<!--quoteo(post=1590808:date=Dec 21 2006, 02:46 AM:name=Leon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leon @ Dec 21 2006, 02:46 AM) [snapback]1590808[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> depot killed ns <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps you could enlighten all of us as to how this happened?
<!--quoteo(post=1590883:date=Dec 21 2006, 01:06 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 21 2006, 01:06 PM) [snapback]1590883[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Perhaps you could enlighten all of us as to how this happened? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1590816:date=Dec 21 2006, 09:19 AM:name=Rasulis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rasulis @ Dec 21 2006, 09:19 AM) [snapback]1590816[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I second that.
I use to schaff at combat when it first came out, but after buildmenu and xmenu vanilla combat would be more then welcomed. It reminds me a lot of what happened to the Tribes 2 community; People who have no clue on game development hijacking a game for their cause. This then causes slow but steady fragmentation of the community into these small sub mods. This fragmentation then causes less originl servers and players, who loved the game for what the developers had attended, to leave slowly. This then only excalates the fragmentation of the community, and in turn escalates the loose of solid players and servers, until you have a small community of servers running variations of the game, that barely resemble the game.
I remember I couldn't find one Tribes 2 server that didn't cycle the same custom maps and mods contoured to scout flag cappers. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's basically it, Depot. You split the community and left it to bleed.
Pretty much, CO servers regardless the settings are the reasons why you can't attract an decent NS players. All you get with CO servers is impatient CS kiddies.
And while that may attract warm bodies, that doesn't help build the NS community at all. It does the exact opposite.
On the flipside, NS is a complicated game. Not nearly enough has been done to package it correctly so that it's easily accessable by new players.
Because of that, it's a sad state where the official site tells you to play CO in order to "learn" how to play NS. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/?action=files" target="_blank">We recommend joining "Combat" games to start (maps start with "co_"), and moving to "NS" games when you"re more experienced (maps start with "ns_").</a>
You certainly don't learn how to play NS by playing Aliens-CounterStrike
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree. It is retarded. With these retarded server mods, you're trying to dumb down the game into unbalanced garbage for the sake of trying to get more people to play on your server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, its all a matter of opinian. You say its been dumbed down, but I consider it to be spiced up.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Natural Selection would not have lasted as long as it has if it was not for the competative scene. And these exact same people are now being scared off by xmenu and buildmenu<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You state all these things as facts, but where is the evidence to back up your claims? Supposedly, all "competitive" NS players despise Xmenu and Buildmenu, but wheres the proof? Can you give me a survey of all the "competitive" NS players who have left the game, all citing Xmenu and Buildmenu as the primary cause for their leaving? Can you give me an NS population timeline dating back to several months before the induction of Xmenu and Buildmenu, up to today, and show me a noticable decline at the same point Xmenu and Buildmenu were created? Can you totally discount all other possible reasons for why NS is declining?
And before someone says "just look at the boards" for proof of Xmenu's malevolence, realize that a few outspoken members of a community are not a gauge for anything. Show me some real proof.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's basically it, Depot. You split the community and left it to bleed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think people are blaming Depot for something that is natural in the course of every games life, regardless of the mod community. People leave games because they want something new; they dont want to sit and play the exact same thing over and over and over again. In this respect, I believe Xmenu and buildmenu have actually increased the holding power of NS:CO, as they both add varity and possibilties to an otherwise dull game. The only evidence I have to offer to support this is to look at the servers that are populated nowadays, and look at what mods they are running. According to many people in this post and recent others, you cant find a populated non-Xmenu server. What this tells me, is that Xmenu has not killed CO, but has infact extended its life.
NS has had little, if anything, truly new added to it in years. Its the same game with minor-moderate tweaks here and there. Many people have not liked the changes, and decided to leave. The Half-life engine is nearing 8 years of age, and has been showing its age for many years now. Countless new games have shown up on the market since NS was released, pulling peoples attention from an old HL mod.
Consider those things to explain why NS has declined, and before attacking Xmenu and Buildmenu, disprove them all before saying anything else.
Bring up evidence that xmenu and buildmenu is of any use besides ###### off most players... do a survey or whatever... why should always we proof things?
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited December 2006
The person making the claim is usually the the one required to produce the evidence.
Guys, whatever your opinion are on extra levels, please refrain from making this a personal issue against any one single person. If you can't argue about the game mode, then just refrain from posting.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think people are blaming Depot for something that is natural in the course of every games life, regardless of the mod community. People leave games because they want something new; they dont want to sit and play the exact same thing over and over and over again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to disagree, because when I do a filter for Counter Strike 1.6 on steam there still is plenty and plenty of servers. I believe it's the same with TFC and DOD but I'm currently at work so I can't check. If your statement was true then those communities should have barely anything left in them, but they're still going strong over all. Yes a game does have a shelf life dependant on it's replayability, but that shelf life is greatly reduced the more the community is split. The reason Counter Strike 1.6 is still strong is because the core and original game play is still the majority of the community, allowing competetive play, allowing a easy and solid server base, and allowing players to get into and learn the game instead of being bombarded by 6 different radical versions of the game. Same with other games such as Warcraft 3, diablo, diablo 2, starcraft, and age of empires 2 which all had extremely long community lives.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why should always we proof things?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you dont have anything to back up your claim, then whose going to believe you? Who will take you seriously? You are a faceless name on an internet message board. Are we supposed to take what you say as gospel, just because you said it?
Like Puzl said, the burden of proof lies on the ones making the claim. Stop claiming things if you have no proof to support it.
Depot created the plugin and propagated its use. Therefore he's the one at fault, should I blame the pink elephant who had nothing to do with xmenu for the demise of ns_ ?
Really all xmenu did is just make a mod into several uncontrolled, unregulated clusters of gameplay that have no resemblance to the original game. Consisentecy from one server to another should be key. It's sad that I have one, two or three servers to choose from - and two of those are 15v15 player crapfest on shiva.
<!--quoteo(post=1591033:date=Dec 21 2006, 05:04 PM:name=Leon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leon @ Dec 21 2006, 05:04 PM) [snapback]1591033[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Depot created the plugin and propagated its use. Therefore he's the one at fault, should I blame the pink elephant who had nothing to do with xmenu for the demise of ns_ ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have yet to bring up any evidence that Xmenu had anything to do with the "demise" of NS.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really all xmenu did is just make a mod into several uncontrolled, unregulated clusters of gameplay that have no resemblance to the original game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How can you prove this is a bad thing? Since there are so few people now who are actually playing the original game, it would seem to me that the original game was droped in favor of "several uncontrolled, unregulated clusters of gameplay that have no resemblance to the original game"
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Consisentecy from one server to another should be key.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some people like variety over redundancy.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It's sad that I have one, two or three servers to choose from - and two of those are 15v15 player crapfest on shiva. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just ran a search for NS servers. Right now, there are 50 or 60 servers that are populated. Try one of those.
Electric_Tape can you list me a game or two that's had a strengthened community from submods such as xmenu and buildmenu? I don't consider graphical plugins for TFC or CS the same either. Show me one plugin, that adds and modifies a games original gameplay, that has strengthened any community. The last time I checked Warcraft or super hero mod really don't have a real community and have only diminished the original one for CS and DOD, and Tribes 2 and quake 3 areana's down slide correlated with the rise of plugins and mods like xmenu and build menu. Luckily CS and DOD have a community so engrained with the original game it had very little impact. You apply this to a game like NS though without such a huge community and easy learning curve, you get the fragmentation of the community.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Combat was awful without xmenu and extralevels. With them it's... I'm fairly sure this post would be nuked if I finished that sentence.
Unfortunately Combat was never balanced properly and probably never will either. Most of the players who hate xmenu and extralevels much prefer ns_ over co_ anyway, which is probably why there are so few non xmenu co_ servers out there.
It is a shame that new players are greated with mostly servers with said plugin, though. I can certainly see why the NS playerbase is shrinking. If I joined one of those servers and thought I was playing real NS, I wouldn't want to be playing it either.
<!--quoteo(post=1591043:date=Dec 21 2006, 05:28 PM:name=Electrical_Tape)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Electrical_Tape @ Dec 21 2006, 05:28 PM) [snapback]1591043[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I just ran a search for NS servers. Right now, there are 50 or 60 servers that are populated. Try one of those. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i just ran a search as well, and i filtered out some irrelevant servers. on <250 ping (its godawful to play with more than 100 but hey i love ns), there are 55 populated servers that arent full atm. of them, 50 are either bot servers, running custom maps, or have less than 10 people. and of the remaining 10, most if not all are massive 25-30 player noobfests. so the percentage of servers where i can find a relatively balanced and (for me) fun game of ns on an official map is 0-4%. way to go.
<!--quoteo(post=1590936:date=Dec 21 2006, 11:35 AM:name=Exploder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Exploder @ Dec 21 2006, 11:35 AM) [snapback]1590936[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> That's basically it, Depot. You split the community and left it to bleed. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1591033:date=Dec 21 2006, 05:04 PM:name=Leon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leon @ Dec 21 2006, 05:04 PM) [snapback]1591033[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Depot created the plugin and propagated its use. Therefore he's the one at fault, should I blame the pink elephant who had nothing to do with xmenu for the demise of ns_ ?
Really all xmenu did is just make a mod into several uncontrolled, unregulated clusters of gameplay that have no resemblance to the original game. Consisentecy from one server to another should be key. It's sad that I have one, two or three servers to choose from - and two of those are 15v15 player crapfest on shiva.
I pray NS2 blocks useless plugins. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> To set the record straight, I own and admin the <a href="http://www.nsmod.org/forums/index.php?act=idx" target="_blank">modNS Community Forums</a>, which has been in existence since August 28, 2003. AMXX and Metamod plugins are available for Natural Selection, as well as support for the same. We also have custom models, sounds, and mapping, and much more.
I am not the developer of extralevels3 (White Panther is). What I DID do was port the AMX version of extralevels2 ro AMXX, and playtest extralevels3 for WP.
No one has showed us yet why this plugin caused the demise of NS.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
"It is a shame that new players are greated with mostly servers with said plugin, though. I can certainly see why the NS playerbase is shrinking. If I joined one of those servers and thought I was playing real NS, I wouldn't want to be playing it either."
and I've also given numerous examples and explanations. I also don't think it caused the demise of Natural Selection by itself, but I do think it sped up the process quit a bit.
Some like xmenu and im sure it attracts new players but this doesnt mean its good for NS. For example you could make NS2 a copy of cs but with extreme graphics and steal their whole playerbase but would this really be good for ns? Now i cant prove xmenu is killing ns but i think it definitely attracts the wrong kind of players, players who want to play xmenu and not natural-selection.
<!--quoteo(post=1591062:date=Dec 21 2006, 11:32 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 21 2006, 11:32 PM) [snapback]1591062[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> To set the record straight, I own and admin the <a href="http://www.nsmod.org/forums/index.php?act=idx" target="_blank">modNS Community Forums</a>, which has been in existence since August 28, 2003. AMXX and Metamod plugins are available for Natural Selection, as well as support for the same. We also have custom models, sounds, and mapping, and much more.
I am not the developer of extralevels3 (White Panther is). What I DID do was port the AMX version of extralevels2 ro AMXX, and playtest extralevels3 for WP.
No one has showed us yet why this plugin caused the demise of NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do not consider xmenu, modded servers to be NS. The majority of the servers are or do contain xmenu on them rather than run vanilla ns servers. So since the 0-4% servers actually do run true ns servers that I can actually play on without wbbots or 250 ping you'd have to say the other 96% would be to blame. They are not running wc3mod so theres nothing else to blame besides 50 level buildmenu xmenu crap.
get rid of combat and xmenu - stop catering to cs kids with glorified deathmatch modes and bhopping self welding jetpack-heavy marines and 15 upgrade onoses. If you condone what I just mentioned as a legimate form of this game and supporting these horrendous plugins you're doing everyone a diservice.
<!--quoteo(post=1591062:date=Dec 22 2006, 12:32 AM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 22 2006, 12:32 AM) [snapback]1591062[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> To set the record straight, I own and admin the <a href="http://www.nsmod.org/forums/index.php?act=idx" target="_blank">modNS Community Forums</a>, which has been in existence since August 28, 2003. AMXX and Metamod plugins are available for Natural Selection, as well as support for the same. We also have custom models, sounds, and mapping, and much more.
I am not the developer of extralevels3 (White Panther is). What I DID do was port the AMX version of extralevels2 ro AMXX, and playtest extralevels3 for WP.
No one has showed us yet why this plugin caused the demise of NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then what have you created?
<!--quoteo(post=1591043:date=Dec 21 2006, 11:28 PM:name=Electrical_Tape)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Electrical_Tape @ Dec 21 2006, 11:28 PM) [snapback]1591043[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You have yet to bring up any evidence that Xmenu had anything to do with the "demise" of NS. How can you prove this is a bad thing? Since there are so few people now who are actually playing the original game, it would seem to me that the original game was droped in favor of "several uncontrolled, unregulated clusters of gameplay that have no resemblance to the original game" <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've noticed that more and more servers installed xmenu and other similiar plugins since its introduction, and it's still happening. There is nothing I can do to prevent this, and that's the case for too many of us. That means that the vanilla co servers are getting exctinct. I do believe that these plugins were more or less "forced" into the community.
Because if one admin decides to install xmenu on a very popular server he basically forces them to play with xmenu. Somehow a lot of admins decided to do this, and we are now left with more plugin-infested servers than ever before. The reason no one is playing vanilla co right is because there are hardly no vanilla co servers left.
Believe me, I would play vanilla co instead of xmenu exclusively, but I can't. Quite recently, all my favorite servers installed xmenu. Now there's just one left for me to play on, and that's Wireplay. It's a damn shame.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Electric_Tape can you list me a game or two that's had a strengthened community from submods such as xmenu and buildmenu<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I havnt played any other game that uses a mod of a mod. Xmenu and Buildmenu are actually the only ones Ive seen.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tribes 2 and quake 3 areana's down slide correlated with the rise of plugins and mods like xmenu and build menu<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats easy to say, but wheres the proof that those submods are responsible for the decline? Can you prove that the games were not declining before the release of these mods? It seems to me that it is perfectly logical for these submods to have been created with the purpose of revitalizing the game, because numbers were beginning to drop already.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Luckily CS and DOD have a community so engrained with the original game it had very little impact. You apply this to a game like NS though without such a huge community and easy learning curve, you get the fragmentation of the community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why does a fragmented community spell out doom for a game? As far as I can tell, fragmentation doesnt really do anything either way. It just lets people play how they want to play, essentially making the game more fun.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i just ran a search as well, and i filtered out some irrelevant servers. on <250 ping (its godawful to play with more than 100 but hey i love ns), there are 55 populated servers that arent full atm. of them, 50 are either bot servers, running custom maps, or have less than 10 people. and of the remaining 10, most if not all are massive 25-30 player noobfests. so the percentage of servers where i can find a relatively balanced and (for me) fun game of ns on an official map is 0-4%. way to go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe its time for you to find a new game then. In all seriousness, if you are so dissatisified with the current state of the game where you only have a 0 - 4% chance at finding a server you like, maybe a new game would provide more fun. Complaining about how Xmenu is poison and Depot is the Anti-Christ will not send you back in time to before Xmenu and "noobfests".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"It is a shame that new players are greated with mostly servers with said plugin, though. I can certainly see why the NS playerbase is shrinking. If I joined one of those servers and thought I was playing real NS, I wouldn't want to be playing it either."
I do believe I just quoted myself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You restated your opinian, you didnt prove anything.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->get rid of combat and xmenu - stop catering to cs kids with glorified deathmatch modes and bhopping self welding jetpack-heavy marines and 15 upgrade onoses. If you condone what I just mentioned as a legimate form of this game and supporting these horrendous plugins you're doing everyone a diservice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apparently not everyone, since Xmenu/buildmenu is the only popular CO config now.
It all comes down to this, folks. People who like Xmenu are the majority, and those who hate Xmenu, are the minority. The minority is unhappy because more people want to play CO a different way than they do, and theres nothing the minority can do to change that. If this were not true, then Xmenu would have died out long ago due to lack of interest.
There is no conspiracy to force Xmenu on you all. Depot didnt bribe all the server admins to run Xmenu, Xmenu is simply more popular than vanilla CO.
<!--quoteo(post=1591062:date=Dec 21 2006, 11:32 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 21 2006, 11:32 PM) [snapback]1591062[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No one has showed us yet why this plugin caused the demise of NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It hasn't; Directly. CO is the cause. XMenu is an attempt to popularize CO.
You know what, there aren't many of us "classic" NS fans left. Just go ahead and remove classic, add a stricter mp_bs which blocks aliasing (even better make it a mandatory cvar), and integrate xmenu and buildmenu into this 'new and improved' NS. It is clear that 96% of the servers running are already doing that so why not cater to the majority.
Yep, for a game to be successful it has to cater to the lowest common denominator. So quit playing this 'classic' and lets all play xmenu combat. Too bad if you get banned because you aimbot.
The goal and the outcome of combat are two different things. One could argue that anything that circumvents that goal is harmful against the devs and their/our game.
What was combat created for? Why does it exist? Initially, it was something meaningless to do while waiting to fill the server with enough players to play <i>normal</i> NS. They may have also been some aspect of training a new player in the overall goal, but I don't recall a mention of that and I might bring this point up later.
The outcome is obvious. A game designed for quick games between a few players was *******ized into something else. Instead of attracting people to join a server with an intererum mini-game, it suplemented the game entirely. Instead of having a quick game, plugins - once again - circumvent this with 3 plugins that unbalance team levels by inflating the XP pool (free/late join XP), make players stronger than designed (>10 levels), and do things the game was never designed for (xmenu).
If you try to have an NS server with combat for when the server has too few players, you'll have 2 massive problems when it changes to a normal map. Combat only players will leave, leaving server - once again - with too few players to have a meaningful game and the server will quickly die. The other result is worse, the combat players stay and try to play the game like combat - no communication, no teamwork, reswh*re and insta-die because they can't go cara regen redempt fade with focus adren and celer (and insta-leave the server when they die). NS players new to the server leave - disgusted with the lack of decent players - and don't add it to their favorites. Combat kills the server instead of doing it's original goal. Combat doesn't even use parts of normal NS maps for its games so that combat players will be familiar with the layouts of any NS maps.
If you're saying I've just stated what happens with combat and haven't addressed XMenu specificly - except for one sentence - then you're right. Combat wasn't meant to have any depth of play or breadth of time. If, indeed, combat was meant to train new players, it adds a boatload of things that aren't in NS. Stacked aliens upgrades are bad enough for training players badly how to play the aliens - xmenu upgrades make it way worse. It's not uncommon for an Xmenu combat match to run 6x longer than the design's default max playtime. There's less incintive to move on to NS and even more of a possibility that the player will burn out on NS and leave completely before even playing normal NS. There's also the simple time matter. Players that actually do play both NS modes spend longer not playing normal NS when combat match times are artificially inflated and games balances are unnaturally altered.
<!--quoteo(post=1591092:date=Dec 22 2006, 12:33 AM:name=Electrical_Tape)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Electrical_Tape @ Dec 22 2006, 12:33 AM) [snapback]1591092[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Apparently not everyone, since Xmenu/buildmenu is the only popular CO config now. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being popular makes something correct and therefore it can no longer be perceived as negative.
I'm not sure why buildmenu keeps coming up in this thread, as it's not a very popular plugin. The last available stats I have (before NS v3.2 was released),
<b>Sunday November 19th</b>
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->ExtraLevels 3 98 Hive and CC Health Display 96 Crab's Map Manager 92 Latejoin XP 83 Team Resources Display 81 Display Rules 62 Spawn Invulnerability 55 Awards Display 52 Anit Readyroom Crash 48 Superlift 46 <!--c2--></div><!--ec2--> Worth noting: 6 / 10 of these plugins really don't affect gameplay, and some even make it more enjoyable. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
You know what caused the decline of NS? The NS website being down FOR OVER A YEAR AND A HALF. Not to mention CAL dropping all support for NS. But no those didn't cause the decline, a plugin for co_maps did. :rolleyes:
Comments
depot killed ns
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps you could enlighten all of us as to how this happened?
Perhaps you could enlighten all of us as to how this happened?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1590816:date=Dec 21 2006, 09:19 AM:name=Rasulis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rasulis @ Dec 21 2006, 09:19 AM) [snapback]1590816[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I second that.
I use to schaff at combat when it first came out, but after buildmenu and xmenu vanilla combat would be more then welcomed. It reminds me a lot of what happened to the Tribes 2 community; People who have no clue on game development hijacking a game for their cause. This then causes slow but steady fragmentation of the community into these small sub mods. This fragmentation then causes less originl servers and players, who loved the game for what the developers had attended, to leave slowly. This then only excalates the fragmentation of the community, and in turn escalates the loose of solid players and servers, until you have a small community of servers running variations of the game, that barely resemble the game.
I remember I couldn't find one Tribes 2 server that didn't cycle the same custom maps and mods contoured to scout flag cappers.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's basically it, Depot. You split the community and left it to bleed.
CO servers regardless the settings are the reasons why you can't attract an decent NS players.
All you get with CO servers is impatient CS kiddies.
And while that may attract warm bodies, that doesn't help build the NS community at all.
It does the exact opposite.
On the flipside, NS is a complicated game.
Not nearly enough has been done to package it correctly so that it's easily accessable by new players.
Because of that, it's a sad state where the official site tells you to play CO in order to "learn" how to play NS.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/?action=files" target="_blank">We recommend joining "Combat" games to start (maps start with "co_"), and moving to "NS" games when you"re more experienced (maps start with "ns_").</a>
You certainly don't learn how to play NS by playing Aliens-CounterStrike
Again, its all a matter of opinian. You say its been dumbed down, but I consider it to be spiced up.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Natural Selection would not have lasted as long as it has if it was not for the competative scene. And these exact same people are now being scared off by xmenu and buildmenu<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You state all these things as facts, but where is the evidence to back up your claims? Supposedly, all "competitive" NS players despise Xmenu and Buildmenu, but wheres the proof? Can you give me a survey of all the "competitive" NS players who have left the game, all citing Xmenu and Buildmenu as the primary cause for their leaving? Can you give me an NS population timeline dating back to several months before the induction of Xmenu and Buildmenu, up to today, and show me a noticable decline at the same point Xmenu and Buildmenu were created? Can you totally discount all other possible reasons for why NS is declining?
And before someone says "just look at the boards" for proof of Xmenu's malevolence, realize that a few outspoken members of a community are not a gauge for anything. Show me some real proof.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's basically it, Depot. You split the community and left it to bleed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think people are blaming Depot for something that is natural in the course of every games life, regardless of the mod community. People leave games because they want something new; they dont want to sit and play the exact same thing over and over and over again. In this respect, I believe Xmenu and buildmenu have actually increased the holding power of NS:CO, as they both add varity and possibilties to an otherwise dull game. The only evidence I have to offer to support this is to look at the servers that are populated nowadays, and look at what mods they are running. According to many people in this post and recent others, you cant find a populated non-Xmenu server. What this tells me, is that Xmenu has not killed CO, but has infact extended its life.
NS has had little, if anything, truly new added to it in years. Its the same game with minor-moderate tweaks here and there. Many people have not liked the changes, and decided to leave. The Half-life engine is nearing 8 years of age, and has been showing its age for many years now. Countless new games have shown up on the market since NS was released, pulling peoples attention from an old HL mod.
Consider those things to explain why NS has declined, and before attacking Xmenu and Buildmenu, disprove them all before saying anything else.
Bring up evidence that xmenu and buildmenu is of any use besides ###### off most players... do a survey or whatever... why should always we proof things?
Guys, whatever your opinion are on extra levels, please refrain from making this a personal issue against any one single person. If you can't argue about the game mode, then just refrain from posting.
I have to disagree, because when I do a filter for Counter Strike 1.6 on steam there still is plenty and plenty of servers. I believe it's the same with TFC and DOD but I'm currently at work so I can't check. If your statement was true then those communities should have barely anything left in them, but they're still going strong over all. Yes a game does have a shelf life dependant on it's replayability, but that shelf life is greatly reduced the more the community is split. The reason Counter Strike 1.6 is still strong is because the core and original game play is still the majority of the community, allowing competetive play, allowing a easy and solid server base, and allowing players to get into and learn the game instead of being bombarded by 6 different radical versions of the game. Same with other games such as Warcraft 3, diablo, diablo 2, starcraft, and age of empires 2 which all had extremely long community lives.
If you dont have anything to back up your claim, then whose going to believe you? Who will take you seriously? You are a faceless name on an internet message board. Are we supposed to take what you say as gospel, just because you said it?
Like Puzl said, the burden of proof lies on the ones making the claim. Stop claiming things if you have no proof to support it.
Really all xmenu did is just make a mod into several uncontrolled, unregulated clusters of gameplay that have no resemblance to the original game. Consisentecy from one server to another should be key. It's sad that I have one, two or three servers to choose from - and two of those are 15v15 player crapfest on shiva.
I pray NS2 blocks useless plugins.
Depot created the plugin and propagated its use. Therefore he's the one at fault, should I blame the pink elephant who had nothing to do with xmenu for the demise of ns_ ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have yet to bring up any evidence that Xmenu had anything to do with the "demise" of NS.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really all xmenu did is just make a mod into several uncontrolled, unregulated clusters of gameplay that have no resemblance to the original game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How can you prove this is a bad thing? Since there are so few people now who are actually playing the original game, it would seem to me that the original game was droped in favor of "several uncontrolled, unregulated clusters of gameplay that have no resemblance to the original game"
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Consisentecy from one server to another should be key.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some people like variety over redundancy.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It's sad that I have one, two or three servers to choose from - and two of those are 15v15 player crapfest on shiva. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just ran a search for NS servers. Right now, there are 50 or 60 servers that are populated. Try one of those.
Unfortunately Combat was never balanced properly and probably never will either. Most of the players who hate xmenu and extralevels much prefer ns_ over co_ anyway, which is probably why there are so few non xmenu co_ servers out there.
It is a shame that new players are greated with mostly servers with said plugin, though. I can certainly see why the NS playerbase is shrinking. If I joined one of those servers and thought I was playing real NS, I wouldn't want to be playing it either.
I just ran a search for NS servers. Right now, there are 50 or 60 servers that are populated. Try one of those.
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i just ran a search as well, and i filtered out some irrelevant servers. on <250 ping (its godawful to play with more than 100 but hey i love ns), there are 55 populated servers that arent full atm. of them, 50 are either bot servers, running custom maps, or have less than 10 people. and of the remaining 10, most if not all are massive 25-30 player noobfests. so the percentage of servers where i can find a relatively balanced and (for me) fun game of ns on an official map is 0-4%. way to go.
That's basically it, Depot. You split the community and left it to bleed.
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<!--quoteo(post=1591033:date=Dec 21 2006, 05:04 PM:name=Leon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leon @ Dec 21 2006, 05:04 PM) [snapback]1591033[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Depot created the plugin and propagated its use. Therefore he's the one at fault, should I blame the pink elephant who had nothing to do with xmenu for the demise of ns_ ?
Really all xmenu did is just make a mod into several uncontrolled, unregulated clusters of gameplay that have no resemblance to the original game. Consisentecy from one server to another should be key. It's sad that I have one, two or three servers to choose from - and two of those are 15v15 player crapfest on shiva.
I pray NS2 blocks useless plugins.
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To set the record straight, I own and admin the <a href="http://www.nsmod.org/forums/index.php?act=idx" target="_blank">modNS Community Forums</a>, which has been in existence since August 28, 2003. AMXX and Metamod plugins are available for Natural Selection, as well as support for the same. We also have custom models, sounds, and mapping, and much more.
I am not the developer of extralevels3 (White Panther is). What I DID do was port the AMX version of extralevels2 ro AMXX, and playtest extralevels3 for WP.
No one has showed us yet why this plugin caused the demise of NS.
I do believe I just quoted myself.
For example you could make NS2 a copy of cs but with extreme graphics and steal their whole playerbase but would this really be good for ns?
Now i cant prove xmenu is killing ns but i think it definitely attracts the wrong kind of players, players who want to play xmenu and not natural-selection.
To set the record straight, I own and admin the <a href="http://www.nsmod.org/forums/index.php?act=idx" target="_blank">modNS Community Forums</a>, which has been in existence since August 28, 2003. AMXX and Metamod plugins are available for Natural Selection, as well as support for the same. We also have custom models, sounds, and mapping, and much more.
I am not the developer of extralevels3 (White Panther is). What I DID do was port the AMX version of extralevels2 ro AMXX, and playtest extralevels3 for WP.
No one has showed us yet why this plugin caused the demise of NS.
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I do not consider xmenu, modded servers to be NS. The majority of the servers are or do contain xmenu on them rather than run vanilla ns servers. So since the 0-4% servers actually do run true ns servers that I can actually play on without wbbots or 250 ping you'd have to say the other 96% would be to blame. They are not running wc3mod so theres nothing else to blame besides 50 level buildmenu xmenu crap.
get rid of combat and xmenu - stop catering to cs kids with glorified deathmatch modes and bhopping self welding jetpack-heavy marines and 15 upgrade onoses. If you condone what I just mentioned as a legimate form of this game and supporting these horrendous plugins you're doing everyone a diservice.
To set the record straight, I own and admin the <a href="http://www.nsmod.org/forums/index.php?act=idx" target="_blank">modNS Community Forums</a>, which has been in existence since August 28, 2003. AMXX and Metamod plugins are available for Natural Selection, as well as support for the same. We also have custom models, sounds, and mapping, and much more.
I am not the developer of extralevels3 (White Panther is). What I DID do was port the AMX version of extralevels2 ro AMXX, and playtest extralevels3 for WP.
No one has showed us yet why this plugin caused the demise of NS.
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Then what have you created?
<!--quoteo(post=1591043:date=Dec 21 2006, 11:28 PM:name=Electrical_Tape)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Electrical_Tape @ Dec 21 2006, 11:28 PM) [snapback]1591043[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
You have yet to bring up any evidence that Xmenu had anything to do with the "demise" of NS.
How can you prove this is a bad thing? Since there are so few people now who are actually playing the original game, it would seem to me that the original game was droped in favor of "several uncontrolled, unregulated clusters of gameplay that have no resemblance to the original game"
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I've noticed that more and more servers installed xmenu and other similiar plugins since its introduction, and it's still happening. There is nothing I can do to prevent this, and that's the case for too many of us.
That means that the vanilla co servers are getting exctinct. I do believe that these plugins were more or less "forced" into the community.
Because if one admin decides to install xmenu on a very popular server he basically forces them to play with xmenu. Somehow a lot of admins decided to do this, and we are now left with more plugin-infested servers than ever before. The reason no one is playing vanilla co right is because there are hardly no vanilla co servers left.
Believe me, I would play vanilla co instead of xmenu exclusively, but I can't. Quite recently, all my favorite servers installed xmenu. Now there's just one left for me to play on, and that's Wireplay. It's a damn shame.
I havnt played any other game that uses a mod of a mod. Xmenu and Buildmenu are actually the only ones Ive seen.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tribes 2 and quake 3 areana's down slide correlated with the rise of plugins and mods like xmenu and build menu<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats easy to say, but wheres the proof that those submods are responsible for the decline? Can you prove that the games were not declining before the release of these mods? It seems to me that it is perfectly logical for these submods to have been created with the purpose of revitalizing the game, because numbers were beginning to drop already.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Luckily CS and DOD have a community so engrained with the original game it had very little impact. You apply this to a game like NS though without such a huge community and easy learning curve, you get the fragmentation of the community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why does a fragmented community spell out doom for a game? As far as I can tell, fragmentation doesnt really do anything either way. It just lets people play how they want to play, essentially making the game more fun.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i just ran a search as well, and i filtered out some irrelevant servers. on <250 ping (its godawful to play with more than 100 but hey i love ns), there are 55 populated servers that arent full atm. of them, 50 are either bot servers, running custom maps, or have less than 10 people. and of the remaining 10, most if not all are massive 25-30 player noobfests. so the percentage of servers where i can find a relatively balanced and (for me) fun game of ns on an official map is 0-4%. way to go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe its time for you to find a new game then. In all seriousness, if you are so dissatisified with the current state of the game where you only have a 0 - 4% chance at finding a server you like, maybe a new game would provide more fun. Complaining about how Xmenu is poison and Depot is the Anti-Christ will not send you back in time to before Xmenu and "noobfests".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"It is a shame that new players are greated with mostly servers with said plugin, though. I can certainly see why the NS playerbase is shrinking. If I joined one of those servers and thought I was playing real NS, I wouldn't want to be playing it either."
I do believe I just quoted myself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You restated your opinian, you didnt prove anything.
Apparently not everyone, since Xmenu/buildmenu is the only popular CO config now.
It all comes down to this, folks. People who like Xmenu are the majority, and those who hate Xmenu, are the minority. The minority is unhappy because more people want to play CO a different way than they do, and theres nothing the minority can do to change that. If this were not true, then Xmenu would have died out long ago due to lack of interest.
There is no conspiracy to force Xmenu on you all. Depot didnt bribe all the server admins to run Xmenu, Xmenu is simply more popular than vanilla CO.
It hasn't; Directly.
CO is the cause. XMenu is an attempt to popularize CO.
mp_bs
combat
xmenu
You know what, there aren't many of us "classic" NS fans left. Just go ahead and remove classic, add a stricter mp_bs which blocks aliasing (even better make it a mandatory cvar), and integrate xmenu and buildmenu into this 'new and improved' NS. It is clear that 96% of the servers running are already doing that so why not cater to the majority.
Yep, for a game to be successful it has to cater to the lowest common denominator. So quit playing this 'classic' and lets all play xmenu combat. Too bad if you get banned because you aimbot.
What was combat created for? Why does it exist? Initially, it was something meaningless to do while waiting to fill the server with enough players to play <i>normal</i> NS. They may have also been some aspect of training a new player in the overall goal, but I don't recall a mention of that and I might bring this point up later.
The outcome is obvious. A game designed for quick games between a few players was *******ized into something else. Instead of attracting people to join a server with an intererum mini-game, it suplemented the game entirely. Instead of having a quick game, plugins - once again - circumvent this with 3 plugins that unbalance team levels by inflating the XP pool (free/late join XP), make players stronger than designed (>10 levels), and do things the game was never designed for (xmenu).
If you try to have an NS server with combat for when the server has too few players, you'll have 2 massive problems when it changes to a normal map. Combat only players will leave, leaving server - once again - with too few players to have a meaningful game and the server will quickly die. The other result is worse, the combat players stay and try to play the game like combat - no communication, no teamwork, reswh*re and insta-die because they can't go cara regen redempt fade with focus adren and celer (and insta-leave the server when they die). NS players new to the server leave - disgusted with the lack of decent players - and don't add it to their favorites. Combat kills the server instead of doing it's original goal. Combat doesn't even use parts of normal NS maps for its games so that combat players will be familiar with the layouts of any NS maps.
If you're saying I've just stated what happens with combat and haven't addressed XMenu specificly - except for one sentence - then you're right. Combat wasn't meant to have any depth of play or breadth of time. If, indeed, combat was meant to train new players, it adds a boatload of things that aren't in NS. Stacked aliens upgrades are bad enough for training players badly how to play the aliens - xmenu upgrades make it way worse. It's not uncommon for an Xmenu combat match to run 6x longer than the design's default max playtime. There's less incintive to move on to NS and even more of a possibility that the player will burn out on NS and leave completely before even playing normal NS. There's also the simple time matter. Players that actually do play both NS modes spend longer not playing normal NS when combat match times are artificially inflated and games balances are unnaturally altered.
Apparently not everyone, since Xmenu/buildmenu is the only popular CO config now.
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Being popular makes something correct and therefore it can no longer be perceived as negative.
"Arg, I ran solo into a horde of aliens and got some kills. OMG I want my HMG now! Gimme an HMG or I'm leaving!"
<b>Sunday November 19th</b>
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->ExtraLevels 3 98
Hive and CC Health Display 96
Crab's Map Manager 92
Latejoin XP 83
Team Resources Display 81
Display Rules 62
Spawn Invulnerability 55
Awards Display 52
Anit Readyroom Crash 48
Superlift 46
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Worth noting: 6 / 10 of these plugins really don't affect gameplay, and some even make it more enjoyable. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />