Variation On Aliens: Where Has It Gone?
d0omie
Join Date: 2003-02-23 Member: 13877Members
Join Date: 2003-02-23 Member: 13877Members
In 1.04, the aliens had the following classes:
Skulk - default hit and run ambusher.
Gorge - 10 res. Sturdier than the skulk and normally able to hold its own against 1 marine, very important life form. If your gorge died it set you back a lot. Gorge made lots of OCs and DCs to protect your hives from a sneaky PG.
Lerk - 33 res. Perfect for removing PGs and TFs from a distance, killing JPers and if neccessary flying in to try and bite. With two hives becomes a wonderful support live form leading the aother aliens into victory against farms and HMGs. With three hives they could use spores to keep the marines dead, while the other life forms crushed the turret farms. A good counter to shotgunners and early Jps.
Fade-44 res. The foot trooper of the alien army. Most useful in large groups, they could hold their own against HA trains, best in long corridors or up at close quaters, weak at medium range. Could be killed easily if caught unawares or out manuovered. Acid rocket and swipe main attacks. Blink let them espace and enter comabt quickly. At 3 hives they became base destoyers with bile bomb.
Onos-75 res. The Onos was the ulitmate base destoryer. Capable of leveling a turrent form in seconds with charge. Paralise meant they could defend agaisnt Jps, but they were weak against an HA train would would shred them fairly quickly without umbra.
Now in 3.0 we have:
Skulks - hit and run ambushers. With two hives they leap around and bite.
Gorge 10 res - a tempory class mostly used to make RTs and DCs at the hive. Very weak in combat, but no real loss if they die. Effectively just makes Rts cost 25. OCs don't really do much any more so don't get built.
Lerk 30 res: Lerk can now fly more accuratly, but only in straight lines. Lost strafing and spikes. Useless for denying the marines a small area where they can gas, but if its essential medpacks soon negate it. Mostly fly around and bite. At two hives can make umbra, but it doesn't really make much differnece anymore. Stay in it and be an easier target, or leave and dodge fire. Die to shotgunners.
Fade- 50 res: Fades are now essentially upgraded skulks. They fly through the air and swipe. At two hives they can meta which just makes them have faster regen. At three hives can throw paper towels at marines. Die easily to 3 or more shotgunners.
Onos:75 res. Onos are good at killing unmanned turret farms. But a couple of shotgunners can kill them easily. Can act as a hit and run by running in and devouring then running away to digest. Very slow base speed makes them nearly usless without celerity.
Aliens are now far too similar in playing style...they are run in, attack a bit and leap/fly/blink out. We should bring back some of the variation from 1.04 in the roles the aliens play, so that shotguns won't be the best weapon against everything.
Skulk - default hit and run ambusher.
Gorge - 10 res. Sturdier than the skulk and normally able to hold its own against 1 marine, very important life form. If your gorge died it set you back a lot. Gorge made lots of OCs and DCs to protect your hives from a sneaky PG.
Lerk - 33 res. Perfect for removing PGs and TFs from a distance, killing JPers and if neccessary flying in to try and bite. With two hives becomes a wonderful support live form leading the aother aliens into victory against farms and HMGs. With three hives they could use spores to keep the marines dead, while the other life forms crushed the turret farms. A good counter to shotgunners and early Jps.
Fade-44 res. The foot trooper of the alien army. Most useful in large groups, they could hold their own against HA trains, best in long corridors or up at close quaters, weak at medium range. Could be killed easily if caught unawares or out manuovered. Acid rocket and swipe main attacks. Blink let them espace and enter comabt quickly. At 3 hives they became base destoyers with bile bomb.
Onos-75 res. The Onos was the ulitmate base destoryer. Capable of leveling a turrent form in seconds with charge. Paralise meant they could defend agaisnt Jps, but they were weak against an HA train would would shred them fairly quickly without umbra.
Now in 3.0 we have:
Skulks - hit and run ambushers. With two hives they leap around and bite.
Gorge 10 res - a tempory class mostly used to make RTs and DCs at the hive. Very weak in combat, but no real loss if they die. Effectively just makes Rts cost 25. OCs don't really do much any more so don't get built.
Lerk 30 res: Lerk can now fly more accuratly, but only in straight lines. Lost strafing and spikes. Useless for denying the marines a small area where they can gas, but if its essential medpacks soon negate it. Mostly fly around and bite. At two hives can make umbra, but it doesn't really make much differnece anymore. Stay in it and be an easier target, or leave and dodge fire. Die to shotgunners.
Fade- 50 res: Fades are now essentially upgraded skulks. They fly through the air and swipe. At two hives they can meta which just makes them have faster regen. At three hives can throw paper towels at marines. Die easily to 3 or more shotgunners.
Onos:75 res. Onos are good at killing unmanned turret farms. But a couple of shotgunners can kill them easily. Can act as a hit and run by running in and devouring then running away to digest. Very slow base speed makes them nearly usless without celerity.
Aliens are now far too similar in playing style...they are run in, attack a bit and leap/fly/blink out. We should bring back some of the variation from 1.04 in the roles the aliens play, so that shotguns won't be the best weapon against everything.
Comments
I would agree however. Pretty much all the classes (baring gorge) have to play hit and run.
Anyway, it's probably not going to change much anymore, Flayra has put so much work into the current versions, and they have been playtested so much, that reverting back to 1.04 stuff would have to be one of the biggest wastes of time in history. (well, not really)
I do think there should be a classic mode, combat mode, and classic classic mode, which allows you to play 1.04 with bugfixes and slight res changes (jetpack rush anyone?)
Providing aliens with comparable strats would allow more dynamic alien and marine games.
Personaly i think the best solution is increasing the power of the lerk as a brute force combat unit. When it comes down to the heavy battles the lerk fails at 1 hive.--the lerk needs more armor :/
The point is that now all the aliens are hit and run!
What could be done to correct this?
Spikes insdead of lerk gas. (lerks would need strafe keys to be active during flight again)
Acid rocket instead of meta at hive 2. (One that actually does damage)
Onos stomp is a really rubbish ability, not that I am dissing it per se, but in a a lot of maps a ramp or 2 level effect makes it useless. Also its far too short a time now and it looks silly having a marine stand still not shoot because you stomped the ground. Paralise (but where the marine had his finger locked on thi current trigger state) or stomp making marines drop their weapons in a random direction (less "magic" more immersive) might be better.
(and obvisouly hive 3 weapons all need boosting)
Edit: A thought just occured to me, what about making it so the aliens regenerate 1 point every 3 seconds for hive1, 2points for hive2 and 3 points of hive three. (reduce regen resepectively) this way getting a dc wouldn't be as important because the aliens would already have regen, albeit a very limited version.
Everything is bloody regen! Used to be that aliens took carapace for fighting marines, as long as the team's gorge was compatent and had put up regen stations around the map. Regen was used much less.
Now how many people use carapace on lerks.fades.onos? The carapce armour boost should be increased. It used to be 3 times your life for a lerk! this is too much, but it should be between 1.5 and 2 times as much life.
Redemption has been nerfed to hell by the new armour system (why did they do that anyway? the old one was much better) Now when it triggers on your health % (which used to be your % of total hits, now its not) you are normally dead. It should be changed to take into account armour/maxarmour too.
Fades all seem to use celerity, I take celerity now as a fade,lerk,onos,skulk,gorge normally. Silence somtimes and hardly ever adrenaline. Blink works whatever adren you are on, so adrenaline is pointless. Also all base speeds of lifeforms seem slower in 3.0, onos and fade NEED celerity to be able to catch a marine and kill him.
SoF, Cloacking and focus all seem to be used a good ammount though, when SCs do go down.
Everything is bloody regen! Used to be that aliens took carapace for fighting marines, as long as the team's gorge was compatent and had put up regen stations around the map. Regen was used much less.
Now how many people use carapace on lerks.fades.onos? The carapce armour boost should be increased. It used to be 3 times your life for a lerk! this is too much, but it should be between 1.5 and 2 times as much life.
Redemption has been nerfed to hell by the new armour system (why did they do that anyway? the old one was much better) Now when it triggers on your health % (which used to be your % of total hits, now its not) you are normally dead. It should be changed to take into account armour/maxarmour too.
Fades all seem to use celerity, I take celerity now as a fade,lerk,onos,skulk,gorge normally. Silence somtimes and hardly ever adrenaline. Blink works whatever adren you are on, so adrenaline is pointless. Also all base speeds of lifeforms seem slower in 3.0, onos and fade NEED celerity to be able to catch a marine and kill him.
SoF, Cloacking and focus all seem to be used a good ammount though, when SCs do go down. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then the fades you mention before would be way strong, I usually carafade and can have an easy time downing 1-2 shotunners before healing. Upping cara might be too strong.
Generally I feel that skulks are way too weak against marines who can aim, however beefing skulks up might kill the regular pubber.
This would be good in my opinion, requires marines to go in groups instead of rambo.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=71686' target='_blank'><b><u><span style='color:yellow'><span style='font-size:19pt;line-height:100%'>UNCHAIN THE CHAMBERS</span></span></b></u></a>
</span>
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
However I agree with many other points here, like regen feeling a bit uber compared to cara right now, and about acid rocket sucking (compared to it being a hive3 ability anyway)
Increase W1 research time by a full minute. MC's are back in...
Dunno, I am shooting from the hip here, I could be way off..
/silverwing
But the variation between alien lifeforms is the most uninteresting part of NS at the moment, marines fight most aliens the same way. I remember great running battles in corridors in 1.04, where marines would advance under an acid hail, pull into an alcove to weld and reload, then advance round the corner with LMG fire, with one or two shotties for cover if the fades tried to rush, but not everyone with shotties. Made it more interesting.
Same against lerks, marines just charge at most aliens now, in the knoledge that they are safe at any distance apart from melee.
Increase W1 research time by a full minute. MC's are back in...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with this is that it still only makes them effective early game. They should be viable throughout the entire game, not mostly nullified once marines get certain tech completed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would absolutely hate to see redemp being beefed. It´s a very annoying ability for the rines... the damn alien should DIE or manage to escape... not magically disappear when you´ve almost killed it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Redemption either needs to be boosted so it is useful, or removed and replaced with something worthwhile. Right now it is a complete waste to get as an alien.
As far as regen being too good an ability (making everything else underused), I say give aliens a "natural" regen of 4% of their total health every two seconds, but only if they haven't been damaged in the last two seconds (numbers subject to change, but an onos should heal more than a skulk). Then, remove the regen upgrade and replace it with something else. Aliens keep regen, all chambers become viable.
As far as a lack of variety on the alien side, I say give lerks spikes instead of spores (you don't need spores with spikes). Then, switch acid rocket and metabolize. If acid rocket is moved to hive 2, it doesn't need to beefed up. Metabolize probably would need boosting as a hive 3 ability, though.
its fine i think, just mess with Redemption
not get rid of regain, just to do the same thing
Give aliens a small passive regen so the regen upgrade is not an absolute necessity.
Oh, and Flayra, I'm still waiting on Spumbra and Spikes for the Lerk.
*shakes fist like a senile old man*
Luckily, the vets were able to talk Flayra out of at least one bad desicion before they were disbanded.
amen
*whimper*
However I agree with many other points here, like regen feeling a bit uber compared to cara right now, and about acid rocket sucking (compared to it being a hive3 ability anyway) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to agree
Think back to 2.0... and WHY they nerfed redempt in the first place...
REMEMBER INVULNERABLE ONOS's?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->?
coem on... tell me im not the only one who thinks briefly of past builds in relation to current suggestions..
~Jason
[13:37:24] <Flayra|IAmGod> For the future of NS, I envision a game where **Blah blah blah, here he listed off a bunch of unimportant goals and ambitions, planned balance changes, features, and community events, he explained the BUS in full, etc. Let's get to the important part.**
[13:37:40] <[FFT]KaMiKaZe> Well, could you do one thing just for me?
[13:37:56] <Flayra|IAmGod> Of course I can, as you are my favourite person in the whole world.
[13:38:12] <[FFT]KaMiKaZe> Please give the Lerk Spikes and Spumbra. It would complete this miserable existance I call life.
[13:38:27] <Flayra|IAmGod> It shall be done. I love you, let's get hitched.
[13:38:43] * [FFT]KaMiKaZe squeals for joy
[13:38:50] <[FFT]KaMiKaZe> Oh Flayra, I love you so!
[13:39:08] * Flayra|IAmGod picks up his bride-to-be and flies off into the sunset<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Disclaimer: The preceding conversation may or <i>may not</i> have been completely fabricated.</span>
But the variation between alien lifeforms is the most uninteresting part of NS at the moment, marines fight most aliens the same way. I remember great running battles in corridors in 1.04, where marines would advance under an acid hail, pull into an alcove to weld and reload, then advance round the corner with LMG fire, with one or two shotties for cover if the fades tried to rush, but not everyone with shotties. Made it more interesting.
Same against lerks, marines just charge at most aliens now, in the knoledge that they are safe at any distance apart from melee. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I remember a 1.04 game that went for just over 3 hours. 3 hrs 12mins 43 secs
It was <i>the</i> best game ive <i>ever</i> played to date. There was a battle going on everywhere, i was commander for 2 and a half hours, i can tell you it wasnt easy either. Because there were ACTUAL COUNTERS for all the rushes that were employed. Shotfunners were annihilated by acid rockets from 2 fades in the 2nd hive. Their counter was countered by decent lmgers, and a little bit of welding action from a jet packer <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
These battles formed the best game i played, i was so engrossed that i didnt realise it hads been 3 hours. Nower days it gets to the point where all marines get shotties and an armoury outside the alien hive and completely destroy it, or early fades go thru and systematically take out all rt's. Lerk doewstn get played much, just skulk, fade and the occasional onos. Bring bac kthe variation.
I could go on for longer but u dun wanna hear the ramblings of an old vet.
Best of all is that each and every player mattered in one way or another...
There is a large topic going on about making all chambers avalable at one hive. Or you r could read about it by clicking <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=71686' target='_blank'>here</a> or <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=28860&hl=' target='_blank'>here</a>
If you thinks its a worth while cause or a stupid idea then feel free to vote <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72187&view=getnewpost' target='_blank'>here</a>
Thanks