possably consiter this mappers
NEX9
Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44299Members
Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44299Members
<div class="IPBDescription">some one work otu a rule of thumb?</div>Eh nice post cortalus, it interesting if you read the old school fan fic you will find a ultra huge range pre made factions and enough history and back drop that any system with phase tech could and would have the power to start a war, if a single pillar of the TSA charter was taken away.
Its cos of this offical fan fic of what we are fighting for that if these systems if these factions are found to be harboring breeding or have a vessal unintensionaly over ran with kharaa, the tsa can come in and kick the door down across many planets, ship and stations with millions of diff types of archtecture. and your correct people should NOT stick to a single type of arctechture
but with that said there are still a few things to remeber tho they arnt solid and iron clad
most ships that would get cleared out and have priority would be tsa owned ships, so alot of maps will be TSA colored and or style and feel with that said there would be different era of tsa archetecture as well as diffrent qualitys and usaly the quality will degrade as the product becomes older.
So with that said i belive there are some map packs or map builder packs running around already with heavyly tsa theamed core elements to those packs
The other thing to consiter is even tho we are huge gallaxys and star systems there is still going to be coka cola soft drink, there is still going to be nike shoes, there will still be black and deck power tools
well not exsacky those names, BUT there are only going to to be a few companys that make really good quality air vents and ducts fans and so on, theres only going to be a hand full of diff companys that make lights furecent and other wise, ram door air locks, tho this isnt solid iron clad its a nice rule of thumb, not every system can produce its own airlocks ram doors lights console's monitars res node caps, vetilation ,fans, its much easyer for systems to go to other systems and perchase the required parts that system makes so there builder may build requried said ship
what would be nice is if we could get a cataloge some more fan fiction up and get a list of factions there insignia there rough age from what era they are from when was they where at their peak and what type of archtecture ones may come across in products from that system.
The system of the MOUSE, *sorry Mouse i always seam to use you as a exsample, Mouses maps have a feel to them a arctecture, mouse may or may not allow other to use his arctecture but if he wants to he could safely complie a mapers pack with all his bits, maybe add a few custom mouse sprays and suddenly if mouses arctecture is liked more and more style ships from a arctecture style mouse has made so there for maps could start popping up and looking like lots of vessals and structures are controled and owned by mouses galaxy or mouse just happens to have a heavy kharaa presence in his start system, or his factions has better ties with tsa to get aliens clear out more efficently or offtan
you would notice that if fans from mouses map get worked into other archtectures you would get the feeling mouses galaxy exsports fan as a company produces good quality solid vetilation, and same goes for if mouse use's a air lock from some one else mappers pack
i under stand not every one is a brilliant mapper and so on, but if just about every mapper realsed a mapper pack, and some erganomic traits where kept solid people could easaly, quite easly build LEGO blocks
leggo blocks that are compattable with everyone else's lego blocks
then people can just drop in leggo blocks and make entire new lvls in seconds
most door should nearly always be the same size, most palces should have disablity acess, most maintinace shafts should always be big enough to fit a golfcart of a fork lift, most air locks should stick to a rule of thumb
the best rule and way to judge erganomics is to look at the human body, every kitchen every car anything that is designed by humans for humans usaly and should consiter erganomics as this object is going to be around humans for human use
and the same runs true for the kharaa spesies as well
this if we had 20 differnt color bits of lego so much leggo we have a infinate amount at the click of a button, now imagine if every single bit of that lego was comptable with ever other peice if so desired
NOW YOU HAVE BUILDING BLOCK ANY ONE CAN USE
a few exsamples of a rule of thumb
all vents must be at opening closeing points 64X64 and each vent should run in lengths of 64, 128, 256 and 512, the internal workings of vents should not oppen up to be bigger that a stand and jump area so 256X256 area inside a vent is limits
averrage roof hight, door hight, door width, tunnel witdth hight room width and high for mor than one story
maintinace area's industrian areas with all the same things sticking to a rule of thumb, if building blocks could be made, then cherrning out a futrure map with the same arcitecture or otheres arcitecture would be shorted cuted to from months to mear days
i am sure any good mapper out there has at least two files with purly doors in it all differnt type of styles sizes, crates all diff type sizes styles
note this is a repost of what i posted following up a post in the NS 2 style thread
i hope it will inspire some people
Its cos of this offical fan fic of what we are fighting for that if these systems if these factions are found to be harboring breeding or have a vessal unintensionaly over ran with kharaa, the tsa can come in and kick the door down across many planets, ship and stations with millions of diff types of archtecture. and your correct people should NOT stick to a single type of arctechture
but with that said there are still a few things to remeber tho they arnt solid and iron clad
most ships that would get cleared out and have priority would be tsa owned ships, so alot of maps will be TSA colored and or style and feel with that said there would be different era of tsa archetecture as well as diffrent qualitys and usaly the quality will degrade as the product becomes older.
So with that said i belive there are some map packs or map builder packs running around already with heavyly tsa theamed core elements to those packs
The other thing to consiter is even tho we are huge gallaxys and star systems there is still going to be coka cola soft drink, there is still going to be nike shoes, there will still be black and deck power tools
well not exsacky those names, BUT there are only going to to be a few companys that make really good quality air vents and ducts fans and so on, theres only going to be a hand full of diff companys that make lights furecent and other wise, ram door air locks, tho this isnt solid iron clad its a nice rule of thumb, not every system can produce its own airlocks ram doors lights console's monitars res node caps, vetilation ,fans, its much easyer for systems to go to other systems and perchase the required parts that system makes so there builder may build requried said ship
what would be nice is if we could get a cataloge some more fan fiction up and get a list of factions there insignia there rough age from what era they are from when was they where at their peak and what type of archtecture ones may come across in products from that system.
The system of the MOUSE, *sorry Mouse i always seam to use you as a exsample, Mouses maps have a feel to them a arctecture, mouse may or may not allow other to use his arctecture but if he wants to he could safely complie a mapers pack with all his bits, maybe add a few custom mouse sprays and suddenly if mouses arctecture is liked more and more style ships from a arctecture style mouse has made so there for maps could start popping up and looking like lots of vessals and structures are controled and owned by mouses galaxy or mouse just happens to have a heavy kharaa presence in his start system, or his factions has better ties with tsa to get aliens clear out more efficently or offtan
you would notice that if fans from mouses map get worked into other archtectures you would get the feeling mouses galaxy exsports fan as a company produces good quality solid vetilation, and same goes for if mouse use's a air lock from some one else mappers pack
i under stand not every one is a brilliant mapper and so on, but if just about every mapper realsed a mapper pack, and some erganomic traits where kept solid people could easaly, quite easly build LEGO blocks
leggo blocks that are compattable with everyone else's lego blocks
then people can just drop in leggo blocks and make entire new lvls in seconds
most door should nearly always be the same size, most palces should have disablity acess, most maintinace shafts should always be big enough to fit a golfcart of a fork lift, most air locks should stick to a rule of thumb
the best rule and way to judge erganomics is to look at the human body, every kitchen every car anything that is designed by humans for humans usaly and should consiter erganomics as this object is going to be around humans for human use
and the same runs true for the kharaa spesies as well
this if we had 20 differnt color bits of lego so much leggo we have a infinate amount at the click of a button, now imagine if every single bit of that lego was comptable with ever other peice if so desired
NOW YOU HAVE BUILDING BLOCK ANY ONE CAN USE
a few exsamples of a rule of thumb
all vents must be at opening closeing points 64X64 and each vent should run in lengths of 64, 128, 256 and 512, the internal workings of vents should not oppen up to be bigger that a stand and jump area so 256X256 area inside a vent is limits
averrage roof hight, door hight, door width, tunnel witdth hight room width and high for mor than one story
maintinace area's industrian areas with all the same things sticking to a rule of thumb, if building blocks could be made, then cherrning out a futrure map with the same arcitecture or otheres arcitecture would be shorted cuted to from months to mear days
i am sure any good mapper out there has at least two files with purly doors in it all differnt type of styles sizes, crates all diff type sizes styles
note this is a repost of what i posted following up a post in the NS 2 style thread
i hope it will inspire some people
Comments
ns_spellchecker
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Pwnt. Nuff said.
I like the idea; too bad I'm not a good enough mapper to even come close to creating it.
He wants maps made by different mappers to have more of the same stuff. Like brands of equipment in maps which are laying arround. One of his examples is about the ventilation ducts, they should be made by the same company since most maps are TSA property or a company close to TSA.
Now it would seem logical that TSA has a few suppliers working for them to deliver parts for their ships, bases etc... So it would seem logical that the ventilation system in this example would be of the same brand on more maps.
Basicly what Nex9 is trying to say (in his LONG story, no pun intended <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ) We should have prefabs of objects ingame to use in maps. for example ventilation exits, equipment (production/maintenance), chairs, tables, windows etc... Also this would make it easier and faster to create new map. But might disgress into unorigionality (word?)
At least that's what I get from reading trough the post <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> I think it's a nice idea, others might dissagree...
However, things are moving towards this in NS2 anyway, since most detail in maps will probably be models instead of brushbased detail like hl1 now has...
[edit]
Just an addition: We do have lots of maps which have a theme going. With a theme I mean some hallways look similar with the wall panels used. And some areas have a similar theme as other areas of a map. But this is probably more related to getting a visual style going troughout the map.
What Nex9 has in mind is that more maps should look the same. Seems logical, but also leaves little room for the mappers own creativity. the best example is probably the wall_lab textures from eclipse and veil. If one uses those textures the map instantly gets comments like:
-Looks to much like eclipse/veil
-Change the textures used
-Not very original
Is this fair... I think not. Can we do anything about it, nope <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I still think for objects (prefabs) in maps this is a good idea though, but the real question is. Is there a demand for them?
:edit: this is so leet. it's like the days before NS was out and people all had their creative juices flowing. ahh.. what glorious days.
The back ground of the TSA and or man kind is
Phase tech was created, those that could get phase tech and advance it, horded it and shot off to each there own galaxy's to gather more resources and advance further.
There are now hundreds of factions spread across thousands of star systems, this will leave pently of room for ANY architecture style,
so when i say that, it would be nice to have mappers as they make there maps there style, to bundle up packages of there peices, stick to a rule of thumb with makeing there peices, and allow others to use there peices
we can complie a huge amount of lego, i am sure you have all played with lego or understand its concept
<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c4/Legobrick.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
every peice of lego is in some way compatable with more than one other peice of lego,
why because it sticks to a rule of thumb
<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f1/Lego.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
if each coridor of cross section stuck to a rule of thumb kept the same rough architecture thsoe peices can be used over and over again by many diffrent people
ok you got coridors that looks like this, if these where coridors
- + = ( )
right there you can see there are millions of possable combonations
--+--=-++()=-+
of how they can be stacked togther or joined togther to complete a map
if everyone shiped a pack at the end of there map and kept the same "interlocking studs" like lego does
others as well as them can reuse the same peice over and over again the same factions architecture
what you will see happen is key smaller peice's being needed since the big stuff is done out of the way
those key smaller peice will normaly take longer to make, but if you ship them in these packs as well people will come to said factions pack for said factions "ultra cool air vent with built in fan toggle switches weldable over ride destoryable vents and fan", and you will see it used across other types of arcitecture and map types, obiously there isnt going to be just one "ultra cool air vent with built in fan toggle switches weldable over ride destoryable vents and fan" in all of exsistance... or UCAVBFTSWORDVF for short
obiously there going to be more than one UCAVBFTSWORDVF but with diff styles from diff architecture
and not every new map will fit the style of the first UCAVBFTSWORDVF, or even the second and in turn unqiue peice will form and a single unique UCAVBFTSWORDVF maybe be made for a single map, but as long as it stick to a rule of thumb and is packaged so other can use it, a huge cataluge will grow
and mapping time will be cut down from months to days
serious if things stuck to a rule of thumb each default corridor could be made ramp elevator T section
if a vent pokeing tool was made er "a long cube 64X64" so it could be shiped with teh map pack each person could see the size te scale they have to work with to link there unique factions rooms, they can fill that hollowed out rectangular prims with their style ther flavor and a unlimited amount of possable link coridor /map combanations will surface, with out every one every time haveing to build a entire map form the ground up
but with tha being said some people might still want to build a map from the ground up with said style flavor every thing unique they may have a whole team of freash out of college multimedia students to waste the next month or so on a map, thats cool it will add 100% tottal new scenary the map rotations out there
but if they could stick to a rule of thumb, and release a map pack, then others can save time and benifit as well
people wont have to make entire maps they can make little things and still add to the community
lego started off with 1 , 2, 4 stud 6, 8 10 12, it then founded it needed 3 studs
they then made 2x2 2x4 2x6 2x8 2x10 2x12 and a 2x3, at some point they went up to the 16 studs
they then made 0.33 planks in hight in the same stud combonations
the then took these planks and begin makeing 4X4 4x8 4X12
then 8X8 and 8x16
as well as huge base plates rangeing up to 170 odd along and wide
since every single peice is compatable there's a infinate amount of combonations
but we are here in the digital realum and we need to stick to bit ranges
let see if we can get some lego pieces built
a coridor 256 high by 128 wide hollowed out by 8 and delete the two capping faces of the corridor reaching 256 long
lets see a coridor same as above but 512 long, then 1024, 2048 4096 and a 768
lets see a maintinace shafts/main corridors 384 high 256 wide hollowed 8, and then at the same lengths as below
lets see utility/parking/core/main shafts
i dont know i guess you would have to find out how tall a onos is and then allow for a sulk to run over the top of him for high clearance then use thats as a steping stone
I'm certainly all for having aspects of maps be visibly similar across the board, to heighten the feeling of them all belonging to the same world. In NS this is mostly achieved by the simple fact that there are only so many textures to work with - the textures are the materials of the NS universe.
However, reducing map design to such a 'lego' formula to the extent you describe sounds extremely dull, and frankly makes me feel somewhat dirty inside. If that's really what you want then consider learning the Unreal engine, which uses large pieces of pre-made geometry to piece together maps with.
This is what I want to see in NS2:
A good mix of different maps in which similarities can be noticed between them (which will most likely be done with the use of props and style guides included in the NS2TR), but on the whole are entirely unique characters in their own right. Maps excite me when they are done well and are obviously not cookie-cuts of a previous style or formation, and reducing level design to a system of choosing from a certain set of corridor types and corners is extremely restricting to a mapper as an artist, and also suggests no hope of offering anything <i>new</i> to players.
Lets use music as an example. Take your favourite 3 songs and reduce them all to their seperate instruments and parts. Then use all those parts and make 20 other songs by rearranging them and playing them back together in different orders - will it be the same? It might be interesting to listen to and have somewhat of a 'funky' factor, but I don't think it would be nearly as exciting or rewarding as listening to 20 brand new songs which are influenced by the songs preceeding it and not merely rearrangements.
In short, I hate the idea of lego NS2, but I like the idea of consistency between maps.
Quality -> -> -> -> Quantity btw
Or does it? Discuss.
Custom Texture sets are often used to simply get away from being too similar to other maps; and the fixed game components never change except slowly and slightly throughout its ongoing development.
Source is different though. You get to throw Props into the mix. As mentioned, these are simply high-poly models of... anything. Instead of brush-based handrailings, its a prop. Vehicles, computer panels, doors, lights, vents, everything.
The quality of the 'updated' feel to NS2 will, imo, be at least half dependent on the quality of its props. Hopefully the team will realize this as well as realize the best types of props. That is, the ones that dont stick out. That you see but dont notice. Run around HL2 and you'll see what i mean. All the props are everyday things placed in everyday places, which is what makes them so beautiful. The game just looks so goddamn real because of them.
If the NS2 model team went batsh*t and made dozens and dozens of techy but low-key props (while obviously also including a few crazy ones), we will have the most amazing game on the most perfect engine, at our disposal <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />:D:D
However, reducing map design to such a 'lego' formula to the extent you describe sounds extremely dull, and frankly makes me feel somewhat dirty inside.
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Ditto!
They would have to all use a limited texture set, and there would still have to be limits in place to cut the wpollys and entities.
But I believe i'd rather not have all our maps look alike. Uniqueness is the best quality. We already play the same maps over and over... now with this 'lego-like' theory, it wont be the same map, but we'd see a lot of this :
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Besides, someone could take one, change 2-3 blocks and ta-dah! a new map, made by so-in-so... no credit to the origional creator.
If ya want legos, they sell them at major department stores...