As One Of The Players Who's Been On
Shockeh
If a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
If a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">A loooonnng time. (Discussion Point)</div> Hi guys,
I'd just like to give the summary of why I have just <b>utterly despised</b> the last few maps of NS I've recently played. I'd like to think I have a fairly decent reputation amongst the various forum goers, so please, excuse my rant for a moment. But I believe it frankly was the biggest mistake in the entire development process.
"I know, let's not curb bhop in any way, but just balance the game based on the fact that the aliens will bhop."
"But, won't that mean that every alien player who doesn't will be utterly screwed over by any marine that can find his own arse with an atlas?"
"Yeah, probably. But hey, who cares about those players anyway? They suck, don't they?"
Discuss.
- Shockwave
I'd just like to give the summary of why I have just <b>utterly despised</b> the last few maps of NS I've recently played. I'd like to think I have a fairly decent reputation amongst the various forum goers, so please, excuse my rant for a moment. But I believe it frankly was the biggest mistake in the entire development process.
"I know, let's not curb bhop in any way, but just balance the game based on the fact that the aliens will bhop."
"But, won't that mean that every alien player who doesn't will be utterly screwed over by any marine that can find his own arse with an atlas?"
"Yeah, probably. But hey, who cares about those players anyway? They suck, don't they?"
Discuss.
- Shockwave
Comments
However, you don't need a script to bhop. Jump and strafe to the left while looking to the right, then at the moment you hit the ground, jump and strafe to the right while looking to the left. Repeat as necessary. You won't gain speed this way, but you'll still be much harder to hit, which helps a lot.
Of course, the most important thing is to make every bite count, so that they don't have time to kill you once you get close. I see so many people who can't aim skulk bites worth a damn, they remind me of those wind-up plastic teeth with feet.
Sorry Sandstorm, think you've lost me there.
I don't particularily like the fact you *have* to, to survive. I can quite happily, not perfectly but adequately. The point wasn't 'whining because omg I lost because I can't bhop' (which <b>someone</b> will invariably do on the NS boards, and always has, GTFO ty very much <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->) but more to point out what I think is a fault with the game.
Of course, like anything else on here, it's just my opinion.
- Shockwave
What I'm saying is that if you buff skulks early game, they'll be way overpowered later on. Bhopping is a way to buff skulks without making them too overpowered later on.
<ul><li>Skulks are really hard to bunnyhop with as they just stick to everything</li><li>Onos are too big to be bunnyhopping everywhere you just hit the cieling whenever you try</li><li>Fades don't need to bunnyhop because of blink</li><li>Lerk's fly so they can't even bunnyhop anyway</li><li>Gorge is the only alien I can truly bunnyhop with as it is small, not incredibly fast, and it doesn't get stuck to walls.</li><li>Also that jump-slowdown thing is just boring, bunnyhopping is just plain fun.</li></ul>
if a skulk was able to run at a marine from a average hallway distance in NS and (not jumping in even the slightest of ways) only strafe to dodge bullets, that skulk would die right now in this version.
Lets take StarCraft as a example:
The Terran Marine in SC is designed so that it can take out a zergling one on one, as long as that zergling starts running at the marine from the very <i>edge</i> of his firing range. However, the marine will be heavilly damaged because the zerling LIVES LONG ENOUGH to reach the marine and hit him (for 5 damage; the marine has 40HP. ouch.) a few times... But the marine lives and the zergling dies; but only because the zergling has no way of evading those bullets, only reducing their damage through it's armor.
Now lets look at NS:
The normal marine in NS (LA/LMG) is designed to meet and defeat skulks at a medium range; or "before they reach him". He can spend 50 bullets on one target, expensive and inaccurate yes, but the marine will always get the skulk as long as he was able to attack sooner and has decent aim. Just like in starcraft, the marine will survive if he is attacked head-on. However, the skulk will gain the advantage much like the burrowed zergling if he waits in ambush.
Now here's the stupid part:
StarCraft has no way of units "missing" eachother. However, NS <b>always</b> has a way for units to "miss" eachother; it's a RTS/FPS hybrid. The marine can have shockingly good aim and the skulk can have shockingly good evasionary skills, so that it is about 50/50 hit/evade when there's no jumping from either side. However, bunny hopping INCREASES the "miss rate" of the marine or the "evasion" of the skulk so to speak and it suddenly becomes something like 25/75 for the marine hit chance/skulk evade chance and the exact same for the bunny hopping marine.
NOW, imagine the game was re-ballanced to put it to 50/50 hit/evade again, at least for the most part. As SOON as a player stops bunnyhopping around, it would be like 75/25 marine hit/alien evade ...
And 75/25 isn't ballanced.
Have to agree with you tho, more often then not getting killed by a bunnyhopper anit fun, just because they can bunnyhop they get to travel the map in secounds and charge marines while those that dont have to ambush and play the game like its meant.
I would be ok with bunnyhop if i felt it was right in a game like NS, but i really dont think it would be hard to remove it from the game, damage from guns could be sorted accordingly, as could lifeforms health.
Another thing i dont get is that they say bunnyhop is part of the game, so why anit thier instructions in the manuel how to bunnyhop.
1) Wallstrafing: Any time you have a flat wall to press against, strafing sideways against the wall while running forward will give you a moderate increase in your top speed as long as you hug the wall. You can test this in the vents at Nancy. You will shoot through the pipes like a greased turd. This also works for marines, and you can nearly outrun non-celerity onos. This phenomena can also be observed in our second alternative,
2) Floorstrafing: This works like wallstrafing, except you're staring 45 degrees down at the ground. You'll know you're doing it right when you can barely see the floor ahead of you out of the top of your front teeth. You get about as much speed as wallstrafing, but you can use this in rooms with bumpy walls. Unfortunately, it means running forward without being able to look forward. Not that good. Can't be done with marines, I don't think.
3) Zigzag running: This works for both marines and aliens. By wiggling back and forth as you walk by tapping left right left right left right left right strafe buttons, you boost your top speed by a little bit. This works because the moment you hit strafe while moving forward, you get a slight jump in your speed, which then slows down again once you're moving forward and to the side. Wigglewalking works because you get that small burst of speed every time you switch directions. The faster you do it, the higher you keep your top speed. Best of all, you don't make jumping noises, only running noises, which may trick people who have sensitive ears and don't expect you to turn the corner so quick. I heard someone say that this can be scripted once. If anyone wants to maybe follow up on that comment with evidence, link plz.
4) Camping: It doesn't matter how fast you can potentially go when all you need to do is hang upside down and wait in some dark hole in the roof for nearby marines. This is an alternative, so it's on the list. Against average pub marines, camping right around a corner in the roof will get you a kill the first time every time, assuming you know how to aim your bites.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see so many people who can't aim skulk bites worth a damn, they remind me of those <b>wind-up plastic teeth with feet.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->XD Rolf
5) Learning the vents: If you know shortcuts, you get there shorter. QED.
6) It was mentioned, but using walls and the roof if it's a small room will make your model do crazy things. You're harder to hit if you're moving in three dimensions. This is why lerks and fades are so nasty.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I know, let's not curb bhop in any way, but just balance the game based on the fact that the aliens will bhop."
"But, won't that mean that <b>every alien player who doesn't will be utterly screwed</b> over by any marine that can find his own arse with an atlas?"
"Yeah, probably. But hey, who cares about those players anyway? They suck, don't they?"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By "doesn't," do you mean "can't", or "won't?" I suppose it makes no difference in the end. If you can't be bothered to learn a new skill, that's your perogative. I know it's not because bhopping takes any great deal of ability once you see someone do it enough times and know how to yourself. If you can't or won't bhop, make due with what you actually <i>can</i> do. There's still enough skulk tricks to hold off the marines until later in the game. Particularly ambushing. Nadagast speaks truth.
Fer godsakes aiming is not a talent it's a skill. If you concentrate a little more on your ability to kill you'll play a lot better.
I find that bunnyhopping is a great way to get yourself waxed by a marine who can aim. Try sneaking around; dark corners are your friend. Hide in those little nooks and crannies. Hide in the vents, wait for them to pass, and stalk them. Of course, motion tracking negates ambushes, but rarely do marines get motion tracking before the second hive is up (where leap can close distances before the marines pull the trigger).
learning it takes time and practice, and you NEED a teacher. or you do it wrong. which annoys me.
bunnyhopping is more than just moving fast, its relaxing. even in the ready room ill do it out of habbit for no reason other than its fun.
but for thoes who truely can use it for max speed (go flying into a room from around a corner) its annoying. I cant go that fast (but i can outrun non-bh'ers).
personally, i'd like to see it gone. but i dont want some jump slowdown thing instead, skulks have enough brakes already (sticking to the ground, etc). I prepose get rid of bh, and put in a <b>'charge-up sprint key'</b>. press it and you have a stamina with which to sprint. you know, just enough to get into a room. or out of it. or up that wall. or into thoes mines because you are blind. :]
i actully like to play ns normaly with out bhop'in wallstrafing,floorstrafing,etc
and watching a leap+bhoping skulk r bhop'in ono makes me sad
EDIT: btw i think eVo has a good idea with the stamina sprint thing that would be neat tho u'd probly get some joker finding away around it and getting inf adren
Meh hl 2 may come out soonish, we can all have nice memories of our leet sklills as we toast our claws by the fusion reactor <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Have to agree with you tho, more often then not getting killed by a bunnyhopper anit fun, just because they can bunnyhop they get to travel the map in secounds and charge marines while those that dont have to ambush and play the game like its meant. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey Jasp,
I think it just really got to me. Admittedly, no mu is a 'special case' (SPECIAL!) as he is admittedly excellent at it. By the time he reaches you he'll be doing 200-250% of maximum skulk speed, in any corridor you care to pick.
However, it applies both ways. By the time you reach that point, a marine without a shotgun (because you're only really going to get one shot) is automatically dead, but in vice versa, playing against decent shots and <b>not</b> doing that automatically gets you killed. It basically ends up feeling like 'if you can/do do it, you win. If you can't/don't, you lose.' that to me, didn't feel like I lost due to any great play on the part of either player, but rather their ability to keep rhythm.
In which case, am I playing Dance Dance Natural Evolution? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As for whoever said it should be all about ambushing. Frankly, since static defenses are now generally impotent for marines (unless you were already winning, a few marines with weapons will be 1,000x more effective than any amount of static defense) the opus for marines is aggresive movement anyway, and that generally means you can't afford to ambush.
You wait for them, you lose.
- Shockwave
Addendum : If I read this, and then read some of my posts from when I first came to this crazy forum, it's highly depressing to see myself posting this, let alone the forums themselves. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Have to agree with you tho, more often then not getting killed by a bunnyhopper anit fun, just because they can bunnyhop they get to travel the map in secounds and charge marines while those that dont have to ambush and play the game like its meant. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey Jasp,
I think it just really got to me. Admittedly, no mu is a 'special case' (SPECIAL!) as he is admittedly excellent at it. By the time he reaches you he'll be doing 200-250% of maximum skulk speed, in any corridor you care to pick.
However, it applies both ways. By the time you reach that point, a marine without a shotgun (because you're only really going to get one shot) is automatically dead, but in vice versa, playing against decent shots and <b>not</b> doing that automatically gets you killed. It basically ends up feeling like 'if you can/do do it, you win. If you can't/don't, you lose.' that to me, didn't feel like I lost due to any great play on the part of either player, but rather their ability to keep rhythm.
In which case, am I playing Dance Dance Natural Evolution? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As for whoever said it should be all about ambushing. Frankly, since static defenses are now generally impotent for marines (unless you were already winning, a few marines with weapons will be 1,000x more effective than any amount of static defense) the opus for marines is aggresive movement anyway, and that generally means you can't afford to ambush.
You wait for them, you lose.
- Shockwave
Addendum : If I read this, and then read some of my posts from when I first came to this crazy forum, it's highly depressing to see myself posting this, let alone the forums themselves. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well Shockwave, bhop is capped at 170% so the max is probably about 175%. Nowhere near 200-250%... But you're mistaken... if you bhop at a good marine you'll get owned, the only way to have a chance vs a good marine is ambushing or using sheer numbers to overwhelm them. Vs bad marines, yes, bhop works well, but bhop has a very predictable motion and good marines will just track you very well and you'll die really really fast.
edit; wanted to add a few other notes as i read more through the thread.
-At this point I find it much easier to kill a bhopping skulk than one of them jiggleswinger(jumpup spinaround sorta things) skulks. Basicly cuz the rythm the bhop usually fall into is sooo predictable and smooth, that when shooting a skulk bhopping, it doesnt matter if it goes abit faster than a regular skulk, its much easier to hit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Have to agree with you tho, more often then not getting killed by a bunnyhopper anit fun, just because they can bunnyhop they get to travel the map in secounds and charge marines while those that dont have to ambush and play the game like its meant. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I havent read a statement saying this is how to play a game of ns, anyways, if u think u can bhop around the map and kill whoevers in ur path, JUST because of the bhop itself, ur wrong. Basicly if a marine dies due to a Bhopping alien, the same alien would most likely had killed u even if he wasnt, seeing as Bhop is merely a speedincrease to get around map, and not a ?berdeadlycombattool.
Apologies.
I don't know the maximum percentage increase, incidentally this is with leap being used as part of the hop.
Ambushing is great unless you happen to push the marine (who frankly deserves to die if he doesnt even look around the room before going in) 50ft away, giving him perfect opportunity to take me out before I can even clear the distance.
If this wasnt fixed in beta5 (which it is) I'd have something to say about this. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Have to agree with you tho, more often then not getting killed by a bunnyhopper anit fun, just because they can bunnyhop they get to travel the map in secounds and charge marines while those that dont have to ambush and play the game like its meant. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey Jasp,
I think it just really got to me. Admittedly, no mu is a 'special case' (SPECIAL!) as he is admittedly excellent at it. By the time he reaches you he'll be doing 200-250% of maximum skulk speed, in any corridor you care to pick.
However, it applies both ways. By the time you reach that point, a marine without a shotgun (because you're only really going to get one shot) is automatically dead, but in vice versa, playing against decent shots and <b>not</b> doing that automatically gets you killed. It basically ends up feeling like 'if you can/do do it, you win. If you can't/don't, you lose.' that to me, didn't feel like I lost due to any great play on the part of either player, but rather their ability to keep rhythm.
In which case, am I playing Dance Dance Natural Evolution? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As for whoever said it should be all about ambushing. Frankly, since static defenses are now generally impotent for marines (unless you were already winning, a few marines with weapons will be 1,000x more effective than any amount of static defense) the opus for marines is aggresive movement anyway, and that generally means you can't afford to ambush.
You wait for them, you lose.
- Shockwave
Addendum : If I read this, and then read some of my posts from when I first came to this crazy forum, it's highly depressing to see myself posting this, let alone the forums themselves. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well Shockwave, bhop is capped at 170% so the max is probably about 175%. Nowhere near 200-250%... But you're mistaken... if you bhop at a good marine you'll get owned, the only way to have a chance vs a good marine is ambushing or using sheer numbers to overwhelm them. Vs bad marines, yes, bhop works well, but bhop has a very predictable motion and good marines will just track you very well and you'll die really really fast. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
didn't flayra remove the cap at 170% ? i sure i've read that somehwere.
175% speed increase?
Blimey. I should get in on this action. Although I'm not really sure what bunnyhopping is. Surely with a speed increase like that, it should be taken out of the game? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I like to think I'm a reasonable player without it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Aiunno....off to learn bunnyhopping while it still exists.
In any case. I rarely encounter bhoppers, so I'm fairly neutral. As long as marines can't do it. In fact, only skulks should be able to do it, since they're the only ones meant for speed(and gorges who bhop to save their butts can suffer from not havnig teammates nearby like they should <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->).
- Shockwave
Its basically just a skill that takes a short amount of time to learn and really doesn't make a massive deal, partly because this game is balanced to take it into account.
Plus, as was posted earlier, there are plenty of ways to get speed boosts or to make speed unnecessary.
I never liked bunnyhopping because seeing a skulk bouncing down the next hall wrecked any sense of atmosphere about the game.
People bunnyhop because they're attached to their DMS. They bunnyhop because they don't like stealth; they don't know what the left shift key does. The ceiling means nothing to them other than the thing keeping them from being sucked into space. That dark corner is nother more than a dark corner to them.
To me? As a gorge, I resent DMS, but I resent being banned more. I don't bunnyhop, because the left shift key is my deadliest tool. The ceiling is another venue to bring death to the humans. The dark corner is guaranteed doom for the passerby.
I dare you guys. Just for a few games. Try not bunnyhopping. Learn how to combat the humans without bouncing up and down like a playground ball. Pester your gorges for movement or sensory. Eventually, you will pick up and learn the tactics of a hunter.
Admittedly, bunnyhopping is easier to learn. But when a marine expects that little bouncing ball to come around the corner and is ready to wax it, won't he be suprised when dead silence gives way to screaming and death?