manipulated. A simple example:
Lets take male to female population from the 2000 US Census. Did you know there are over 5.3 million more females in the US than males? That's huge! More than the populations of North Dakota, South Dakota, Alaska, Vermont, Wyoming, Deleware, and Montana COMBINED. In fact, there would still be half a million females after counting all those states. So is the US being overrun with women? No. Just because statistics show a small leaning to one side of a chart, doesn't mean that that there is an imbalance. Genetics state that we should have an exactly 50/50 population of males to females. But just because that isn't reality, doesn't change the fact that we still have 50/50 probability of each new child born to male or female. In fact over time, it may be that males will soon be in greater portion than females, or it's possible that females will gain an even greater lead in population.
Either way, statistics do not prove an argument. If statistics were significanly tilted towards one side, it would certainly help in making an argument, but stats alone do not. Especially considering the unregulated conditions under which these statistics were taken. Where is the control group? What about games that wern't played competatively/not playing to win? How many victories happened because of a failed relocate? How many were victories because of a rush? On the odd player games, who got the extra person? How do you take into account for players leaving early? There really are more variables here than can be taken into account.
While these are definately interesting to look at, I don't see how it can convince anyone one way or the other, particularly due to the closeness of the stats themselves.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Please don't drown his point in minutia, and please don't discuss OC-countering strategies in this thread, as that's terribly off-topic.
Will someone just do as I asked 3 times and give me more unchained chambers servers?
And Unchained Chambers (as well as any other plugin at Roob's) is server side only. Only client side thing I know of is Cheating Death <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->