<!--quoteo(post=1568300:date=Sep 28 2006, 05:36 AM:name=Skydancer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Skydancer @ Sep 28 2006, 05:36 AM) [snapback]1568300[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The line is blurred by each team's respective skill in pub play. Two hives won't save you from a good team of marines and viceversa one hive doesn't mean doom for the aliens. I've seen so many comebacks that I never think I'm winning/losing before the final rush. And I like the mid game, both pub and competitive, because with upgrades and res for lifeforms it truely shows off how the teams are managing their res (you have more options to choose) to try to get the upper edge, and unless you've got lots of fades or oni on your trail, you may never know what you can still do. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the team is good enough to overcome the aliens getting the second hive up (without a ninja SG rush anyways) then they are good enough to prevent the second hive from going up in the first place, which basically is what happens almost every game marines win. Ninja PG's can change alot, but good alien teams don't really fall for it other then once in a blue moon.
I prefer longer Games. The best Memorys of NS I have are those Games in 1.04 where 2 Player met each other, and suddenly the Place swarms with a megaphat Battle. I miss the Times where Games could' last several Hours.
<!--quoteo(post=1568304:date=Sep 28 2006, 06:29 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swiftspear @ Sep 28 2006, 06:29 AM) [snapback]1568304[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If the team is good enough to overcome the aliens getting the second hive up (without a ninja SG rush anyways) then they are good enough to prevent the second hive from going up in the first place, which basically is what happens almost every game marines win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then the marines let the hive go up, but I don't think they did it by purpose... Maybe the aliens were not as crappy. Balance can always shift due to unexpected situations, and that's what sets apart different teams, the ability to handle them. If an alien team slips up a hive without the marines knowing or reacting fast enough, it could be both the aliens acting cunningly or the marines slacking, or a mixture of both. It's not always the marines' pace to decide a game, it's the winning team's pace, otherwise we could reverse sides and say the aliens weren't good enough to take a hive or that if they play well they will always get another up. Or as an other example, if the aliens are good enough to stop a HA train in its tracks, then they are good enough to prevent the marine team from getting them. It's the basic concept that ns is built around: who acts better, faster and has good reflexive adaptment wins
<!--quoteo(post=1568317:date=Sep 28 2006, 10:10 AM:name=Skydancer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Skydancer @ Sep 28 2006, 10:10 AM) [snapback]1568317[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Then the marines let the hive go up, but I don't think they did it by purpose... Maybe the aliens were not as crappy. Balance can always shift due to unexpected situations, and that's what sets apart different teams, the ability to handle them. If an alien team slips up a hive without the marines knowing or reacting fast enough, it could be both the aliens acting cunningly or the marines slacking, or a mixture of both. It's not always the marines' pace to decide a game, it's the winning team's pace, otherwise we could reverse sides and say the aliens weren't good enough to take a hive or that if they play well they will always get another up. Or as an other example, if the aliens are good enough to stop a HA train in its tracks, then they are good enough to prevent the marine team from getting them. It's the basic concept that ns is built around: who acts better, faster and has good reflexive adaptment wins <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The hive gets dropped between 3:30-5:30 minutes, or the alien team loses. There is no way the aliens can "slip up a hive while the marines weren't looking", there are only 2 hive locations and as soon as the 4 minute mark hits a competent marine team is checking both obsessively because if they can take down that first hive their chances of winning come very nearly to 100%. The second hive in NS is the only part of the game seriously in contention, a good alien team vs a good marine team it's a matter of how the game in total went for both teams up the the second hive point who manages to keep it or take it down. After the second hive's fate has been determined the game is virtually over, the team that achieves their goal has their chances of winning jump to somewhere around 95%. There's no good reason the game of NS has to end at the second hive, it's just bad design.
You rarely find a pub these days where the majority of players don't know the basics of the second hive rule in NS. At least half of the team will at any given time. In competitive play the situation is exacerbated 100 fold. Frankly if the best argument you can muster is that the aliens can "slip up the second hive" then you probably shouldn't be arguing at all because you clearly do not understand the way the game plays right now very well.
Yeah, the two-hive lockdown is a death sentance for the Alien team, and can occour very, very fast...
Hell, even metagame, I can only think of a couple ways to take back that second hive... and all of them involve having enough res to have put up that hive in the first place, not to mention the team working togather more than is likely on a pub. (Maybe even a clan...) <!--quoteo(post=1568053:date=Sep 26 2006, 04:23 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RobB @ Sep 26 2006, 04:23 PM) [snapback]1568053[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->..no, this is not taken from Dystopia's Heavyarmor Model, I had this Idea way before I happened to see that Game in Action.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's an idea that far predates Dys, so I doubt anyone would have accused you of that... <!--quoteo(post=1568310:date=Sep 28 2006, 08:25 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RobB @ Sep 28 2006, 08:25 AM) [snapback]1568310[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I prefer longer Games. The best Memorys of NS I have are those Games in 1.04 where 2 Player met each other, and suddenly the Place swarms with a megaphat Battle. I miss the Times where Games could' last several Hours.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sadly, I think alot of that had to do with the fact that both sides were leaning strategies, or even just the map... and there was a LOT of turret creep...
<!--quoteo(post=1568355:date=Sep 28 2006, 02:20 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Sep 28 2006, 02:20 PM) [snapback]1568355[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out how we're going to fix lockdowns... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> By which, I assume you mean you're open to suggestions. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Alcapwn"War is the science of destruction" - John AbbotJoin Date: 2003-06-21Member: 17590Members
Having Four hive's in a map could solve the two-hive lockdown problem.
The aliens would still only be able to build 3 hives max; but an extra one would be lying around just in-case the marines do get an early 2 hive lockdown; the aliens would still be able to get 2 hives aswell.
<!--quoteo(post=1568355:date=Sep 28 2006, 09:20 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Sep 28 2006, 09:20 PM) [snapback]1568355[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> We're definitely going to fix the lockdown problem for the next NS game and I hope we can smooth out the victory slope as well.
I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out how we're going to fix lockdowns... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Often is it needed to put some Stress on the Marines. In 1.04 was the Ability to build 2 Hives at once one of those.
Plus... one thing still bugs me (I haven't played in a While so I can't say if it is still in, but): PING OF DEATH. It's rediculous. The Bacteria as whole is the Hivemind, not only the Hive itself. With the excuse for PoD (Bacteria can not upkeep needs for Playercreatures) there wouldn't be the Possiblity to form a Hive in the first. Hives just p##p the Aliens out, they don't Control em, they are just defended for the Reason of holding the Birthplace. In my Eyes.
Actually, I'd kinda like the PoD to be extended to the marine side too, once the IPs <i>and</i> CC are down...
I'd taken it as the Hive was basically feuling the nano-gridlock, and without at least one the military nanites the TSAF brought were able to attack the aliens directly...
Therefore, why shouldn't the enviroment slowly become more hostile to the remaining humans? The Kharaa are spawned to attack the humans directly... so what if they prove ineffective at rooting out the remaining 'impurities'? The bacterium are basically converting the ship anyway...
Oi, if nothing else, get another more lore based manual up... Even with it's inaccuracies, I prefered it to the current one...
<!--quoteo(post=1568360:date=Sep 28 2006, 09:45 PM:name=Andrew_Fireborn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Andrew_Fireborn @ Sep 28 2006, 09:45 PM) [snapback]1568360[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Actually, I'd kinda like the PoD to be extended to the marine side too, once the IPs <i>and</i> CC are down...
I'd taken it as the Hive was basically feuling the nano-gridlock, and without at least one the military nanites the TSAF brought were able to attack the aliens directly...
Therefore, why shouldn't the enviroment slowly become more hostile to the remaining humans? The Kharaa are spawned to attack the humans directly... so what if they prove ineffective at rooting out the remaining 'impurities'? The bacterium are basically converting the ship anyway... Oi, if nothing else, get another more lore based manual up... Even with it's inaccuracies, I prefered it to the current one... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actualy... the installations have/had their very own Nanoarmy, and the Bacterium was still able to get the Foot in the door to finish the first Hive before the Alarm did go off. That's something I don't understand. On the one side the Bacterium is able to overwhelm the more or less militaristic Nanites in the Installation, but on the other Hand can not hold on against the Nanos when the Hives are gone? I mean, hello? What the Hell? They where able to before! Giving the all "Quickevolution" Stuff the Manual says over the Aliens, they are able to adapt to the Thread of military Grade Nanites. However, Aliens are Bacterial Clusters formed up to work against the other Clusters (Marines), who in Turn have nothing to save them.
I'm fully with Swiftspear on this topic (see pg 3).
Imagine NS is a bucket of water...it's been sitting around stagnating for a while now, evaporated some so its water level sits lower down the buckets side...
A straight port of NS onto the Source engine would be like pouring fresh water into the bucket, but it would dilute all the muck that has accumulated in the bucket over the years. What NS:S really needs is a full replacement of this water, so by the end it is utterly fresh <i>but</i>....is still the same bucket of water.
Comments
The line is blurred by each team's respective skill in pub play. Two hives won't save you from a good team of marines and viceversa one hive doesn't mean doom for the aliens. I've seen so many comebacks that I never think I'm winning/losing before the final rush. And I like the mid game, both pub and competitive, because with upgrades and res for lifeforms it truely shows off how the teams are managing their res (you have more options to choose) to try to get the upper edge, and unless you've got lots of fades or oni on your trail, you may never know what you can still do.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the team is good enough to overcome the aliens getting the second hive up (without a ninja SG rush anyways) then they are good enough to prevent the second hive from going up in the first place, which basically is what happens almost every game marines win. Ninja PG's can change alot, but good alien teams don't really fall for it other then once in a blue moon.
If the team is good enough to overcome the aliens getting the second hive up (without a ninja SG rush anyways) then they are good enough to prevent the second hive from going up in the first place, which basically is what happens almost every game marines win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then the marines let the hive go up, but I don't think they did it by purpose... Maybe the aliens were not as crappy. Balance can always shift due to unexpected situations, and that's what sets apart different teams, the ability to handle them. If an alien team slips up a hive without the marines knowing or reacting fast enough, it could be both the aliens acting cunningly or the marines slacking, or a mixture of both.
It's not always the marines' pace to decide a game, it's the winning team's pace, otherwise we could reverse sides and say the aliens weren't good enough to take a hive or that if they play well they will always get another up. Or as an other example, if the aliens are good enough to stop a HA train in its tracks, then they are good enough to prevent the marine team from getting them. It's the basic concept that ns is built around: who acts better, faster and has good reflexive adaptment wins
Then the marines let the hive go up, but I don't think they did it by purpose... Maybe the aliens were not as crappy. Balance can always shift due to unexpected situations, and that's what sets apart different teams, the ability to handle them. If an alien team slips up a hive without the marines knowing or reacting fast enough, it could be both the aliens acting cunningly or the marines slacking, or a mixture of both.
It's not always the marines' pace to decide a game, it's the winning team's pace, otherwise we could reverse sides and say the aliens weren't good enough to take a hive or that if they play well they will always get another up. Or as an other example, if the aliens are good enough to stop a HA train in its tracks, then they are good enough to prevent the marine team from getting them. It's the basic concept that ns is built around: who acts better, faster and has good reflexive adaptment wins
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The hive gets dropped between 3:30-5:30 minutes, or the alien team loses. There is no way the aliens can "slip up a hive while the marines weren't looking", there are only 2 hive locations and as soon as the 4 minute mark hits a competent marine team is checking both obsessively because if they can take down that first hive their chances of winning come very nearly to 100%. The second hive in NS is the only part of the game seriously in contention, a good alien team vs a good marine team it's a matter of how the game in total went for both teams up the the second hive point who manages to keep it or take it down. After the second hive's fate has been determined the game is virtually over, the team that achieves their goal has their chances of winning jump to somewhere around 95%. There's no good reason the game of NS has to end at the second hive, it's just bad design.
You rarely find a pub these days where the majority of players don't know the basics of the second hive rule in NS. At least half of the team will at any given time. In competitive play the situation is exacerbated 100 fold. Frankly if the best argument you can muster is that the aliens can "slip up the second hive" then you probably shouldn't be arguing at all because you clearly do not understand the way the game plays right now very well.
Hell, even metagame, I can only think of a couple ways to take back that second hive... and all of them involve having enough res to have put up that hive in the first place, not to mention the team working togather more than is likely on a pub. (Maybe even a clan...) <!--quoteo(post=1568053:date=Sep 26 2006, 04:23 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RobB @ Sep 26 2006, 04:23 PM) [snapback]1568053[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->..no, this is not taken from Dystopia's Heavyarmor Model, I had this Idea way before I happened to see that Game in Action.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's an idea that far predates Dys, so I doubt anyone would have accused you of that... <!--quoteo(post=1568310:date=Sep 28 2006, 08:25 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RobB @ Sep 28 2006, 08:25 AM) [snapback]1568310[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I prefer longer Games. The best Memorys of NS I have are those Games in 1.04 where 2 Player met each other, and suddenly the Place swarms with a megaphat Battle. I miss the Times where Games could' last several Hours.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sadly, I think alot of that had to do with the fact that both sides were leaning strategies, or even just the map... and there was a LOT of turret creep...
I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out how we're going to fix lockdowns...
The aliens would still only be able to build 3 hives max; but an extra one would be lying around just in-case the marines do get an early 2 hive lockdown; the aliens would still be able to get 2 hives aswell.
We're definitely going to fix the lockdown problem for the next NS game and I hope we can smooth out the victory slope as well.
I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out how we're going to fix lockdowns...
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Often is it needed to put some Stress on the Marines.
In 1.04 was the Ability to build 2 Hives at once one of those.
Plus... one thing still bugs me (I haven't played in a While so I can't say if it is still in, but): PING OF DEATH.
It's rediculous. The Bacteria as whole is the Hivemind, not only the Hive itself. With the excuse for PoD (Bacteria can not upkeep needs for Playercreatures) there wouldn't be the Possiblity to form a Hive in the first.
Hives just p##p the Aliens out, they don't Control em, they are just defended for the Reason of holding the Birthplace. In my Eyes.
I'd taken it as the Hive was basically feuling the nano-gridlock, and without at least one the military nanites the TSAF brought were able to attack the aliens directly...
Therefore, why shouldn't the enviroment slowly become more hostile to the remaining humans? The Kharaa are spawned to attack the humans directly... so what if they prove ineffective at rooting out the remaining 'impurities'? The bacterium are basically converting the ship anyway...
Oi, if nothing else, get another more lore based manual up... Even with it's inaccuracies, I prefered it to the current one...
Actually, I'd kinda like the PoD to be extended to the marine side too, once the IPs <i>and</i> CC are down...
I'd taken it as the Hive was basically feuling the nano-gridlock, and without at least one the military nanites the TSAF brought were able to attack the aliens directly...
Therefore, why shouldn't the enviroment slowly become more hostile to the remaining humans? The Kharaa are spawned to attack the humans directly... so what if they prove ineffective at rooting out the remaining 'impurities'? The bacterium are basically converting the ship anyway...
Oi, if nothing else, get another more lore based manual up... Even with it's inaccuracies, I prefered it to the current one...
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actualy... the installations have/had their very own Nanoarmy, and the Bacterium was still able to get the Foot in the door to finish the first Hive before the Alarm did go off. That's something I don't understand.
On the one side the Bacterium is able to overwhelm the more or less militaristic Nanites in the Installation, but on the other Hand can not hold on against the Nanos when the Hives are gone? I mean, hello? What the Hell? They where able to before! Giving the all "Quickevolution" Stuff the Manual says over the Aliens, they are able to adapt to the Thread of military Grade Nanites. However, Aliens are Bacterial Clusters formed up to work against the other Clusters (Marines), who in Turn have nothing to save them.
Do I make any Sense? I doubt it O_o
Imagine NS is a bucket of water...it's been sitting around stagnating for a while now, evaporated some so its water level sits lower down the buckets side...
A straight port of NS onto the Source engine would be like pouring fresh water into the bucket, but it would dilute all the muck that has accumulated in the bucket over the years. What NS:S really needs is a full replacement of this water, so by the end it is utterly fresh <i>but</i>....is still the same bucket of water.
But, that's not happening.