The Fear Factor, And Hive Three Weapons
Supernorn
Best. Picture. Ever. Made. Ever. Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7608Members, Constellation
Best. Picture. Ever. Made. Ever. Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7608Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">something that needs changing?</div> Dont get me wrong. I've been Playing NS since ye olde days. And I'm still loving it. But there are some aspects of the game That I, along with many people am sorely missing.
I want to take you back. To 1.04. Arguably one of the more unbalanced, yet ironically Fun versions of NS to date.
Remember 1.04? Remember people Running from Fades and Oni while screaming down the voice comm to be saved?
Its called the fear factor. And it was a huge part of what made NS so atmospheric.
Thats missing from NS now. and this is something we should all be sad about.
The only problems with 1.04 at the time were the fact that Fades could easily win the game without aliens ever needing a third hive. (thanks to the awesome acid rocket)
And then it got rather unplayable due to the constant Jetpack rushes that everyone insisted on doing every freaking round.
So these things were fixed and unsuprisingly the fades acid rocket took a royal beating with the almightly nerf stick.
Now, lets go back to 3.0, The current version. Its still a beta, and thats why I'm making these points. There is still lots of time to make suggestions, and to improve. lets get down to Classic NS:
Due to the fixed hitboxes. Fade and Oni are no longer scary. You see them easily die every game to an average wave of HMG and Shotgun rounds. NS has lost its scare factor and its atmosphere because these guys are far too easy to take out.
Now that we have a totally new Hive system, That allows The Onos to appear regardless of the number of hives, I say we actually make the third hive weapons worth using. These weapons should be the ones used to finish off a losing Marine team. At the moment they arent worth using because frankly, they arent very good.
Acid rocket has been battered to death with the nerf stick.
Charge is nowhere near as effective as it was in 1.04
Webs are laughably useless, due to them being in the wrong slot. There isnt much need of protecting with webs by the time you get a third hive up. Its the stage of the game where the Aliens finish the Marine base off. There really isnt much Defending left to do when an Offensive attack is taking place.
I hate it when people start whining about things and then dont offer any solutions to the problem. So I'm going to have a go at it, and you can to if you wish.
Bring the Acid Rocket and Charge to 1.04 standards.
swap web with Bilebomb in the weapon slots. This might not work due to Bilebomb being usefull for taking out res nodes and structures early on in the game, but you could always invest in a Fade, and I'm against this battle gorge stuff. Its a builder class, not a warrior.
Ok. I'm done.
What I'm interested in is you're opinions on this subject, and if you have any ideas, feel free to post them.
I want to take you back. To 1.04. Arguably one of the more unbalanced, yet ironically Fun versions of NS to date.
Remember 1.04? Remember people Running from Fades and Oni while screaming down the voice comm to be saved?
Its called the fear factor. And it was a huge part of what made NS so atmospheric.
Thats missing from NS now. and this is something we should all be sad about.
The only problems with 1.04 at the time were the fact that Fades could easily win the game without aliens ever needing a third hive. (thanks to the awesome acid rocket)
And then it got rather unplayable due to the constant Jetpack rushes that everyone insisted on doing every freaking round.
So these things were fixed and unsuprisingly the fades acid rocket took a royal beating with the almightly nerf stick.
Now, lets go back to 3.0, The current version. Its still a beta, and thats why I'm making these points. There is still lots of time to make suggestions, and to improve. lets get down to Classic NS:
Due to the fixed hitboxes. Fade and Oni are no longer scary. You see them easily die every game to an average wave of HMG and Shotgun rounds. NS has lost its scare factor and its atmosphere because these guys are far too easy to take out.
Now that we have a totally new Hive system, That allows The Onos to appear regardless of the number of hives, I say we actually make the third hive weapons worth using. These weapons should be the ones used to finish off a losing Marine team. At the moment they arent worth using because frankly, they arent very good.
Acid rocket has been battered to death with the nerf stick.
Charge is nowhere near as effective as it was in 1.04
Webs are laughably useless, due to them being in the wrong slot. There isnt much need of protecting with webs by the time you get a third hive up. Its the stage of the game where the Aliens finish the Marine base off. There really isnt much Defending left to do when an Offensive attack is taking place.
I hate it when people start whining about things and then dont offer any solutions to the problem. So I'm going to have a go at it, and you can to if you wish.
Bring the Acid Rocket and Charge to 1.04 standards.
swap web with Bilebomb in the weapon slots. This might not work due to Bilebomb being usefull for taking out res nodes and structures early on in the game, but you could always invest in a Fade, and I'm against this battle gorge stuff. Its a builder class, not a warrior.
Ok. I'm done.
What I'm interested in is you're opinions on this subject, and if you have any ideas, feel free to post them.
Comments
Bring back locked lifeforms at hives, old res system and change all hp/armor/res/damage values for every fricking gun. :/
1.04 was not balanced. 1.04 seems fun because it was "new" and "excting" and the first version of anything you played always seems better.
1.04 was not balanced. 1.04 seems fun because it was "new" and "excting" and the first version of anything you played always seems better. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
notice he didnt say anything about bringing back the horrors of jp/hmg tech rushes?
and by the way, 1.04 is far from the first version of NS. First version of NS I knew was the one where marines swam in res, and pretty much pwned the aliens no matter what strat (if a strategy was used at all <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
Besides that, since we're now excluding jp/hmgs we have no idea how the game balance will be. Hitboxes were fixed for onos and fade, and since about 80% of the gameplay was jp/hmg before aliens get unstoppable fades and oni, we can't possible guess about how balanced or fun 1.04 will be now.
Besides that, since we're now excluding jp/hmgs we have no idea how the game balance will be. Hitboxes were fixed for onos and fade, and since about 80% of the gameplay was jp/hmg before aliens get unstoppable fades and oni, we can't possible guess about how balanced or fun 1.04 will be now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
well, for many of us, 1.0x - 1.03 were actually the first time we touched NS. Seeing your member number is a wee bit smaller than mine, Id guess its true for you too.
I dont think jp/hmg was integral to the 1.04 game. Perhaps we should look a bit further back before jp/hmg dominance. Im not sure if you remember or not, but there was a time in 1.0x (surely after 1.02, but before 2.0x's) where jetpacks were not used, and men fought with HA's.
Anywho, hes saying to beef 3rd hive weapons (AR, charge, web). By the time the aliens hit three hives, does it really matter if its balanced or not? Dont think Ive ever seen aliens lose after getting third hive. Implementing what he said would be good, if only to break the marine base when the game is clearly over.
This isnt about turning the game back to 1.04, this is about tuning the third hive weapons so that they are worth using again. The problem with them in 1.04 is that the enemies using them were very hard to kill. Now the Fades and Oni are considerably weaker, I think they should get their powerfull weapons back to compensate.
I think another big thing thats gotten us into this rut with onos is stomp. I don't remember paralyze, so help me out guys if I'm wrong. But I think with that, you could give onos greater amounts of hp, because the marines can still shoot, even though they can't run.
Now lets look at onos with and without stomp. With stomp, if he had any more hp, he'd be invincible. Without stomp right now, onos go down easily - as long as you're not stunned, space cows are no problem.
So I say we take out stomp. And give onos more hp. Seeing how it already is at 700-600 (or is it 600-700 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> ), I say make the armor absorb more damage.
What to put in its place? I personally hate the whole paralyzing/stunning idea. Its no fun as a marine, and its because of it that onos has such low hp. I think it would be nice to add some kind of trampling, and knocking marines to the ground. That would require a lot of work by the devs though.
I honestly think it would be better to switch the supposed roles of the onos and fade. Onos is supposed to be base buster, fade the blinking ninja harassment. I think fade's acid rockets should become an anti building weapon, while onos gets a boost so it can fight marines.
I personally never go onos, you die to easy. I personally think fades are fine for their role - the hit and runner. But the aliens need a front line warrior, which is what onos is supposed to be.
The fear factor actually was what brought me into playing NS,
But now that NS is being played at CAL and all, it has to be balanced,
I'm not sure what can be done, but Locked life-forms at hives was a good idea,
especially when they were _Really_ worth the res they took.
So i say Power up 3rd hive abilities as norn said, or lock life forms.
I agree, the onos is basically wow, I can eat someone or stun a train for my teammate's to kill.
The only thing the onos dominates is the shadows it runs to after eating someone.
The fade is perfect besides AR, make it useful or just remove it for another ability.
Lerk, I still perfere spikes over bite as the lerk is not exactly melee matieral for the res it costs, but it's fine otherwise.
Gorges never can have fun or run from a marine, being able to web at hive 2 is a good idea but the very precious bile bomb at 3rd hive? Can't be done, the gorge just plain sucks and is boring to play as. . . no one in real life would want to be a gorge instead of; a skulk, lerk, fade, onos.
o Darker Maps - I don't know about anybody else, but the current maps feel like I'm playing on the USS enterprise or some other Starfleet equivalent. They're too fricking bright and sterile. The only ones which aren't really like that are bast and nancy (but well, bast is getting hit with the glowstix for the next patch, from what I hear)
o More entities - lights which could be shot out, broken lights, ambient sounds, etc. These were all more prevalent. But because the entity limits have been put into place, we've lost all these things.
o Laser Mines - Oh, these were so great back then. Before anybody says "OMG U NUB TEHY CAN SEE THEM" that was the POINT! Deterrents work JUST as well, if not better than actually having to remove anything you don't want.
o No chamber area limits - This is a big one. Having areas which are FULL of alien built infestations (OCs, DCs, etc.) was so cool. It REALLY made you feel like the "infection" of the ship was spreading.
o Scary lifeforms - As stated before, you ran from fades and FLED from onos with your tail between your legs at full sprint. You FEARED them, as you SHOULD do (I mean, they ARE creatures made for the sole purpose of removing a threat) The fear factor made NS great. Either tie them into hives again (and remove electricity as a result so marine RTs aren't totally safe until hive 2), or make them cost more res and beef them appropriately (well, the fade already has SOME fear factor to it, but only because when it's a really good fade, it's damn near impossible to kill him)
There's more...I'll probably edit this post when I remember them.
o Laser Mines - Oh, these were so great back then. Before anybody says "OMG U NUB TEHY CAN SEE THEM" that was the POINT! Deterrents work JUST as well, if not better than actually having to remove anything you don't want. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm, weren't these some of the main reasons the servers would crash more often in 1.x?
(note: I have never played 1.x, only heard about it from the forums :/)
o Laser Mines - Oh, these were so great back then. Before anybody says "OMG U NUB TEHY CAN SEE THEM" that was the POINT! Deterrents work JUST as well, if not better than actually having to remove anything you don't want. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm, weren't these some of the main reasons the servers would crash more often in 1.x?
(note: I have never played 1.x, only heard about it from the forums :/) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes they were, but they were factors which made the game more immersive.
You can download custom mine models with the lasers attatched if you're feeling like some nostaligia in NS 3.0 <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You know things are getting out of hand when a lone marine decides to chase after an onos as if it were a gorge.
But, it's easier to play as a marine, as it's so standard to all fps games, than the Kharaa, so the game might not be so unbalanced after all if the aliens are stronger.
Bring back locked lifeforms at hives, old res system and change all hp/armor/res/damage values for every fricking gun. :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what <i>s</i>he said
I totally agree with the recent movement toward throwing balance out the window for the sake of fun... making aliens more powerful so that a marine win is harder to come by.
I honestly do hate running around the map and killing all the rts and owning up to 3 skulks at once that bother trying to "save" the rt (thx for the rfk) that they know will die anyway. BUT I KNOW this is the best way to win! Please, I want to be forced into cooperating with my team and I want to fear the alieums again.
Maybe something as simple as smaller lmg and pistol clips would do the trick on those rambos! Nah, that wouldn't work, that would hurt the marines who can't aim too well. Or maybe try a jump-knockback fix or knockback removal. I'm just thinking of myself and what would nerf me well. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> OOH oh! What about 1 hive webs! lol contradicting myself earlier in the post but maybe make them cost more adrenaline or nerf them somewhat so that a gorge and skulk could together stop a lone marine no matter his aim/skills!
(and this way the gorge doesn't have to have good aim with his spit either... most of the people who gorge are the more casual players anyway and to expect them to rely on their aim with a slow projectile is not so good)
Well, whatever the change, I would like to see one that hurts those no-fear rambos. I, too, am getting bored of the way the game is won for marines.
Skulks are paper now. Bring back the 1.04 days where skulks could own individual marines (not the other way round).
Gorges need to reshuffle their abilities. Webs are good at stopping rambo marines and boosting static defences (so you don't lose a 10 res OC to 2 LMG clips), but aren't very useful against well-equipped marines going in groups. At hive 3, the only place where marines are likely to survive for 5 seconds or longer is their base. What is the use of webs at hive 3? I'd say switch bilebomb with webs while restoring bilebomb to 1.04 standard, and giving fades 2X damage against structures to compensate.
After webs are a counter against jetpackers (yes, they are), the costs of JPs should be lowered and the fuel of the JP.
JP costs at 5 - 10 res, fuel lowered down to 1/3.
I say, drop spit, move healspray down to slot one with the range extended a bit.
Nerf bilebomb and move it to slot two.
Slight web-nerf and move it to slot three.
In slot four, give gorges the primal Moo.
(This also lets you give lerks their spikes back somewhere. I almost think a beefed spike at slot four might be appropriate)
I say, drop spit, move healspray down to slot one with the range extended a bit.
Nerf bilebomb and move it to slot two.
Slight web-nerf and move it to slot three.
In slot four, give gorges the primal Moo.
(This also lets you give lerks their spikes back somewhere. I almost think a beefed spike at slot four might be appropriate) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
good idea.
Onos third hive abilility charge should be beefed up with little stun ability.
When charging onos hits something like marines or building little "stun" period would occur. Turrets or turret factories would stop little while when hit (maybe for 1 s and not continuos effect so that you have to move away from stucture and charge it again). That would help alien team to move in and finish marines.
And then charge abilitys would be more "realistic" (this is game anyway). Nowdays when x ton onos hits marine he just keep shooting back without worriers.
I had more fun with 1.04, despite whatever balance issues it had. Laser mines, weld rushes, babblers, alien resource system, map list/rotation, locked-hive alien classes, etc... all made for a great game.
Marines are ridiculously easy to play now, and are nearly unstoppable with a good commander (I'm saying this from a MARINE perspective). This is from my experience on public servers with a 20-25 player count and decently balanced teams (good mix of experienced and inexperienced players).
I used to hate combat, now I love it, because a good game of standard NS is few and far between.
Adios.
I never said "remove electricity"