Calculus Help?

LikuLiku I, am the Somberlain. Join Date: 2003-01-10 Member: 12128Members
<div class="IPBDescription">A friend of mine can't figure this out.</div> My friend is in Calculus and being dumb, I can't help. Finding help for the exact type of problem she needs help with online isn't easy to find, and we haven't found anything. This would probably be the best place possible to find help for it. We're not really looking for the answer, but how to solve it.

The problem:

Determine the values of b and c such that the function is continuous on the entire real line.

<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->f(x)={ x+1,         1<x<3
       x^2+bx+c,  |x-2|> or equal to 1<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->

Comments

  • tankefugltankefugl One Script To Rule Them All... Trondheim, Norway Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    H'okay. For the function to be continous for the entire lines requires that the separate functions it consists of are continous (which they clearly are), and that it is continous in the points x=1 and x=3, which are the points the function switches:

    Let's separate this function.

    f1(x) = x + 1
    f2(x) = x^2 + bx + c

    Now, for each of the two points (x=1 and 3), you must ensure that f1 = f2. Also, each of these points' derivates must be equal.

    f1(x) = f2(x) and f1'(x) = f2'(x) for x = {1, 3}

    Derivating these equations should be easy, and it should yield enough equations for a linear solution to appear.

    Intuitively, however, it seems like there are no b and c for which the function is continous, since the derivate of f1 would be 1 for all values of x, and since f2 is a positive parabel, its derivate would always be increasing, thus never equal one more than once.
  • FilthyLarryFilthyLarry Join Date: 2003-08-31 Member: 20423Members
    edited July 2005
    <!--QuoteBegin-tankefugl+Jul 30 2005, 09:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tankefugl @ Jul 30 2005, 09:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> H'okay. For the function to be continous for the entire lines requires that the separate functions it consists of are continous (which they clearly are), and that it is continous in the points x=1 and x=3, which are the points the function switches:

    Let's separate this function.

    f1(x) = x + 1
    f2(x) = x^2 + bx + c

    Now, for each of the two points (x=1 and 3), you must ensure that f1 = f2. Also, each of these points' derivates must be equal.

    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I pretty much agree with everything up to this point. However I don't recall continuity requiring that f1'(x) = f2'(x).

    So you end up eventually with x^2 -3x +4 for a solution

    For a function to be continuous at a point x0 for instance what you are really saying is that : lim x-> x0 f(x) = f(x0). In other words where you expect the function to go by looking at the "run up" to the point x0 is the same as where the function actually ends up i.e. f(x0).

    In this case because we are dealing with a function split up into two pieces in order to analyze the "run up" you must look at both functions because you have different definitions for points less than x0 and points greater than x0 . I.E.

    lim x->1 f1(x) = f2(x) so this gives us 2 = 1 + b + c (1)
    and lim x->3 f1(x) = f2(x) so this gives us 4 = 9 +3b + c (2)

    then just solve for b and c given the simultaneous equations (1) and (2)

    As far as derivate goes: IMO the only requirement for a continuous function is that a derivative exists at all points. Which it does for these two functions.
  • DOOManiacDOOManiac Worst. Critic. Ever. Join Date: 2002-04-17 Member: 462Members, NS1 Playtester
    I just wanted to say:

    Calculus! :O
    AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
  • kill4thrillskill4thrills Join Date: 2004-06-24 Member: 29506Members, Constellation
    omg thanks for reminding me of how much i hate this stuff <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    still have nightmares about math exams
  • MulletMullet Join Date: 2003-04-28 Member: 15910Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-DOOManiac+Jul 30 2005, 08:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DOOManiac @ Jul 30 2005, 08:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just wanted to say:

    Calculus! :O
    AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Calc? I want to say MATH 124 AHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh newb math!!
  • Cold_NiTeCold_NiTe Join Date: 2003-09-15 Member: 20875Members
    edited July 2005
    I have to say this is probably one of the greatest forums of all time.

    That is all.
  • reasareasa Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8010Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-tankefugl+Jul 30 2005, 09:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tankefugl @ Jul 30 2005, 09:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> H'okay. For the function to be continous for the entire lines requires that the separate functions it consists of are continous (which they clearly are), and that it is continous in the points x=1 and x=3, which are the points the function switches:

    Let's separate this function.

    f1(x) = x + 1
    f2(x) = x^2 + bx + c

    Now, for each of the two points (x=1 and 3), you must ensure that f1 = f2. Also, each of these points' derivates must be equal.

    f1(x) = f2(x) and f1'(x) = f2'(x) for x = {1, 3}

    Derivating these equations should be easy, and it should yield enough equations for a linear solution to appear.

    Intuitively, however, it seems like there are no b and c for which the function is continous, since the derivate of f1 would be 1 for all values of x, and since f2 is a positive parabel, its derivate would always be increasing, thus never equal one more than once. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Dude...dude...

    Dude.

    No math on the forums.

    Ever.
  • BulletHeadBulletHead Join Date: 2004-07-22 Member: 30049Members
    I am in a math class for students that are 2 grades ahead of me (eg, adv placement math) and I haven't a clue what that said 0o'
  • petit_fromagepetit_fromage Join Date: 2004-11-11 Member: 32752Members
    6th grade honors? lmao, i had to.
  • BulletHeadBulletHead Join Date: 2004-07-22 Member: 30049Members
    Well, excluding this past years blunder (bad teacher + bad sh*t happening at home and to friends = depression = not caring about school = failed math this year)

    Starting in 4th grade I've always been ahead of my class in Math. I got promoted to 6th grade Maths and was taking basic Algebra and Geometry while in 4th grade. In 5th grade I nearly stumbled when I couldn't memorize my times tables, till I found the pattern for the 9s times tables. In 10th grade i was taking Algebra 2 and Pre Calc
  • LikuLiku I, am the Somberlain. Join Date: 2003-01-10 Member: 12128Members
    Thanks guys we appreciate it. I'll link her in the morning. Sadly, I failed Algebra 2 and was kicked out of Math Analysis, so what you said just blew my brains out of my ****.
  • Cold_NiTeCold_NiTe Join Date: 2003-09-15 Member: 20875Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Liku+Jul 31 2005, 01:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Liku @ Jul 31 2005, 01:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thanks guys we appreciate it. I'll link her in the morning. Sadly, I failed Algebra 2 and was kicked out of Math Analysis, so what you said just blew my brains out of my ****. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Don't worry, I've taken Calculus and I <i>still</i> don't get it.
  • im_lostim_lost TWG Rule Guru Join Date: 2003-04-26 Member: 15861Members
    You don't need calculus to solve this problem. Just plug in x = 1 into both equations, and set those equal to each other. Then plug in x = 3, and set those equations equal. You get two equations and two unknowns, which is Algebra 2 material.
  • tankefugltankefugl One Script To Rule Them All... Trondheim, Norway Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    <!--QuoteBegin-FilthyLarry+Jul 31 2005, 04:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Jul 31 2005, 04:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As far as derivate goes: IMO the only requirement for a continuous function is that a derivative exists at all points. Which it does for these two functions. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ah, that is correct. My bad -- then a solution absolutely exists.
  • SnidelySnidely Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13098Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Cold NiTe+Jul 31 2005, 02:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold NiTe @ Jul 31 2005, 02:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Liku+Jul 31 2005, 01:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Liku @ Jul 31 2005, 01:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thanks guys we appreciate it. I'll link her in the morning. Sadly, I failed Algebra 2 and was kicked out of Math Analysis, so what you said just blew my brains out of my ****. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Don't worry, I've taken Calculus and I <i>still</i> don't get it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I've taken calculus and promptly forgot all about it after passing the last exam.

    I win again, education system! You can only strip me of my ignorance for so long!
  • FilthyLarryFilthyLarry Join Date: 2003-08-31 Member: 20423Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-im lost+Jul 31 2005, 03:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (im lost @ Jul 31 2005, 03:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You don't need calculus to solve this problem. Just plug in x = 1 into both equations, and set those equal to each other. Then plug in x = 3, and set those equations equal. You get two equations and two unknowns, which is Algebra 2 material. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You do need Calculus to understand what a limit is and how it relates to continuity however. Even though in this case it did not require differentiating/integrating(sp) per se.
  • FilthyLarryFilthyLarry Join Date: 2003-08-31 Member: 20423Members
    edited July 2005
    <!--QuoteBegin-tankefugl+Jul 31 2005, 05:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tankefugl @ Jul 31 2005, 05:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-FilthyLarry+Jul 31 2005, 04:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Jul 31 2005, 04:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As far as derivate goes: IMO the only requirement for a continuous function is that a derivative exists at all points. Which it does for these two functions. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ah, that is correct. My bad -- then a solution absolutely exists. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sounds good <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Its been a long time since I've done this kinda thing, so I'm glad we reached a consensus.
  • NarfwakNarfwak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
    Bah, I thought tanke was right about the derivatives being equal thing. Then again, I failed Calc 2 three times last year . . . even though I had already passed it at a different school. GG me.
  • tankefugltankefugl One Script To Rule Them All... Trondheim, Norway Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    Well, you can use derivates to prove continuity, but you can't use the lack of derivates to prove discontinuity. That's what I did wrong <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • Cold_NiTeCold_NiTe Join Date: 2003-09-15 Member: 20875Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Jul 31 2005, 05:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Jul 31 2005, 05:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cold NiTe+Jul 31 2005, 02:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold NiTe @ Jul 31 2005, 02:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Liku+Jul 31 2005, 01:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Liku @ Jul 31 2005, 01:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thanks guys we appreciate it. I'll link her in the morning. Sadly, I failed Algebra 2 and was kicked out of Math Analysis, so what you said just blew my brains out of my ****. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Don't worry, I've taken Calculus and I <i>still</i> don't get it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I've taken calculus and promptly forgot all about it after passing the last exam.

    <b>I win again, education system! You can only strip me of my ignorance for so long!</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    lol that reminds me of the "Laugh it up Vercetti" line.

    Ahh blessed ignorance.
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