Upgrades visible on model
Scribbles
Join Date: 2003-11-05 Member: 22323Members
Join Date: 2003-11-05 Member: 22323Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Aliens mostly.</div>I was thinking about this. Wouldn't it be cool if your Kharaa model changed depending on what upgrade you had, and not only in what form you were?
A carapace skulk could be an entirely different subform, with the same HP and abilities ofcourse, but as a lifeform it would look quite a bit different. Much more bulky, like comparing a poodle to a pitbull.
The same could go for the other lifeforms and upgrades. Regen kharaa would have a moving bacterial mist around them, and redemption kharaa would apear to be phasing in and out of existance.
For the movement chamber, celerity kharaa would be much sleeker than a regular kharaa. Silence kharaa would have padding and fluid filled sacks on their appendages to dampen sound, andrenaline kharaa would be all twitchy.
Sensory chamber scent of fear would cause kharaa to have some glowing spots on their head, which would indicate the scent organs. Cloaking kharaa would obviously be (partly) invisible. Focus kharaa would have longer and more powerfull claws and jaws.
Just some examples. I think it would be cool if you could tell what you were dealing with when you would see an alien
A carapace skulk could be an entirely different subform, with the same HP and abilities ofcourse, but as a lifeform it would look quite a bit different. Much more bulky, like comparing a poodle to a pitbull.
The same could go for the other lifeforms and upgrades. Regen kharaa would have a moving bacterial mist around them, and redemption kharaa would apear to be phasing in and out of existance.
For the movement chamber, celerity kharaa would be much sleeker than a regular kharaa. Silence kharaa would have padding and fluid filled sacks on their appendages to dampen sound, andrenaline kharaa would be all twitchy.
Sensory chamber scent of fear would cause kharaa to have some glowing spots on their head, which would indicate the scent organs. Cloaking kharaa would obviously be (partly) invisible. Focus kharaa would have longer and more powerfull claws and jaws.
Just some examples. I think it would be cool if you could tell what you were dealing with when you would see an alien
Comments
I think it would be hard to use models to show what upgrade you have in first perspective. I see this working though when your looking at someone. You can visually see your soldiers becoming more advanced as they slow begin to get a bunch of gear added onto them like aerials, armor panels, grenades, meaner guns, cooler helmets, color, glowing lights, etc...
It would also look really cool for the Kharaa. Even though you can't see yourself, (maybe when you choose your upgrades, a small picture of your model will pop up with the extra organs to see if you look sweet or not...) everyone else will see your model. It would be kinda cool not seeing the same skulk over and over. One would look really bulky with black carapace, another would look really lean and elongated, and another would have noticeably brighter eyes and sensory organ growth...
I would like to see some sort of actual in HUD camera view as projected in from your helmet. So, you would see one large screen which would essentially be a camera-like picture. You could see small bits of your actual helmet in your screen too.
On-Topic:
I would like there to be some deformities from alien to alien to further enhance the illusion of the Kharaa being a brew of organic matter trying to hone the recipe for a better creature. I think having different models or animations would be stretching resources (see above) but there being variation on model skins is more realistic and if needed, the skin the critter has could be dependent on what it evolved.
Not to completely shut down the idea, but I regret to mention that NS2 is indeed a <i>budget-minded</i> title (or at least from what I hear) and something as only esthetic will not be highly considered unless it strongly compliments the atmosphere.
On-Topic:
I would like there to be some deformities from alien to alien to further enhance the illusion of the Kharaa being a brew of organic matter trying to hone the recipe for a better creature. I think having different models or animations would be stretching resources (see above) but there being variation on model skins is more realistic and if needed, the skin the critter has could be dependent on what it evolved.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its not a budget game; its a game from a start-up developer.
Its not a budget game; its a game from a start-up developer.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"We spent a lot of time talking to investors about financing NS2, but unfortunately outside money has a lot of strings attached. We really didn't want to compromise the design vision or game quality to satisfy investors, so instead we've put together a development strategy and a budget that will allow us to fund the development completely with Zen and our own money. We've done this though a combination of keeping the development cycle short, compensating team members through revenue sharing, and<b> being careful to keep the budget as lean as possible.</b>" - <a href="http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=13285" target="_blank">Quote</a>
I'd beg to differ.
Bonus: "Not to completely shut down the idea, but I regret to mention that NS2 is indeed a <b>budget-minded title</b> (or at least from what I hear) and something as only esthetic will not be highly considered unless it strongly compliments the atmosphere."
"We spent a lot of time talking to investors about financing NS2, but unfortunately outside money has a lot of strings attached. We really didn't want to compromise the design vision or game quality to satisfy investors, so instead we've put together a development strategy and a budget that will allow us to fund the development completely with Zen and our own money. We've done this though a combination of keeping the development cycle short, compensating team members through revenue sharing, and<b> being careful to keep the budget as lean as possible.</b>" - <a href="http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=13285" target="_blank">Quote</a>
I'd beg to differ.
Bonus: "Not to completely shut down the idea, but I regret to mention that NS2 is indeed a <b>budget-minded title</b> (or at least from what I hear) and something as only esthetic will not be highly considered unless it strongly compliments the atmosphere."
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously dynamic infestation will not be put in then, because it is aestethic and could be done easier and with less time invested if simply done non-dynamic in a mapeditor.
Please, you know nothing of gamedevelopment and what their budget will or will not allow. I highly suggest you stop 'shooting down' ideas based on arguements you cannot back up. There are alot of good ideas in this forum that many people would love to see in NS2, some of which were even posted way back on the old I&S forums, and it would be pretty silly if I would go in all of them and post "lol over budget sry".
You are in this forum to brainstorm with us, not to decide what can and what cannot be added due to the budget.
I think having different models or animations would be stretching resources (see above) but there being variation on model skins is more realistic and if needed, the skin the critter has could be dependent on what it evolved.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think it might be done quite well with changing texture and some shaders on the model, so it might look very different each time but using the same model , so modellers would not need to create 9+ variations of skulk model. for example when a basic skulk evolves upgrade "pretty pet" it would add to him the famous fur shader. same for onos' "mammoth" upgrade lol, i dont know much about shaders but i think it would be a good way. of course devs would choose their way ( they know better than me ;d)
for marines i like the idea that Crotalus presented, that upgrades would add extra elements to marines' suit.
Obviously dynamic infestation will not be put in then, because it is aestethic and could be done easier and with less time invested if simply done non-dynamic in a mapeditor.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flayra gave the impression that this will effect gameplay, too, thus it's not aestethic only.
I'd like to see visible upgrades on the alien models, but I'm also agreeing with Bone-Prince's guess.
No reason though, to stop developing this idea or "shooting it down" <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Obviously dynamic infestation will not be put in then, because it is aestethic and could be done easier and with less time invested if simply done non-dynamic in a mapeditor.
Please, you know nothing of gamedevelopment and what their budget will or will not allow. I highly suggest you stop 'shooting down' ideas based on arguements you cannot back up. There are alot of good ideas in this forum that many people would love to see in NS2, some of which were even posted way back on the old I&S forums, and it would be pretty silly if I would go in all of them and post "lol over budget sry".
You are in this forum to brainstorm with us, not to decide what can and what cannot be added due to the budget.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One last time, I will defend my handle on these forums - if you have a further vendetta against me - send me a personal message...
I am not on a witch hunt with a rallying chant "that's over-budget, burn it!" but I am just adding words of <i>caution </i>, I am supportive of the idea but I would like it to be polished to a point where implementing it will be efficient and pleasing to the eye (I added onto the discussion, refer to my previous posts). I explicatively mentioned that ideas that enhance the atmosphere greatly should remain, thus your backlash using dynamic infestation is somewhat unnecessary. I can go on, but just please read over my previous posts carefully - this is just an issue of miscommunication.
On-topic:
With further consideration, I think modifying a player model is not that far fetched as I originally thought - it'll just take a good amount of thinking and preparation to have all the various upgrades (assuming NS2 uses the old alien system) to be visible at the same time and be pleasing. As long as the visual cues are kept simple, there should be no hassle. From my theories (only a student at the moment) modifying the model itself will be troublesome because that'll change the map the skin uses and distorting it - animations (if done by skeletons) should be easily transferable though. If you can just graft/tack/wield on separate models like plates on a alien body without making it look out of place, this technique (not sure if it is already readily adopted) could have a lot of uses for individualizing models with minimal effort. Something to think about.
But the amount of effort it would take should be better spent in other areas for now. There are two approaches I'd take to this to not put in too much effort: have the model itself shifted in some little way, but same textures; or change the textures only.
It would make more sense to change the texture on the fly after egging every upgrade if that's possible. Normal maps? Parallax Maps?
Texture change can also have a very large effect, and I think it would do equally well in place of custom models. They would need to be very different though. If they are used with Normal Mapping, then it would be really cool, you wouldn't need custom models at all. Normal Mapping allows a model to look high poly without actually being high poly. That way when you look at a skulk, you would see different "3 Dimensional" features that are actually just textures instead of graphics intensive polygons.
I'll post an example of Normal Mapping with and without later in case people don't know what it is.
and i would like to add another shine on to this
HAVE any of your played second life, if not go play it even if it's to breifly modify avatar
the system they use breaks there avi down into sevral diff sections legs arms trunk head face so on
in each sub section are perticular sliders on a scale of 1-100 usaly, the skins used over the model are so dynamicly bound unless you seriously ill propotion one area from another skined changed area, say textures high lights between eye brows and nose bridge the skins streach and adapt across the board quit nicely
what would be the ultimate of dynamicly changeing enamy
firstly players dont need to see or have access to this apearance menu
secondly constraints need to be put in place with say if you obtain sevral up grades that would increase your model size, say parapace adds overall +20 to size regen, adren add a aditional + 5 each so if all potential upgaades that add to creature size add up to 30 extra on the size increase meter one must take that into account, also you want to leave room to allow for size upgrades based on kill ratio, 5 kills should give +1 to size to a max of + 20
so for tottal size increases one can achive thru play and choice is +50 on a sulk thats a pritty big sulk it would be come a pritty full and larger slightly easyer to attack target, it maybeable to reduce this by say a celarity upgrade my reduce your size by X amount or X percentage amount
now say we are working on the 1-100 slider meter you need to take off 50 for potentaly gained and achived up grades leaveing 50 to play with one owul need to cheack to see if there are any decreases to size from upgrades eg celartity if it is a solid size decrease or a percentaged based on that needs to be taken into acount, lets say its a soild oen for now and decrease the aliens model size by 20 thats leave a marge of sulk size rangeing from 1-20-/21-49/+50-100
look at the 21-49 range this is the turely dynamic part of it apon each death when you res this margine randomly select a number as with all sliders across the board, random sulk spike leangth, claw length body lenght teeth amount / size head shapes armor cover muscles each randomly choose a margine between there desired modifyed numbers for spikes only crapace focus my adjust spike hight hives might as well also the minus adjustment to spikes maybe silence and celarity the random iseing margine for spikes each life before modifyed by kill ratio and or upgrades could fall in the 30-40 range but each death that randomality kicks back in and your sulk now has tottaly diffrent looking spikes after each and every death or life
the second stage of true dynamic comes in to it with and when as you work for it kills will adjust your sliders as could damage taken or continual lose of blood with out re newing health all things are offered up to the plater
a celarity sulk would thrive on haveing no health or low health and being as small and agile as possable
it key roll is to damage as many marines as psosble but to never acctuly kill any oneto gain a size increase
rine addition clips of ammo scares for kills and or etches in armor. bodaleris half empty of rounds more grenades attached to belts or h strap additionaly mini my poutches and or other utility belt items, tattoos in tsa marine core style little <3 bettie images and naked poster girls across the side of military junker ships, core amounts of armor plateing rangeing form uniform to something that looks like a roller hockey monster elbows knees, bulking up on ammo before you leave the base should show on you and it should slow you down when you load a extra 40-50 kg on your back in ammo
with randomising sliders effecting color size width shape, and so on dynamicly adjusted with the effort you put in game, now you have a astetis atmosphereic messureing system that dynamicly effects game play with the choices and how are one works and or masteres there play style.
before i go i would like to point to a few other post that would touch on this topic that i have at least brought up to help colabortate my idea and fill in any grey area's
hash post 48
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=3453554438239024640&showtopic=98565&st=40" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....98565&st=40</a>
and this entire thread found in the original NS area stickyed
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=3453554438239024640&showtopic=83486&st=60" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....83486&st=60</a>
hash post 67 on wards
On the marine side, a nice place for using these submodel attachments would be on the first person view weapons. You could have various little bobbles/devices on the model that do nothing but make it look higher tech, and deploy them once you reach the next weapons upgrade level. Like the pistol drawn in the current upgrade icon, although on a smaller scale than that. It would be cool if these had a deploy animation like buildings do, but you'd have to work around problems like marines using their weapons at the point of the upgrading completing, so it might not be worthwhile.
Alien pads, bigger legs, larger teeth, scent glands, buffness from cara, bacteria clouds could all be seperate models overlapping parts of the existing models. Cloaking and redemption as described would not require any model change.
It should not be very difficult to do.
However to save time, perhaps the same models could be used on different aliens, just with different skins. Say, if Scent of Fear was represented by some small antenna like appendages, they would be brown on a skulk but on a fade they would be black.
<b>These are two different Normal Maps. They are actually just like textures, except they affect how light bounces off the model.</b>
<b>The one on the top is the original Map. The one on the right is modified to look more like bone. This will change how the model looks in game.</b>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/Tsaiyao/Helmet_N1.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/Tsaiyao/Helmet_N2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<b>These are examples of what each Normal Map looks like in game. Note that without a Normal Map, the texture would look very flat like HL.</b>
<b>Pay attention to certain details on the original model compared to the new one, such as the lower chin.</b>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/Tsaiyao/Ingame_2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/Tsaiyao/Ingame_3.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
It is certaining possible to edit the Normal Maps even more to reflect certain effects. You can deepen the Normal Map to make the helmet look more defined if you wanted to. Or you could also add your own motifs to the texture and the Map to be reflected three dimensionally in game. It is also possible to completely redesign your normal map to change the entire style of the helm. All this can be done relatively easily to achieve a huge variety of high poly looks.
It is extremely difficult to implement any serious changes to a model like you've suggested. It's just not worth it because it doesnt change much.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>I'm not changing the model, are you reading what I wrote?</b>
Using normal map is extremely easy. It can provide very noticable results. The model will stay the same, you only need ONE model file, and a few other texture files. This is much more efficient than trying to create multiple models. The examples I have up there really aren't that good. It is very possible to create dramatically different looking aliens just by changing the way light reflects off them!
Imagine you have two EXACTLY identical sets of armor, except one is made of wood and the other of steel. You will notice the difference between the two armors right away, even though they are of EXACTLY the same. This is because:
1. You notice the obvious difference of texture.
2. Even with a lack of texture, you will notice that the light is more shiny on the steel armor.
This method is VERY effective at creating models that look impossibly high poly, but without actually doing it!
i think the other 20% will be modifycations to the mess its self dependants on upgrades and so on
i woudl love a slider system like what SL incorpirates but one that adjusts to play style and or upgrades
if it was 20% textures and 80% mess modifications i think it would take a pritty heafty amount of codeing and ore productions of models
if a slider system was used there could prolly be about one model a few skins, and a lot of codeing to set ranges and how much each set of verts for each part would move as sliders increase and decrease
i think if each range on the slider was done every single percentage i think there would be some pain carpoltunnel for the codders prahaps
but i think if say ranges in the percentage silder was used say segments of 5 and ten
e.g. focus slider on your sulk 1-5 covers the sulk in millions of tiny spikes at there givent hight 6-11 still keeps all the mini spikes but also spikes on limps or apendages where you would think spikes should be present, evently 80-100 on the slider would just turn it in to a bearded dragon or a shingled back lizard.
and i dont belive players should beable to have a direct exsackt power over picking there look and or upgrade lay out, i think if a coder was very smart and wrote a nifty algarithum useing max and min ranges to randomly adjust certain sliders
prahaps, while evolveing a menu can pop up show what your current upgrade would look like with sliders sliders also show current min and max range based on kills upgrades hive lvls so on
while evolveing or renforceing this option menu allows you to pres a random button that randomly ripples a effect across the current min and max ranges of your current upgrades tech advanced and or skilled alien life form, at most you could prolly see up to three sulks per upgrade there should also be a back button to remeber up to three aliens, also if you click back a few times before you pop out of you eg them pick forwards it would wipe the two forms you skiped over
this would allow fora near on unlimited possable comobnation to tell your sulk friends apart, and yes maping as well as messing would be applied here
cheack out second life it a online SIM's like game they have there own currency and there own build program built into the game,
so yes every thing in the game was built in the game
you will notice how important it is to not allow players full contol over the silder options
basicly females all end up with huge ###### a little waste, and more offtan than not a gehetto booty, there are a numorous amount of skins in sl most player created, out side of sl, some are created to fit a exsact body shape or a range of body shapes, the newbie body texture and shape supplie with the game a engine over 5 years old now is very divers and very newbie, how ever with enough linden peole have perchase or created exsact body types by manipulating over 40 sliders to shape each indovidual part of there body then they have taken the time to skin there said boby to suit there shape, i belvie this is usaly done in poser
but sl is a huge ever growing archive of maps over a unlimited range slider system people have full control over, the full control over part is bad how ever in my opinion, as basicly every one would designe there coolest looking alien which would break game play
the coolest looking sulk would be small super fast dark colored, a ulitimate killing weapon even tho its owner could have focus redemption and a many numorous upgrades that would normaly make hte sulk look nothing like it does or lie the norm, basicly once news got around small sulks are better black hides shadows and so on that all one would see across the board.
i would not like to see that, but i would like to see upgrades useing a nifty algarythum and adjusting kharaa looks keeping a random side with constraint to always produce a near on 100% unique looking alien each time this would not also be purely for looks it would tottaly alter game play in a balanced manner
balanced how you say?
well carpace heavey upgraded aliens with lots of kils nad full health woudl be a larger target
yet slick sleak upgrades cloaking celatrity, low health and lack of kills would decrease alien size makeing the target usaly more harder to hit and spot
hum would it be nice to offer a small area where player scan adjust a few sliders jstu a few to adjsut there alien appearance
could of one them be the surface map, could player add there own surface map e.g leapard spot sulk, hum yes this would be a nice touch and it would apeal to peopelwanting to put thereown touch on theresulk
should these game sliders be game play altering or balance latering in any way, no the full control few sliders should not be game play or balance altering in any way, unless the mess and tone/map sliders
note how ever this would prolly require multiple layers of textureing msotly with psd like files with transparent area's
<b>I'm not changing the model, are you reading what I wrote?</b>
[blahblahblah]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know enough about normal mapping. I wasn't responding to you anyways.
Bottom line: I don't think any amount of time should be spent making upgrades visible anyways. It's just a gimmick, and one I personally don't like.
edit: I'm an idiot. Those aren't even normal maps in your post. Oops.
Yeah, your right, it would take more work than required for a minimal effect. Anyway you look at it, you would still need to create a slew of models / textures for all the aliens and upgrades that apply.
How about just having different looking aliens? I would find it a bit more visually appealing if there were, let's say three different texture patterns for the skulk. Not a drastic difference in each, just enough to make it seem as if you were fighting a variety of aliens instead of just the same skulk over and over...
EDIT: Fixed the normal map images...
should be fairly easy.
for marines.
lvl 1 armor standard.
upgraded armor ,thicker armor and perhaps diffrent colour combination,depending on how much armor upgrade you had.
For aliens perhaps make the skin look more hardened and thicker.like armorplates.such as what the onos already has.
thick shiny armorplates.
but the visual upgrades i can only see being handy in CO maps.
but thats just my opinion...