<!--QuoteBegin-moomin.+May 27 2004, 11:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moomin. @ May 27 2004, 11:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok then, I take it you never played against skilled marines.
You say there were more tactics for aliens in clan play then? You've only said skulk and gorge rush. Unless I'm mistaken, can't you do that now? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You also could get rushed with jp and hmg in 1.04. And you could get your 2 hives locked down. And you could have one gorge that gets killed. Uhm yeah, whatever =D
The lack of variety in clanplay isn't a result of the game - its VERY VERY much more the fact that clans are only willing to try the strategies that the top clan(s) use(s).
Clan tactics have almost always revolved around what the top clans were using - in fact, I can remember a week where a large number of teams went sensory after exigent used sensory (successfully) against bacon men in CAL.
The game is beautiful, and very very very very very few people recognize that. Almost everything can work - its just that very few people are willing to try.
edit:
Of course, pulling off a new strategy requires strong teamwork and strong leadership, both of which are (unfortunately) in short supply. But that's not a fault of the people - NS is just a very new game and few people have invested both the amount of critical thought and hours of clan-play in order to realize these strategies.
And if you are missing either of those elements, then you will be stuck with imitating what everyone else is doing.
That's the other thing. Strategy in ns is subordinate to teamwork and deathmatching. Incredible teamwork can (I think) trump incredible deathmatching, and incredible deathmatching can trump most any given strategy.
You go with SC's, and all marines have to do is lockdown your hive.
You have exactly ONE FREAKING SHOT to prevent both hives from being locked down, and you have to get up your first hive on the first try.
Not easy, not easy at all. Esp. considering fades have no way to heal quickly at their second hive location.
You go with MC's and you are <b>limiting</b> yourself. Not only must you get up your first hive as the hives can be locked down, but once at the scene of the battle:
- You cannot heal quickly (regen) - You do not take extra damage (carapace) - You... move faster? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> Move silently? Have unlimited movement? All useless as good shots won't miss you no matter what.
Your benfits of MC first:
- Killer lerks - Super healspray gorges
Both die in 2 sg shots or less.
MC = GG you lose.
Seriously, what needs to be done is the alien team should be able to build a chamber at any time. The number of hives they have is the amount of upgrades they can take at once.
You will ALWAYS need D chambers, because you need something that takes a little abuse (fades), or else you cannot attack and aliens NEED to attack at the mid point of the game, they simply cannot defend forever.
However, if you could build MC's and SC's at any time, the smaller classes could benifit from the field upgrades and chamber upgrades they give to smaller lifeforms.
Silence on skulks, for example, owns very well, but cannot win you the game, as well as celerity/adren lerks, as well as adren gorges (or a gorge next to a movement chamber), cloaked skulks, etc. etc.
But the basis for the alien game is the D chamber, not matter what. You simply need it to advance. Aliens can be as passive as they want, but once marines are seiging from some outside point aliens are drawn out to attack and they need the capacity to charge, which is only granted from D chambers.
Sorry if people don't like to hear this, but it's the truth, pure and simple.
Right, but those DCs hurt you just as well while defending the 2nd Hive - only your Fades can stay in the battle, which might or might not be enough to keep the entire Marine team at bay. Not to mention that both your Hive and RTs need to be held with whats essentially upgradeless Skulks, and if that doesn't work a standard DC strat stops dead in its tracks.
From there, we can just say aliens are extremely constrained (whereas marines can have their cake and eat it too), but none of the 3 options is really the only viable one.
<!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+May 27 2004, 11:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ May 27 2004, 11:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Right, but those DCs hurt you just as well while defending the 2nd Hive - only your Fades can stay in the battle, which might or might not be enough to keep the entire Marine team at bay. Not to mention that both your Hive and RTs need to be held with whats essentially upgradeless Skulks, and if that doesn't work a standard DC strat stops dead in its tracks.
From there, we can just say aliens are extremely constrained (whereas marines can have their cake and eat it too), but none of the 3 options is really the only viable one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Only the fades?
They are 10x better than just a bunch of cloacked skulks or MC upgraded skulk/lerk/gorge cluster.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin-Petco+May 28 2004, 03:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Petco @ May 28 2004, 03:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Back in 2.0 and maybe 1.04 or so, Skulk rushes usally killed marines and that was about 25% of the time victory already to the aliens. Same for gorge rushes except like 80% chance to win. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This can still be the case. Smart skulk rushes are very devestating to the marine team.
2. MCs are COMPLETELY viable and a much better strat on larger maps. DC aliens who are forced to defend a second 'building' hive on large maps can easily be cut off.
MC provides: instant teleportation just by having one skulk biting the hive (map control) silence provides excellent multi-angle rushing, as most marines depend on listening for the second and third skulks (exceptions being motion tracking and wall hackers) the ability to get the hive across the map (instead of always getting adjacent) and still provide good coverage, in effect, giving you coverage of the entire half of the map. the ability to put up (and DEFEND) a second hive2 if the first one goes down/gets locked down
Again, Forlorn, your view of the game remains very limited to the traditional method of play. Silence in the open games is incredibly effective for multiangle rushes - you're not asking your skulks to go 1v1 against the marines. All that's required for effective use of alternate chambers is a change in play styles - it doesn't make the chambers any less effective.
Edit: with DCs, to defend the second hive, aliens can only come from one direction. Add movement, suddenly the marines have to watch for rushes from both directions. And you CANNOT deny the importance of distraction in battle - its what teamwork relies on. DC Fades (on a large map) will either get chopped up in the field or just be generally unable to be effective at such a long range. MC would be able to provide the entire team (key: GORGES TO HEAL FADES) to cover the second hive. With the gorges there, both the cooldown and distance effects are negated.
2. MCs are COMPLETELY viable and a much better strat on larger maps. DC aliens who are forced to defend a second 'building' hive on large maps can easily be cut off.
MC provides: instant teleportation just by having one skulk biting the hive (map control) silence provides excellent multi-angle rushing, as most marines depend on listening for the second and third skulks (exceptions being motion tracking and wall hackers) the ability to get the hive across the map (instead of always getting adjacent) and still provide good coverage, in effect, giving you coverage of the entire half of the map. the ability to put up (and DEFEND) a second hive2 if the first one goes down/gets locked down
Again, Forlorn, your view of the game remains very limited to the traditional method of play. Silence in the open games is incredibly effective for multiangle rushes - you're not asking your skulks to go 1v1 against the marines. All that's required for effective use of alternate chambers is a change in play styles - it doesn't make the chambers any less effective. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Alright..now..take what you just said, and take away everything that does not coincide with what Forlorn believes. Nothing left you say? Oh..snap. Thats what he just saw. I'de suggest quickly retreating to a post where hes not spending his attention to make any progress.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+May 27 2004, 11:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ May 27 2004, 11:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sorry if people don't like to hear this, but it's the truth, pure and simple.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Forlorn is completely right.
IMO the marine siege guns are a significant factor in the lack of viable alien strats. They take away the viability of heavily defended choke points, dbl res defense, hive defence - I mean why should a gorge defend a hive with OCs ? 1 Siege and all that res is history. OK I know, the defence against siege is prevention - if the marines are given enough time to build a siege then the alien team sucks anyway.
I say that if there was no siege to threaten alien structures, more viable build strats would come into play...gorges could build a offensive staging area, basically a safe zone to heal attacking units - yes you can do it now, but if it is effective the comm will start sieges and and a few pings will turn the safe zone into a slaughter house.
This opinion of mine can be tested...orginise a friendly clan match whereby both clans agree not to use siege, no matter what. Then try a few build strats with the gorge without having to worry about siege, I believe there will be a big difference mid-game.
BTW: I wonder if 1.04 would still be as fun as the ye olde players remember, but with the current NS popularity?
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+May 27 2004, 11:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ May 27 2004, 11:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+May 27 2004, 11:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ May 27 2004, 11:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Right, but those DCs hurt you just as well while defending the 2nd Hive - only your Fades can stay in the battle, which might or might not be enough to keep the entire Marine team at bay. Not to mention that both your Hive and RTs need to be held with whats essentially upgradeless Skulks, and if that doesn't work a standard DC strat stops dead in its tracks.
From there, we can just say aliens are extremely constrained (whereas marines can have their cake and eat it too), but none of the 3 options is really the only viable one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Only the fades?
They are 10x better than just a bunch of cloacked skulks or MC upgraded skulk/lerk/gorge cluster. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Right, but they won't win the Hive standoff by default either - 2 Fades have trouble killing 4/5 guys. Odds can be just as good with a Lerk and a bunch of MC Skulks, and/or one MC Fade.
Edit: And snooger no, sieges aren't exactly your primary competitive tool to kill any OC, since they're expensive as all hell. Distracting fire with structures or just using SGs and meds is alot easier and faster. And primarily structure-dropping is the reason walls of lame aren't terribly effective.
That aside, fighting static defense isn't fun. I've always disliked that the game has it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But the basis for the alien game is the D chamber, not matter what. You simply need it to advance. Aliens can be as passive as they want, but once marines are seiging from some outside point aliens are drawn out to attack and they need the capacity to charge, which is only granted from D chambers.
Sorry if people don't like to hear this, but it's the truth, pure and simple. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Questions for Forlorn: Why do you need DCs to advance? Why do SCs work? Why DONT MCs work?
Why do aliens REQUIRE passive play? They don't. Aliens can play very aggressively and prevent marines from making major progress past a choke point. Again, this is the traditional get-two-nodes-and-sit-on-them strategy that is absolutely vunerable to one sensor scan. Aliens with silence don't have to walk to get into ambush position, and thus can arrange ambushes with (stealing arbitrary numbers) "10x" more speed and "10x" less chance of giving up their position.
Even if aliens don't use silence, how differently do the aliens play for the first 4 minutes of the game? MOST clanplay skulks DON'T upgrade in the first place. MOST clanplay teams DON'T put up the second hive before they have their fades anyways (to protect the hive!)
With MCs, the moment that second hive comes up and the aliens are able to travel between both of the hives, and as long as they have gorges healing, the fades have a far greater defensive capability AND greater mobility between hives. DCs only offer the defensive ability at the first hive, and do not offer the mobility to defend the second hive.
So you're saying the key to the MC strat is the second hive? When is the second hive NOT key to the DC strat?! MC simply offers a more versatile solution to 1 1/2-hive protection than DCs do. Because with DCs, fades are the only things that can truly defend that second hive. With MCs, you are able to involve 6 out of 6 members of your team, instead of 2 out of 6. And tell me that isn't an advantage.
edit:
In addition, your criticisms of MC aliens are terribly simplified and are limited to 1v1 situations. You fail to address the increased effectiveness of teamwork with the use of MCs.
Fades are very important in clanplay because they are the only alien unit that can actually be used to confront marines head on (besides onos). Versus good marines any skulk/lerk/gorge who would try a head on assult, even with bhop and good movement, would fail. Once the 2nd hive is built skulks become able to attack head on in some situations because of leap. The problem is that it takes 6+ mintutes for a 2nd hive to come up in clanmatch and chances are that unless the marines are truely not doing anything to try and stop it then aliens are going to have to make a head on assult.
The reason that DC's are the most popular chamber choice is because Defence allows the greatest benifits to head-on assults, while minimizing the risk of losing a valuable fade. Movement chambers first may allow aliens to transport to building hives or move silently but what good does that do when marines are seiging a hive? In such situations fades will need to take as much punishment as they can and because the hive is building that means they need to be able to heal on thier own, or have a TON of armor w/ carapace. Sensory doesn't tend to work for the same reason.
Granted a good team can make anything work, but this just seems to be the popular trend.
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
cocacolaa, what u stated bout mc is redundant. mc will give u the silence for quick ambushes/ cloaking works just as well mc will let u teleport to another hive... thats really it.
sc gives u map control sc sets up great ambushes/ remember skulks are not supposed to be moving...
dc overall helps in battle
i tend to agree with forlorn. mc doesn't really work in clan matches unless u plan to silence rush the rine base.
sc requires much more teamwork and coordination, but if done properly is much more effective than dc and mc. map control over the first few minutes of a game is great.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Travis Dane+May 27 2004, 06:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Travis Dane @ May 27 2004, 06:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Raistlin666+May 27 2004, 05:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Raistlin666 @ May 27 2004, 05:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but i think that NS 1.0x had more possibilities than NS 3.0 has. Is it just me or has NS lost its depth which would explain why so many people want 1.04 back.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <span style='color:white'>The pitcher throws:</span> Step 1: Buy a nice heavy metal wrench. <span style='color:white'>The batter swings:</span> Step 2: Remove it from it's packaging. <span style='color:white'>The refree shouts:</span> Step 3: Proceed to <span style='color:white'>Striiiike ooooone!</span>
1.04 had 1 viable strategy for the marines: JP+HMG. And 1 for the aliens: A 2nd hive (webs+fade+leap GG Game Over!).
As for 1.04 nostalgia, it's a load <span style='color:white'>Striiiiike twoooo!</span> 1.04 was a terrible build, i'll just have to assume people claiming 1.04 was more 'fun' than current NS versions, dint play it quite enuff. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think Nem is getting bored of how he locks topics..... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Apart from the method it was presented, I'd partially agree with Travis. The game has improved, drastically in some areas.
However :
1) We still effectively have a single build order for aliens. DC's still dominate.
2) 1.04 did somehow have the 'magic' playability that 2.x onwards seems to have missed.
What to do about these? No idea. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
the things that made 1.04 seem more fun are, imho, thusly (sorry for going OT, but ppl keep on mentioning it)
-slower res accumulation -everything was HELLA lot more expensive -locking down hives was actually viable, somewhat. -game was more methodically paced.
Way back i remember a post discuassing this. At the end of the day sc and mc are not attacking chambers. Even if mt vanishes, as i think it ought to silence is still useless because you cannot sneak your skulks in to launch a multi sided attack. Most ns maps are bare corridors with zero cover.
<!--QuoteBegin-ssjyoda+May 28 2004, 08:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ssjyoda @ May 28 2004, 08:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> cocacolaa, what u stated bout mc is redundant. mc will give u the silence for quick ambushes/ cloaking works just as well mc will let u teleport to another hive... thats really it.
sc gives u map control sc sets up great ambushes/ remember skulks are not supposed to be moving...
dc overall helps in battle
i tend to agree with forlorn. mc doesn't really work in clan matches unless u plan to silence rush the rine base.
sc requires much more teamwork and coordination, but if done properly is much more effective than dc and mc. map control over the first few minutes of a game is great. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. cloaking works just as well yes! its not DC is it?
2. teleport to another hive that is IT? why the hell do you think phase gates are so powerful? it's not because they sparkle.
3. dc helps overall in battle so do gorges healing fades in battle, except these gorges/fades can move all over the map instead of having to fall back to one spot (read: original hive) to heal.
LIMITED THINKING. Everyone's supposed use of mc strats are with gimmick tactics, like "silence rushing" the base.
The following situation is one of the most common situations in clanplay - 1 hive going up, fades just coming out, marines making an assault TOWARDS the second hive.
Regen won't save a fade from shotguns. Cara won't allow a fade to heal in the field. And will probably only mean a very bare difference in saving a fade from shotguns. In the end, Fades need to pick their battles.
If the gorges healing the fades in battle die, they lose a LOT of position, and will be able to be cut off by marines from their second hive. It's true that breaking a siege is very difficult, but do DCs really make that much of a difference if: Regen won't save a fade from a marine pack. Cara won't save a fade from a marine pack. Skulks will have to travel from their original hive and be, more or less, forced to throw themselves at the marines who are in PERFECT position to cut them off?
You're basically putting the entire siege breaking responsibility on two aliens (at best) who will be able to blink in for two swipes (at best). Why not use a chamber that allows the other 4 people on your team to be far more effective?
How are 2 DC fades better than 2 MC Fades and 4 Aliens? Because with DCs, those 4 aliens are nearly ineffectual when they have to defend that second hive. And basically, the DCs only benefit the fades (skulks don't upgrade) - but a strong group of marines basically negates the paltry regeneration benefit that DCs give.
And - which is a faster cooldown time? 1. DC fade who needs to travel to the hive1 (the only hive up) to heal and then come back to fight. 2. MC fade who can use MC at the second half-built hive, heal, and then be back in the same position (with a skulk using - gasp, teamwork - and biting the second hive).
Once again, you are taking the benefits of DCs on 1v1 situations and extrapolating them to apply to the entire team. As much as social complexity increases as members increase, SO DOES TEAMWORK AND ITS EFFECTIVENESS.
PLUS: you forget the fundamental aspect of teamwork - since a marine can ONLY shoot in one direction at any given time, why give the marines the benefit of only having to watch one direction? Being able to come from both sides keeps marines off-balance and subject to mistakes.
The fact that every alien plan relies on brute strength bashing and very inflexible and predictable strategies is the reason why it's becoming so much easier for marines to adapt their gameplay.
<!--QuoteBegin-El Pollo Loco+May 28 2004, 06:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (El Pollo Loco @ May 28 2004, 06:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fades are very important in clanplay because they are the only alien unit that can actually be used to confront marines head on (besides onos). Versus good marines any skulk/lerk/gorge who would try a head on assult, even with bhop and good movement, would fail. Once the 2nd hive is built skulks become able to attack head on in some situations because of leap. The problem is that it takes 6+ mintutes for a 2nd hive to come up in clanmatch and chances are that unless the marines are truely not doing anything to try and stop it then aliens are going to have to make a head on assult.
The reason that DC's are the most popular chamber choice is because Defence allows the greatest benifits to head-on assults, while minimizing the risk of losing a valuable fade. Movement chambers first may allow aliens to transport to building hives or move silently but what good does that do when marines are seiging a hive? In such situations fades will need to take as much punishment as they can and because the hive is building that means they need to be able to heal on thier own, or have a TON of armor w/ carapace. Sensory doesn't tend to work for the same reason.
Granted a good team can make anything work, but this just seems to be the popular trend. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly El Pollo, MCs allow you to get a flank on the marines, so you don't have to attack them "head-on".
Very few teams team use finesse, distraction, coordination, to win a game in favor of brute skill bashing.
and i'm sorry, but, this would have to be one of those rare topics that, unless you are intimately familiar with strong, organized teamplay, you are probably missing a lot of perspective required to make any valid statements.
There shouldn't really be an arguement... The bottom line is that vs the best teams Skulks just *DO NOT* cut it. You need Fades. To get an effective Fade, you NEED regen. This problem could be solved in multiple ways which I've suggested (and been ignored) in the past.
<!--QuoteBegin-cocacolaa+May 28 2004, 02:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cocacolaa @ May 28 2004, 02:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Very few teams team use finesse, distraction, coordination, to win a game in favor of brute skill bashing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> nope, ALL good and semi-decent teams use this, the only teams that use brute skill bash tactics are new less experenced teams. As most exp players know using brute tactics as aliens does not work, aliens must time their attacks and pick their battles in order to be effective.
And vs good marines MC and SC benifits are very limited because the benifts they give are easily countered.
Silence is countered by motion tracking and marines checking behind them(which all good marines do by habit) Adren, helps gorges heal more (easier to place DCs in a hidden map spot so the healer gorge could go skulk and actually do something productive since gorge +skulk rushes dont work anymore thanks to new skulk HP/AR) Helps lerks fly longer and fades blink longer (good because they'll need to run alot faster being they can't self regen) Celerity helps aliens move faster (doesnt matter how fast you move bullets move even faster and a good marine will hit you with nearly every one of them) an alternative might be allowing aliens to better run at marines head on, but like you just said this "brute skill bashing" does not work.
Clocking, 2 Obs + scan = worthless upgrades Focus, lvl 1 amor(the first upgrade for good teams) + welding = worthless upgrades Scent of Fear, lets you seen rines, (works but so does paracite)
<!--QuoteBegin-cocacolaa+May 28 2004, 02:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cocacolaa @ May 28 2004, 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and i'm sorry, but, this would have to be one of those rare topics that, unless you are intimately familiar with strong, organized teamplay, you are probably missing a lot of perspective required to make any valid statements. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yes this is why nearly all the clanners have replyed that DC is the way to go.
MT, at 20+35 res, is the largest tech investment available in the early game, and significantly delays your upgrade sequence / node placing.
Do marines check their backs WHILE they're firing? Marines only know that a marine is rushing from the back when they can hear the alien coming. I never said that silence skulks should operate alone. I said that they increase the effectiveness of an ambush by limiting the marine awareness of the situation.
Do DCs offer any advantage before fades? Basically, no, since neither skulks or gorges upgrade, both as a cause of needing to save for upgrades and the general ineffectiveness of DCs for lower lifeforms.
Celerity can mean the difference between making it around the corner and not. Adrenaline for lerks who DONT wander in front of shotguns allows them to be far more mobile and use their abilities more often than not.
There are few "hidden" spots (spots where a marine can't boost in) on a map. Having a static fallback spot introduces predictability and inflexibility to your strategy (why not have a marine waiting for the fade to come back to the DCs? instead, have your "healing station" able to move around with you and as you need and even BETWEEN hives).
And even if you can self-regen, you're still out of action for a very long time, because regen isn't exactly the fastest thing on earth.
And hobojoe: True, but I wanted to keep this topic somewhat well-informed.
El Pollo: Clue me in again on how groupthink = correct? Amelek was the only clanner who applied any sort of critical thought and analysis towards the game. Everyone else just sort of "plays" the game. Which was my original contention: that people would rather imitate what the top clans do than to truly attempt to alter gameplay and playstyle.
cocacolaa are you even in a clan? Have you played against good marines...? You absolutely need fades out. Period. Well aimed shotguns can just rip skulks a new one. 2 shotties can easily take out an entire team of skulks.
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-e.Nadagast+May 28 2004, 02:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ May 28 2004, 02:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> cocacolaa are you even in a clan? Have you played against good marines...? You absolutely need fades out. Period. Well aimed shotguns can just rip skulks a new one. 2 shotties can easily take out an entire team of skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 2 shotties can also easily take out a fade
Comments
You say there were more tactics for aliens in clan play then? You've only said skulk and gorge rush. Unless I'm mistaken, can't you do that now? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You also could get rushed with jp and hmg in 1.04. And you could get your 2 hives locked down. And you could have one gorge that gets killed.
Uhm yeah, whatever =D
Clan tactics have almost always revolved around what the top clans were using - in fact, I can remember a week where a large number of teams went sensory after exigent used sensory (successfully) against bacon men in CAL.
The game is beautiful, and very very very very very few people recognize that. Almost everything can work - its just that very few people are willing to try.
edit:
Of course, pulling off a new strategy requires strong teamwork and strong leadership, both of which are (unfortunately) in short supply. But that's not a fault of the people - NS is just a very new game and few people have invested both the amount of critical thought and hours of clan-play in order to realize these strategies.
And if you are missing either of those elements, then you will be stuck with imitating what everyone else is doing.
Not top clans might not have the ability to form their own workable strats and pull them off so they just copy.
Strategy in ns is subordinate to teamwork and deathmatching. Incredible teamwork can (I think) trump incredible deathmatching, and incredible deathmatching can trump most any given strategy.
You go with SC's, and all marines have to do is lockdown your hive.
You have exactly ONE FREAKING SHOT to prevent both hives from being locked down, and you have to get up your first hive on the first try.
Not easy, not easy at all. Esp. considering fades have no way to heal quickly at their second hive location.
You go with MC's and you are <b>limiting</b> yourself. Not only must you get up your first hive as the hives can be locked down, but once at the scene of the battle:
- You cannot heal quickly (regen)
- You do not take extra damage (carapace)
- You... move faster? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> Move silently? Have unlimited movement? All useless as good shots won't miss you no matter what.
Your benfits of MC first:
- Killer lerks
- Super healspray gorges
Both die in 2 sg shots or less.
MC = GG you lose.
Seriously, what needs to be done is the alien team should be able to build a chamber at any time. The number of hives they have is the amount of upgrades they can take at once.
You will ALWAYS need D chambers, because you need something that takes a little abuse (fades), or else you cannot attack and aliens NEED to attack at the mid point of the game, they simply cannot defend forever.
However, if you could build MC's and SC's at any time, the smaller classes could benifit from the field upgrades and chamber upgrades they give to smaller lifeforms.
Silence on skulks, for example, owns very well, but cannot win you the game, as well as celerity/adren lerks, as well as adren gorges (or a gorge next to a movement chamber), cloaked skulks, etc. etc.
But the basis for the alien game is the D chamber, not matter what. You simply need it to advance. Aliens can be as passive as they want, but once marines are seiging from some outside point aliens are drawn out to attack and they need the capacity to charge, which is only granted from D chambers.
Sorry if people don't like to hear this, but it's the truth, pure and simple.
From there, we can just say aliens are extremely constrained (whereas marines can have their cake and eat it too), but none of the 3 options is really the only viable one.
From there, we can just say aliens are extremely constrained (whereas marines can have their cake and eat it too), but none of the 3 options is really the only viable one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only the fades?
They are 10x better than just a bunch of cloacked skulks or MC upgraded skulk/lerk/gorge cluster.
This can still be the case. Smart skulk rushes are very devestating to the marine team.
1. You neglect to cover sensory.
2. MCs are COMPLETELY viable and a much better strat on larger maps. DC aliens who are forced to defend a second 'building' hive on large maps can easily be cut off.
MC provides:
instant teleportation just by having one skulk biting the hive (map control)
silence provides excellent multi-angle rushing, as most marines depend on listening for the second and third skulks (exceptions being motion tracking and wall hackers)
the ability to get the hive across the map (instead of always getting adjacent) and still provide good coverage, in effect, giving you coverage of the entire half of the map.
the ability to put up (and DEFEND) a second hive2 if the first one goes down/gets locked down
Again, Forlorn, your view of the game remains very limited to the traditional method of play. Silence in the open games is incredibly effective for multiangle rushes - you're not asking your skulks to go 1v1 against the marines. All that's required for effective use of alternate chambers is a change in play styles - it doesn't make the chambers any less effective.
Edit: with DCs, to defend the second hive, aliens can only come from one direction. Add movement, suddenly the marines have to watch for rushes from both directions. And you CANNOT deny the importance of distraction in battle - its what teamwork relies on. DC Fades (on a large map) will either get chopped up in the field or just be generally unable to be effective at such a long range. MC would be able to provide the entire team (key: GORGES TO HEAL FADES) to cover the second hive. With the gorges there, both the cooldown and distance effects are negated.
1. You neglect to cover sensory.
2. MCs are COMPLETELY viable and a much better strat on larger maps. DC aliens who are forced to defend a second 'building' hive on large maps can easily be cut off.
MC provides:
instant teleportation just by having one skulk biting the hive (map control)
silence provides excellent multi-angle rushing, as most marines depend on listening for the second and third skulks (exceptions being motion tracking and wall hackers)
the ability to get the hive across the map (instead of always getting adjacent) and still provide good coverage, in effect, giving you coverage of the entire half of the map.
the ability to put up (and DEFEND) a second hive2 if the first one goes down/gets locked down
Again, Forlorn, your view of the game remains very limited to the traditional method of play. Silence in the open games is incredibly effective for multiangle rushes - you're not asking your skulks to go 1v1 against the marines. All that's required for effective use of alternate chambers is a change in play styles - it doesn't make the chambers any less effective. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright..now..take what you just said, and take away everything that does not coincide with what Forlorn believes. Nothing left you say? Oh..snap. Thats what he just saw. I'de suggest quickly retreating to a post where hes not spending his attention to make any progress.
edit:
sorry for being snide. lets change useful to specific/constructive/arguable. Oh wait, can't do that either.
Forlorn is completely right.
I say that if there was no siege to threaten alien structures, more viable build strats would come into play...gorges could build a offensive staging area, basically a safe zone to heal attacking units - yes you can do it now, but if it is effective the comm will start sieges and and a few pings will turn the safe zone into a slaughter house.
This opinion of mine can be tested...orginise a friendly clan match whereby both clans agree not to use siege, no matter what. Then try a few build strats with the gorge without having to worry about siege, I believe there will be a big difference mid-game.
BTW: I wonder if 1.04 would still be as fun as the ye olde players remember, but with the current NS popularity?
From there, we can just say aliens are extremely constrained (whereas marines can have their cake and eat it too), but none of the 3 options is really the only viable one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only the fades?
They are 10x better than just a bunch of cloacked skulks or MC upgraded skulk/lerk/gorge cluster. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, but they won't win the Hive standoff by default either - 2 Fades have trouble killing 4/5 guys. Odds can be just as good with a Lerk and a bunch of MC Skulks, and/or one MC Fade.
Edit:
And snooger no, sieges aren't exactly your primary competitive tool to kill any OC, since they're expensive as all hell. Distracting fire with structures or just using SGs and meds is alot easier and faster. And primarily structure-dropping is the reason walls of lame aren't terribly effective.
That aside, fighting static defense isn't fun. I've always disliked that the game has it.
Sorry if people don't like to hear this, but it's the truth, pure and simple.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Questions for Forlorn:
Why do you need DCs to advance? Why do SCs work? Why DONT MCs work?
Why do aliens REQUIRE passive play? They don't. Aliens can play very aggressively and prevent marines from making major progress past a choke point. Again, this is the traditional get-two-nodes-and-sit-on-them strategy that is absolutely vunerable to one sensor scan. Aliens with silence don't have to walk to get into ambush position, and thus can arrange ambushes with (stealing arbitrary numbers) "10x" more speed and "10x" less chance of giving up their position.
Even if aliens don't use silence, how differently do the aliens play for the first 4 minutes of the game? MOST clanplay skulks DON'T upgrade in the first place. MOST clanplay teams DON'T put up the second hive before they have their fades anyways (to protect the hive!)
With MCs, the moment that second hive comes up and the aliens are able to travel between both of the hives, and as long as they have gorges healing, the fades have a far greater defensive capability AND greater mobility between hives. DCs only offer the defensive ability at the first hive, and do not offer the mobility to defend the second hive.
So you're saying the key to the MC strat is the second hive? When is the second hive NOT key to the DC strat?! MC simply offers a more versatile solution to 1 1/2-hive protection than DCs do. Because with DCs, fades are the only things that can truly defend that second hive. With MCs, you are able to involve 6 out of 6 members of your team, instead of 2 out of 6. And tell me that isn't an advantage.
edit:
In addition, your criticisms of MC aliens are terribly simplified and are limited to 1v1 situations. You fail to address the increased effectiveness of teamwork with the use of MCs.
The reason that DC's are the most popular chamber choice is because Defence allows the greatest benifits to head-on assults, while minimizing the risk of losing a valuable fade. Movement chambers first may allow aliens to transport to building hives or move silently but what good does that do when marines are seiging a hive? In such situations fades will need to take as much punishment as they can and because the hive is building that means they need to be able to heal on thier own, or have a TON of armor w/ carapace. Sensory doesn't tend to work for the same reason.
Granted a good team can make anything work, but this just seems to be the popular trend.
mc will give u the silence for quick ambushes/ cloaking works just as well
mc will let u teleport to another hive... thats really it.
sc gives u map control
sc sets up great ambushes/ remember skulks are not supposed to be moving...
dc overall helps in battle
i tend to agree with forlorn. mc doesn't really work in clan matches unless u plan to silence rush the rine base.
sc requires much more teamwork and coordination, but if done properly is much more effective than dc and mc. map control over the first few minutes of a game is great.
Is it just me or has NS lost its depth which would explain why so many people want 1.04 back.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='color:white'>The pitcher throws:</span> Step 1: Buy a nice heavy metal wrench.
<span style='color:white'>The batter swings:</span> Step 2: Remove it from it's packaging.
<span style='color:white'>The refree shouts:</span> Step 3: Proceed to <span style='color:white'>Striiiike ooooone!</span>
1.04 had 1 viable strategy for the marines: JP+HMG.
And 1 for the aliens: A 2nd hive (webs+fade+leap GG Game Over!).
As for 1.04 nostalgia, it's a load <span style='color:white'>Striiiiike twoooo!</span>
1.04 was a terrible build, i'll just have to assume people claiming 1.04 was more 'fun' than current NS versions, dint play it quite enuff. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think Nem is getting bored of how he locks topics..... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Apart from the method it was presented, I'd partially agree with Travis. The game has improved, drastically in some areas.
However :
1) We still effectively have a single build order for aliens. DC's still dominate.
2) 1.04 did somehow have the 'magic' playability that 2.x onwards seems to have missed.
What to do about these? No idea. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- Shockwave
-slower res accumulation
-everything was HELLA lot more expensive
-locking down hives was actually viable, somewhat.
-game was more methodically paced.
mc will give u the silence for quick ambushes/ cloaking works just as well
mc will let u teleport to another hive... thats really it.
sc gives u map control
sc sets up great ambushes/ remember skulks are not supposed to be moving...
dc overall helps in battle
i tend to agree with forlorn. mc doesn't really work in clan matches unless u plan to silence rush the rine base.
sc requires much more teamwork and coordination, but if done properly is much more effective than dc and mc. map control over the first few minutes of a game is great. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. cloaking works just as well
yes! its not DC is it?
2. teleport to another hive
that is IT? why the hell do you think phase gates are so powerful? it's not because they sparkle.
3. dc helps overall in battle
so do gorges healing fades in battle, except these gorges/fades can move all over the map instead of having to fall back to one spot (read: original hive) to heal.
LIMITED THINKING. Everyone's supposed use of mc strats are with gimmick tactics, like "silence rushing" the base.
The following situation is one of the most common situations in clanplay - 1 hive going up, fades just coming out, marines making an assault TOWARDS the second hive.
Regen won't save a fade from shotguns.
Cara won't allow a fade to heal in the field. And will probably only mean a very bare difference in saving a fade from shotguns.
In the end, Fades need to pick their battles.
If the gorges healing the fades in battle die, they lose a LOT of position, and will be able to be cut off by marines from their second hive.
It's true that breaking a siege is very difficult, but do DCs really make that much of a difference if:
Regen won't save a fade from a marine pack.
Cara won't save a fade from a marine pack.
Skulks will have to travel from their original hive and be, more or less, forced to throw themselves at the marines who are in PERFECT position to cut them off?
You're basically putting the entire siege breaking responsibility on two aliens (at best) who will be able to blink in for two swipes (at best). Why not use a chamber that allows the other 4 people on your team to be far more effective?
How are 2 DC fades better than 2 MC Fades and 4 Aliens? Because with DCs, those 4 aliens are nearly ineffectual when they have to defend that second hive. And basically, the DCs only benefit the fades (skulks don't upgrade) - but a strong group of marines basically negates the paltry regeneration benefit that DCs give.
And - which is a faster cooldown time?
1. DC fade who needs to travel to the hive1 (the only hive up) to heal and then come back to fight.
2. MC fade who can use MC at the second half-built hive, heal, and then be back in the same position (with a skulk using - gasp, teamwork - and biting the second hive).
Once again, you are taking the benefits of DCs on 1v1 situations and extrapolating them to apply to the entire team. As much as social complexity increases as members increase, SO DOES TEAMWORK AND ITS EFFECTIVENESS.
PLUS: you forget the fundamental aspect of teamwork - since a marine can ONLY shoot in one direction at any given time, why give the marines the benefit of only having to watch one direction? Being able to come from both sides keeps marines off-balance and subject to mistakes.
The fact that every alien plan relies on brute strength bashing and very inflexible and predictable strategies is the reason why it's becoming so much easier for marines to adapt their gameplay.
The reason that DC's are the most popular chamber choice is because Defence allows the greatest benifits to head-on assults, while minimizing the risk of losing a valuable fade. Movement chambers first may allow aliens to transport to building hives or move silently but what good does that do when marines are seiging a hive? In such situations fades will need to take as much punishment as they can and because the hive is building that means they need to be able to heal on thier own, or have a TON of armor w/ carapace. Sensory doesn't tend to work for the same reason.
Granted a good team can make anything work, but this just seems to be the popular trend. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly El Pollo, MCs allow you to get a flank on the marines, so you don't have to attack them "head-on".
Very few teams team use finesse, distraction, coordination, to win a game in favor of brute skill bashing.
nope, ALL good and semi-decent teams use this, the only teams that use brute skill bash tactics are new less experenced teams. As most exp players know using brute tactics as aliens does not work, aliens must time their attacks and pick their battles in order to be effective.
And vs good marines MC and SC benifits are very limited because the benifts they give are easily countered.
Silence is countered by motion tracking and marines checking behind them(which all good marines do by habit)
Adren, helps gorges heal more (easier to place DCs in a hidden map spot so the healer gorge could go skulk and actually do something productive since gorge +skulk rushes dont work anymore thanks to new skulk HP/AR) Helps lerks fly longer and fades blink longer (good because they'll need to run alot faster being they can't self regen)
Celerity helps aliens move faster (doesnt matter how fast you move bullets move even faster and a good marine will hit you with nearly every one of them) an alternative might be allowing aliens to better run at marines head on, but like you just said this "brute skill bashing" does not work.
Clocking, 2 Obs + scan = worthless upgrades
Focus, lvl 1 amor(the first upgrade for good teams) + welding = worthless upgrades
Scent of Fear, lets you seen rines, (works but so does paracite)
yes this is why nearly all the clanners have replyed that DC is the way to go.
Do marines check their backs WHILE they're firing? Marines only know that a marine is rushing from the back when they can hear the alien coming. I never said that silence skulks should operate alone. I said that they increase the effectiveness of an ambush by limiting the marine awareness of the situation.
Do DCs offer any advantage before fades? Basically, no, since neither skulks or gorges upgrade, both as a cause of needing to save for upgrades and the general ineffectiveness of DCs for lower lifeforms.
Celerity can mean the difference between making it around the corner and not. Adrenaline for lerks who DONT wander in front of shotguns allows them to be far more mobile and use their abilities more often than not.
There are few "hidden" spots (spots where a marine can't boost in) on a map. Having a static fallback spot introduces predictability and inflexibility to your strategy (why not have a marine waiting for the fade to come back to the DCs? instead, have your "healing station" able to move around with you and as you need and even BETWEEN hives).
And even if you can self-regen, you're still out of action for a very long time, because regen isn't exactly the fastest thing on earth.
And hobojoe: True, but I wanted to keep this topic somewhat well-informed.
El Pollo: Clue me in again on how groupthink = correct? Amelek was the only clanner who applied any sort of critical thought and analysis towards the game. Everyone else just sort of "plays" the game. Which was my original contention: that people would rather imitate what the top clans do than to truly attempt to alter gameplay and playstyle.
2 shotties can also easily take out a fade