Knockback In Beta 4

Nemesis_Zero · May 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">Poll requested by Marine01</div> Seeing that the discussion continues, Marine asked me to create a follow-up to the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=51177&st=75' target='_blank'>last poll</a> on the topic. Feel free to add comments below.

<b>This poll does <i>not</i> deal with bug #4 (the 'flying' marine), but the 'normal', 30 unit kind of knockback.</b>

juice · May 2004

You should probably clarify whether you are referring to the BUG whereby marines can fly through the air due to knockback (which is being fixed) or allll knockback, whether on the ground or in the air.

I think many votes for removal of knockback will be referencing the fly-through-the-air knockback.

CEldin · May 2004

What is the difference for those who are not 'in the loop' as they say.

GWAR · May 2004

If a skulk, that only takes 9 bullets to kill is smart/good/fast enough to get close enough to bite a vanilla marine the skulk should not lose that distance gained!

Also, eliminating knockback will also stop the onos from knocking around skulks while attacking structures.

juice · May 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stung256 @ May 23 2004, 06:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> What is the difference for those who are not 'in the loop' as they say.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
If a marine jumps at the right time and a skulk bites him in mid-air, he will fly back realllly far because there is no ground friction to stop him. (hl physics in action) If the marine is on the ground, he only gets nudged 30 units or so. This is the difference.

Grahf · May 2004

*Votes for love of knockback*

Crono5 · May 2004

*Votes for never notices it.

Though I agree with the ROF thing. If they're standing still, it won't be that hard to kill 'em after the first bite.

BobTheJanitor · May 2004

Voting for 'try without it', although this is a really bad time for this poll. With b5 on the horizon and the massive air knockback fixed, this is the worst possible time to consider trying no knockback at all. We should see how the next beta plays with the huge knockback bug fixed, and THEN have this poll.

Daxx · May 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ May 23 2004, 07:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Voting for 'try without it', although this is a really bad time for this poll. With b5 on the horizon and the massive air knockback fixed, this is the worst possible time to consider trying no knockback at all. We should see how the next beta plays with the huge knockback bug fixed, and THEN have this poll.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Agreed. If the knockback bug has been fixed, then thats all that needs to be fixed.

Grendel · May 2004

I'd like Onos knockback to remain. Otherwise, I hope Flayra has time to fix it soon.

BattleTech · May 2004

I concur. Leave the Onos knockback the way it is, just fix it for every other alien especially Fade. They have the hardest time hitting marine's. Let's not forget the knife to, it's aggrivating when a marine come's running up to you with a knife (as an Onos) and just flings you around like a plaything while you're trying to escape.

BobTheJanitor · May 2004

Onos should be knocking back marines, but that's about it. However, that thing where the knockback effect transfers through a structure while a marine's on the other side of it and sends him flying halfway across the room, while amusing, is also quite annoying. Mainly because with FF on if an onos is attacking a structure, none of his teammates can get a hit in on it. They get launched if they get close. That's just silly.

A good place to transfer crazy flying knockback, though, would be to onos's charge. That way you could get your damage in and then go charging out of the room without having to worry about some teeny marine jumping in your way and blocking your exit. Charge SHOULD be sending marines flying, but everything else shouldn't.

Forlorn · May 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Daxx22 @ May 23 2004, 07:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ May 23 2004, 07:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Voting for 'try without it', although this is a really bad time for this poll. With b5 on the horizon and the massive air knockback fixed, this is the worst possible time to consider trying no knockback at all. We should see how the next beta plays with the huge knockback bug fixed, and THEN have this poll. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Agreed. If the knockback bug has been fixed, then thats all that needs to be fixed.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I voted "I love it."

Knockback and the knockback bug are completely unrelated in terms of gameplay.

One is a bug, the other is natural; a few inches pushed to the side after being bit so it takes a little skill on the skulks part to hit you.

Norml_E_High · May 2004

I don't really care either way, though I can already tell you no knockback is bad knockback. Knockback is the only thing that stops a marine from dying instantly. I think knockback in general is a good thing, but they need to do something to prevent people from abusing the bug. Marines don't bunny hop for speed, they don't bunny hop while they are just moving from point A to point B. No, they bunny hop when skulks show up. In part, to jump over them or out of the way, but most people are bunny hopping in hopes of the bug to knock them across a room to secure their kill. If you ever see me whining in a server about knockback, it's not because of a marine getting pushed a few inches back. It's because he just flew across a room and easily killed me. Knockback needs to stay, but airborne knockback needs to go.

SaltzBad · May 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ May 23 2004, 10:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> One is a bug, the other is natural; a few inches pushed to the side after being bit so it takes a little skill on the skulks part to hit you.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
The skill in guessing the correct distance and heading to connect a bite that isn't a) out of range b) does not connect on a target with relative sideways movement although you're aiming correctly c) goes through the marine because you were touching him.

Oh wait. Its not really a skill, its mostly just a randomizer on wether you damage or not, with knockback thrown in for some added mayhem. GG <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

Scythe · May 2004

I'm pretty sure you meant "K<b>N</b>ockback", not "Kockback".

I've never really noticed it.

--Scythe--

coris · May 2004

I voted wrong, I thought it was referring to the bugged knockback. Doh.
Anyway, I do hate when I die as a skulk since I'm too cluse-up for my bites to register, it sucks. But I think thats more related to the player-specific hitboxes <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' />

Sconkel · May 2004

I notice the knockback every time I play alien. Crounching silent to the back of a soldier, getting in range to bite him .. bite once and watching the soldier flying away, turning around and killing me. Great fun really. I also think, that the knockback is reducing the damage I do , because it happens very often 60-70 % that I bite the rine 2-3-4 times.. and nothing happens except he knifes me.... (I know he can have armor 3 .. but not everytime or right at start.)

--> another idea for the "fixed " knockback : Lets turn around the marine while knockbacked so he´gets the chance to kill the skulk, but the skulk gets the chnace to get closer to him cause he must again turn around. Or just use a "random" 500 degree turn or something to .. ( sry i dont know the word) make him crazy a bit ...

now we dance !

ps: use this sound again at 3rd hive please !! It's greeeat !

Codeman · May 2004

Knockback has it's place for when an Onos pwns you with his horn thing, but sif run away with a skulk's chompers wrapped around your leg. I'd have it for Onos only since the other alien's attacks don't suit it (and as a skulk it really gets annoying biting a rine only to have him get far enough away to shoot you before you can close in for the kill)

-- Codeman

Demented · May 2004

I can't remember whether there was knockback in 1.0x.
If there wasn't, then how exactly did the marines survive?

Snidely · May 2004

Curses. When I voted yesterday, I voted for removing it, thinking about arial knockback.

I think it's neccessary for normal knockback to remain, the same way that aliens don't take 1 bullet to kill - the enemy needs to have a chance. I'm a crap skulk, but I can usually get one hit in; it's the second, third and fourth that's the tricky part.

Umbraed_Monkey · May 2004

One question. By removing the normal knockback, might that also defeat the buggy knockback as well?

edit: I voted for going a version without knockback. Not that Im frustrated by it (dont really notice the normal knockback), but I wanna see how it will affect balance.

Align · May 2004

Buggy knockback is defeated already according to Mantis bugtracker...
I accidentally voted for getting rid of it, because Nem didn't specify soon enough that he meant the "push aside" knockback, as opposed to the "fly at 50 mph through the air" knockback.
Should be in the topic sub-name really :/ If one person(me) votes after reading the topic name and the first sentence of the post and then votes, then others are likely to make the same mistake...

Haunted · May 2004

It's my belief that if a skulk gets within biting distance of a marine because the marine can't hit a skulk 9 times, they deserve to die, so I'd like to at least try no knockback. It's a beta, if the skulks rape the marines more than predicted, then we can always revert. Anyways, the simplest fix for the knockback bug is to get rid of knockback period.

Zek · May 2004

Oops, I voted to remove it thinking of the airborn knockback as well. You did say in Beta 4, after all. Assuming that's fixed then knockback definitely should remain for Beta 5 just so we can see how it is with the bug fixed. I still don't really like knockback because it seems like a bandaid fix to a serious issue, but I'm willing to accept it as a necessary evil if it works out pretty well in Beta 5.

I really wish something would be done to nerf the ridiculous jump dodging that marines do so frequently though. Jumping around like a rabbit in order to dodge bites while simultaneously firing accurately at a skulk just doesn't fit with the concept of the marines at all.

Sewlek · May 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>It's so frustrating, lets try without it.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

saberx · May 2004

I'd like to try it without any knockback, so I'm voting for it to be removed. I'd like to see just how big an impact it has.

MrMojo · May 2004

It's pretty big with people who know how to recreate it. Seeing as ( and hoping ) the hitbox alien bug will be fixed in the near future, this will balance the game more.

Norml_E_High · May 2004

Well, I'll admit half of my post had to do with air-marine knockback, but still, I voted I don't mind it. I can see alot of people haven't really thought through what having no knockback will mean. I certainly hope the devs don't actually do this.

Think about it. Level 0 Light Armor Marines. Two bites.

Now think about how fast a skulk without focus bites. Now apply that to never missing the marine when you get him because he doesnt get knocked around. Marine = dead in time it takes to bite again. GG marine.

Lets take a look at the realistic approach. Leap/bite. Think of a small dog flying through the air at a high velocity into your chest. Are you going to stand there and not move? I'm sure all the leet doods out there are saying "No way doodzor I'm strong!!!111oneeleven" So yeah, we've established that a small dog at high velocity will knock you around a bit.

Just getting bitten by a skulk would knock you off balance, probably wouldnt knock you back every time but you'd still be woosied and in pain.

You'd see a high jump in alien skill levels if this was tried for a version. Also most likely a drop in marine team activity "for a while", cause who wants to be the guys getting waxed every game? However, it could very well increase teamwork as marines to the point that kharaa can't win anymore. Think about it. Marines would start carrying welders everywhere. Camping areas while the commander scanned forward. Carrying shotguns more often? I mean the commander might be spending too much res, but if he can't get anywhere with dead marines he might as well spend the good stuff trying to do it.

Daxx · May 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (saberx @ May 24 2004, 02:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I'd like to try it without any knockback, so I'm voting for it to be removed. I'd like to see just how big an impact it has.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
No Knockback is pretty brutal. You don't realize it, but the "normal" knockback (30 units average) really helps, without screwing over the skulks chances. Having no knockback at all means the marine won't move at all when attacked, and that skulk just has to hold down the bite button for two quick hits and death.

Remove knockback entirely, and you'll start seeing some pretty extream Kharaa ownage. The Rambo will become pretty much extinct. While this would be a good thing imho, the minor knockback is a sutle balancer that I believe needs to be there.

<b>Don't</b> remove knockback entirely. Lets play the next Beta with the super-knockback-'o-doom fixed first.

rennex · May 2004

Maybe flayra forgot already but we tried 'no knockback' in 1.1 beta testing and marines (old school vets) got rocked hard.

Knockback In Beta 4

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