<!--QuoteBegin-cocacolaa+May 28 2004, 03:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cocacolaa @ May 28 2004, 03:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> El Pollo: Clue me in again on how groupthink = correct? Amelek was the only clanner who applied any sort of critical thought and analysis towards the game. Everyone else just sort of "plays" the game. Which was my original contention: that people would rather imitate what the top clans do than to truly attempt to alter gameplay and playstyle. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> war isn't about being creative and artistic. it's about taking calculated risks, and doing things just right so you win. just WTH is wrong with learning from top clans? top clans are the ones that have the most experience with the game, and they come up with the most original strats as a result. newer clans learn from these more experienced players so they can play just as well.
and wt mother **** does amelek have to do with it? are you his girlfriend or some ****? what a freaking **** kisser
<!--QuoteBegin-That Annoying Kid+May 28 2004, 02:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (That Annoying Kid @ May 28 2004, 02:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-e.Nadagast+May 28 2004, 02:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ May 28 2004, 02:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> cocacolaa are you even in a clan? Have you played against good marines...? You absolutely need fades out. Period. Well aimed shotguns can just rip skulks a new one. 2 shotties can easily take out an entire team of skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 2 shotties can also easily take out a fade <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yes but 2 shotties would be hard pressed to take out 2 good fades and a skulk or two. Even though fades are good, aliens still need teamwork.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2004
There are other interesting possibilities, but DCs first is, and allways has been, the most efficient way to win alien rounds. As stated earlier, alien tactics revolve around Fades, and with good reason. MCs and SCs might give you an early advantage, but they will simply not cut it when the marines are going for your building hive with shotguns/HMGs and a PG. Fades are needed to take the brunt of the assault, as skulks, put simply, die too easily to high level weapons. And unless you get that hive up, you will never win the game.
I think that, by now, it has become obvious to most, that playing marines is quite a bit easier than playing alien on most maps. At least in high tier clan play. This is basically due to the fact that Fades die very easily to marines that know how to aim well. Unfortunately, there is no counter to this at the moment, as choosing a different first chamber will rip you apart even faster.
Variety in clanplay right now, is more down to pinpoint strategical elements like where to build the RTs, how many of them should we build, how many Fades should we use, where should we center our attention to defend/attack RTs, etc.
The real question we should be asking is wether or not this is really a bad thing. At least it ensures that the team with the most specialized skill and teamplay wins the match. It's not like sports and esports in general aren't repetitive...
<!--QuoteBegin-cocacolaa+May 28 2004, 03:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cocacolaa @ May 28 2004, 03:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> El Pollo: Clue me in again on how groupthink = correct? Amelek was the only clanner who applied any sort of critical thought and analysis towards the game. Everyone else just sort of "plays" the game. Which was my original contention: that people would rather imitate what the top clans do than to truly attempt to alter gameplay and playstyle.
and i'm sorry, but, this would have to be one of those rare topics that, unless you are intimately familiar with strong, organized teamplay, you are probably missing a lot of perspective required to make any valid statements. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay, what group is more intamely familiar with strong, orgranized teamplay than clanners?
And as far as people not putting the game through analasis, and only playing the game:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt that how you analyze something, by playing it? If you want to get good and test new theories in basebally, you play baseball if you want to test new things in NS you play ns.
Furthermore, I can tell you that ALL the topclans spend Countless hours testing new things on a daily basis and even more things whenever something new comes out. Why do experenced clanners know that DC is the best; beacause they tested it, tested it, tested it, then tested it somemore. Exigent, the current #1 american team used Movement and Sensory first ALOT last season, they were even able to win with it against their top rivals, but guess what? After all that they went back to DC's because they found them to be the most viable chamber for the first hive. This is what nearly every other clan has discoved as well, not just in the USA but in Europe as well. It's not just a coicidence.
Like it or not you are %100 wrong when you say that top clans do not attempt to alter their gameplay and playstyle. They alter it and refine it on a daily if not hourly basis.
I'm waiting for cocacalaa to come and kick all of our "traditional" donkey's with his super refined MC and SC strats with the ultimate coordination and skill he claims we need.
#findnsscrim
If you can't convince with words, speak with actions buddy
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Whilst we'd all love MC/SC to get an equal look in (I have some of the most fun games using SC in a 'skilled'/co-ordinated team) simply put, DC still reigns supreme.
Because in each version, aliens have become faster & harder to hit, but more fragile. The problem with this lies when you reach clan level games, where decent players *are* going to hit you regardless of how fast you go, and bunnyhop (oh God no, I mentioned it, first person to go on about it gets a Ka-SLAP from me) becomes a requirement, not an advantage.
This means skulks begin to only get kills in concerted multi skulk rushes, or if they get the drop on a marine. As at clan play, if you play defensively you <b>lose</b>, this largely rules out option 2.
On this, I am <b>completely</b> pro-MC/SC build orders. I'd love to see them become common, and gameplay & tactics from alien teams (thus affecting marine build orders as they try to counter) vary a lot more. But I can still accept that that largely isn't the case unless you're going for 'surprise' factor and hoping to catch the comm planning on DC off guard.
Basically, MC/SC will only have a chance of getting in there at all if the basic playstyle of the skulk is re-evaluated, to make it stand a picoseconds chance of getting a kill in a medium-going-on-short range confrontation with a W0/A0 LA/LMG Marine. Which is the range at which personal ability should come into play.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+May 29 2004, 12:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ May 29 2004, 12:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm waiting for cocacalaa to come and kick all of our "traditional" donkey's with his super refined MC and SC strats with the ultimate coordination and skill he claims we need.
#findnsscrim
If you can't convince with words, speak with actions buddy
There is no point in arguing this <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Match of the week, HLTV please.
<!--QuoteBegin-fanatic+May 29 2004, 01:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (fanatic @ May 29 2004, 01:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There are other interesting possibilities, but DCs first is, and allways has been, the most efficient way to win alien rounds. As stated earlier, alien tactics revolve around Fades, and with good reason. MCs and SCs might give you an early advantage, but they will simply not cut it when the marines are going for your building hive with shotguns/HMGs and a PG. Fades are needed to take the brunt of the assault, as skulks, put simply, die too easily to high level weapons. And unless you get that hive up, you will never win the game.
I think that, by now, it has become obvious to most, that playing marines is quite a bit easier than playing alien on most maps. At least in high tier clan play. This is basically due to the fact that Fades die very easily to marines that know how to aim well. Unfortunately, there is no counter to this at the moment, as choosing a different first chamber will rip you apart even faster.
Variety in clanplay right now, is more down to pinpoint strategical elements like where to build the RTs, how many of them should we build, how many Fades should we use, where should we center our attention to defend/attack RTs, etc.
The real question we should be asking is wether or not this is really a bad thing. At least it ensures that the team with the most specialized skill and teamplay wins the match. It's not like sports and esports in general aren't repetitive... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is excatly what i meant <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Shock - skulks are as fragile as they always were, and hitpoint totals are higher than they used to be. So it's not so much increased fragility as fixed hitboxes (mostly) and the new armor system, which neutered regen for everything but the onos (again).
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Which is kind of annoying, because at pub play, it's an even contest.
By clan level, where we see such a rise in LMG accuracy, battles between skulks and marines last sub 3 seconds. Which, well, isn't any fun, tbfh. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> There's no time for skillful movement or mano-a-xenoform combat, because it's over as soon as one of you realises the other is there.
Comments
war isn't about being creative and artistic. it's about taking calculated risks, and doing things just right so you win. just WTH is wrong with learning from top clans? top clans are the ones that have the most experience with the game, and they come up with the most original strats as a result. newer clans learn from these more experienced players so they can play just as well.
and wt mother **** does amelek have to do with it? are you his girlfriend or some ****? what a freaking **** kisser
2 shotties can also easily take out a fade <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes but 2 shotties would be hard pressed to take out 2 good fades and a skulk or two. Even though fades are good, aliens still need teamwork.
most efficient way to win alien rounds. As stated earlier, alien tactics revolve
around Fades, and with good reason. MCs and SCs might give you an early
advantage, but they will simply not cut it when the marines are going for your
building hive with shotguns/HMGs and a PG. Fades are needed to take the brunt of the
assault, as skulks, put simply, die too easily to high level weapons. And unless
you get that hive up, you will never win the game.
I think that, by now, it has become obvious to most, that playing marines is quite
a bit easier than playing alien on most maps. At least in high tier clan play. This is
basically due to the fact that Fades die very easily to marines that know how to
aim well. Unfortunately, there is no counter to this at the moment, as choosing a
different first chamber will rip you apart even faster.
Variety in clanplay right now, is more down to pinpoint strategical elements like
where to build the RTs, how many of them should we build, how many Fades
should we use, where should we center our attention to defend/attack RTs, etc.
The real question we should be asking is wether or not this is really a bad thing. At
least it ensures that the team with the most specialized skill and teamplay wins the
match. It's not like sports and esports in general aren't repetitive...
and i'm sorry, but, this would have to be one of those rare topics that, unless you are intimately familiar with strong, organized teamplay, you are probably missing a lot of perspective required to make any valid statements. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, what group is more intamely familiar with strong, orgranized teamplay than clanners?
And as far as people not putting the game through analasis, and only playing the game:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt that how you analyze something, by playing it? If you want to get good and test new theories in basebally, you play baseball if you want to test new things in NS you play ns.
Furthermore, I can tell you that ALL the topclans spend Countless hours testing new things on a daily basis and even more things whenever something new comes out. Why do experenced clanners know that DC is the best; beacause they tested it, tested it, tested it, then tested it somemore. Exigent, the current #1 american team used Movement and Sensory first ALOT last season, they were even able to win with it against their top rivals, but guess what? After all that they went back to DC's because they found them to be the most viable chamber for the first hive. This is what nearly every other clan has discoved as well, not just in the USA but in Europe as well. It's not just a coicidence.
Like it or not you are %100 wrong when you say that top clans do not attempt to alter their gameplay and playstyle. They alter it and refine it on a daily if not hourly basis.
#findnsscrim
If you can't convince with words, speak with actions buddy
There is no point in arguing this
Because in each version, aliens have become faster & harder to hit, but more fragile. The problem with this lies when you reach clan level games, where decent players *are* going to hit you regardless of how fast you go, and bunnyhop (oh God no, I mentioned it, first person to go on about it gets a Ka-SLAP from me) becomes a requirement, not an advantage.
This means skulks begin to only get kills in concerted multi skulk rushes, or if they get the drop on a marine. As at clan play, if you play defensively you <b>lose</b>, this largely rules out option 2.
On this, I am <b>completely</b> pro-MC/SC build orders. I'd love to see them become common, and gameplay & tactics from alien teams (thus affecting marine build orders as they try to counter) vary a lot more. But I can still accept that that largely isn't the case unless you're going for 'surprise' factor and hoping to catch the comm planning on DC off guard.
Basically, MC/SC will only have a chance of getting in there at all if the basic playstyle of the skulk is re-evaluated, to make it stand a picoseconds chance of getting a kill in a medium-going-on-short range confrontation with a W0/A0 LA/LMG Marine. Which is the range at which personal ability should come into play.
Currently, it doesn't.
Regards,
Shockwave
#findnsscrim
If you can't convince with words, speak with actions buddy
There is no point in arguing this <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Match of the week, HLTV please.
most efficient way to win alien rounds. As stated earlier, alien tactics revolve
around Fades, and with good reason. MCs and SCs might give you an early
advantage, but they will simply not cut it when the marines are going for your
building hive with shotguns/HMGs and a PG. Fades are needed to take the brunt of the
assault, as skulks, put simply, die too easily to high level weapons. And unless
you get that hive up, you will never win the game.
I think that, by now, it has become obvious to most, that playing marines is quite
a bit easier than playing alien on most maps. At least in high tier clan play. This is
basically due to the fact that Fades die very easily to marines that know how to
aim well. Unfortunately, there is no counter to this at the moment, as choosing a
different first chamber will rip you apart even faster.
Variety in clanplay right now, is more down to pinpoint strategical elements like
where to build the RTs, how many of them should we build, how many Fades
should we use, where should we center our attention to defend/attack RTs, etc.
The real question we should be asking is wether or not this is really a bad thing. At
least it ensures that the team with the most specialized skill and teamplay wins the
match. It's not like sports and esports in general aren't repetitive... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is excatly what i meant <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
By clan level, where we see such a rise in LMG accuracy, battles between skulks and marines last sub 3 seconds. Which, well, isn't any fun, tbfh. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> There's no time for skillful movement or mano-a-xenoform combat, because it's over as soon as one of you realises the other is there.
- Shockwave
NS is generally pretty monotonous strategy-wise though. =|