Getting More Pub Commanders
Niteowl
Join Date: 2002-09-04 Member: 1274Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Join Date: 2002-09-04 Member: 1274Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">the lifeblood of NS in pubs..</div>
It seems, as of late, there is really a dearth of pub commanders. Competent commanders are what make games fun, memorable, and what makes NS so fun to play. I'm sure many a forum goer has played the alien game of utter, pure, complete domination ad nauseum.They are not particularly fun (except in a relaxing popping-those-plastic-wrapping-bubbles kinda way), and usually result in less would be commanders wanted to jump in the chair.
It's really my firm belief, that getting more players to try, and to become competent commanders, is imperative to the health of pub NS play. Currently, commanding is basically an all or nothing situation. You go from grunting, to commanding a real game. It's like going from walking (grunting/back seat comanding), to being strapped on a rocket going 900 MPH.
I'm not sure what a proper answer to this would be. So I'll throw out random ideas (other than the "play on a regular server" idea, which I do, but doesn't solve the problem for your average pub). All these solutions, I'd prefer see implemented as a server var, or player voting, so the fundamental, raw game of NS isn't changed; only tweaked to ease new commanders in. This will ALSO be useful to make commanding doable by players who just have never gotten the knack of commanding a full speed game.
-Somehow make the game slower (via player voting.. or server var? Certainly not something that will make the game slower permanently for all servers (as some pubs, and all scrims, i assume, enjoy the incredible fast pace of NS)). The game will have more skirmishes, and tech will progress slower for both sides. TBH, having fades at 4 or so minutes, along with second hive at 5 minutes, is really a VERY fast pace of game for anyone braving the CC for the first time. Perhaps increase cost of everything so upgrades and tech on both side takes twice as long?
-Have a mode where a marine can set waypoints (perhaps put a marine in a particular squad, and that squad can set waypoints). While the commander tries to figure out tech and such.
-Making speccing commanders work, so you can watch your favorite commander command, how he does what, when, where.
-Perhaps package Whichbot and RCBot with NS, with a easy to use GUI, maybe a button that says "Practice commanding" or somesuch, and sets up all the bots.
Any other ideas? Do any forumites agree with me on this?
It seems, as of late, there is really a dearth of pub commanders. Competent commanders are what make games fun, memorable, and what makes NS so fun to play. I'm sure many a forum goer has played the alien game of utter, pure, complete domination ad nauseum.They are not particularly fun (except in a relaxing popping-those-plastic-wrapping-bubbles kinda way), and usually result in less would be commanders wanted to jump in the chair.
It's really my firm belief, that getting more players to try, and to become competent commanders, is imperative to the health of pub NS play. Currently, commanding is basically an all or nothing situation. You go from grunting, to commanding a real game. It's like going from walking (grunting/back seat comanding), to being strapped on a rocket going 900 MPH.
I'm not sure what a proper answer to this would be. So I'll throw out random ideas (other than the "play on a regular server" idea, which I do, but doesn't solve the problem for your average pub). All these solutions, I'd prefer see implemented as a server var, or player voting, so the fundamental, raw game of NS isn't changed; only tweaked to ease new commanders in. This will ALSO be useful to make commanding doable by players who just have never gotten the knack of commanding a full speed game.
-Somehow make the game slower (via player voting.. or server var? Certainly not something that will make the game slower permanently for all servers (as some pubs, and all scrims, i assume, enjoy the incredible fast pace of NS)). The game will have more skirmishes, and tech will progress slower for both sides. TBH, having fades at 4 or so minutes, along with second hive at 5 minutes, is really a VERY fast pace of game for anyone braving the CC for the first time. Perhaps increase cost of everything so upgrades and tech on both side takes twice as long?
-Have a mode where a marine can set waypoints (perhaps put a marine in a particular squad, and that squad can set waypoints). While the commander tries to figure out tech and such.
-Making speccing commanders work, so you can watch your favorite commander command, how he does what, when, where.
-Perhaps package Whichbot and RCBot with NS, with a easy to use GUI, maybe a button that says "Practice commanding" or somesuch, and sets up all the bots.
Any other ideas? Do any forumites agree with me on this?
Comments
Another idea: Dual commanding mode. A mode for a server to allow two commanders at once. Then the more experienced commander could help command. This idea is smacktard prone, but sans-smacktards it could be a good way to train a new commander. Teams might have to be +1 on marine side too.
It'd be cool if someone made a WC3 or TA mod that immitated NS comm play. With WC3 keycraft, buttons could be exact too. Would be difficult to make such a mod, though.
Imagine playing WC3 and having your hero(es) turn around and constantly complain. "OMG!? Another barracks?" "OMG! Not enough preists! Eject!"
Not fun. Not in the least.
Not only do you get blamed (and blacklisted) if marines lose, but there are plenty of "back seat coms". These guys won't com (unless they absolutely have to) but they'll be more than willing to shout out advice. Each has their own preferred build order, and if you deviate from it (i.e. a TF at base) you get an earload.
Other problems (such as the frenzied pace) can be solved, but I'm not sure about the two above.
Oh, by the way - <i>Watchmen </i>rocks. Rorschach is the man.
Oh, by the way - <i>Watchmen </i>rocks. Rorschach is the man. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, yes it does <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> rorschach does rock.. but kinda scary. and who am i kidding? i'm not near as psychotic/cool/tough as he is. but pudgy geek with gadgets who gets teh girl? sure, i'll be that dude <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ok, back on topic. besides the fact that comming can be tough, socially speaking, it's also suuper hectic to play. it's like having to play WC3 against bots who are on SUPER DUPER UBER HARD all the time (to borrow from your analogy). all i'm saying is that there should be a way to make it easier on commanders, but make it still balanced. slwoing it down some way would do a lot to help out the newbie comms.
It's really starting to annoy me how you have to have marines who are better than the aliens in order to compete with them. Fades going round and destroying literally everything in 5 minutes is bloody annoying. I find once they get a fade (if they are anywhere near competant) you can kiss your expansion goodbye and you'll lose a couple of your more remote res nodes aswell.
Static defenses anywhere apart from in your base are completely useless, mines aren't much better against the only lifeforms you need defenses for and when they get two hives all mines become useless as a gorge can take out nearly a base worth with one bile bomb (going redemption gorge when you know their main form of defence is mines is funny). Handing out shotguns isn't as much use as it should be with the insane health levels due to fixing the hitboxes.
To get more comms into the game I believe the game needs to be played at a slower pace. Maybe locking fades and oni to a second hive in some way would do this (either a 2nd one building, built or at some point you've held 2 hives), or upping the cost of res nodes to say 20 resources and upping their health level to compensate slightly. But I really believe the pace of the game needs to be slower.
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my sentiments EXACTLY! however, i don't want to ruin the game for leet and uber players. an on the fly fix/variable to allow for learnign comms. something a little more forgiving.
I hate comming because I can't feel in control. The interface just plain feels clunky. If someone made an RTS with the NS comm interface, it would be a huge bomb. No one would buy it. I realize we're dealing with the HL engine but that doesn't change the fact that it's a pain to comm--no matter how good you are.
Of course, the alien who fades 5 minutes usually res****d and has a pretty good chance of being incompetent. Other than that, until second hive or fade, the aliens have no means of taking out even the smallest marine defences (unless you can somehow get the whole team together and rush). Marine defences alone shouldn't be able to hold back the higher lifeforms - build a phase and keep an eye on your stuff.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe locking fades and oni to a second hive in some way would do this (either a 2nd one building, built or at some point you've held 2 hives)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem is that if marines get an early two hive lockdown (a good marine team/comm can do this to even competent alien teams) then aliens would have virtually no way to take a hive back. Not that it isn't already very difficult to break a lockdown already.
Now as for good comms, I agree that they are a scarce commodity. And it's hard to learn as marine teams seldom put up with a Comm-In-Training [CIT]. Make one big mistake and your toast. I really like the idea of including the bots in default NS setup and making a practice comm selection. (I've played with bots as comm, they are surprisingly realistic - they never follow orders and always go the wrong way.)
Comms are a rare breed, nothing other than practice can make a good comm. Don't blame it on the aliens thou, they have enough problems as it is.
You said a slower game might be a good way to learn. Well <b>smaller NS games</b> tend to be slower.
i.e. You could set a server with player limit 7 and do 3 aliens vs 4 marines.
Since 7 players isn't to heavy a load for a PC just start your own game on the Internet with 7 player limit and name the game <span style='color:red'><b>"Commander Practice"</b></span> with or without RCbot or even Whichbot. If you do this during prime time I'm sure you'd get a few to join. You could also add <new to comming> to end of your name.
Infact I'll try this myself.
The fact that you had a comm is what made ns different, the only hl mod I think with that factor. The comm needs to be active, he needs to be in control. Now all it is is the marines are in the control and they tell the comm what to do and where they are going.
E.g. We start a game get built up, I walk off to an RT and ask the comm for an rt (almost typed ask the rt for a comm:))
We have all done that (well almost all) and well that is not the way ns should be, the comm should be ordering us to the RT's.
I feel slowing down the game could work, but it would be so dull, imagine waiting 2 minutes to build an rt or something.
I think Co_ is being played too much at the moment and when people get bored of it they realise there are no comms because everyone is used to co.
I think the main problem is the good players sort of control the comm. They dont give him enough free will of his own.
I comm when I have to, haven't been much, but it does seem a little slow and hard to control as comm sometimes.
I was just thinking, feel free to flame me for this, how about have:
Squad captains who could bring up the map as usual but send their squad to different places on the map who would recieve orders from the great comm sitting in his cc <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I feel like I could be a great comm, I've served under plenty of good comms(and bad) and know what to, and what not to do. Build orders, when to do what at certain points of the game, etc etc.
I think there are alot of players out there like me( not the voice problems, but knowing HOW to comm) but they just never get in because they just have never been able to get practice.
I really like the idea of being able to play a game with bots to learn how to comm. Maybe the devs could created a tutorial that came with the game where you could use like RCbots or something to learn how to comm. IMO, this is definately and issue that needs attention.
This way players would have experience commanding, and the only thing new to them actually commanding would be player behaviour(not following orders, back seat commanders) and how to deal with it.
In the servers I play on you generally find that it's one of your best players that's saved for fade. We do have some level of team work on the servers I play on so we generally have one fade, one hive, a few on nodes and 1 or 2 on chambers.
If you wanted to slow the game down within the current system of play I'd say you'd have to do 2 things.
1. Remove electrification - it's virtually never used in clan play because it's nowhere near cost effective, and it's just a pain in the arse in public play.
2. Increase the HP and cost of all structures - make res nodes take longer to down, giving the comm more time to tell his troops of the attack, and give the aliens a bit more than 10 seconds to react if more than one marine is there. Making structures cost more would mean you have to save for longer, slowing the game down. Making it take longer to down a structure would slow the game down and lead to prolonged fights for territory rather than minor scurmishes (sp?) to take something down. Hives would take longer to siege and more resources to do so, slowing the game down and giving the aliens a larger window in which to react.
If you were to put these changes into effect then I think you would also have to increase the cost of at least the fade and the onos to around 70 and 100 resources respectively. This is so that they would not appear what would be relatively earlier in the game.
We have combat now for the battles, I think classic should return to being the war it once was.
In the servers I play on you generally find that it's one of your best players that's saved for fade. We do have some level of team work on the servers I play on so we generally have one fade, one hive, a few on nodes and 1 or 2 on chambers.
If you wanted to slow the game down within the current system of play I'd say you'd have to do 2 things.
1. Remove electrification - it's virtually never used in clan play because it's nowhere near cost effective, and it's just a pain in the arse in public play.
2. Increase the HP and cost of all structures - make res nodes take longer to down, giving the comm more time to tell his troops of the attack, and give the aliens a bit more than 10 seconds to react if more than one marine is there. Making structures cost more would mean you have to save for longer, slowing the game down. Making it take longer to down a structure would slow the game down and lead to prolonged fights for territory rather than minor scurmishes (sp?) to take something down. Hives would take longer to siege and more resources to do so, slowing the game down and giving the aliens a larger window in which to react.
If you were to put these changes into effect then I think you would also have to increase the cost of at least the fade and the onos to around 70 and 100 resources respectively. This is so that they would not appear what would be relatively earlier in the game.
We have combat now for the battles, I think classic should return to being the war it once was. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good idea. Why not just lower the rate of res flow instead of raising the cost? Easier to implement and can be tweaked easily for tournament mode if the clanners feel that this is done at the expense of their enjoyment.
Structural balance seems fairly okay right now actually. Electrification can stay - yes, its fairly strong on publics and alot less interesting in clanplay, but in neither case is it clear cut. Electrification in clanplay still has its role in a number of strategys, situations and counters - its just specialised, like most things are to some extent.
The main reason I dare say you rarely see competent comms on most public servers is simply the marines. Noone in their right mind wants to put up with the whole "ONG NEWBCOMM" babble, the general directionless swarming about instead of following a simple, precise order over voice et cetera. (My favorite "Ong comm gimme HMG/JP I can kill Onos!!!!111")
At least, for me thats the reason that once I did learn how to reasonably comm, I never looked back onto most public servers. But in the end, the experience on both sides is dependant on the servers play quality - bad alien teamplay does fall prey to sub-par commanding easily, and vice versa. Theres not that big an imbalance there - the game is just plain less fun when people can't work together.
Now I only play scrims.
Now I only play scrims. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
thanks for the OT there GL <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
i like the idea of raising hp and costs across the board. anything to make it somewhat more manageable for the pub commander. then again, maybe all we need is a nice bot and tutorial package?
perhaps there are other ideas out there on how to get more ppl pub commanding, and improving?
Nope...actually, people complained when Flayra announced that he would be shortening the game.
However, I do think if this was resovled, you would see slower games with more outposts, and more invested in territory. One of the things that I enjoyed from 1.x and even some in 2.x was the battle for ground. It's more fun to me to continually attack/defend outposts in one location than to run around and around the map replacing nodes that had no protection. Then commanders have even more strategies to pull from.
Just my 2 cents.
EDIT: Clarification on the Fade issue. After thinking about it, I don't think the fade is "overpowered", I think the blink ability it. I needs to be more like 1.x style IMO.
I used to com all the time (every 2-3 games) and I developed strategies and had a blast.
Then in the beta they put spacers around the buildings - no build zones. This ruined comming for me completely for these reasons:
1. I couldn't place buildings EXACTLY where I wanted them
2. It takes 3x as long to place a building - distracting me from my other jobs
3. After Unsuccessfully placing a building for the 3rd time, and having 1 sink into the floor, all the "suprize" advantage is completely gone.
4. It takes longer to make any "phaze in" tactics work -
"com - I need a phaze gate here NOW!!"
"I'm sorry, soldier, the game isn't letting me build one next to your location. You will have to move into the open hallway to build the one I just dropped - Cancel that, it is sinking into the floor. Wait there 2 more minutes until I get the res agian, and move a bit to your right so I can attempt to drop it where you were standing - oh your dead? well Good Game. Time to blame me for it!"
First... Let me explain that i almost never commed in 1.0-2.0... almost NEVER. However, my eyes were open and my ears were listening while i grunted under some of the best comms this game has ever seen. Comming is really hard to explain... there are very subtle things a comm can do that greatly helps marines in the field (holding cursor over enemies and reporting health levels for one example). Knowing when to spend the res you have and on what also is key. If your bad at commanding, Go alien and keep thinking up ways to ruin the marine's day... you will for sure notice many things that you can prepare for on the other side of the table.
One thing about comming that is for sure... There are no constants. Your team can suck, your team can pwn... that fade could chose to attack elsewhere. If you lose oh well, thats luck and skill for you! Realise that you dont have to win 100% of the time and just RELAX... your there to have fun. Good Luck newbie comms... my best wishes go out to you all!
Majority of "newbie comms" are the people who just into the chair after a few days of gameplay, or are the types that really have no skill at RTS. Rest are at least decent, understanding both tactics and strategy. It takes a veteran commander to know when to shower medpacks and when to scrooge every resourse point or handle micro-management and macro-management well though. Personally I find no major problems with commanding as it is now. The only thing that annoys me from time to time is the lack of commslap plugin or the like on many servers - comm needs to have the "stick" to go with the "carrot" (medpacks, weapons) for the disruptive players <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
However, I do think if this was resovled, you would see slower games with more outposts, and more invested in territory. One of the things that I enjoyed from 1.x and even some in 2.x was the battle for ground. It's more fun to me to continually attack/defend outposts in one location than to run around and around the map replacing nodes that had no protection. Then commanders have even more strategies to pull from.
Just my 2 cents.
EDIT: Clarification on the Fade issue. After thinking about it, I don't think the fade is "overpowered", I think the blink ability it. I needs to be more like 1.x style IMO. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OTOH, if the aliens DON'T get an early fade, they are pretty much SOL and looses the game, mostly due to skulks being just too weak. The fade is the first alien that can actually expect to win fights against marines. Skulks are just cannonfodder, and lerks isn't all that much better.
I'd like to see a stronger skulk and a weaker fade.
Elements such as locked lifeforms for 1/2/3 hives.
That will slow down 3 minute fades and focus more on locking down/putting up hives instead of who gets the most rt's and goes 'train of doom/ono rush ^___^'.
€2