Yah, 3 hives should equal death to marines. I do find it scarier to play as a skulk then a marine because if your in open your as good as dead and some marine can ambush you...you run some where then #BANG# your dead. If you ambush a marine, he can atleast dough the bite and shoot at you.
First: 'OMG fade!!!!! run aaaahhhh!!!!!!!!', yeh them days were the best.
Second: I think its kinda obvious that the 3rd slots need a good beating with an anti-nerf stick <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Onos - Charge is ok but maybe if when you used gore whilst charging it didnt use any adrenaline cause your all hyped up. This would allow the onos to do more dammage and allow it a longer charge duration (so it can run away)
Lerk - Primal Scream - Increase distance / length, either one would do
Skulk - Xeno is ok imo
Fade - Bring back the 'Acid Rocket' not the water pistol that is attached to the fades shoulder right now
Gorge - Swap web and bile bomb around :/
Maybe this would work maybe it wouldnt nut hey your in Beta....
Most people who have hit up this thread are on the same page, but I noticed one or two that were not. Here's a post to bring them onto the same page:
The most important issue here is Kharaa philosophy. Lucky, you're missing a while huge part of the game here. There is no need for active teamwork on the part of the Kharaa. The Kharaa are brutal predators, extremely dangerous to deal with at any level. The simple reality is that this isn't true anymore. Aliens have been NERFED and marines have been beefed up.
Why? Why was it so important to bring the aliens down to a nicer level for everybody? I'd much rather work harder as a marine to kill an onos than to charge it with a few lvl 3 shottys. It's actually embarrassing to be an onos in beta 3. Note that the more human-like fade is now the ultimate kharaa unit.
A list of changes that is needed:
1.) Increase skulk speed slightly and give it 20 armor by default.
2.) Increase alien RT life by 750.
3.) Onos changes: Increase Onos hp by 150 and armor by 200. Increase gore attack damage by 45, 60 at hive three. Hive 2 is required to gestate to Onos. Onos requires 90 res to gestate.
4.) Alien armor increases bullet absorption by 10 % with each new hive.
5.) Lerk wings cause light damage to marines. Damage increases at each hive level. Lerk has spores/bite hive 1, umbra hive 2, spikes hive 3. Lerk is 15 % faster by default.
6.) Gorge upgrade costs 5 res. I'll not touch on anything else gorge related; better threads exist on this subject already.
7.) Hive under attack causes 25 % quicker gestate time.
8.) Remove knockback "bug" (marine knocked back 10 feet).
An individual Kharaa unit needs to be a challenge to eliminate. I want to feel the fear again.
Sounds good, I really liked the increase spawn time when hive is under attack. It would help the spawn camping when a group of marines secure an active hive. I think they should bring back that if a movement chamber is built under a hive, the spawn rate is increased.
I was thinking, that since Fades are now THE alien to stand toe to toe with stock marines, that they should become the BASE alien, not skulk. Basically, when you spawn, you have a choice of becoming a fade or a skulk or spawn. Skulks are still useful as scouts, and as parasite shooters. Also, skulks could evolve into gorges, and lerks to help the team. Now of course, the fade would have to be changed a bit, as a roomful of blinking fades would massacre a squad of marines. Basically, I'd tone down their health and armor, maybe 150 health, and 100 ap. Since the fades are now the maine BASE alien unit, them dying more isn't such a big deal. And a roomful of fades would still be deadly.
For the onos, it needs serious beefing up, or maybe, just make is so the whole onos isn't a target. Make the head invincible (thick skull), but the back as it's target. I think that change alone would make onos more useful.
I know my fade idea is very radical, but the game is still in BETA, and just like from 1.04 to 2.0, NS must evolve to make the best gaming experinece possible.
<!--QuoteBegin-illuminex+May 23 2004, 09:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (illuminex @ May 23 2004, 09:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most people who have hit up this thread are on the same page, but I noticed one or two that were not. Here's a post to bring them onto the same page:
The most important issue here is Kharaa philosophy. Lucky, you're missing a while huge part of the game here. There is no need for active teamwork on the part of the Kharaa. The Kharaa are brutal predators, extremely dangerous to deal with at any level. The simple reality is that this isn't true anymore. Aliens have been NERFED and marines have been beefed up.
Why? Why was it so important to bring the aliens down to a nicer level for everybody? I'd much rather work harder as a marine to kill an onos than to charge it with a few lvl 3 shottys. It's actually embarrassing to be an onos in beta 3. Note that the more human-like fade is now the ultimate kharaa unit.
A list of changes that is needed:
1.) Increase skulk speed slightly and give it 20 armor by default.
2.) Increase alien RT life by 750.
3.) Onos changes: Increase Onos hp by 150 and armor by 200. Increase gore attack damage by 45, 60 at hive three. Hive 2 is required to gestate to Onos. Onos requires 90 res to gestate.
4.) Alien armor increases bullet absorption by 10 % with each new hive.
5.) Lerk wings cause light damage to marines. Damage increases at each hive level. Lerk has spores/bite hive 1, umbra hive 2, spikes hive 3. Lerk is 15 % faster by default.
6.) Gorge upgrade costs 5 res. I'll not touch on anything else gorge related; better threads exist on this subject already.
7.) Hive under attack causes 25 % quicker gestate time.
8.) Remove knockback "bug" (marine knocked back 10 feet).
An individual Kharaa unit needs to be a challenge to eliminate. I want to feel the fear again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure about being on the same page as, I'm pretty sure this wasn't another one of those "[whine]I want an invulnerable onos tank[/whine]" threads. But you're definitely in the wrong version, and year - all that you have to do to feel the nostalgia (albeit not fear, as marines will own aliens) is load 1.04. And there you have onos tank. Of course, you'll never get to use it, by hey - it's a tank. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo--> It's scary. And it's impossible to get with jp/hmgs ruling the game at hive 2 at the latest.
Last I checked, it was CS that promoted the single player over the team - NS was just the opposite promoting teamwork over any soloing, and it's been moving in that direction since early 1.x. You can only expect the progress to continue moving in the same direction - not reverse. One more thing - your suggestions are a missile blast backwards when it comes to balance - if this is ever applied, you can rename marines to "losers" and aliens to "victors" at the same time. And you still won't feel any fear - just a lot of disappointment and frustration.
The only reason onos was "scary" in 1.x, is because it was so rare, almost no one really got to fight one. Now that they are a regular sight, no one will fear it ever again - everyone simply has had enough practice with killing them, so they are too common. And I like it that way personally.
The reason why people say 1.0 was atmospheric is because thats when everyone started playing. Everybody's first few games will give them the impression that they are a space marine trying to topple an unfathomable alien threat. However, there were also many un-atmospheric elements in 1.04, namely JP/HMGs. Yet people don't seem to remember these for some reason when considering atmosphere.
So my point is that most people seemed to like 1.04 not because it was atmospheric, but it was their first experience being exposed to NS. Nothing is more exciting that playing a game for the first time, and that's what we choose to remember as good, not the atmosphere in 1.04. If we make acid rocket and onos much stronger than they are now, the situation still wouldn't change much.
Atmosphere wears off in all games. We should not choose to focus on improving the atmosphere in NS, but rather improving it in other ways.
I played at least a month of 1.03, then 1.04, then stopped playing altogether, came back for 2.0, left again, and came back 3.3.
I don't necessarily want 1.04. I want to see marines work much harder at winning than they do now. Aliens should be winning more games. Gameplay balance is not as important as a marine team overcoming all odds to own the alien team. That's way more satisfying. Classic is boring as a marine. If you can shoot, and you have a half decent commander, the aliens are done. Sometimes you lose because you had a lot of noobies, or the commander didn't know what he was doing. Overall though, there's no satisfaction in winning classic games anymore.
For marines to win, it should take <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>ACTIVE TEAMWORK</span></span>. This is everybody listening to the com, moving in groups to secure common goals, etc. This is the type of teamwork you are referring to.
The kharaa should be utilizing <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:orange'>PASSIVE TEAMWORK</span></span>. Because of the theoretical raw power of each species of Kharaa, they work best alone or in pairs. Think about it. If two Onos work together, they block one another. Same with fades. Same with any more than two skulks. To work as a team in the same way that marines do is detrimental to the kharaa. That doesn't mean that they cannot achieve a common goal; it does mean that they're designed to do it in very small groups or individually.
My problem with the current beta is that the marines are able to succeed in many cases using PASSIVE TEAMWORK, but everyone is forcing Kharaa to use ACTIVE TEAMWORK. In many player's eyes, it goes against what we feel about aliens. We feel that by default an individual is much more powerful than a marine. The aliens in popular culture work together alone or in pairs, while the marines always work together. Even so, the 'rines usually get annhillated. I've got friends who don't want to play NS because the marines have a high chance of winning. They want to play the game as a marine so that they can work their **** off, while overcoming intense odds, to win.
This is far beyond "the Onos should be a tank" threads. This is about the philosophy of both sides. My point is simply that the playing field has been leveled, and the elements that made the game previously enjoyable are fast disappearing because of it.
I would like to see the removal of electrification completely (omg flameable suggestion). I would also like to see an overall buff of the aliens, this could easily be done by reducing the amount of damage dealt by marine weaponry. Of course fade and onos hp and ap levels would have to be reduced a bit to compensate. To balance this I would propose that marine should only have to hold 3 or 4 RTs to get a good res income (i.e. increase the rate that marines obtain res from RTs). This way they would have to fight harder for RTs but the pay off for gaining one would be much greater than it is currently. Also it would be much harder to secure lone RTs against a couple of skulks (ala 1.0x). Currently electrification is only a toy to experienced commanders and a crutch to the less experienced, so I see no need for it at all.
I would also consider a reduction in the rate that aliens gain res from RTs to compensate for the greater amount of map control they would now have.
This would reintroduce the fear of kharaa units that was prevailent in 1.0x without hurting the marine's chances too much (as they would have to control less of the map). The need to control only a few RTs outside of your base would lead to more fights over choke points as you would prefer to have one of your few RTs withing striking distance of a hive or two in order to reduce the need for multiple bases. Of course this would require a fair amount of balancing but this is a beta after all.
Also, for once we should forget about combat for a little while and make classic a more enjoyable experience. The short-termers play combat, the long-termers play classic. I have seen combat become more enjoyable, but I have seen classic become more and more dull due to the balance changes that have been introduced to satisfy combat.
I believe combat as a medium is much more flexible that classic and therefore classic should be balanced first and then combat be made to suit the current state of classic. Currently I think it is being done in the opposite way.
In summary, I believe the aliens should be buffed in terms of combat with marine units and nerfed in terms of resources and that marines should be nerfed in terms of combat with kharaa units and buffed in terms of resources.
If you concentrate the battle of marines down to a few RTs won't the more condensed fire power of the marines outweigh any small nerf in their combatitive strength? Also, why should the marines and the aliens have to hold the same number of RTs, can't it be balanced without that being the case?
Odd - last time I played (yesterday) it was still active teamwork under centralized command for marines and passive teamwork, where everyone picks what to do according to their POV from minimap and hive sight on kharaa side. Which is what you seem to be talking about. So, what's wrong with the current versions then - it works just like you want it to?
And before this sinks into being another "I want to be able to solo 5 marines alone with them having no chance to survive, as I should since I'm an onos", let's once again remind ourself of one simple fact - <b>aliens win 2 games for every single marine victory on pubs right now</b>. Any sort of buff for aliens will not only make combat totally one-sided (for which, I personally don't care much) but it will also make games on pubs very boring - you'll have situation similar to 1.04, but with aliens dominating rather then marines. It won't be fun for anyone, except for those alien rambos (for which I care far, far less). Rest of the fanbase wants <b>more</b> teamplay - not less. And that means nerfing aliens even further, to force people to work even more tightly together.
Right now, everyone is slowly adapting to playing as a team more and more on kharaa side. Early on, kharaa were made very powerful to compensate for lack of teamplay skill on alien side, due to the lack of centralized commanding entity. However, the majority of NS' fanbase adapted, and now we see more and more alien assaults that are started by several players with different classes working together as a unit. And to keep up with this progress, kharaa are naturally getting more and more nerfed, to keep the game even. It was said before, and I'll say it again - player skill balance is far more important then fine-tuning of the game mehcanics. Game level must correspond to players' average skill level as well as top-tier level - or the game will be abandoned and die. And at this point, NS is headed in a direction of following and compensating for the increasing skill of both top and average players, and all the people that want the old powerful solo back are in for disappointment.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
There are two main problems with win/loss stats. First is that a number of marine losses are due to fubared games - mainly, noone or a very inexperienced commander.
The second problem is server size. Larger games makes it easier on the marines, while small servers makes the marine task almost impossible.
What I would like to see is stats which shows win/loss stats over team sizes and game duration.
Another interesting stat would be win/loss stats per commander id - I bet that most losses are due to inexperienced commanders, while good commanders have a 90% win rate.
<!--QuoteBegin-Lucky_+May 23 2004, 06:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lucky_ @ May 23 2004, 06:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>aliens win 2 games for every single marine victory on pubs right now</b>. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> what version of NS are you playing??!??
try to keep the thread on-topic and flame free guys. Just an advanced warning. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Lucky_+May 23 2004, 11:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lucky_ @ May 23 2004, 11:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but it will also make games on pubs very boring - you'll have situation similar to 1.04, but with aliens dominating rather then marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Did you play 1.04? Aliens dominated the game. It was only JPs that meant they won the majority of the time.
Also, you mention that you don't want to satisfy the aliens who want to take out 5 marines with ease. No-one suggested that at all.
Oddly enuf, I see marines winning to a ratio of 3:1!!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I agree with Supernorn, there is no real way to glean useful statistics from largely played online games. The sheer amount of factors involved (server size, player experience, map, commanding style, etc) all result in a completely different equation everytime a game of NS is played.
I play both classic and combat, and there is a clear balance in combat mode. However, combat mode has taught marines how to aim extremely well. If you can aim, you can kill almost all but the very best aliens. A marine that graduates from combat mode to classic is therefore far more experienced than the marines in previous versions. They have already encountered the Super version of all Kharaa in combat, and are used to fighting and killing them. They also learned to rambo well. Now, as they go into classic Natural Selection, they have all of these combat skills. And the poor paper skulks are left at a significant disadvantage. If they are found out before they can make the first move to attack, they're done for.
Because combat has improved the individual fighting qualities of the marine, what once was balanced has become gradually unbalanced.
The solution: keep aliens at their current levels in combat, but beef up critical aspects of classic aliens. You don't need to nerf marines or their weaponry. Just tweak alien levels up a notch or two, replace some of the slots for certain species, and watch how alien gameplay improves.
Last time we argued about this as a balance issue was around beta 3 times, and the multitude of logs from several big pubs posted back then indicated 2/1 ratio in favor of marines (you guys really should look up that thread - it was centered around pretty much the same issue - I simply don't have the time to look for it right now). Yes, aliens are afaik still winning with a bit smaller ratio, but it's still 3/2 or around that figure in favor of aliens afaik. Many people seemed to believe that marines won more as well back then too - so actual statistics turned the whole thread around <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> There is also a thread about co_ statistics on top of this forum right now for those that care about combat.
<!--QuoteBegin-illuminex+May 23 2004, 12:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (illuminex @ May 23 2004, 12:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now, as they go into classic Natural Selection, they have all of these combat skills. And the poor paper skulks are left at a significant disadvantage. If they are found out before they can make the first move to attack, they're done for. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Very true. And the flipside of that is that if a player starts out playing Combat, and gets used to the Super Skulk or otherwise beefier Kharaa lifeforms and playstyle in Combat, is going to get killed that much faster by attempting to play the same way in Classic.
I don't really care about CO. Combat gameplay is stupid, it's like a fragfest. Brainless ppl play them.
However, I do believe CO influenced ppl in rambo'ing. Since Combat and Classic is using about the same damage, armour, health point values, marines were forced to attack more than aliens. Therefore, I think CO was a big success but the consequences of CO is it introduces and encourages Rambos.
My suggestion is, we must segregate combat and classic as two different gameplays. In CO, aliens should be nerfed as they can have multiple upgrades of the same chamber.
However speaking about Classic, aliens should be stronger. Aliens should set fear in the eyes of the marines. Therefore, single skulk > single rambo marine. Don't argue about aliens not having teamwork. Like what illuminex said, aliens work under passive teamwork.
I donno about you guys but on the server I play, there's are several of these rambo dudes who just walk around killing paper skulks and taking down rts. At the same time, recaping their own rts alone. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What many of you seem to ingnore is the fact that combat kharaa are nerfed already - they lack any field chambers. In normal games kharaa typically have various types of upgrade chambers scattered all over the map in strategic locations, while in combat, the only structure they have is the hive. On the other side, most marine area boosts are based on commander action (packs, scanning) and are present in combat. As such, aliens are already weaker then they are in ns_. On the other hand, aliens are heavily reinforced by the map size - normally logistics become a problem without centralized control entity on big ns_ maps, while in small co_ maps not only do marine lack it as well, but aliens have easier time finding teammates to stick together with. Quite frankly I have to say that the combat as it is now is best by far imo, even though I used to hate it at first, just like most of us did. The new spawn system forces players to value their own life and hence plan their play strategically and tactically. It's no longer enough to just know how to aim and dodge - and this is what makes co_ much more like ns_ then any version before. As such, I've seen quite a refinement in squad tactics in ns_ as well, as people learn what they should and should not do in squads to maximize efficiency and survival ratio. It's one thing to have experience in combatting onos 2-3 times in entire 20 minute ns_ game, it's totally another to combat the same onos in various squads 10+ times within 5 minutes. Even the newest and slowest people learn after making that many mistakes, and that's what co_ was originally meant for - training course for tactics in ns_.
<!--QuoteBegin-Lucky_+May 24 2004, 02:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lucky_ @ May 24 2004, 02:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What many of you seem to ingnore is the fact that combat kharaa are nerfed already - they lack any field chambers. In normal games kharaa typically have various types of upgrade chambers scattered all over the map in strategic locations, while in combat, the only structure they have is the hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which server do you play in? Id like to have them "field chambers" again.
What I see in ns_ these days is that noone drops "field chambers". ALL def/mov/sen goes in the hive room and thats it. Not only that, the usual case is that only the minimal of 3 is dropped.
I said that in combat, aliens are at the perfect settings. It's balanced, especially as aliens learn to use technique more. It is in classic that aliens need to be tweaked up. The logistics of map size and the lack of any objectives beyond "kill marines" means that aliens are 100 % committed to one goal in combat. However, in classic aliens are committed to many goals. After all, only the commander has to worry about exactly what upgrades happen. The marines just do his bidding. It's not like that for the kharaa. There is no real hierarchy. You simply hope that a good gorge drops what you need, and if you are not committed to a higher lifeform, you place a hive, if possible.
In classic, once a skulk committs himself to a battle, there is little he can do to escape if he doesn't get the marine in two bites. The second that bite #3 comes around, the marine's odds of surviving are at least that of the skulk's, if not far more. No "healing stations" are going to help a dead skulk.
NolSinklerOn the ClorfJoin Date: 2004-02-15Member: 26560Members, Constellation
Changes Needed:
Skulk: Raise health to 70/20. Make leap go further again.
Gorge: Bile Bomb is gone for gorge. Babblers added again!!
Lerk: Raise health to 125/60, and have the armor go up by 20 with each level of carapace. Hive 0: Spikes: same as old spikes. Hive 1: bite: same as bite now. Hive 2: Umbra: same as umbra now. Hive 3: Spores: Does 25 damage/second, lasts for 5 seconds.
Fade: Only accessible at hive 2. 400/250 health. Blink = gone. Speed: 340 units/second. Can jump as far and fast as a skulk leap, for 10% energy and no damage. Attacks: Hive 0: Swipe: 90 damage. Same RoF. Hive 1: Metabolize: heals 30 health and 25% energy with each metabolize. Hive 2: Acid Rocket: Uses 15% energy, does 50 damage/rocket. RoF: 1/second. Hive 3: Bile Bomb: Does 200 damage to structures and 100 damage to marines.
Onos: Only accessible at hive 3. 1250/1800 health. Hive 0 attack: Gore: 100 damage, double damage to structures and does 150 damage to HA. Hive 1: Devour: Time taken is the same, also takes marine armor and restores onos armor. Hive 2: Stomp: Lasts 2 seconds again. Hive 3: Charge: Does 450 damage/second.
Some people need to learn that "changes I want to see" do not equal "changes needed". Not to mention that with nolsinkler's suggestion, aliens wouldn't stand a snowball chance in hell of winning. They'll simply never be able to secure the second hive with just the lerks, and end up getting owned by slowly powering up marines. Btw, if you really want to play a game like that, 1.04 is very similar to your "suggestion". So I would suggest playing that version rather then 3rd betas.
<!--QuoteBegin-Crono5788+May 15 2004, 12:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crono5788 @ May 15 2004, 12:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I say we put Healspray in slot 1, Bile Bomb in slot 2 (with a slight nerf), webs in slot 3, and Babblers in slot 4. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not a bad idea really. I mean, how many times have you needed to snipe a marine with spit? Heal spray closeup can be just as effective; and much more amusing, esp with Love Heart sprite.
Babblers are not comming back, and if they are, this is not the thread to discuss it. Besides, Bilebomb > Babblers, in all aspects bar amusement. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Good points made about webs. Though slot 2 is a bit early. Gorge needs bilebomb now; fades just go for kills in pubs. I suppose it would make elec more USEFUL though.
Yea, I totally agree about biling at slot 2. I see a lot of marines now not even electrifying their rts since it's so easy to recap that rt instead.
The only time I see comms electrifying their rts is when there's a phase gate near by so that pg doesn't get eaten by skulks. I do hope this is a bug that needs to be fixed.
I would also say, make gorging cheaper so that at the start of the game, a couple of gorges can build 2 OC at choking points at the start of the game. Remember, marines if they play their cards right. They can take alternative routes and not rambo OCs or rambo rts, skulks blah blah. NS maps are so flexible now anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin-kltower4+May 23 2004, 03:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kltower4 @ May 23 2004, 03:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't really care about CO. Combat gameplay is stupid, it's like a fragfest. Brainless ppl play them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Does anyone else see the irony in his statement?
This isnt about turning the game back to 1.04, this is about tuning the third hive weapons so that they are worth using again. The problem with them in 1.04 is that the enemies using them were very hard to kill. Now the Fades and Oni are considerably weaker, I think they should get their powerfull weapons back to compensate.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Amen i mean really the only 3rd hive abilitys that are any good are xeno web and primal thats it acid rocket sux and charge sux I say if aleins get 3 hives they need to win no matter what the <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> throw at the Aleins
Comments
I do find it scarier to play as a skulk then a marine because if your in open your as good as dead and some marine can ambush you...you run some where then #BANG# your dead. If you ambush a marine, he can atleast dough the bite and shoot at you.
Second: I think its kinda obvious that the 3rd slots need a good beating with an anti-nerf stick <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Onos - Charge is ok but maybe if when you used gore whilst charging it didnt use any adrenaline cause your all hyped up. This would allow the onos to do more dammage and allow it a longer charge duration (so it can run away)
Lerk - Primal Scream - Increase distance / length, either one would do
Skulk - Xeno is ok imo
Fade - Bring back the 'Acid Rocket' not the water pistol that is attached to the fades shoulder right now
Gorge - Swap web and bile bomb around :/
Maybe this would work maybe it wouldnt nut hey your in Beta....
The most important issue here is Kharaa philosophy. Lucky, you're missing a while huge part of the game here. There is no need for active teamwork on the part of the Kharaa. The Kharaa are brutal predators, extremely dangerous to deal with at any level. The simple reality is that this isn't true anymore. Aliens have been NERFED and marines have been beefed up.
Why? Why was it so important to bring the aliens down to a nicer level for everybody? I'd much rather work harder as a marine to kill an onos than to charge it with a few lvl 3 shottys. It's actually embarrassing to be an onos in beta 3. Note that the more human-like fade is now the ultimate kharaa unit.
A list of changes that is needed:
1.) Increase skulk speed slightly and give it 20 armor by default.
2.) Increase alien RT life by 750.
3.) Onos changes: Increase Onos hp by 150 and armor by 200. Increase gore attack damage by 45, 60 at hive three. Hive 2 is required to gestate to Onos. Onos requires 90 res to gestate.
4.) Alien armor increases bullet absorption by 10 % with each new hive.
5.) Lerk wings cause light damage to marines. Damage increases at each hive level. Lerk has spores/bite hive 1, umbra hive 2, spikes hive 3. Lerk is 15 % faster by default.
6.) Gorge upgrade costs 5 res. I'll not touch on anything else gorge related; better threads exist on this subject already.
7.) Hive under attack causes 25 % quicker gestate time.
8.) Remove knockback "bug" (marine knocked back 10 feet).
An individual Kharaa unit needs to be a challenge to eliminate. I want to feel the fear again.
I was thinking, that since Fades are now THE alien to stand toe to toe with stock marines, that they should become the BASE alien, not skulk. Basically, when you spawn, you have a choice of becoming a fade or a skulk or spawn. Skulks are still useful as scouts, and as parasite shooters. Also, skulks could evolve into gorges, and lerks to help the team. Now of course, the fade would have to be changed a bit, as a roomful of blinking fades would massacre a squad of marines. Basically, I'd tone down their health and armor, maybe 150 health, and 100 ap. Since the fades are now the maine BASE alien unit, them dying more isn't such a big deal. And a roomful of fades would still be deadly.
For the onos, it needs serious beefing up, or maybe, just make is so the whole onos isn't a target. Make the head invincible (thick skull), but the back as it's target. I think that change alone would make onos more useful.
I know my fade idea is very radical, but the game is still in BETA, and just like from 1.04 to 2.0, NS must evolve to make the best gaming experinece possible.
The most important issue here is Kharaa philosophy. Lucky, you're missing a while huge part of the game here. There is no need for active teamwork on the part of the Kharaa. The Kharaa are brutal predators, extremely dangerous to deal with at any level. The simple reality is that this isn't true anymore. Aliens have been NERFED and marines have been beefed up.
Why? Why was it so important to bring the aliens down to a nicer level for everybody? I'd much rather work harder as a marine to kill an onos than to charge it with a few lvl 3 shottys. It's actually embarrassing to be an onos in beta 3. Note that the more human-like fade is now the ultimate kharaa unit.
A list of changes that is needed:
1.) Increase skulk speed slightly and give it 20 armor by default.
2.) Increase alien RT life by 750.
3.) Onos changes: Increase Onos hp by 150 and armor by 200. Increase gore attack damage by 45, 60 at hive three. Hive 2 is required to gestate to Onos. Onos requires 90 res to gestate.
4.) Alien armor increases bullet absorption by 10 % with each new hive.
5.) Lerk wings cause light damage to marines. Damage increases at each hive level. Lerk has spores/bite hive 1, umbra hive 2, spikes hive 3. Lerk is 15 % faster by default.
6.) Gorge upgrade costs 5 res. I'll not touch on anything else gorge related; better threads exist on this subject already.
7.) Hive under attack causes 25 % quicker gestate time.
8.) Remove knockback "bug" (marine knocked back 10 feet).
An individual Kharaa unit needs to be a challenge to eliminate. I want to feel the fear again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure about being on the same page as, I'm pretty sure this wasn't another one of those "[whine]I want an invulnerable onos tank[/whine]" threads. But you're definitely in the wrong version, and year - all that you have to do to feel the nostalgia (albeit not fear, as marines will own aliens) is load 1.04. And there you have onos tank. Of course, you'll never get to use it, by hey - it's a tank. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo--> It's scary. And it's impossible to get with jp/hmgs ruling the game at hive 2 at the latest.
Last I checked, it was CS that promoted the single player over the team - NS was just the opposite promoting teamwork over any soloing, and it's been moving in that direction since early 1.x. You can only expect the progress to continue moving in the same direction - not reverse.
One more thing - your suggestions are a missile blast backwards when it comes to balance - if this is ever applied, you can rename marines to "losers" and aliens to "victors" at the same time. And you still won't feel any fear - just a lot of disappointment and frustration.
The only reason onos was "scary" in 1.x, is because it was so rare, almost no one really got to fight one. Now that they are a regular sight, no one will fear it ever again - everyone simply has had enough practice with killing them, so they are too common. And I like it that way personally.
So my point is that most people seemed to like 1.04 not because it was atmospheric, but it was their first experience being exposed to NS. Nothing is more exciting that playing a game for the first time, and that's what we choose to remember as good, not the atmosphere in 1.04. If we make acid rocket and onos much stronger than they are now, the situation still wouldn't change much.
Atmosphere wears off in all games. We should not choose to focus on improving the atmosphere in NS, but rather improving it in other ways.
I don't necessarily want 1.04. I want to see marines work much harder at winning than they do now. Aliens should be winning more games. Gameplay balance is not as important as a marine team overcoming all odds to own the alien team. That's way more satisfying. Classic is boring as a marine. If you can shoot, and you have a half decent commander, the aliens are done. Sometimes you lose because you had a lot of noobies, or the commander didn't know what he was doing. Overall though, there's no satisfaction in winning classic games anymore.
For marines to win, it should take <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>ACTIVE TEAMWORK</span></span>. This is everybody listening to the com, moving in groups to secure common goals, etc. This is the type of teamwork you are referring to.
The kharaa should be utilizing <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:orange'>PASSIVE TEAMWORK</span></span>. Because of the theoretical raw power of each species of Kharaa, they work best alone or in pairs. Think about it. If two Onos work together, they block one another. Same with fades. Same with any more than two skulks. To work as a team in the same way that marines do is detrimental to the kharaa. That doesn't mean that they cannot achieve a common goal; it does mean that they're designed to do it in very small groups or individually.
My problem with the current beta is that the marines are able to succeed in many cases using PASSIVE TEAMWORK, but everyone is forcing Kharaa to use ACTIVE TEAMWORK. In many player's eyes, it goes against what we feel about aliens. We feel that by default an individual is much more powerful than a marine. The aliens in popular culture work together alone or in pairs, while the marines always work together. Even so, the 'rines usually get annhillated. I've got friends who don't want to play NS because the marines have a high chance of winning. They want to play the game as a marine so that they can work their **** off, while overcoming intense odds, to win.
This is far beyond "the Onos should be a tank" threads. This is about the philosophy of both sides. My point is simply that the playing field has been leveled, and the elements that made the game previously enjoyable are fast disappearing because of it.
I would also consider a reduction in the rate that aliens gain res from RTs to compensate for the greater amount of map control they would now have.
This would reintroduce the fear of kharaa units that was prevailent in 1.0x without hurting the marine's chances too much (as they would have to control less of the map). The need to control only a few RTs outside of your base would lead to more fights over choke points as you would prefer to have one of your few RTs withing striking distance of a hive or two in order to reduce the need for multiple bases. Of course this would require a fair amount of balancing but this is a beta after all.
Also, for once we should forget about combat for a little while and make classic a more enjoyable experience. The short-termers play combat, the long-termers play classic. I have seen combat become more enjoyable, but I have seen classic become more and more dull due to the balance changes that have been introduced to satisfy combat.
I believe combat as a medium is much more flexible that classic and therefore classic should be balanced first and then combat be made to suit the current state of classic. Currently I think it is being done in the opposite way.
In summary, I believe the aliens should be buffed in terms of combat with marine units and nerfed in terms of resources and that marines should be nerfed in terms of combat with kharaa units and buffed in terms of resources.
If you concentrate the battle of marines down to a few RTs won't the more condensed fire power of the marines outweigh any small nerf in their combatitive strength? Also, why should the marines and the aliens have to hold the same number of RTs, can't it be balanced without that being the case?
And before this sinks into being another "I want to be able to solo 5 marines alone with them having no chance to survive, as I should since I'm an onos", let's once again remind ourself of one simple fact - <b>aliens win 2 games for every single marine victory on pubs right now</b>. Any sort of buff for aliens will not only make combat totally one-sided (for which, I personally don't care much) but it will also make games on pubs very boring - you'll have situation similar to 1.04, but with aliens dominating rather then marines. It won't be fun for anyone, except for those alien rambos (for which I care far, far less). Rest of the fanbase wants <b>more</b> teamplay - not less. And that means nerfing aliens even further, to force people to work even more tightly together.
Right now, everyone is slowly adapting to playing as a team more and more on kharaa side. Early on, kharaa were made very powerful to compensate for lack of teamplay skill on alien side, due to the lack of centralized commanding entity. However, the majority of NS' fanbase adapted, and now we see more and more alien assaults that are started by several players with different classes working together as a unit. And to keep up with this progress, kharaa are naturally getting more and more nerfed, to keep the game even. It was said before, and I'll say it again - player skill balance is far more important then fine-tuning of the game mehcanics. Game level must correspond to players' average skill level as well as top-tier level - or the game will be abandoned and die. And at this point, NS is headed in a direction of following and compensating for the increasing skill of both top and average players, and all the people that want the old powerful solo back are in for disappointment.
The second problem is server size. Larger games makes it easier on the marines, while small servers makes the marine task almost impossible.
What I would like to see is stats which shows win/loss stats over team sizes and game duration.
Another interesting stat would be win/loss stats per commander id - I bet that most losses are due to inexperienced commanders, while good commanders have a 90% win rate.
what version of NS are you playing??!??
Did you play 1.04? Aliens dominated the game. It was only JPs that meant they won the majority of the time.
Also, you mention that you don't want to satisfy the aliens who want to take out 5 marines with ease. No-one suggested that at all.
I play both classic and combat, and there is a clear balance in combat mode. However, combat mode has taught marines how to aim extremely well. If you can aim, you can kill almost all but the very best aliens. A marine that graduates from combat mode to classic is therefore far more experienced than the marines in previous versions. They have already encountered the Super version of all Kharaa in combat, and are used to fighting and killing them. They also learned to rambo well. Now, as they go into classic Natural Selection, they have all of these combat skills. And the poor paper skulks are left at a significant disadvantage. If they are found out before they can make the first move to attack, they're done for.
Because combat has improved the individual fighting qualities of the marine, what once was balanced has become gradually unbalanced.
The solution: keep aliens at their current levels in combat, but beef up critical aspects of classic aliens. You don't need to nerf marines or their weaponry. Just tweak alien levels up a notch or two, replace some of the slots for certain species, and watch how alien gameplay improves.
There is also a thread about co_ statistics on top of this forum right now for those that care about combat.
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Very true. And the flipside of that is that if a player starts out playing Combat, and gets used to the Super Skulk or otherwise beefier Kharaa lifeforms and playstyle in Combat, is going to get killed that much faster by attempting to play the same way in Classic.
However, I do believe CO influenced ppl in rambo'ing. Since Combat and Classic is using about the same damage, armour, health point values, marines were forced to attack more than aliens. Therefore, I think CO was a big success but the consequences of CO is it introduces and encourages Rambos.
My suggestion is, we must segregate combat and classic as two different gameplays. In CO, aliens should be nerfed as they can have multiple upgrades of the same chamber.
However speaking about Classic, aliens should be stronger. Aliens should set fear in the eyes of the marines. Therefore, single skulk > single rambo marine. Don't argue about aliens not having teamwork. Like what illuminex said, aliens work under passive teamwork.
I donno about you guys but on the server I play, there's are several of these rambo dudes who just walk around killing paper skulks and taking down rts. At the same time, recaping their own rts alone. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
On the other hand, aliens are heavily reinforced by the map size - normally logistics become a problem without centralized control entity on big ns_ maps, while in small co_ maps not only do marine lack it as well, but aliens have easier time finding teammates to stick together with.
Quite frankly I have to say that the combat as it is now is best by far imo, even though I used to hate it at first, just like most of us did. The new spawn system forces players to value their own life and hence plan their play strategically and tactically. It's no longer enough to just know how to aim and dodge - and this is what makes co_ much more like ns_ then any version before. As such, I've seen quite a refinement in squad tactics in ns_ as well, as people learn what they should and should not do in squads to maximize efficiency and survival ratio. It's one thing to have experience in combatting onos 2-3 times in entire 20 minute ns_ game, it's totally another to combat the same onos in various squads 10+ times within 5 minutes. Even the newest and slowest people learn after making that many mistakes, and that's what co_ was originally meant for - training course for tactics in ns_.
Which server do you play in? Id like to have them "field chambers" again.
What I see in ns_ these days is that noone drops "field chambers". ALL def/mov/sen goes in the hive room and thats it. Not only that, the usual case is that only the minimal of 3 is dropped.
In classic, once a skulk committs himself to a battle, there is little he can do to escape if he doesn't get the marine in two bites. The second that bite #3 comes around, the marine's odds of surviving are at least that of the skulk's, if not far more. No "healing stations" are going to help a dead skulk.
Skulk: Raise health to 70/20. Make leap go further again.
Gorge: Bile Bomb is gone for gorge. Babblers added again!!
Lerk: Raise health to 125/60, and have the armor go up by 20 with each level of carapace. Hive 0: Spikes: same as old spikes. Hive 1: bite: same as bite now. Hive 2: Umbra: same as umbra now. Hive 3: Spores: Does 25 damage/second, lasts for 5 seconds.
Fade: Only accessible at hive 2. 400/250 health. Blink = gone. Speed: 340 units/second. Can jump as far and fast as a skulk leap, for 10% energy and no damage. Attacks: Hive 0: Swipe: 90 damage. Same RoF. Hive 1: Metabolize: heals 30 health and 25% energy with each metabolize. Hive 2: Acid Rocket: Uses 15% energy, does 50 damage/rocket. RoF: 1/second. Hive 3: Bile Bomb: Does 200 damage to structures and 100 damage to marines.
Onos: Only accessible at hive 3. 1250/1800 health. Hive 0 attack: Gore: 100 damage, double damage to structures and does 150 damage to HA. Hive 1: Devour: Time taken is the same, also takes marine armor and restores onos armor. Hive 2: Stomp: Lasts 2 seconds again. Hive 3: Charge: Does 450 damage/second.
Btw, if you really want to play a game like that, 1.04 is very similar to your "suggestion". So I would suggest playing that version rather then 3rd betas.
It's not a bad idea really. I mean, how many times have you needed to snipe a marine with spit?
Heal spray closeup can be just as effective; and much more amusing, esp with Love Heart sprite.
Babblers are not comming back, and if they are, this is not the thread to discuss it.
Besides, Bilebomb > Babblers, in all aspects bar amusement. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Good points made about webs. Though slot 2 is a bit early. Gorge needs bilebomb now; fades just go for kills in pubs. I suppose it would make elec more USEFUL though.
The only time I see comms electrifying their rts is when there's a phase gate near by so that pg doesn't get eaten by skulks. I do hope this is a bug that needs to be fixed.
I would also say, make gorging cheaper so that at the start of the game, a couple of gorges can build 2 OC at choking points at the start of the game. Remember, marines if they play their cards right. They can take alternative routes and not rambo OCs or rambo rts, skulks blah blah. NS maps are so flexible now anyway.
Does anyone else see the irony in his statement?
This isnt about turning the game back to 1.04, this is about tuning the third hive weapons so that they are worth using again. The problem with them in 1.04 is that the enemies using them were very hard to kill. Now the Fades and Oni are considerably weaker, I think they should get their powerfull weapons back to compensate.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen i mean really the only 3rd hive abilitys that are any good are xeno web and primal thats it acid rocket sux and charge sux I say if aleins get 3 hives they need to win no matter what the <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> throw at the Aleins