<!--quoteo(post=1602809:date=Jan 30 2007, 04:59 AM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Jan 30 2007, 04:59 AM) [snapback]1602809[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> He wants what it is now and forever. That's why fades and lerks are changing in the new version.
NS needs more players and making the game easier will solve the problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS is not going to get a new influx of players because the fade and lerk changed. It is too late in the development cycle to make such radical changes.
If they wanted to make those changes, they should have done it in the 2.01 era. because each patch after that despite the game becoming "better" statistically has significantly less people playing the game than the version before.
So at that rate, one can expect the next patch to yield more results that actually push people away from the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1602825:date=Jan 30 2007, 08:27 AM:name=Firewater)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Jan 30 2007, 08:27 AM) [snapback]1602825[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> NS is not going to get a new influx of players because the fade and lerk changed. It is too late in the development cycle to make such radical changes.
If they wanted to make those changes, they should have done it in the 2.01 era. because each patch after that despite the game becoming "better" statistically has significantly less people playing the game than the version before. So at that rate, one can expect the next patch to yield more results that actually push people away from the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1602825:date=Jan 30 2007, 05:27 AM:name=Firewater)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Jan 30 2007, 05:27 AM) [snapback]1602825[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> NS is not going to get a new influx of players because the fade and lerk changed. It is too late in the development cycle to make such radical changes.
If they wanted to make those changes, they should have done it in the 2.01 era. because each patch after that despite the game becoming "better" statistically has significantly less people playing the game than the version before. So at that rate, one can expect the next patch to yield more results that actually push people away from the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course it's not. The only thing those changes did was nerf the uber-fade/lerks. Fade and lerking (NS invents words yay) are still challenging for the common player.
What I see from my friends that have tried NS is that they quit after giving up against some of the more skilled players.
I think that cycle has applied to every version of NS.
But if the game were to be easier, perhaps new people would be more inclined to continue, if they believed they had a chance against these better players.
Id be glad if there were players that were so good i didnt have a chance to even touch them, this would motivate me to improve my game. Right now i can see many faults in my play and there is lots that can be improved but there just is no point because noone is more than marginaly better than me, i find this kind of sad.
<!--quoteo(post=1602945:date=Jan 30 2007, 08:25 PM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Jan 30 2007, 08:25 PM) [snapback]1602945[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Of course it's not. The only thing those changes did was nerf the uber-fade/lerks. Fade and lerking (NS invents words yay) are still challenging for the common player.
What I see from my friends that have tried NS is that they quit after giving up against some of the more skilled players.
I think that cycle has applied to every version of NS.
But if the game were to be easier, perhaps new people would be more inclined to continue, if they believed they had a chance against these better players. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry sir, I don't think making NS easier at this stage of the game is going to help the population out. Most pepople who have played this game once already will most likely not return. The amount of players that will be lost to the actual changes will be significantly out numbered by the ones who will come back, it has happened since 2.01.
VMS hit the nail on the head, there are no real rewards for being a top player in Natural Selection, ergo this is no reason to sharpen his skills because he is already dominant.
There used to be some benefits to being a competitive player, such as community recognition, servers that would cater to competitive players, etc.. Now there is little to no benefit to play this competitively because CAL is no longer around. Sure there are the ENSL and ANSL, but in reality these leagues pale in comparison to CAL. I respect that competitive community for continuing their efforts, but in all honestly anyone who wants to compete at a high level may want to learn a new game as there are no longer any real benefits of being an excellent NS player.
no real rewards for being a top player in ns? are you crazy? this is a game, and games are competetive.
i LOVE kicking peoples ###### in ns games. it feels great. its the basic "im better than you" feeling, and unless you are joining an ns game saying "oh man im gonna CHAT with people!", tehn you are playing for the same reason, even though the degree in which may be different form person to person.
although it doesnt seem to be as fun anymore for reasons unknown to me.
<!--quoteo(post=1603123:date=Jan 31 2007, 11:17 AM:name=Firewater)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Jan 31 2007, 11:17 AM) [snapback]1603123[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Sorry sir, I don't think making NS easier at this stage of the game is going to help the population out. Most pepople who have played this game once already will most likely not return. The amount of players that will be lost to the actual changes will be significantly out numbered by the ones who will come back, it has happened since 2.01.
VMS hit the nail on the head, there are no real rewards for being a top player in Natural Selection, ergo this is no reason to sharpen his skills because he is already dominant.
There used to be some benefits to being a competitive player, such as community recognition, servers that would cater to competitive players, etc.. Now there is little to no benefit to play this competitively because CAL is no longer around. Sure there are the ENSL and ANSL, but in reality these leagues pale in comparison to CAL. I respect that competitive community for continuing their efforts, but in all honestly anyone who wants to compete at a high level may want to learn a new game as there are no longer any real benefits of being an excellent NS player. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think making the game easier at this point WILL help the population out. Thanks for your theories, but I believe that players that will see NS for the first-time in the future will have an easier time adapting to the game, then learning from the rough curve we have already.
The benefits of being a competitive player is that you are good as in you are WINNING. There is no more, nor should there be any more to that. Now if the game was made easier, the lesser players could be closer to the level where competitive players are and we'd see more even games. But I guess there's a problem with games with balanced teams.
<!--quoteo(post=1603184:date=Jan 31 2007, 04:54 PM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Jan 31 2007, 04:54 PM) [snapback]1603184[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think making the game easier at this point WILL help the population out. Thanks for your theories, but I believe that players that will see NS for the first-time in the future will have an easier time adapting to the game, then learning from the rough curve we have already.
The benefits of being a competitive player is that you are good as in you are WINNING. There is no more, nor should there be any more to that. Now if the game was made easier, the lesser players could be closer to the level where competitive players are and we'd see more even games. But I guess there's a problem with games with balanced teams. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Balance the game, not the players. It's not the game's fault if you get scraped every time you touch anything competitive <img src="http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/6286/tardwg7.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
PS: "Thanks for your theories" <-- ironic that you would say this, judging by your posts in the discussions forum
Well, so far no multiplayer FPS game has been successful based purely on it's intense gamer community. Like it or not, a majoriety of any game's playerbase are casual players.
That said, a game which doesn't appeal to competative gamers isn't good either.
CS for instance has a good solution to this dilemma. Headshots are essentially the equalizer that keeps things fun for both sides.
The trick is how you appeal to both casual and intense gamers at the same time. Aka. Make it Easy to start, while also Hard to master.
_
That said, when it comes to older games. Usually it's best not to try to dramatically alter them.
Since the main thing keeping people around is because they like the game how it is. They have a sentimental attachment to it.
Change it too much, remove some the aspects they are most attached to and all you can expect is for the playerbase to shrink. Since you can't expect much playerbase growth to replace it.
It's like performing massive operations on a old dying cancer patient. The cure can be worse than the disease.
<!--quoteo(post=1603212:date=Jan 31 2007, 04:56 PM:name=Jmmsbnd007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jmmsbnd007 @ Jan 31 2007, 04:56 PM) [snapback]1603212[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Balance the game, not the players. It's not the game's fault if you get scraped every time you touch anything competitive <img src="http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/6286/tardwg7.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
PS: "Thanks for your theories" <-- ironic that you would say this, judging by your posts in the discussions forum <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So it's the game's fault and then it's my fault.
Obviously, the game is the only thing we can change here. I'm not going to waste my time making a post to vet players saying "PLZ PLAY WORSE!".
I don't think it's ironic because we all have our theories as I have mine. Firewater retorted with "sorry, sir", but my goal was not to change his beliefs, but rather state mine, which he has done as well. So I don't write what I do to change what you think. I just say it because that's what I think. I don't eat cereal to make you do the same, I do it because I have chosen to.
I think the game can still be challenging, even if the learning curve on reflex-based activities is dumbed down. Then it would come down to choosing what to do at the right time, more than how well you have the reflexes to aim or fade, something like chess.
<!--quoteo(post=1603240:date=Feb 1 2007, 03:07 AM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Feb 1 2007, 03:07 AM) [snapback]1603240[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think the game can still be challenging, even if the learning curve on reflex-based activities is dumbed down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But often with that side of the spectrum, people tend to confuse Difficulty of understanding the game Versus genuine strategic difficulty.
_
And as mentioned above, a game thats hemoraging playerbase that lacks solid prospects of "new blood" Is not the place to be making dramatic changes.
So this is more of a discussion about NS2 than NS1 I would imagine. Or just arguement for arguements sake...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, so far no multiplayer FPS game has been successful based purely on it's intense gamer community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Huh? How about CS?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CS for instance has a good solution to this dilemma. Headshots are essentially the equalizer that keeps things fun for both sides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What?
Anyways...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> So it's the game's fault and then it's my fault.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> When did I say this? I said that you shouldn't blame the game for your own faults.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not going to waste my time making a post to vet players saying "PLZ PLAY WORSE!".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Aren't you doing a variant of this by making a post to the devs asking for an easier game?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think it's ironic because we all have our theories as I have mine. Firewater retorted with "sorry, sir", but my goal was not to change his beliefs, but rather state mine, which he has done as well. So I don't write what I do to change what you think. I just say it because that's what I think. I don't eat cereal to make you do the same, I do it because I have chosen to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <u>What?</u> Are you new to the internet? You don't even make sense...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the game can still be challenging, even if the learning curve on reflex-based activities is dumbed down. Then it would come down to choosing what to do at the right time, more than how well you have the reflexes to aim or fade, something like chess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The most popular FPS game in the world (CS) is also probably the most open-ended game (especially pertaining to "choosing what to do at the right time". I could delve into this in further detail, but you wouldn't understand.
I feel that I am trekking into a circular argument, as I suspect you're just going to try and jam me with some seriously fvcked up logic. Normally I'd exercise my almost non-existent self-restraint in this very situation, but eventually you (and the rest of your kind) will brute force ###### idea after ###### idea onto the face of the earth and my life will be perpetually ruined. Why are you trying to ruin my life?
i wish this game was easier to play because then i wouldn't get made fun of as much <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
I believe that the game could be easier to accomodate players from both pub and vet backgrounds. Don't confuse the term blaming with what's already happening.
Choosing what to do at the right time could hardly apply to CS. Spot enemy, aim, control fire. C'mon don't make up some BS that CS involves surgical skills. That's why they don't slap the strategy sticker on that game. NS however, is supposedly a fusion of "strategic and reflex" game types, yet most people would agree that the game as of now is currently a twitchfest.
I'm here to say what I think. How you respond is entirely up to you. If you don't like being angry, simple, don't choose to be.
Ok well you have proved to me that you don't know what you are talking about (not a surprise) and therefore I'm not going to take you seriously <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> Tell me, why do all the professional teams play CS? You may be saying what you think, and what you think is <i>wrong</i> by any well-informed person's standards. I have come to the realization that you are the kind of gamer that likes games for their graphics and their perceived-but-non-existent features (omg teamwork!!!), enjoys playing by the rules, and complains about things that they don't understand (e.g. "exploits"); therefore, I conclude that you are a <a href="http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/" target="_blank">scrub</a>. Have a nice day <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
(Oh, and your "waa waa CS is just aiming" dumpster-of-a-proposition has an obvious counterexample: you could run around with an aimbot and a pro player would still defeat you with ease)
<!--quoteo(post=1603243:date=Jan 31 2007, 10:17 PM:name=GreyFlcn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GreyFlcn @ Jan 31 2007, 10:17 PM) [snapback]1603243[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> But often with that side of the spectrum, people tend to confuse Difficulty of understanding the game Versus genuine strategic difficulty.
_
And as mentioned above, a game thats hemoraging playerbase that lacks solid prospects of "new blood" Is not the place to be making dramatic changes.
So this is more of a discussion about NS2 than NS1 I would imagine. Or just arguement for arguements sake... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1603252:date=Feb 1 2007, 04:23 AM:name=Jmmsbnd007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jmmsbnd007 @ Feb 1 2007, 04:23 AM) [snapback]1603252[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Huh? How about CS?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How many pub servers does it have? How many competative league servers does it have?
Compare.
Now, are you telling me CS was designed to exclude casual gamers?
<!--quoteo(post=1603264:date=Feb 1 2007, 12:13 AM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Feb 1 2007, 12:13 AM) [snapback]1603264[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Choosing what to do at the right time could hardly apply to CS. Spot enemy, aim, control fire. C'mon don't make up some BS that CS involves surgical skills. That's why they don't slap the strategy sticker on that game. NS however, is supposedly a fusion of "strategic and reflex" game types, yet most people would agree that the game as of now is currently a twitchfest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you have got to be joking. cs is infinitely more advanced in terms of strategy, tactics, perception of the game than ns is or will ever be. not only because they are different games, but because professional competition has taken cs so much further.
you probably dont ever think about what ns would be like if it had 2 million players and status as the #1 cpl game.
btw: ns, as of now, is a joke. you can do anything you want and screw strategy if you have enough personal skill. but thats not the game's fault, its the lack of competition.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, are you telling me CS was designed to exclude casual gamers?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> cs was designed to exclude nobody
Way to break CS down to the lowest common demoninator. Isn't NS just run to the hive and spawn camp or go fade and own? Of course not. I don't claim to know competitive CS but I figure competitions with $50000 cash prize will generate some innovative strategies and tactics.
There are no truely good NS players left, even the veterans of the past like wltrs and Fana are a pale shadow of past form in comparasion, and that being said they're still more than capable of decimating the remaining joke teams. Flatline are a #3 team in EUNS and whilst I salute them for their continued improvements they wouldn't be if we hadn't seen the continued detoriation of the competitive scene; even in this joke of a scene they fail to win anything. Like pantsu said, top players can maintain that level with miminal practise.
NS doesn't allow players to develop their skills and strategies as much as the professional competition of CS does. This is a game with huge potential to be as indepth and complex as anything but it never will be. It's unfortunate that the current version of NS allows for some amazing tactical verstality and yet because of the dwindled player base there'll not be extensive experimentation, there is no competition and demand for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1603293:date=Feb 1 2007, 02:38 AM:name=GreyFlcn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GreyFlcn @ Feb 1 2007, 02:38 AM) [snapback]1603293[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> How many pub servers does it have? How many competative league servers does it have?
Compare.
Now, are you telling me CS was designed to exclude casual gamers? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So now you're determining how large and successful a game is by the number of servers? If I wrote a program that spawned 1,000,000 NS servers, NS would then become the most popular FPS game in the world! What a great idea!
CS wasn't designed to exclude everyone. When did I say that? CS is <i>extremely</i> open ended for the players. I also really appreciate how you just say that CS is merely "aiming". Man, I can't believe the NBA exists, basketball is just throwing a ball into a hoop!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do you all keep turning this into a discussion about whether NS or CS is better?
This topic is not meant for comparing CS to NS. If you want to discuss this, go make a new thread elsewhere, like the off-topic forum<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This CS discussion is relevant and pertinent to the thread as we are discussing what makes games successful (well, actually, it's more like I'm telling Greyflcn and Smoodcroozn, and they just aren't capable of comprehending the facts). Interestingly enough, the original purpose of this thread was to discuss a survey that had at least one biased question*, but I do agree, a mod/someone should split this discussion into another thread.
*Apparently one of the questions on the survey asked the respondent to give their opinion on game/round-time length, and the answers were something along the line of "It's okay as it is, I prefer longer games, I prefer much longer games" etc. From what I was told, there was not even one option for "I prefer shorter games".
<!--quoteo(post=1603344:date=Feb 1 2007, 03:57 PM:name=Jmmsbnd007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jmmsbnd007 @ Feb 1 2007, 03:57 PM) [snapback]1603344[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> So now you're determining how large and successful a game is by the number of servers? If I wrote a program that spawned 1,000,000 NS servers, NS would then become the most popular FPS game in the world! What a great idea! <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nope, however number of servers tends to be proportional to number of players.
<!--quoteo(post=1603344:date=Feb 1 2007, 03:57 PM:name=Jmmsbnd007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jmmsbnd007 @ Feb 1 2007, 03:57 PM) [snapback]1603344[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Grey: "Well, so far no multiplayer FPS game has been successful based purely on it's intense gamer community." James: "What about CS? Huh?" Grey: "Now, are you telling me CS was designed to exclude casual gamers?" James: "CS wasn't designed to exclude everyone. When did I say that?" <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1603348:date=Feb 1 2007, 10:26 AM:name=GreyFlcn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GreyFlcn @ Feb 1 2007, 10:26 AM) [snapback]1603348[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Nope, however number of servers tends to be proportional to number of players. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you also can't use the number of servers to determine the size of the competitive community for a particular game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Grey: "Well, so far no multiplayer FPS game has been successful based purely on it's intense gamer community." James: "What about CS? Huh?" Grey: "Now, are you telling me CS was designed to exclude casual gamers?" James: "CS wasn't designed to exclude everyone. When did I say that?"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You made the proposition that no multiplayer FPS game has been successful based on its gamer community. I don't really know what to say here. Perhaps you meant to say "competitive" instead of "intense"? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Although pubbers make up the vast majority of all game[r]s, competitive matchplay gets televised on DirectTV; whereas pubbers fill servers, pad stats, and play for fun (or whatever they play for <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />)
Well lets face it, there will always be significantly more pub players than competitive players. Skill is a resource, often perceived, but rarely achieved by non-competitive players, but is a requirement to compete. The pub community is simply important because they are revenue generators to games that require money to have access to them. Since the overwhelming majority of gamers are casual (especially in this mod), it is beneficial to keep these people around for NS2 so that Flayra and Co can stop taking donations that do not pay the bills for the forums, and start collecting some real money.
There is a flip side however, the reason why a lot of games stay around is because of a thriving competitive scene. Counter Strike came out when I was around 15, I believe, I am now 24. The public scene drove the game, but the competitive scene keeps it alive because there can be money to be made through tournaments and what not. A lot of players are wannabes, and will never adjust their mindset to that of a champion, but those who can and currently do now, can make a decent living off playing video games.
A great game needs both in terms of its success in $$$$ and the longevity of the game.
NS used to be a great game. But regardless of the changes every version since 2.01 has dropped the playerbase significantly. The playerbase is so terrible now that CAL had to drop the NS division.
There are not going to be any significant new numbers despite what the pathetic anecdotal evidence (well my friends would play if they don't get owned as much).
Here is a counter point to that explanation.
Pubs are not very difficult to dominate now. A lot of pubs use the same "lab rat" strategies over and over (mind you that some of these players claim "infinite strategies"), and if one team is aggressive enough they can easily over come the other in most games.
I'm sure many people can agree that pub play has degraded down significantly, and if your friends can't compete against that style of play now, the new version is not going to help them out at all. A terrible player is a terrible player man, and I would find it personally embarassing that the only reason I can compete against good players is because of a new version that dumbed it down to cater to the lack of talent. Of course most players would just lie to themselves when they preformed better temporarily, and actually believe they got better based on their own merit.
Then what will happen is that previously talented players will emerge successful again because they will find the querks in the game that will enable them to achieve dominance in a version that was designed to take away some of their talents.
And again, the cycle of whines/complains based on personal anecdotes and that are non-statistical in nature will be heard by the developers a in another year or so another version will be released to cater to that again will just wind up being dominated a few weeks after the new version is out.
Jmms is right, balane the game, not the players. Dumbing down the game will only cause more players to leave then join up.
NS was already dumbed down - it's called combat. I'd wager NS2 will be just a fancy version it - aka combat with structures.
NS simply still has too many trapdoor puzzles to attract a significant audience.
I'll explain "trapdoor" because it's a common acedemia term that's overloaded too often to distiguish. The example I'll use is a "trapdoor" testing question: it's a question that's only easy to answer once you know what the anwser is - which is universally bad for any test question. "How do you exit a room with no doors or windows? Use the trapdoor." In computer science, the term has at least 2 meanings: 1 being a one-way hash, the other being a small and uncomplex amount of code that takes a significantly long time learn how to do [the Win32 API being a prime example]. The latter is my meaning.
In NS, the old fade blink is a prime example. It's easy to blink and conserve engergy (and even easier to script) once you know where the trapdoor is - an extremely quick tap of attack combined with point at the correct up angle. For the old lerk, 'cacking is just 2/3jump combined with a high m_pitch or overall sensitivity. There's no intuitive way to get from A to B without knowing about B in the first place and we're talking about the primary locomotion of a lifeform being a trapdoor (insert bunny hopping here too - even though it's not easy).
<!--quoteo(post=1603388:date=Feb 1 2007, 08:15 PM:name=ultranewb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ultranewb @ Feb 1 2007, 08:15 PM) [snapback]1603388[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> NS was already dumbed down - it's called combat. I'd wager NS2 will be just a fancy version it - aka combat with structures.
NS simply still has too many trapdoor puzzles to attract a significant audience.
I'll explain "trapdoor" because it's a common acedemia term that's overloaded too often to distiguish. The example I'll use is a "trapdoor" testing question: it's a question that's only easy to answer once you know what the anwser is - which is universally bad for any test question. "How do you exit a room with no doors or windows? Use the trapdoor." In computer science, the term has at least 2 meanings: 1 being a one-way hash, the other being a small and uncomplex amount of code that takes a significantly long time learn how to do [the Win32 API being a prime example]. The latter is my meaning.
In NS, the old fade blink is a prime example. It's easy to blink and conserve engergy (and even easier to script) once you know where the trapdoor is - an extremely quick tap of attack combined with point at the correct up angle. For the old lerk, 'cacking is just 2/3jump combined with a high m_pitch or overall sensitivity. There's no intuitive way to get from A to B without knowing about B in the first place and we're talking about the primary locomotion of a lifeform being a trapdoor (insert bunny hopping here too - even though it's not easy). <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hrmm, could use a better cathphrase than trapdoor. One with more semantic recognition to gamers.
remember the OLD blink? insta-teleport? God, would we have a s***show if that was still around. Sorry for the derail but its all gotten derailed.
So, to add to the 'ns is dumbed down by CO', again, just call it Training Mode and everyone will be happy <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Comments
He wants what it is now and forever. That's why fades and lerks are changing in the new version.
NS needs more players and making the game easier will solve the problem.
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NS is not going to get a new influx of players because the fade and lerk changed. It is too late in the development cycle to make such radical changes.
If they wanted to make those changes, they should have done it in the 2.01 era. because each patch after that despite the game becoming "better" statistically has significantly less people playing the game than the version before.
So at that rate, one can expect the next patch to yield more results that actually push people away from the game.
NS is not going to get a new influx of players because the fade and lerk changed. It is too late in the development cycle to make such radical changes.
If they wanted to make those changes, they should have done it in the 2.01 era. because each patch after that despite the game becoming "better" statistically has significantly less people playing the game than the version before.
So at that rate, one can expect the next patch to yield more results that actually push people away from the game.
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I agree, its a old mod..just look forward to ns2
NS is not going to get a new influx of players because the fade and lerk changed. It is too late in the development cycle to make such radical changes.
If they wanted to make those changes, they should have done it in the 2.01 era. because each patch after that despite the game becoming "better" statistically has significantly less people playing the game than the version before.
So at that rate, one can expect the next patch to yield more results that actually push people away from the game.
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Of course it's not. The only thing those changes did was nerf the uber-fade/lerks. Fade and lerking (NS invents words yay) are still challenging for the common player.
What I see from my friends that have tried NS is that they quit after giving up against some of the more skilled players.
I think that cycle has applied to every version of NS.
But if the game were to be easier, perhaps new people would be more inclined to continue, if they believed they had a chance against these better players.
Right now i can see many faults in my play and there is lots that can be improved but there just is no point because noone is more than marginaly better than me, i find this kind of sad.
Of course it's not. The only thing those changes did was nerf the uber-fade/lerks. Fade and lerking (NS invents words yay) are still challenging for the common player.
What I see from my friends that have tried NS is that they quit after giving up against some of the more skilled players.
I think that cycle has applied to every version of NS.
But if the game were to be easier, perhaps new people would be more inclined to continue, if they believed they had a chance against these better players.
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Sorry sir, I don't think making NS easier at this stage of the game is going to help the population out. Most pepople who have played this game once already will most likely not return. The amount of players that will be lost to the actual changes will be significantly out numbered by the ones who will come back, it has happened since 2.01.
VMS hit the nail on the head, there are no real rewards for being a top player in Natural Selection, ergo this is no reason to sharpen his skills because he is already dominant.
There used to be some benefits to being a competitive player, such as community recognition, servers that would cater to competitive players, etc.. Now there is little to no benefit to play this competitively because CAL is no longer around. Sure there are the ENSL and ANSL, but in reality these leagues pale in comparison to CAL. I respect that competitive community for continuing their efforts, but in all honestly anyone who wants to compete at a high level may want to learn a new game as there are no longer any real benefits of being an excellent NS player.
i LOVE kicking peoples ###### in ns games. it feels great. its the basic "im better than you" feeling, and unless you are joining an ns game saying "oh man im gonna CHAT with people!", tehn you are playing for the same reason, even though the degree in which may be different form person to person.
although it doesnt seem to be as fun anymore for reasons unknown to me.
Sorry sir, I don't think making NS easier at this stage of the game is going to help the population out. Most pepople who have played this game once already will most likely not return. The amount of players that will be lost to the actual changes will be significantly out numbered by the ones who will come back, it has happened since 2.01.
VMS hit the nail on the head, there are no real rewards for being a top player in Natural Selection, ergo this is no reason to sharpen his skills because he is already dominant.
There used to be some benefits to being a competitive player, such as community recognition, servers that would cater to competitive players, etc.. Now there is little to no benefit to play this competitively because CAL is no longer around. Sure there are the ENSL and ANSL, but in reality these leagues pale in comparison to CAL. I respect that competitive community for continuing their efforts, but in all honestly anyone who wants to compete at a high level may want to learn a new game as there are no longer any real benefits of being an excellent NS player.
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I think making the game easier at this point WILL help the population out. Thanks for your theories, but I believe that players that will see NS for the first-time in the future will have an easier time adapting to the game, then learning from the rough curve we have already.
The benefits of being a competitive player is that you are good as in you are WINNING. There is no more, nor should there be any more to that. Now if the game was made easier, the lesser players could be closer to the level where competitive players are and we'd see more even games. But I guess there's a problem with games with balanced teams.
I think making the game easier at this point WILL help the population out. Thanks for your theories, but I believe that players that will see NS for the first-time in the future will have an easier time adapting to the game, then learning from the rough curve we have already.
The benefits of being a competitive player is that you are good as in you are WINNING. There is no more, nor should there be any more to that. Now if the game was made easier, the lesser players could be closer to the level where competitive players are and we'd see more even games. But I guess there's a problem with games with balanced teams.
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Balance the game, not the players. It's not the game's fault if you get scraped every time you touch anything competitive <img src="http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/6286/tardwg7.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
PS: "Thanks for your theories" <-- ironic that you would say this, judging by your posts in the discussions forum
Like it or not, a majoriety of any game's playerbase are casual players.
That said, a game which doesn't appeal to competative gamers isn't good either.
CS for instance has a good solution to this dilemma.
Headshots are essentially the equalizer that keeps things fun for both sides.
The trick is how you appeal to both casual and intense gamers at the same time.
Aka. Make it Easy to start, while also Hard to master.
_
That said, when it comes to older games.
Usually it's best not to try to dramatically alter them.
Since the main thing keeping people around is because they like the game how it is.
They have a sentimental attachment to it.
Change it too much, remove some the aspects they are most attached to
and all you can expect is for the playerbase to shrink.
Since you can't expect much playerbase growth to replace it.
It's like performing massive operations on a old dying cancer patient.
The cure can be worse than the disease.
Balance the game, not the players. It's not the game's fault if you get scraped every time you touch anything competitive <img src="http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/6286/tardwg7.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
PS: "Thanks for your theories" <-- ironic that you would say this, judging by your posts in the discussions forum
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So it's the game's fault and then it's my fault.
Obviously, the game is the only thing we can change here. I'm not going to waste my time making a post to vet players saying "PLZ PLAY WORSE!".
I don't think it's ironic because we all have our theories as I have mine. Firewater retorted with "sorry, sir", but my goal was not to change his beliefs, but rather state mine, which he has done as well. So I don't write what I do to change what you think. I just say it because that's what I think. I don't eat cereal to make you do the same, I do it because I have chosen to.
I think the game can still be challenging, even if the learning curve on reflex-based activities is dumbed down. Then it would come down to choosing what to do at the right time, more than how well you have the reflexes to aim or fade, something like chess.
I think the game can still be challenging, even if the learning curve on reflex-based activities is dumbed down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But often with that side of the spectrum, people tend to confuse
Difficulty of understanding the game
Versus genuine strategic difficulty.
_
And as mentioned above, a game thats hemoraging playerbase that lacks solid prospects of "new blood"
Is not the place to be making dramatic changes.
So this is more of a discussion about NS2 than NS1 I would imagine.
Or just arguement for arguements sake...
Huh? How about CS?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CS for instance has a good solution to this dilemma.
Headshots are essentially the equalizer that keeps things fun for both sides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What?
Anyways...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
So it's the game's fault and then it's my fault.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When did I say this? I said that you shouldn't blame the game for your own faults.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not going to waste my time making a post to vet players saying "PLZ PLAY WORSE!".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aren't you doing a variant of this by making a post to the devs asking for an easier game?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think it's ironic because we all have our theories as I have mine. Firewater retorted with "sorry, sir", but my goal was not to change his beliefs, but rather state mine, which he has done as well. So I don't write what I do to change what you think. I just say it because that's what I think. I don't eat cereal to make you do the same, I do it because I have chosen to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<u>What?</u> Are you new to the internet? You don't even make sense...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the game can still be challenging, even if the learning curve on reflex-based activities is dumbed down. Then it would come down to choosing what to do at the right time, more than how well you have the reflexes to aim or fade, something like chess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The most popular FPS game in the world (CS) is also probably the most open-ended game (especially pertaining to "choosing what to do at the right time". I could delve into this in further detail, but you wouldn't understand.
I feel that I am trekking into a circular argument, as I suspect you're just going to try and jam me with some seriously fvcked up logic. Normally I'd exercise my almost non-existent self-restraint in this very situation, but eventually you (and the rest of your kind) will brute force ###### idea after ###### idea onto the face of the earth and my life will be perpetually ruined. Why are you trying to ruin my life?
I believe that the game could be easier to accomodate players from both pub and vet backgrounds. Don't confuse the term blaming with what's already happening.
Choosing what to do at the right time could hardly apply to CS. Spot enemy, aim, control fire. C'mon don't make up some BS that CS involves surgical skills. That's why they don't slap the strategy sticker on that game. NS however, is supposedly a fusion of "strategic and reflex" game types, yet most people would agree that the game as of now is currently a twitchfest.
I'm here to say what I think. How you respond is entirely up to you. If you don't like being angry, simple, don't choose to be.
(Oh, and your "waa waa CS is just aiming" dumpster-of-a-proposition has an obvious counterexample: you could run around with an aimbot and a pro player would still defeat you with ease)
But often with that side of the spectrum, people tend to confuse
Difficulty of understanding the game
Versus genuine strategic difficulty.
_
And as mentioned above, a game thats hemoraging playerbase that lacks solid prospects of "new blood"
Is not the place to be making dramatic changes.
So this is more of a discussion about NS2 than NS1 I would imagine.
Or just arguement for arguements sake...
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You aren't
writing ######
poetry
Huh? How about CS?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How many pub servers does it have?
How many competative league servers does it have?
Compare.
Now, are you telling me CS was designed to exclude casual gamers?
Choosing what to do at the right time could hardly apply to CS. Spot enemy, aim, control fire. C'mon don't make up some BS that CS involves surgical skills. That's why they don't slap the strategy sticker on that game. NS however, is supposedly a fusion of "strategic and reflex" game types, yet most people would agree that the game as of now is currently a twitchfest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you have got to be joking. cs is infinitely more advanced in terms of strategy, tactics, perception of the game than ns is or will ever be. not only because they are different games, but because professional competition has taken cs so much further.
you probably dont ever think about what ns would be like if it had 2 million players and status as the #1 cpl game.
btw: ns, as of now, is a joke. you can do anything you want and screw strategy if you have enough personal skill. but thats not the game's fault, its the lack of competition.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, are you telling me CS was designed to exclude casual gamers?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
cs was designed to exclude nobody
There are no truely good NS players left, even the veterans of the past like wltrs and Fana are a pale shadow of past form in comparasion, and that being said they're still more than capable of decimating the remaining joke teams. Flatline are a #3 team in EUNS and whilst I salute them for their continued improvements they wouldn't be if we hadn't seen the continued detoriation of the competitive scene; even in this joke of a scene they fail to win anything. Like pantsu said, top players can maintain that level with miminal practise.
NS doesn't allow players to develop their skills and strategies as much as the professional competition of CS does. This is a game with huge potential to be as indepth and complex as anything but it never will be. It's unfortunate that the current version of NS allows for some amazing tactical verstality and yet because of the dwindled player base there'll not be extensive experimentation, there is no competition and demand for it.
This topic is not meant for comparing CS to NS.
If you want to discuss this, go make a new thread elsewhere, like the off-topic forum
- JonR -
How many pub servers does it have?
How many competative league servers does it have?
Compare.
Now, are you telling me CS was designed to exclude casual gamers?
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So now you're determining how large and successful a game is by the number of servers? If I wrote a program that spawned 1,000,000 NS servers, NS would then become the most popular FPS game in the world! What a great idea!
CS wasn't designed to exclude everyone. When did I say that? CS is <i>extremely</i> open ended for the players. I also really appreciate how you just say that CS is merely "aiming". Man, I can't believe the NBA exists, basketball is just throwing a ball into a hoop!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do you all keep turning this into a discussion about whether NS or CS is better?
This topic is not meant for comparing CS to NS.
If you want to discuss this, go make a new thread elsewhere, like the off-topic forum<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This CS discussion is relevant and pertinent to the thread as we are discussing what makes games successful (well, actually, it's more like I'm telling Greyflcn and Smoodcroozn, and they just aren't capable of comprehending the facts). Interestingly enough, the original purpose of this thread was to discuss a survey that had at least one biased question*, but I do agree, a mod/someone should split this discussion into another thread.
*Apparently one of the questions on the survey asked the respondent to give their opinion on game/round-time length, and the answers were something along the line of "It's okay as it is, I prefer longer games, I prefer much longer games" etc. From what I was told, there was not even one option for "I prefer shorter games".
So now you're determining how large and successful a game is by the number of servers? If I wrote a program that spawned 1,000,000 NS servers, NS would then become the most popular FPS game in the world! What a great idea!
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Nope, however number of servers tends to be proportional to number of players.
<!--quoteo(post=1603344:date=Feb 1 2007, 03:57 PM:name=Jmmsbnd007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jmmsbnd007 @ Feb 1 2007, 03:57 PM) [snapback]1603344[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Grey: "Well, so far no multiplayer FPS game has been successful based purely on it's intense gamer community."
James: "What about CS? Huh?"
Grey: "Now, are you telling me CS was designed to exclude casual gamers?"
James: "CS wasn't designed to exclude everyone. When did I say that?"
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<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
Nope, however number of servers tends to be proportional to number of players.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
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And you also can't use the number of servers to determine the size of the competitive community for a particular game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Grey: "Well, so far no multiplayer FPS game has been successful based purely on it's intense gamer community."
James: "What about CS? Huh?"
Grey: "Now, are you telling me CS was designed to exclude casual gamers?"
James: "CS wasn't designed to exclude everyone. When did I say that?"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You made the proposition that no multiplayer FPS game has been successful based on its gamer community. I don't really know what to say here. Perhaps you meant to say "competitive" instead of "intense"? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Although pubbers make up the vast majority of all game[r]s, competitive matchplay gets televised on DirectTV; whereas pubbers fill servers, pad stats, and play for fun (or whatever they play for <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />)
There is a flip side however, the reason why a lot of games stay around is because of a thriving competitive scene. Counter Strike came out when I was around 15, I believe, I am now 24. The public scene drove the game, but the competitive scene keeps it alive because there can be money to be made through tournaments and what not. A lot of players are wannabes, and will never adjust their mindset to that of a champion, but those who can and currently do now, can make a decent living off playing video games.
A great game needs both in terms of its success in $$$$ and the longevity of the game.
NS used to be a great game. But regardless of the changes every version since 2.01 has dropped the playerbase significantly. The playerbase is so terrible now that CAL had to drop the NS division.
There are not going to be any significant new numbers despite what the pathetic anecdotal evidence (well my friends would play if they don't get owned as much).
Here is a counter point to that explanation.
Pubs are not very difficult to dominate now. A lot of pubs use the same "lab rat" strategies over and over (mind you that some of these players claim "infinite strategies"), and if one team is aggressive enough they can easily over come the other in most games.
I'm sure many people can agree that pub play has degraded down significantly, and if your friends can't compete against that style of play now, the new version is not going to help them out at all. A terrible player is a terrible player man, and I would find it personally embarassing that the only reason I can compete against good players is because of a new version that dumbed it down to cater to the lack of talent. Of course most players would just lie to themselves when they preformed better temporarily, and actually believe they got better based on their own merit.
Then what will happen is that previously talented players will emerge successful again because they will find the querks in the game that will enable them to achieve dominance in a version that was designed to take away some of their talents.
And again, the cycle of whines/complains based on personal anecdotes and that are non-statistical in nature will be heard by the developers a in another year or so another version will be released to cater to that again will just wind up being dominated a few weeks after the new version is out.
Jmms is right, balane the game, not the players. Dumbing down the game will only cause more players to leave then join up.
NS simply still has too many trapdoor puzzles to attract a significant audience.
I'll explain "trapdoor" because it's a common acedemia term that's overloaded too often to distiguish. The example I'll use is a "trapdoor" testing question: it's a question that's only easy to answer once you know what the anwser is - which is universally bad for any test question. "How do you exit a room with no doors or windows? Use the trapdoor." In computer science, the term has at least 2 meanings: 1 being a one-way hash, the other being a small and uncomplex amount of code that takes a significantly long time learn how to do [the Win32 API being a prime example]. The latter is my meaning.
In NS, the old fade blink is a prime example. It's easy to blink and conserve engergy (and even easier to script) once you know where the trapdoor is - an extremely quick tap of attack combined with point at the correct up angle. For the old lerk, 'cacking is just 2/3jump combined with a high m_pitch or overall sensitivity. There's no intuitive way to get from A to B without knowing about B in the first place and we're talking about the primary locomotion of a lifeform being a trapdoor (insert bunny hopping here too - even though it's not easy).
NS was already dumbed down - it's called combat. I'd wager NS2 will be just a fancy version it - aka combat with structures.
NS simply still has too many trapdoor puzzles to attract a significant audience.
I'll explain "trapdoor" because it's a common acedemia term that's overloaded too often to distiguish. The example I'll use is a "trapdoor" testing question: it's a question that's only easy to answer once you know what the anwser is - which is universally bad for any test question. "How do you exit a room with no doors or windows? Use the trapdoor." In computer science, the term has at least 2 meanings: 1 being a one-way hash, the other being a small and uncomplex amount of code that takes a significantly long time learn how to do [the Win32 API being a prime example]. The latter is my meaning.
In NS, the old fade blink is a prime example. It's easy to blink and conserve engergy (and even easier to script) once you know where the trapdoor is - an extremely quick tap of attack combined with point at the correct up angle. For the old lerk, 'cacking is just 2/3jump combined with a high m_pitch or overall sensitivity. There's no intuitive way to get from A to B without knowing about B in the first place and we're talking about the primary locomotion of a lifeform being a trapdoor (insert bunny hopping here too - even though it's not easy).
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Hrmm, could use a better cathphrase than trapdoor.
One with more semantic recognition to gamers.
How about: "Glitch oriented gameplay"
So, to add to the 'ns is dumbed down by CO', again, just call it Training Mode and everyone will be happy <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Bot servers, and Solo Training Maps are much more effective.