The Pictures That Were Sent To Cnn & Co.

Nemesis_Zero · November 2002

<a href='http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/11/08/detainees.pictures/index.html' target='_blank'>CNN</a> and some other news stations recieved anonymous mails with pictures that apparently show the transport of men who are believed to be terrorists or Taliban soldiers.
CNN only shows one of the pictures, more (and not so nice ones) can be found <a href='http://www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/inhalt/co/13573/13573_2.jpg' target='_blank'>here,</a> and <a href='http://www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/inhalt/co/13573/13573_4.jpg' target='_blank'>here.</a>

What do you think about such a treatment?

TychoCelchuuu · November 2002

I can't see much, but it only really looks like they are restrained. Not exactly bad, but I think I would rather be untied.

Nemesis_Zero · November 2002

Well, it's a little more severe than that: They're literally fixed into position, and that apparently on a flight that could go from Afghanistan to the Turkey - imagine being forced to keep the same position for hours, without of being able to see or hear anything.

As far as I know, this qualifies in fact as torture.

Jerry_111_Elend · November 2002

Indeed. Dont tie em up like that. Put them in a guarded room, thats all they need. It just aint right.

Spooge · November 2002

*sniff* *sniff* /me goes to get tissue

I don't see any hot pokers or cattle prods in their privates. Those men are restrained. The straps they're sitting against are not tensed so there's some flexibility.

If I remember correctly, there was at least one flight of prisoners that almost went out of control because some of them attacked men around them. Those prisoners were restrained and sedated. It's possible that this is that plane or measures taken as a result of that incident.

Don't worry Nem, they got showers and food when they landed.

Edit- Found at the very top of a quick search. Describes everything you just saw <a href='http://www.usatoday.com/news/attack/2002/01/10/prisoners-usat.htm' target='_blank'>here</a>

TychoCelchuuu · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Their escorts will feed them during the flight, most likely peanut butter sandwiches.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Well, if they get peanut butter sandwiches, it can't be so bad <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Jerry_111_Elend · November 2002

At least give em some proper seats!

Nemesis_Zero · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I don't see any hot pokers or cattle prods in their privates. Those men are restrained. The straps they're sitting against are not tensed so there's some flexibility.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

We both know very well that there is more than one kind of torture, and sorry, but nothing in that article made the whole thing seems better to me.
The facts remain that a) the prisoner is incapable of changing his position (and no, being able to twitch your arm <i>doesn't</i> count as such) b) they are blindfolded and c) that they can't hear anything.
The STASI, the secret police in Eastern Germany, used similiar means in their prisons. 'Dunkelhaft', as it was called, is being described as the most mind numbing and will breaking punishment you could get.

The article you referred to makes one thing clear: Those people, who have not yet been found guilty of anything, as I might add, are forced into this kind of restraintion, they're not even allowed to follow the most basic of humans needs, but, oh yeah, they get sandwiches.
Thanks, that changes <i>everything</i>.

TychoCelchuuu · November 2002

Yeah, the not being able to move thing is pretty bad. The article sort of made it sound like they were only stuck in their seat, but the pictures say otherwise. I'm not sure how bad blindfolds and things are, but restraining = not good. In any case, there has to be a better way.

reasa · November 2002

Yea well I would love to see the treatment those guys would have given our (USA for me) troops if it had been the other way around most likely they would be tortured then shot...think about that before you get all mushy on them.

Ramses · November 2002

That doesn't make it any better in my Opinion, reasa. I'm pretty sure that there were even worse things that "your" (USA) troops did to them than showed in those pictures. But on the other hand, this is the way war is. The "winner" is right... Again a reason against ANY war...
It's just against every human right to give someone such a treatment. And also, as Nemesis said, there is no proof of of their guilty.
Remember, most of those prisoners were just "Soldiers" who did nothing than following their "Orders"...

Nemesis_Zero · November 2002

Ramses already made the most important points.

Remember that <i>your</i> side justifies their actions by announcing that they're going to bring peace, democracy and human rights into the world.
I don't doubt that some of the restrained people on these photos are mean sons of *******, but that does in no way justify treating them like that.
You are the good guys. Behave accordingly.

Venmoch · November 2002

Now did you know that the US military is searching for the photographer and He'll get a nice fat court martial for these!

Tzarcon · November 2002

Doing to them as they would to you just brings you down to their level. I do disagree with this treatment. They should at least be able to move, having to sit in the same spot for hours REALLY hurts, especially when you cant see, hear, or know how long until its going to stop, and especially when the position isn't a pleasant one.

reasa · November 2002

Try to pass this bull **obscenity** because thats what this is BULL **obscenity**, off to the familes of the 3000+ inocent people that were killed by there "organazation" and ramses they are not soldiers they are terrorists there is a difference! USA troops don't target civilians in mass murder attacks. Im sorry we didn't give them ice cream and leather seats I'll complain to my congressman about that next time I see him. Wake up people USA is not the bad guy and you are ignorrant of the world if you think other wise. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'>

TychoCelchuuu · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Nov 11 2002, 02:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>and ramses they are not soldiers they are terrorists there is a difference!</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Yah. One starts with an S and one with a T. Many terrorists think of themselves as soldiers. It's just morons like you who permeate the general feeling that they are the people go get into planes and ram them into buildings.

reasa · November 2002

Oh my god terrorists feelings are invloved MY GOD I forgot that there are GOOD terrorists and BAD terrorists

Are you a terrorist or just french please tell me?

Nemesis_Zero · November 2002

If I had ops, I'd be locking this thread here and now.

As I have not, I'll just mention that the charges against many of the men imprisoned in Cuba couldn't be justified, partly because they proved to be simply innocent civilians, partly because it was obvious that they were forced into fighting (the Taliban was known for their pretty mean treatment of refusals).

The men on these pictures <i>are</i> not terrorists, they're people who <i>could be</i> terrorists. In the juristical standards the USA once initiated themselves, that's one hell of a difference.

whiskas · November 2002

those **obscenity** deserve it, hell if i were president, those prisoners would be beaten to death with litterbox scoops and their bodies flung into a pit of hungry prisoners who await the same fate.

besides if you see the poll on the page, 80% say that their condisions are justifiable.

Moleculor · November 2002

Welp, I'm a moderator, and I'm not locking the thread. Yet.

As for how those men are treated... Welcome to Reality. Please enjoy your stay.

What they're doing is the first step in, essentially, psychological torture. They may never be touched physically, but they have to give up what information they have -somehow-, so they're being stuck in a position for hours with no clue what's going on.

Either that or the marines just don't want any of them to know what's going on, so they can't get loose. One of the two. Or maybe both.

TheRandomSin · November 2002

well would you guys prefer if we just shot them in the head instead of using precious fuel and such to transport these people who once wanted us americans dead? I say they got what they deserve. Oh yeah! and not being to hear, feel, and/or move isnt torture... torture is something like having to hold bricks in your arms, forced to walk, and have a searing hot poking crammed up your **obscenity** (first terror-country of the world)

Nemesis_Zero · November 2002

How often do I have to repeat it? <b>Many of those men were innocent.</b> None was sentenced to anything at that time, in fact, they had not even yet seen a judge.

The only, really only thing you could've gotten out of some of them by this psychological torture is their last grocery list.
Oh, and last time I checked, the majoritys opinion can not be equalled with guilt.

Dezmodium · November 2002

I hate to break it to you guys but technically the US is not at war with the taliban because it is not a state. So therefore international laws on the treatment of POW's do not apply. Basically, we have free rein to kill them in a horrible fashion if we so please. President Bush may be stupid, but he sure did pick his potatos right on this particular area. It may be messed up but this is what our government chose to do, and it is well under their rights.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'>

I'm starting to really get **obscenity** off at our (the US) government for its shady war tactics. Especially the way that they try to get public backing for it. "To protect freedom, we must forfeit our liberties. To have peace, we must fight a prolonged war." etc. and so and so forth. Just be sure to take your <a href='http://www.disinfo.com/pages/article/id1149/pg1/' target='_blank'>Soma</a> and you won't even care about what <a href='http://www.counterpunch.org/floyd1101.html' target='_blank'>our government</a> does to innocent poeple. Not only that but I can sort of sympathize with palastinians for what they have to <a href='http://www.iacenter.org/jenin_photos.htm' target='_blank'>endure and suffer</a> through. That environment creates a horrible <a href='http://www.glennbeck.com/news/04252002.shtml' target='_blank'>living condition.</a>

Visit the links at your own risk. I could post a million more but I think that this will do for now.
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fixed link - Nov. 11

TychoCelchuuu · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Nov 11 2002, 04:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I forgot that there are GOOD terrorists and BAD terrorists

Are you a terrorist or just french please tell me?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Noh, there's just bad terrorists and NOT terrorists. The people on the plane may be the second.

Rob · November 2002

This one's bound for the big boom. I think all relevant comments have been made.

The Pictures That Were Sent To Cnn & Co.

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