Bhop is hardly necessary to own hard in public play - even against good marines. If you're good at ambushing and you don't miss (too many) bites, you'll still kick ****. Its biggest uses in clan play are fast travel around the map, and ambushes from distance (ie one skulk in a vent and another around a couple corners).
If you're a bad skulk, don't blame it on not bunnyhopping. I can bhop as fast as anyone (seriously), but I am a **** skulk because I miss bites. It's incredibly common for me to ambush or somehow get the drop on a marine, hit with the first bite, and then die when they dodge my inept melee attempts.
Edit: let me clarify what I mean by ambushing. The best skulks don't wait until after a marine has passed through a door. They site a marine and hit him as he's coming through the arch. Find the demo of eR vs. ir on amped (ns_veil) and watch from Lux's viewpoint right at the beginning. He kills two very good shots (Disk and Cole, I think. Certainly Cole, and Cole is a scary good shot, or at least he was last time I played against him) by popping around the corner right before they'd see him, so he nullifies their increidble reflexes and aim by giving them no time in which to shoot him. That's good skulking, and it didn't involve bunnyhop anywhere.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I dare you guys. Just for a few games. Try not bunnyhopping. Learn how to combat the humans without bouncing up and down like a playground ball. Pester your gorges for movement or sensory. Eventually, you will pick up and learn the tactics of a hunter. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think Bhoppers solely rely on bhopping to kill marines, as most areas isnt the best place for zigzaging for the kill. Atleast for my own part, bhop is a way to reach the furthest area of the map, faster, so i can position myself on a better ambushing spot, which marines wont bother to check. Basicly cuz , well, who would reach there that fast??? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
PS. Marines actually wont check areas just outside MS, the first 15 seconds of the game. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However the only people who play this game are those who are going to know what bunny hopping is or, at least know people who will know.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Got anything to back that up? Sounds complete BS to be blunt.
I resented bhopping when I didn't know how to do it, but then when I figured it out, and I realized when to use it, and when not to, it seemed perfectly fine...Bhoppers dont just run around slaughtering everything while hopping around everywhere, most still use ambushing techniques to get it done, sometimes bhopping is incorporated into this as a distraction for fire or something, but far from the killing machine that some of you think it is...
I only use it for getting around the map more quickly...Or to distract fire from other things...
As for how hard it is to learn, it took me a very long time...Not to learn, but to find out exactly how to do it. It had turned out that I knew exactly how to do it for a very long time, but I just had no clue on how to start it off and be able to have speed. Once I learned this it came easily.
imo bhopping barely helps at all in fighting situations, if you're up against a fairly decent marine. If you're frustrated because you keep getting owned by bhopping skulks...you probably need to get some better aim...
That's an argument problem. I say "get rid of bunnyhopping, it doesn't fit into the world," and the instant reply is "no! I'll never be able to kill a marine ever again!"
So, I was assuming that some people thought that they needed bunnyhopping to kill marines. And then I built my last post off of that.
Ok we need to stop going back to the whole "ambush as skulk" argument. Its not going to win a game, seriously.
You can't just camp in a spot and wait for marines. You are playing into their hands - they are taking nodes and locking down the map while you might as well be afk.
And there aren't that many spots on NS maps that allow you a clear ambush.. and often there are many enterances all over the place so a marine can come around into the open opposite of you and see you perched above the door way or around the corner, etc.. And people play NS maps over and over again. They will know all the common ambush spots. Certainly if you kill them there once, they will learn. And they will start checking corners, just a simple strafe around, doesn't slow them down.
And again, you can't have all your combat being ambush attacks. You need to keep pressure on the marines before they build up and expand and start knocking hives off. ie, start of the round, often you rush the marine spawn to slow their attempts down. You have no choice but to fight them, camping will do nothing, they will have solidified their spawn. Then a line of marines come out, you jump on them, you kill one and the guy's partner(s) kill you.
And if its a small game, it will be very hard to get a spot and wait for five minutes for the off-chance that a marine comes by. Especially once they start getting phase gates out so they could be coming from anywhere.
And the marines don't have to ambush anything, they just systematically go around from node to node killing everything they see.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"I know, let's not curb bhop in any way, but just balance the game based on the fact that the aliens will bhop."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sign number one you're wrong. Bhopping is a nessecity, true- for high level clan play, and mostly to get into a position quickly. Not to go bounding down the long hallway at the guy who can't hit a skulk jumping very predicably 9 times.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok we need to stop going back to the whole "ambush as skulk" argument. Its not going to win a game, seriously.
You can't just camp in a spot and wait for marines. You are playing into their hands - they are taking nodes and locking down the map while you might as well be afk. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed, you cannot camp a spot at random and seriously expect any results. There's this crazy thing you might want to try that I like to call scouting, as in, you find out where they're going, use your TEAMwork h4x to let others know, and stop them before they get too far. An aggressive defence works nicely. Don't feed them kills thinking "Oh man, he's right there! I gotta kill him! Ack, I died. Maybe if I repeat this 10 or so times, I'll actually get him! Wait for him to come to me before he can actually get into a good position? Nah, I don't have the patience."
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And the marines don't have to ambush anything, they just systematically go around from node to node killing everything they see.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right- anything a rine see's will often die. Solution? Don't let them see you untill it's too late.
As mentioned earlier, you shouldn't camp the cieling, let joe rambo run the corner, turn around, and shoot you for your "ambush." You either parasite them and attack them as they close the blind spot, or listen carefully and attack when you are able to judge that they are close.
If one were to over-buff the skulk so it could go charging at a rine without jumping or moving sparatically and come out on top, all one has done is nerfed the game. A slight hp/speed boost is needed for the skulk, but not so you're running at Bhop speeds as a mini-tank; A proper ambush will become unstopable.
Skulks CANNOT charge decent rines. It just won't happen. Regardless of bhopping, which is a nice way for experianced players to get from point A to point B quickly w/o making them weapons of mass destuction when used properly.
Quit missing bites. If your "OMG UGBER AMBUHS" fails yet you did it "perfectly" odds are you weren't as great as you thought. Odds are, you missed a few bites. Once people realise aim is everybit as important for both sides, and you cannot just spam bite ftw, you'll do dramatically better.
And people, please understand there's a difference from "jump spamming" and "bunny hopping." One... spams jump. The other actually accomplishes something.
As stated before, I guess the summery here is "If a skulk can bhop into you and kill you, it looks like you've got to improve to the point where they cannot." (In nicer terms, anyways.) Removing it will simply throw another nerf into the game, and take away from the skill curve. Please try to remember- Movement skill is just as important as aiming, if not moreso in some situations.
So, what you guys are implying is that clanners dont actually use bhop in combat. Now, the question is, whats the problem with removing bhopping, and increasing the base speed of skulks to match that of a skulk that bhops?
This has been suggested before, but given the way its used in game, I dont see why this isnt a good solution.
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Jun 24 2004, 05:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Jun 24 2004, 05:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So, what you guys are implying is that clanners dont actually use bhop in combat. Now, the question is, whats the problem with removing bhopping, and increasing the base speed of skulks to match that of a skulk that bhops?
This has been suggested before, but given the way its used in game, I dont see why this isnt a good solution. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem, as NGE actually just said in the post above you, is that it would make ambushing even MORE powerful than it is now, and it would STILL be the only way to get kills against decent marines.
<!--QuoteBegin-Harpoon+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harpoon)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok we need to stop going back to the whole "ambush as skulk" argument. Its not going to win a game, seriously.
You can't just camp in a spot and wait for marines. You are playing into their hands - they are taking nodes and locking down the map while you might as well be afk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think people mean "camping above a doorway in the corner" when they say "ambushing." Any sort of position you are in where you suprise a marine and start the engagement in melee range could be considered an ambush. You don't need to actually camp to do it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem, as NGE actually just said in the post above you, is that it would make ambushing even MORE powerful than it is now, and it would STILL be the only way to get kills against decent marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would that be a bad thing? I always thought the primary role of a skulk was to scout and defend. Its the higher lifeforms you use for the rushing.
<!--QuoteBegin-UKchaos+Jun 24 2004, 08:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UKchaos @ Jun 24 2004, 08:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem, as NGE actually just said in the post above you, is that it would make ambushing even MORE powerful than it is now, and it would STILL be the only way to get kills against decent marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would that be a bad thing? I always thought the primary role of a skulk was to scout and defend. Its the higher lifeforms you use for the rushing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> umm... because it unbalances the game?
Remember 2.0? Having skulks rape marines isn't exactly fun either
You don't want either side to be too good, enough with this "OMG THIS SIDE IS TOO GOOD... NERF TO DEATH!!!!1"
Really immature and poor playtesting attitude tbh.
More atmospheric and they're both a bullet dodge technique that's even that more powerful in relatively small places (allowing you to jump from wall to wall
Am I the only one that thinks this version IS balanced (meant to be played at 6v6)? If you want some general proof, look at the CAL results. When everyone played ns_origin, the results were a bunch of marine ties (i think origin is a marine map) and when everyone played ns_nothing, there were a bunch on alien ties (nothing being an alien based map). The balance right now is fine, maybe the maps need tweaking is all.
The only real problem there is right now is the large servers that seem so popular. On these 20 person servers, a few good marines join and a commander that knows what he is doing and it is gg aliens regardless of alien skill level. Luckily, alot of the time marines get into this must electrify an tf everything, then we will get upgrades and ha and pwn the aliens. So aliens have a chance to take it all back with fades before marines ever get an upgrade.
Well for one thing by the end of the week 90% of the clans playing blocked the middle elevator on their alien round, which totally stops marine res expansion there, if they plan to go that way...
And it's not hard to slaughter marines in a 4x8 ft room from the ceiling...which is what you're average elevator is...
I think it's just the elevators that make it alien biased
I see only one thing that is very wrong with bunnyhopping and absolutely needs to be fixed, framerate dependence, as bad and unfair as for jetpacks in 1.0. (the higher your framerate, the faster you are allowed to turn your velocity(!, you can add a maximum of 30 units/s per frame(most of which is perpendicular to your current velocity and turns you, not accelerates you forwards)). At around 20 FPS bunnyhopping is much much more difficult than any descent framerate. At 50 FPS and above it starts getting more difficult to notice the framerate dependence).
Also a ducking bunnyhopping onos is a visual atrocity.
I love when skulks bunnyhop towards me, it's allmost as easy as hitting someone running in a straight line because it's so darn predictable. Even ankle biters are harder to dodge/shoot than bunnyhoppers.
the balance issue is seriously -NOT- with bhopping imo.
If you awkwardly try to jump/run/wallclimb/whatever other means of closing distance without bhopping at a marine at the other end of a corridor, you die.
if you use the almighty bhop of doom to get to a marine at the other end of a corridor, you die.
Bunnyhopping being required is yet another part of NS that totally boggles the mind. The game is an RTS/FPS hybrid, and yet it often takes the absolutely least compatible aspects of both genres.... and mashes them together into a big pile of goo. Some FPS games require extremely high reflexes, timing, speed, and precision aiming to succeed. Does that sound like something that would be most easily compromised with the more slow, methodical approach of RTS gaming? Heck no. And thus we get ultra fragile Skulks, Lerks, and Fades... all requiring enormous amounts of concentration and speed to stay alive with. For all intents and purposes, the Aliens of NS are totally anti-newbie friendly, and essentially limit 50% of the game to hard-core gamers. Great.
sOmeone should do a poll... figure out what kind of gamers are playing NS. I'm not sure. I'm a hard-core FPS gamer, just a casual RTS gamer. I wonder why so many people can so strongly defend this game's current state, and wonder which genre (FPS or RTS) they are most strongly affiliated with. On one hand, maybe FPS gamers love NS because it *does* require so much concentration and sheer reflexes (but ultimately shallow feeling combat). On the other hand, maybe RTS gamers love NS because they 're not big FPS gamers to begin with.. and can ignore its huge flaws because they're really not part of the FPS genre anyway. hmm. Personally, I only play NS because I always get new mission objectives to accomplish. Like a dynamic mission generator in a flight sim. Keeps things fresh. Being a hardcore FPS gamer, though, I find the combat itself very weak and generally nothing to write home about. I can come out of a Day of Defeat game telling war stories to my friend, and he can tell them back. But in NS? No stories at all, the combat itself is so forgettable..
And as an RTS game.. well, since the same strategies are used 99% of the time.. it hardly feels like an RTS game at all. The FPS combat determines almost everything. I now believe RTS and FPS genres cannot be combined. FPS games just can't do that. RTS / RPG hybrid would work. RTT / FPS hybrid would work (real-time TACTICAL). That way, you have commanders pointing out weaknesses and generally overseeing the battles instead of making overbearing strategical decisions......... all this would work, but not RTS / FPS.
Each alien has it's own skills/playtype... Then you have the last skill/playtype -marine/commander.
It takes a couple of times to learn something simple like blink hop, but it takes a fair time to be a great fade. It takes a small time to become a average skulk but a very long time to become a great one - note that new people play skulk as a default and veterans also play skulk for the extreme skill of it which is kind of rare in a game. CS vets use a deagle while new ppl use mp5s...
I don't know, but remove the difficulty and depth of these playtypes and you'll just be simplifying and thus "overbalancing" the game, which will be boring(vets of 1.04 etc leaving?).... Didn't anybody watch and understand the matrix!!!
<!--QuoteBegin-GuardianLegend+Jun 26 2004, 01:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GuardianLegend @ Jun 26 2004, 01:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bunnyhopping being required is yet another part of NS that totally boggles the mind. The game is an RTS/FPS hybrid, and yet it often takes the absolutely least compatible aspects of both genres.... and mashes them together into a big pile of goo. Some FPS games require extremely high reflexes, timing, speed, and precision aiming to succeed. Does that sound like something that would be most easily compromised with the more slow, methodical approach of RTS gaming? Heck no. And thus we get ultra fragile Skulks, Lerks, and Fades... all requiring enormous amounts of concentration and speed to stay alive with. For all intents and purposes, the Aliens of NS are totally anti-newbie friendly, and essentially limit 50% of the game to hard-core gamers. Great. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You're creating arbitrary genres where it's clear (from the fact that NS exists) they don't exist. Reality isn't a "RTS/FPS HYBRID GUYZ" and neither is NS. It's a fun strategy game with really challenging and <i>not</i> shallow combat. Its clear to you when you're playing that whether or not you kill this or that marine will affect whether or not you can drop the next hive and get your next upgrades. Plus, slow methodical RTS gaming? You've never played starcraft I suppose. Or C&C, or total annihilation, or etc.
I will, though, agree with you that aliens are not "newb-friendly." Figuring out how to kill with a skulk is a lot harder than figuring out how to kill as marine (aim, fire, run away?). I bet you anything you'd find that 95% of NS players are "hard-core" gamers - people who play more than 10 hours a week - because it has a rather steep learning curve.
I just think your characterization of people as FPS-gamers or RTS-gamers is missing the forest for the trees. Plus I think NS makes great stories.
Alcapwn"War is the science of destruction" - John AbbotJoin Date: 2003-06-21Member: 17590Members
<!--QuoteBegin-e.Nadagast+Jun 23 2004, 06:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Jun 23 2004, 06:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> maybe you can bhop vs pubbing marines but doing that vs decent shots will get you killed in an instant. it's still all about ambushing, Shockwave, and a good ambush will always be better than the best bhopper going in full speed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-ZiGGY^+Jun 26 2004, 09:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZiGGY^ @ Jun 26 2004, 09:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think I hear the doorbell... oh wait sorry thats just a pin dropping... on the CARPET. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Zigs, I love you man.
damnit guys cut this "ambush" crap. Its people like you who keep aliens from getting boosted.
How are you suppose to rely on ambushing as skulk for every combat engagement?
I'm on ns_eclipse, I go down a hallway and a marine is already there. What do I do? Sorry, no ambushing now, I have to fight, and he kills me at range. If I went back and hid around the corner, he'd know - even the most newbie marine would be cautious when he goes after me or won't go after me at all. The skulks are rushing the marine spawn - they have no choice but to fight them, hiding will only give them more time to prepare.
Skulks will be forced to do head to head engagements against marines, you can't avoid it. The people who keep talking about "ambushing" and "hiding" are the ones who go marines each map or just save up for fade.
In that instance, I would have parasited him a couple of times to let my teammates know he was there and unless he's going to build a phase/tf leave him alone for the time being. You say there was no ambushing there... I disagree. For a start, don't just rush around corners that are likely to have marines around them. I know it's hard to tell these things and it's inevitable sometimes that you'll bhop into one just standing there.
After parasiting, if he's not protecting anything and just kill whoring then <b>leave him be</b> for the moment. Not every marine you see needs to feel your wrath. Infact he's probably standing there because of greedy skulks rushing him alone 6 or 7 times until they work out it doesn't work, or once they've ground down his health enough for him to be an easier kill - not a very efficient way of fighting.
I would wait with a teammate preferably, around the area to see what he does... as soon as he goes to build anything at all, that's his weakness and that's when you get a free ambush kill. The same marine has wasted 2 minutes being useless camping a corridor that is probably has 3 vent routes around it and soon as he's done something useful, he's a dead man. If he was say..camping horseshoe or triad, then those rooms are built for alien ambushes if played right.
There's nothing wrong with the skulk, or bunnyhopping at all. Its just people's approach to a lifeform that is so different from counterstrike/dod/tfc/anything.
Comments
If you're a bad skulk, don't blame it on not bunnyhopping. I can bhop as fast as anyone (seriously), but I am a **** skulk because I miss bites. It's incredibly common for me to ambush or somehow get the drop on a marine, hit with the first bite, and then die when they dodge my inept melee attempts.
Edit: let me clarify what I mean by ambushing. The best skulks don't wait until after a marine has passed through a door. They site a marine and hit him as he's coming through the arch. Find the demo of eR vs. ir on amped (ns_veil) and watch from Lux's viewpoint right at the beginning. He kills two very good shots (Disk and Cole, I think. Certainly Cole, and Cole is a scary good shot, or at least he was last time I played against him) by popping around the corner right before they'd see him, so he nullifies their increidble reflexes and aim by giving them no time in which to shoot him. That's good skulking, and it didn't involve bunnyhop anywhere.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think Bhoppers solely rely on bhopping to kill marines, as most areas isnt the best place for zigzaging for the kill. Atleast for my own part, bhop is a way to reach the furthest area of the map, faster, so i can position myself on a better ambushing spot, which marines wont bother to check.
Basicly cuz , well, who would reach there that fast??? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
PS. Marines actually wont check areas just outside MS, the first 15 seconds of the game. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Got anything to back that up? Sounds complete BS to be blunt.
I only use it for getting around the map more quickly...Or to distract fire from other things...
As for how hard it is to learn, it took me a very long time...Not to learn, but to find out exactly how to do it. It had turned out that I knew exactly how to do it for a very long time, but I just had no clue on how to start it off and be able to have speed. Once I learned this it came easily.
imo bhopping barely helps at all in fighting situations, if you're up against a fairly decent marine. If you're frustrated because you keep getting owned by bhopping skulks...you probably need to get some better aim...
So, I was assuming that some people thought that they needed bunnyhopping to kill marines. And then I built my last post off of that.
You can't just camp in a spot and wait for marines. You are playing into their hands - they are taking nodes and locking down the map while you might as well be afk.
And there aren't that many spots on NS maps that allow you a clear ambush.. and often there are many enterances all over the place so a marine can come around into the open opposite of you and see you perched above the door way or around the corner, etc.. And people play NS maps over and over again. They will know all the common ambush spots. Certainly if you kill them there once, they will learn. And they will start checking corners, just a simple strafe around, doesn't slow them down.
And again, you can't have all your combat being ambush attacks. You need to keep pressure on the marines before they build up and expand and start knocking hives off. ie, start of the round, often you rush the marine spawn to slow their attempts down. You have no choice but to fight them, camping will do nothing, they will have solidified their spawn. Then a line of marines come out, you jump on them, you kill one and the guy's partner(s) kill you.
And if its a small game, it will be very hard to get a spot and wait for five minutes for the off-chance that a marine comes by. Especially once they start getting phase gates out so they could be coming from anywhere.
And the marines don't have to ambush anything, they just systematically go around from node to node killing everything they see.
Sign number one you're wrong. Bhopping is a nessecity, true- for high level clan play, and mostly to get into a position quickly. Not to go bounding down the long hallway at the guy who can't hit a skulk jumping very predicably 9 times.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok we need to stop going back to the whole "ambush as skulk" argument. Its not going to win a game, seriously.
You can't just camp in a spot and wait for marines. You are playing into their hands - they are taking nodes and locking down the map while you might as well be afk. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed, you cannot camp a spot at random and seriously expect any results. There's this crazy thing you might want to try that I like to call scouting, as in, you find out where they're going, use your TEAMwork h4x to let others know, and stop them before they get too far. An aggressive defence works nicely. Don't feed them kills thinking "Oh man, he's right there! I gotta kill him! Ack, I died. Maybe if I repeat this 10 or so times, I'll actually get him! Wait for him to come to me before he can actually get into a good position? Nah, I don't have the patience."
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And the marines don't have to ambush anything, they just systematically go around from node to node killing everything they see.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right- anything a rine see's will often die. Solution? Don't let them see you untill it's too late.
As mentioned earlier, you shouldn't camp the cieling, let joe rambo run the corner, turn around, and shoot you for your "ambush." You either parasite them and attack them as they close the blind spot, or listen carefully and attack when you are able to judge that they are close.
If one were to over-buff the skulk so it could go charging at a rine without jumping or moving sparatically and come out on top, all one has done is nerfed the game. A slight hp/speed boost is needed for the skulk, but not so you're running at Bhop speeds as a mini-tank; A proper ambush will become unstopable.
Skulks CANNOT charge decent rines. It just won't happen. Regardless of bhopping, which is a nice way for experianced players to get from point A to point B quickly w/o making them weapons of mass destuction when used properly.
Quit missing bites. If your "OMG UGBER AMBUHS" fails yet you did it "perfectly" odds are you weren't as great as you thought. Odds are, you missed a few bites. Once people realise aim is everybit as important for both sides, and you cannot just spam bite ftw, you'll do dramatically better.
And people, please understand there's a difference from "jump spamming" and "bunny hopping." One... spams jump. The other actually accomplishes something.
As stated before, I guess the summery here is "If a skulk can bhop into you and kill you, it looks like you've got to improve to the point where they cannot." (In nicer terms, anyways.) Removing it will simply throw another nerf into the game, and take away from the skill curve. Please try to remember- Movement skill is just as important as aiming, if not moreso in some situations.
Smart play > nerfed game
This has been suggested before, but given the way its used in game, I dont see why this isnt a good solution.
This has been suggested before, but given the way its used in game, I dont see why this isnt a good solution. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem, as NGE actually just said in the post above you, is that it would make ambushing even MORE powerful than it is now, and it would STILL be the only way to get kills against decent marines.
<!--QuoteBegin-Harpoon+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harpoon)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok we need to stop going back to the whole "ambush as skulk" argument. Its not going to win a game, seriously.
You can't just camp in a spot and wait for marines. You are playing into their hands - they are taking nodes and locking down the map while you might as well be afk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think people mean "camping above a doorway in the corner" when they say "ambushing." Any sort of position you are in where you suprise a marine and start the engagement in melee range could be considered an ambush. You don't need to actually camp to do it.
Why would that be a bad thing? I always thought the primary role of a skulk was to scout and defend. Its the higher lifeforms you use for the rushing.
Why would that be a bad thing? I always thought the primary role of a skulk was to scout and defend. Its the higher lifeforms you use for the rushing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
umm... because it unbalances the game?
Remember 2.0? Having skulks rape marines isn't exactly fun either
You don't want either side to be too good, enough with this "OMG THIS SIDE IS TOO GOOD... NERF TO DEATH!!!!1"
Really immature and poor playtesting attitude tbh.
More atmospheric and they're both a bullet dodge technique that's even that more powerful in relatively small places (allowing you to jump from wall to wall
The balance right now is fine, maybe the maps need tweaking is all.
The only real problem there is right now is the large servers that seem so popular. On these 20 person servers, a few good marines join and a commander that knows what he is doing and it is gg aliens regardless of alien skill level. Luckily, alot of the time marines get into this must electrify an tf everything, then we will get upgrades and ha and pwn the aliens. So aliens have a chance to take it all back with fades before marines ever get an upgrade.
And it's not hard to slaughter marines in a 4x8 ft room from the ceiling...which is what you're average elevator is...
I think it's just the elevators that make it alien biased
Also a ducking bunnyhopping onos is a visual atrocity.
I love when skulks bunnyhop towards me, it's allmost as easy as hitting someone running in a straight line because it's so darn predictable. Even ankle biters are harder to dodge/shoot than bunnyhoppers.
If you awkwardly try to jump/run/wallclimb/whatever other means of closing distance without bhopping at a marine at the other end of a corridor, you die.
if you use the almighty bhop of doom to get to a marine at the other end of a corridor, you die.
Provided he has good aim.
sOmeone should do a poll... figure out what kind of gamers are playing NS. I'm not sure. I'm a hard-core FPS gamer, just a casual RTS gamer. I wonder why so many people can so strongly defend this game's current state, and wonder which genre (FPS or RTS) they are most strongly affiliated with. On one hand, maybe FPS gamers love NS because it *does* require so much concentration and sheer reflexes (but ultimately shallow feeling combat). On the other hand, maybe RTS gamers love NS because they 're not big FPS gamers to begin with.. and can ignore its huge flaws because they're really not part of the FPS genre anyway. hmm. Personally, I only play NS because I always get new mission objectives to accomplish. Like a dynamic mission generator in a flight sim. Keeps things fresh. Being a hardcore FPS gamer, though, I find the combat itself very weak and generally nothing to write home about. I can come out of a Day of Defeat game telling war stories to my friend, and he can tell them back. But in NS? No stories at all, the combat itself is so forgettable..
And as an RTS game.. well, since the same strategies are used 99% of the time.. it hardly feels like an RTS game at all. The FPS combat determines almost everything. I now believe RTS and FPS genres cannot be combined. FPS games just can't do that. RTS / RPG hybrid would work. RTT / FPS hybrid would work (real-time TACTICAL). That way, you have commanders pointing out weaknesses and generally overseeing the battles instead of making overbearing strategical decisions......... all this would work, but not RTS / FPS.
It takes a couple of times to learn something simple like blink hop, but it takes a fair time to be a great fade.
It takes a small time to become a average skulk but a very long time to become a great one - note that new people play skulk as a default and veterans also play skulk for the extreme skill of it which is kind of rare in a game. CS vets use a deagle while new ppl use mp5s...
I don't know, but remove the difficulty and depth of these playtypes and you'll just be simplifying and thus "overbalancing" the game, which will be boring(vets of 1.04 etc leaving?).... Didn't anybody watch and understand the matrix!!!
You're creating arbitrary genres where it's clear (from the fact that NS exists) they don't exist. Reality isn't a "RTS/FPS HYBRID GUYZ" and neither is NS. It's a fun strategy game with really challenging and <i>not</i> shallow combat. Its clear to you when you're playing that whether or not you kill this or that marine will affect whether or not you can drop the next hive and get your next upgrades. Plus, slow methodical RTS gaming? You've never played starcraft I suppose. Or C&C, or total annihilation, or etc.
I will, though, agree with you that aliens are not "newb-friendly." Figuring out how to kill with a skulk is a lot harder than figuring out how to kill as marine (aim, fire, run away?). I bet you anything you'd find that 95% of NS players are "hard-core" gamers - people who play more than 10 hours a week - because it has a rather steep learning curve.
I just think your characterization of people as FPS-gamers or RTS-gamers is missing the forest for the trees. Plus I think NS makes great stories.
Exactly.
Zigs, I love you man.
How are you suppose to rely on ambushing as skulk for every combat engagement?
I'm on ns_eclipse, I go down a hallway and a marine is already there. What do I do? Sorry, no ambushing now, I have to fight, and he kills me at range. If I went back and hid around the corner, he'd know - even the most newbie marine would be cautious when he goes after me or won't go after me at all. The skulks are rushing the marine spawn - they have no choice but to fight them, hiding will only give them more time to prepare.
Skulks will be forced to do head to head engagements against marines, you can't avoid it. The people who keep talking about "ambushing" and "hiding" are the ones who go marines each map or just save up for fade.
After parasiting, if he's not protecting anything and just kill whoring then
<b>leave him be</b> for the moment. Not every marine you see needs to feel your wrath. Infact he's probably standing there because of greedy skulks rushing him alone 6 or 7 times until they work out it doesn't work, or once they've ground down his health enough for him to be an easier kill - not a very efficient way of fighting.
I would wait with a teammate preferably, around the area to see what he does... as soon as he goes to build anything at all, that's his weakness and that's when you get a free ambush kill. The same marine has wasted 2 minutes being useless camping a corridor that is probably has 3 vent routes around it and soon as he's done something useful, he's a dead man. If he was say..camping horseshoe or triad, then those rooms are built for alien ambushes if played right.
There's nothing wrong with the skulk, or bunnyhopping at all. Its just people's approach to a lifeform that is so different from counterstrike/dod/tfc/anything.