me i am a place first in sulk leap range use a progress diagonal on a cerve or bend, also have a mc or two, and ill make a little gorntlet past my gate,
ill guard said area as a sulk till i get enough effective res to drop them in a dent, ill stay there as a gorge and it will seal off most of the map allow my team usaly two free res nodes to cap which they never cap i have to,
yet ill still get rines running jumping past my OC's then geting med spams, while they look vigorously for a courner to hide in for two second to get two effective med drops before continuing, the gorntlet provents this, or at leasts makes the com waste another 20 res on spams, me now i am near energy less and cant go after them for fear of leaveing my WOL ether for the WOLs safety or for mine, i instantly report the rine jumping my WOL that theres a phasegate going up in our hive, it doesnt matter its to late they have already beconed and are pouring thru
ill get that happen 1 in three maps, 2 out of three maps ill get GL spamed, calling for back up before the first GL detonates on my WOL, or they will know my defences are there and tottaly avoid me for the whole map ill only ever see the first rine who reports it then i wont see another rine all map, usaly force me to move a great distance build a new WOL and try my best as a sulk to patrol both of them or asa gorge if they are close by
ether way thats a lot of res wasted, but its still fun so i keep doing it
Watch some demos, they can be found on <a href="http://ensl.zanith.nl/index.php?view=demos" target="_blank">http://ensl.zanith.nl/index.php?view=demos</a> for reference.
------
Here is a short list of things to keep in mind when deciding for or against using a player's resources on OCs at the second hive location: + Hive room location and structure (maintenence is often not a good place for OCs at four to five minutes while computer core is (ns_eclipse)) + Usual play style, strenghts and weaknesses of of your opponant, and tactical inclination of the commander + Marine resource and technology status + Map control situation (PGs, whether you use SCs instead of MCs or DCs etc) + Extreme variations in alien RfK situation
And the use of OCs: + Can help slow down/avert hive pushes + Can force sieges + A way of quickly making use of any resource reserves the team can have if need be (an alternative to investing in future res flow or saving for high cost life forms) + In long games - can help in maintaining static fronts to allow for pushes on marine phase gates and resource towers - can provide fire power assistance and time/ammunition sinks when other alien team needs are filled (basically a gorge res sink)
Also, the reason why OCs should NOT be made more effective or be removed from the game: + A game needs choices that are not clear cut or instantly obvious to - avoid extremely static roles - avoid the lack of need for variations in execution - make sure the ability to adapt to certain teams' strenghts and weaknesses can impact the course of round - incite a certain amount of unpredictability
As long as OCs remain useful only in certain niche roles it will be used regularly and will affect the gameplay positively, as opposed to if it was a steady part of an alien round tactics. The importance of units and buildings used only under certain circumstances should be obvious if studying the meta-game; without niche units the ability to surprise or trick your opponant would be greatly diminished and game play would quickly grow stale.
In 'real' RTS games niche roles of buildings and units can be maintained through the use of hard counters, but this is unpreferable in FPS games for obvious reasons. Instead other methods need to be used. OCs fill their niche role not by actually countering any specific marine unit, or the ability to shut down a front completely. They remain useful by being high resource intensive units in comparison to their abilities and strenghts, but with a relatively low absolute resource cost (one third of a lerk, one fifth of a fade or slightly less than one seventh of an onos) while still being able to directly contributing to the alien game (compared to resource towers which I consider indirectly supporive). Do you want extra help right now, or can you survive until you can afford to upgrade the player?
No that's what YOU want, and that's the point you wish this thread had and would accomplish. I do not agree, nor do several others who have posted earlier in the thread.
unless your team is hemorrhaging res, its better spent on upgrade chambers, lerk or fade. This is, of course, assuming the player has a skill level high enough to effectively use it. Even if they don't, the only way to learn is to play. While you bring good points up about oc's usefulness, they still cost too much. A lerk is a much better, mobile, anti marine than oc's, which can be shot down by two marines with shotguns while only getting one shot off.
An issue with 5 res OCs. Gorge rushes would be able to place 3 OCs each with the default 25 res. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hive5.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::hive::" border="0" alt="hive5.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hive5.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::hive::" border="0" alt="hive5.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hive5.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::hive::" border="0" alt="hive5.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" />
It all depends on the situation. And theres nothing wrong with static defenses being primarily used in mid game. It only makes sense that you want the most initial tech you can get (upgrade your troops as much as possible to win as many early battles as possible, to then secure your economical base for the rest of the game).
BUT... there are definitely, DEFINITELY uses for them early game, given the right strat. One of my favs that i tried a few months back (and have since seen a few people copy), is on ns_veil. Rush East Junction immediately (the crossroads south of topo at the double siege), and get at least one gorge with at least one skulk. Skulk(s) cover and para, gorge puts up either an OC immediately or an MC. If you have a second gorge, an MC would usually be the second chamber dropped there. Even with only 1 oc, a gorge with any level of adren, and a skulk covering, you can hold that <i>critical</i> location for the early game easy, and then within a minute or so have enough for a second OC or whatever. Bam, you've secured the entire right side of the map.
This strat is the easiest to pull off if you have cargo, its less useful if you have pipe, and its the most difficult but absolutely the most useful if you have sub. ANd it only takes 1-2 gorges and a skulk for cover. It faisl sometimes, but more often than not it works, at least in skilled pubs.
Rine's turrets turn immediately, almost instantenously (sp). Their accuracy is pinpoint near-to-deadly.
Kharaa's OC spikes can easily be dodged, do require some time to "turn" and can be easily destroyed by shooting at its 'edges'. The dmg and rof is okay for me. I usually try to do an OC-Network so that two or more would dart at the same time, rather than having them rowed/stacked. The least reason for giving them a higher "turn" rate would be that their spikes are sphere-spred all over it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Just mah 2 res <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
OCs have 2 problems: there low to start firing on enemies and they don't warn aliens player when they fire.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Otherwise they will only act as a delay untill the team can arrive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not always true, marines can ignore it to go in a better place and put a PG.
<!--quoteo(post=1597417:date=Jan 10 2007, 10:13 PM:name=MrBananaMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBananaMan @ Jan 10 2007, 10:13 PM) [snapback]1597417[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> of course it is useful in the way you said. but the problem is having the amount of res for an oc, instead of getting an rt, upgrade chamber or hive.
what we are saying is that oc's are <i>usually</i> icing on the cake. speaking about all of this makes me want to gorge and set up some oc's early game and see waht happens. starting steam in 5. edit: meh, 2 games and never got a chance to lay oc's. we needed chambers. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wait until you get the map ns_lost and drop them in beta deck.
Its true though. While the OCs are fun to knife skilfully without taking a hit, it doesnt really make sense given their model design (whereas it makes sense for turrets). Its a fun little-known tactic, that i'd be fine without. But keep in mind that its only a 'flaw' when its one OC by itself agaisnt a skilled player, who could take it out far more safely by just shooting its edge.
Also, the sometimes-slow reaction time of OCs is kinda fun. Gives them a feel of being their own entities. And turrets DO NOT aim instantly, they still take plenty of time to turn if they're facing away, just like OCs.
Boring to play against static defenses? Well its also boring to play against Cara Onos or good Cel/Regen/Meta fades when you dont have guns, so should we remove them too? Not at all. Each has its place, and personally, i find it great fun to have OCs in the mix.
PrefixÉirinn go BráchJoin Date: 2006-12-31Member: 59353Members, Constellation
I agree to that, should be auto turn and shoot <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" />
Also ocs are a good way for new players to stand a chance against moderate ones, they wont be able to skulk never mind lerk etc, so ocs are a great way of giving them time to leanr in a mpa.
another option would be an automatic ic lag time before they shoot. Maybe just one second or so. Instant shooting OCs would be a bit much, imo. It would be more fun to know that you have a small amount of leeway. Then again, the current OCs are the same, except that leeway ranges from instant to about 2 seconds (but really breaks against players circling the OC at the proper rate). Hmm.
They dont actually 'miss' right now. Its just that they shoot projectiles, which take time to get to the target. They aim ahead perfectly, so if you're running, they'll hit you. But if you're running and you stop after they've shot, they'll miss. That's good.
It sounds like the consensus would be on an immediate turn rate, with a random of, say, 0.5 - 1.5 seconds delay before firing? This would fix the silly exploit of walking around them (and never being hit), while also keeping the 'organic' feel to their response rate.
no I'm pretty sure OCs are hitscan even though they shoot a projectile it is purely for special effects. it's just like the lerk spike. they are both hitscan weapons
immediate the turn rate? there should be no turn rate. the spikes are all over the outside of the oc. they come out from the ball on top in whichever direction the marine is. there hsould be nothing to turn.
Kill4thrills, if you time it right, you can just strafe back and forth and never be hit, even though the OC will keep shooting at you. Its definitely a projectile you can dodge.
Banana, you're right, but that would take a substantial recoding. OC's are programmed like the turrets, in that they have turn rates and directions they face. I havnt seen the code, but this is how they act. To just make the turn rate really fast would have the same desired effect, but be significantly less work (i'm assuming... it sounds like recoding vs changing a number in balance.txt). The rest of the change (random response time or whatever) would be a pocket of work itself, as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1597813:date=Jan 11 2007, 10:23 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Jan 11 2007, 10:23 PM) [snapback]1597813[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Boring to play against static defenses? Well its also boring to play against Cara Onos or good Cel/Regen/Meta fades when you dont have guns, so should we remove them too? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's your team's fault for not being teched up enough by then.
Even when properly teched, fighting a wall of OCs, or a turret farm is really boring.
OCs and turrets have their uses, just they cost too little.
they really need to keep that first inital delay, wiht out it SC oc's will never get a kill, nothing mroe fun that watchign a rine run into a invisably lined coridor with out a thought to be raped by OC's, he cant turn back he cant keep going forwards, if they instantly shoot hes going to duck back easly and the OC wont get a kill at all from any rine, tho after the intial delay they need to consistantly acquire a target and instantly put a round into it, a slightly a very slight increase to projectile speed would be nice but for enough to quwel the OC rushers good, those ballsy ###### know they can dodge a entire wall of OC fire and gorge spit and still unload a 12 gague in a gorges face
Remove turrets & oc's from the game, maybe then people would learn to play the game instead of wasting everyones time by turtling up. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1598304:date=Jan 13 2007, 12:19 PM:name=Ots)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ots @ Jan 13 2007, 12:19 PM) [snapback]1598304[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Remove turrets & oc's from the game, maybe then people would learn to play the game instead of wasting everyones time by turtling up. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and while you're at it, let's just also remove siege cannons, commanders and defense chambers. Hell, why not just remove all structures and give people upgrades in a points system?
<!--quoteo(post=1598322:date=Jan 13 2007, 08:19 AM:name=Johnie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Johnie @ Jan 13 2007, 08:19 AM) [snapback]1598322[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Yes, and while you're at it, let's just also remove siege cannons, commanders and defense chambers. Hell, why not just remove all structures and give people upgrades in a points system?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i have a question thats maybe somehow related to this thread: as its obvious that the oc needs to turn in order to fire, then when you drop one is it predetermined which way it's "pointing", or is it just random (or does it maybe slowly turn around constantly)
Probably random, like structure orientation(if you drop two proto factories they wont face the same way). Maybe I'm misremembering, but after first being spotted, OCs seem very quick to fire if you show your face again, even if you wait for several seconds, so that probably means they don't turn automatically like turrets.
<!--quoteo(post=1598387:date=Jan 13 2007, 09:24 PM:name=1stdayplaying)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(1stdayplaying @ Jan 13 2007, 09:24 PM) [snapback]1598387[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Remove OCs, Onoses and Carapace, delay fades to like 15mins along with the second hive, but also delay marine tech. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> you can't be serious?
Make the OCs do something other than the pathetic damage and walling.
Look at warcraft 3. You know those ice towers? EXACTLY. Reduce OC damage. However, add a slow effect to the projectile. Now it's more effective against marine advancement, rather than being negated by medpack spam.
Comments
ill guard said area as a sulk till i get enough effective res to drop them in a dent, ill stay there as a gorge and it will seal off most of the map allow my team usaly two free res nodes to cap which they never cap i have to,
yet ill still get rines running jumping past my OC's then geting med spams, while they look vigorously for a courner to hide in for two second to get two effective med drops before continuing, the gorntlet provents this, or at leasts makes the com waste another 20 res on spams, me now i am near energy less and cant go after them for fear of leaveing my WOL ether for the WOLs safety or for mine, i instantly report the rine jumping my WOL that theres a phasegate going up in our hive, it doesnt matter its to late they have already beconed and are pouring thru
ill get that happen 1 in three maps, 2 out of three maps ill get GL spamed, calling for back up before the first GL detonates on my WOL, or they will know my defences are there and tottaly avoid me for the whole map ill only ever see the first rine who reports it then i wont see another rine all map, usaly force me to move a great distance build a new WOL and try my best as a sulk to patrol both of them or asa gorge if they are close by
ether way thats a lot of res wasted, but its still fun so i keep doing it
------
Watch some demos, they can be found on <a href="http://ensl.zanith.nl/index.php?view=demos" target="_blank">http://ensl.zanith.nl/index.php?view=demos</a> for reference.
------
Here is a short list of things to keep in mind when deciding for or against using a player's resources on OCs at the second hive location:
+ Hive room location and structure (maintenence is often not a good place for OCs at four to five minutes while computer core is (ns_eclipse))
+ Usual play style, strenghts and weaknesses of of your opponant, and tactical inclination of the commander
+ Marine resource and technology status
+ Map control situation (PGs, whether you use SCs instead of MCs or DCs etc)
+ Extreme variations in alien RfK situation
And the use of OCs:
+ Can help slow down/avert hive pushes
+ Can force sieges
+ A way of quickly making use of any resource reserves the team can have if need be (an alternative to investing in future res flow or saving for high cost life forms)
+ In long games
- can help in maintaining static fronts to allow for pushes on marine phase gates and resource towers
- can provide fire power assistance and time/ammunition sinks when other alien team needs are filled (basically a gorge res sink)
Also, the reason why OCs should NOT be made more effective or be removed from the game:
+ A game needs choices that are not clear cut or instantly obvious to
- avoid extremely static roles
- avoid the lack of need for variations in execution
- make sure the ability to adapt to certain teams' strenghts and weaknesses can impact the course of round
- incite a certain amount of unpredictability
As long as OCs remain useful only in certain niche roles it will be used regularly and will affect the gameplay positively, as opposed to if it was a steady part of an alien round tactics. The importance of units and buildings used only under certain circumstances should be obvious if studying the meta-game; without niche units the ability to surprise or trick your opponant would be greatly diminished and game play would quickly grow stale.
In 'real' RTS games niche roles of buildings and units can be maintained through the use of hard counters, but this is unpreferable in FPS games for obvious reasons. Instead other methods need to be used. OCs fill their niche role not by actually countering any specific marine unit, or the ability to shut down a front completely. They remain useful by being high resource intensive units in comparison to their abilities and strenghts, but with a relatively low absolute resource cost (one third of a lerk, one fifth of a fade or slightly less than one seventh of an onos) while still being able to directly contributing to the alien game (compared to resource towers which I consider indirectly supporive). Do you want extra help right now, or can you survive until you can afford to upgrade the player?
Gorge rushes would be able to place 3 OCs each with the default 25 res.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hive5.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::hive::" border="0" alt="hive5.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hive5.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::hive::" border="0" alt="hive5.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hive5.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::hive::" border="0" alt="hive5.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" />
BUT... there are definitely, DEFINITELY uses for them early game, given the right strat. One of my favs that i tried a few months back (and have since seen a few people copy), is on ns_veil. Rush East Junction immediately (the crossroads south of topo at the double siege), and get at least one gorge with at least one skulk. Skulk(s) cover and para, gorge puts up either an OC immediately or an MC. If you have a second gorge, an MC would usually be the second chamber dropped there. Even with only 1 oc, a gorge with any level of adren, and a skulk covering, you can hold that <i>critical</i> location for the early game easy, and then within a minute or so have enough for a second OC or whatever. Bam, you've secured the entire right side of the map.
This strat is the easiest to pull off if you have cargo, its less useful if you have pipe, and its the most difficult but absolutely the most useful if you have sub. ANd it only takes 1-2 gorges and a skulk for cover. It faisl sometimes, but more often than not it works, at least in skilled pubs.
Rine's turrets turn immediately, almost instantenously (sp).
Their accuracy is pinpoint near-to-deadly.
Kharaa's OC spikes can easily be dodged, do require some time to "turn" and can be easily destroyed by shooting at its 'edges'.
The dmg and rof is okay for me. I usually try to do an OC-Network so that two or more would dart at the same time, rather than having them rowed/stacked.
The least reason for giving them a higher "turn" rate would be that their spikes are sphere-spred all over it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Just mah 2 res <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
$parki
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Otherwise they will only act as a delay untill the team can arrive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not always true, marines can ignore it to go in a better place and put a PG.
of course it is useful in the way you said. but the problem is having the amount of res for an oc, instead of getting an rt, upgrade chamber or hive.
what we are saying is that oc's are <i>usually</i> icing on the cake.
speaking about all of this makes me want to gorge and set up some oc's early game and see waht happens. starting steam in 5.
edit: meh, 2 games and never got a chance to lay oc's. we needed chambers.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait until you get the map ns_lost and drop them in beta deck.
Also, the sometimes-slow reaction time of OCs is kinda fun. Gives them a feel of being their own entities. And turrets DO NOT aim instantly, they still take plenty of time to turn if they're facing away, just like OCs.
Boring to play against static defenses? Well its also boring to play against Cara Onos or good Cel/Regen/Meta fades when you dont have guns, so should we remove them too? Not at all. Each has its place, and personally, i find it great fun to have OCs in the mix.
I mean hell, it is a sphere with spikes on all sides.
It shouldn't need to spend time turning.
Also ocs are a good way for new players to stand a chance against moderate ones, they wont be able to skulk never mind lerk etc, so ocs are a great way of giving them time to leanr in a mpa.
It sounds like the consensus would be on an immediate turn rate, with a random of, say, 0.5 - 1.5 seconds delay before firing? This would fix the silly exploit of walking around them (and never being hit), while also keeping the 'organic' feel to their response rate.
Agree/disagree?
Banana, you're right, but that would take a substantial recoding. OC's are programmed like the turrets, in that they have turn rates and directions they face. I havnt seen the code, but this is how they act. To just make the turn rate really fast would have the same desired effect, but be significantly less work (i'm assuming... it sounds like recoding vs changing a number in balance.txt). The rest of the change (random response time or whatever) would be a pocket of work itself, as well.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's your team's fault for not being teched up enough by then.
Even when properly teched, fighting a wall of OCs, or a turret farm is really boring.
OCs and turrets have their uses, just they cost too little.
Remove turrets & oc's from the game, maybe then people would learn to play the game instead of wasting everyones time by turtling up. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and while you're at it, let's just also remove siege cannons, commanders and defense chambers.
Hell, why not just remove all structures and give people upgrades in a points system?
O wait...
Yes, and while you're at it, let's just also remove siege cannons, commanders and defense chambers.
Hell, why not just remove all structures and give people upgrades in a points system?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html" target="_blank">http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html</a>
Random is bad.
Remove OCs, Onoses and Carapace, delay fades to like 15mins along with the second hive, but also delay marine tech.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you can't be serious?
Look at warcraft 3. You know those ice towers? EXACTLY. Reduce OC damage. However, add a slow effect to the projectile. Now it's more effective against marine advancement, rather than being negated by medpack spam.