For the creative!
Merkaba
Digital Harmony Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 22Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester
Digital Harmony Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 22Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester
in Off-Topic
<div class="IPBDescription">guidelines</div>I stumbled across this page completely at random last night:
<a href="http://www.gapingvoid.com/Moveable_Type/archives/000932.html" target="_blank">How to be creative</a> (Some bad language, all in good spirit)
I found it an extremely informative and reflective read! I highly recommend it to anyone and everyone who has a creative spirit.
It's not just a list of bullet points, scroll down and you'll find each one has an in-depth explaination. The business card scans are great too <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<a href="http://www.gapingvoid.com/Moveable_Type/archives/000932.html" target="_blank">How to be creative</a> (Some bad language, all in good spirit)
I found it an extremely informative and reflective read! I highly recommend it to anyone and everyone who has a creative spirit.
It's not just a list of bullet points, scroll down and you'll find each one has an in-depth explaination. The business card scans are great too <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Comments
So this entire thing brings up a point to me. I like programming: I could see it as a damned good hobby, perhaps even truly the job I want to get into.
But every other part of me is so art oriented its daunting. I have no visual artistic skills beyond design, my knowledge of musical instruments is limited(classical bass), and writing to me feels too easy(though ironically enough I worship the ground Neil Gaiman walks on). I'm also not as well-versed in art as I would want to be.
GRRRRRRRRRRR.
To actually try and be on topic: Wow, those are surprisingly insightful. While most of them I already live by, some I find ironic- Dying young is overrated, for example, is something that I truly wonder about. I've always found a young death to be fascinating, in the realm of fantasy/unreality, and its a way to become a Legend for all eternity. Also, I hate you, Sex & Cash Theory.
Edit: I know, creativity doesn't necessarily mean art. But they DO go hand in hand.
Try telling that to those that have cashed in on people such as Houdini, Elvis Presley and 2Pac!
Try telling that to those that have cashed in on people such as Houdini, Elvis Presley and 2Pac!
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Too bad only one of those guys is actually dead. Everybody knows that 2Pac is still alive, and if you go down to Alabama they still see Elvis every once in a while.
1) You're not very good at it, and don't realise it, or
2) You're awesome at it.
The only way to figure which of the two it is is to try. And don't ask family or friends whether your stuff is good. Ask publishers.
But every other part of me is so art oriented its daunting. I have no visual artistic skills beyond design, my knowledge of musical instruments is limited(classical bass), and writing to me feels too easy(though ironically enough I worship the ground Neil Gaiman walks on). I'm also not as well-versed in art as I would want to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's another post in the same thread because I can.
If you can play classical bass you should ditch the bow and learn to play upright swing bass or rockabilly, the world can never have too many upright bass players. It's an extremely underapreciated instrument, I would give my left nut to know and play with a decent upright bass player.
Also, how is it ironic that you find writing easy and worship Neil Gaiman? Aside from the fact that writing anything like Neil Gaiman is extremely easy. I'm assume that's not what you meant, even though I think it's tue.
Wish I'd seen that one earlier in life. My friends throughout High School were a bunch of watercoolies.
Quaunaut, then why not try creative programming? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> As your 'sex', and whatever else you are doing as your 'cash'...you never actualled explained what your problem was so I'm just kinda throwing straws into the darkness here. (where the hell did that come from?)
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To be honest, thats what I'd really like to do, but expressing yourself in source code which no one will see just feels so pointless. Why do that when I can just be that much more efficient?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If writing is easy, there are two possibilities:
1) You're not very good at it, and don't realise it, or
2) You're awesome at it.
The only way to figure which of the two it is is to try. And don't ask family or friends whether your stuff is good. Ask publishers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I don't know which it is. There'll be some days its definitely number 1, but other days its definitely number two. I've done some writing in the past that impressed teachers(and this is more than you think, considering how much I piss off my teachers) to the point of submitting it to writing contests- some won, some didn't, but usually I didn't care about the outcome, as I did the writing to point out a fact to the teacher, not the world(as I said, I piss off my teachers...often.)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's another post in the same thread because I can.
If you can play classical bass you should ditch the bow and learn to play upright swing bass or rockabilly, the world can never have too many upright bass players. It's an extremely underapreciated instrument, I would give my left nut to know and play with a decent upright bass player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually tried some speed-bluegrass for awhile, and it was certainly more engaging than most classical, but I never really got a chance to bring that beyond the single concert we did. *Shrug*
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, how is it ironic that you find writing easy and worship Neil Gaiman? Aside from the fact that writing anything like Neil Gaiman is extremely easy. I'm assume that's not what you meant, even though I think it's tue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno. His writing style completely owns my mind. I find it far enough out there that my brain has trouble wrapping around it. Yet other authors, I think tend to be too simplistic. *Shrug*
I guess my biggest issue is, I know I'd rather do a true 'art' style(I want to design games more than anything, but I want to treat them like art- I still herald Shadow of the Colossus in my top 3), to keep me engaged. Sometimes, I just don't feel like programming. But I get bouts of inspiration too often, which is frustrating when you don't have the skill to put it out there properly, in most cases(unless its a short story). And the more I think about it, concept art, however futile, allows me to put visual styles, and movement styles, out there, a lot easier than just describing it in words.
The real frustration in this case is, I guess, I've already got both feet in the programming circle, and I doubt I can back out at this point- and even if I could, I don't think I want to abandon it entirely. Perhaps its finding the freedom within my own mind to just do without care.
Edit: This post has been edited too. Many. Times.
Why do you think noone will see your said creative programming? Besides which, if you have another job then you don't <i>need</i> anyone to see it, and it'll all add to personal experience (although I concede it is very nice to have people experience it and go "coo!" <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> machina *cough*). Otherwise, why not try making some creatively programmed minigames in Flash, or else in C# or whatever, and fit it alongside the lines of Zen of Sudoku? God knows that the mini-game scene is in desperate need of some new ideas, as for the most part I often just see the same games from 10-15 years ago redone with a new name and purdier graphics. WE NEED new games, new ideas, creativity not just in the artistic style but in the programming and execution itself - it's all a matter of will, though. I'd love to do that sort of thing myself but right now, I just don't have the will.
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Oh, creating new game design ideas or the such is not an issue. I meant purely at the programming level- source code allows no recognition, generally, and as an art form...it doesn't feel traditional enough for me. At least a game overall is an art form unto itself.
I love working with visual styles. I love to manipulate looks to things. But modifying others' works doesn't net you anything other than a "Cease and Desist"...and thusly, I'd rather create my own styles.
Seems like your desire to be seen and known is a lot bigger than your desire to create. I can understand wanting some validation or something, but really, if you're not doing it for yourself, then maybe you shouldn't be doing it at all. Who cares if anyone sees any of your source code or if you never get to play at any concerts or whatever? You can always figure out how to show it to people later. The important thing is to create, not to worry about whether or not anyone else will know that you have.
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Its not that easy.
I can't compare, and thusly, cannot learn from others, if I can't do those things. Thats an advantage that is needed, period. It has nothing to doing with wanting to be seen and known, its that I can't compare what isn't there.
"God knows that the mini-game scene is in desperate need of some new ideas, as for the most part I often just see the same games from 10-15 years ago redone with a new name and purdier graphics. <b>WE NEED new games, new ideas, creativity not just in the artistic style but in the programming and execution itself</b>"
Its not that easy.
I can't compare, and thusly, cannot learn from others, if I can't do those things. Thats an advantage that is needed, period. It has nothing to doing with wanting to be seen and known, its that I can't compare what isn't there.
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You don't need other people to see YOUR stuff to compare them. For example, you can compare stuff you write to stuff you read, or stuff you program to stuff you play, or stuff you play (music) to stuff you hear. You don't need everyone else to see it all.
According to that creative thingy I've never let go of the crayons and my adult voice never visits xD
And frankly, at my newness to what I've tried to create, I do need validation.
Still, the key thing is, if it does fail at gameplay then I don't much care. I'm happy to take it out of the next NS build if there is no reason to keep it in other than it looking pretty. I hope like hell that doesn't happen and I shall be working to keep it in and improve on it, but I don't really mind greatly if it gets taken out. People have seen it, most importantly I've seen it, it's done. So long as there is reason though, I will continue to better it - there are still things I want to do, and it hasn't yet quite reached the mental goals I set out at the start...but it's come far enough that I'm happy to let it lie if need be (a lot to do with it is that I'm just sick of it, and want to move on!)
So what's my point? Erm...I guess my point is that if you <i>really</i> want to do something and it is within your capability (or rather, you can push your capability to achieve it), you should do it. Who cares if its a flop - please YOURSELF! Like I really gave a crap what other people thought whilst making machina, it was my brain child, and not owed to anyone but myself. That other people seem to like it is a fortunate bonus.
[edit] (whee I love editing my posts!)
I think that you are mixing up functionality with creativity. Stick your fingers up at everyone else, and what they're doing. Be inspired, sure, but you are the ultimate judge of your own creative work. And read those guidelines again! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> I will be, they're golden.
*another edit*
the tone of this email is meant to be helpful and kind by the way, not belittling or patronising...it seems like you have a problem and I'm trying to help you see...there is no problem! Don't quit before you've started....read what that guy was saying about the 'adult voice trying to take the crayons away'.
To be honest, thats what I'd really like to do, but expressing yourself in source code which no one will see just feels so pointless. Why do that when I can just be that much more efficient?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Expressing yourself in source code isn't what creative coding is about. You aren't expressible in code, and creative coding is a lot more than expression.
Writing code is like writing literature, except that instead of knowing about life you have to know about math. When you come up with a new way of approaching a difficult problem, formalize it in math, implement it in code, and then see the results, there's no greater joy in the world short of having a kid.
To get an opportunity to be really creative with code, you have to be really really <i>really</i> good at math. If you get to that point however, you can move mountains.
from <a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Programming" target="_blank">http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Programming</a>
"Computer programming is tremendous fun. Like music, it is a skill that derives from an unknown blend of innate talent and constant practice. Like drawing, it can be shaped to a variety of ends – commercial, artistic, and pure entertainment. Programmers have a well-deserved reputation for working long hours but are rarely credited with being driven by creative fevers. Programmers talk about software development on weekends, vacations, and over meals not because they lack imagination, but because their imagination reveals worlds that others cannot see."
* Larry O'Brien and Bruce Eckel in Thinking in C#
Might not be relevant to this thread but it's a quote I enjoy <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />.
Quan does have a point - depending on the type of program/game/whatever being made, validation can be necessary. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, look at ns_machina - I'm very happy with the visual style of the map, and I don't much care what other people think about it or the major gameplay aspects (ie, pits of doom) - however, if it isn't a fun map to play, which is not something that I can really judge by myself, then it has failed in its very nature of being a game level. A personal artistic achievement it may be, but in the wider context, somewhat of a flop.
Still, the key thing is, if it does fail at gameplay then I don't much care. I'm happy to take it out of the next NS build if there is no reason to keep it in other than it looking pretty. I hope like hell that doesn't happen and I shall be working to keep it in and improve on it, but I don't really mind greatly if it gets taken out. People have seen it, most importantly I've seen it, it's done. So long as there is reason though, I will continue to better it - there are still things I want to do, and it hasn't yet quite reached the mental goals I set out at the start...but it's come far enough that I'm happy to let it lie if need be (a lot to do with it is that I'm just sick of it, and want to move on!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had a similar experience with ns_shiva. I basically did it for my own enjoyment as a creative escape from schoolwork. I think you're downplaying the role of validation too much however. If machina had never made it into ns, and gotten a total of maybe 20 games on 3 servers it would have been very disappointing. That's the kind of thing that kills projects. I totally agree with you however, that the external validation isn't what keeps a project going, mostly cause no one is likely to care about your project. If you want to do something, just start it, and keep at it. The results will come, and once you are happy with it let external validation carry you forward to that next level of polish. The important thing is to start with an internal desire and keep at it and not worry about other people until you've accomplished what you want to.
Also, yeah, I would seek mild approval from others- but I'm not gonna break down and cry because someone gave me a bad critique. I'll take it as a reason to try harder, and learn from what they say(and if they gave no reasons, why should I care for their opinion?).
I think that if you say its as cut and dry as "you will fail" if you seek validation, or at least support(which really, thats what validation is- support to go on), is nothing more than a naive look at the world of art through rose colored glasses. It may hurt you at one point, but it doesn't cripple you.
I completely disagree though. It may be like that for others, but the validation is part of a larger structure- to make sure I'm on the right path, to learn shortcuts to things I already do from others, and to make the process less painful overall.
Also, yeah, I would seek mild approval from others- but I'm not gonna break down and cry because someone gave me a bad critique. I'll take it as a reason to try harder, and learn from what they say(and if they gave no reasons, why should I care for their opinion?).
I think that if you say its as cut and dry as "you will fail" if you seek validation, or at least support(which really, thats what validation is- support to go on), is nothing more than a naive look at the world of art through rose colored glasses. It may hurt you at one point, but it doesn't cripple you.
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Just to sum up what I said earlier, Seek validation once you are done and satisfied, not when you are starting.