Alcapwn"War is the science of destruction" - John AbbotJoin Date: 2003-06-21Member: 17590Members
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jul 26 2005, 02:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jul 26 2005, 02:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Let’s not forget that during Lincoln’s time half our entire nation had just split away <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Look alive buddy, Our nation pretty much IS split up. The numbers, if you take a nation wide poll are pretty close too 50/50 support for the war. Which, pretty much, is what this thread is about. "Hating America" these days is, "We like there money, but not there people, or goverment".
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jul 26 2005, 11:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jul 26 2005, 11:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Jul 26 2005, 07:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Jul 26 2005, 07:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> this has to be the sickest thing ive read in a long time <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The truth usually isn't very pleasant.
It's easy to say you would never want to go to war for oil when you have a cheap supply of oil on tap.
When your everyday life begins to become affected, even hampered by a lack of oil, or any other important resource, most people will change their opinions fairly quickly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ready to shed (innocent) blood in order to maintain your own way of life? you arent worthy of it, then. and neither is anyone else who even explores the thought.
* moral man built on the foundation of the religion he follows, will do what he sets his mind to, one of the most influential global figures (I’m sure some of you are going to think of something else I could add here) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mr Bush is undoubtedly one of the most influential figures in the history of the US. He is the one that managed to bring the worlds opinion of the US to new and never equaled heigths! He and is staff is ever so creative in making new friends. Last great example: The G8 meeting, where Tony Blair, most loyal ally to the US, had expected some assistance in questions like lowering the trade restrictions for third world contries or the emission reduction ... Mr Bush of course was so insightful to bash him off and explain that the alliance and friendship between the US and UK are greater than a simple give and take. The US don't measure the Brits engagement in Iraq in such petty things like political assistance and repaying favors, that would diminish the worth of the alliance wouldn't it? That reminds me of a story about an elephant and porcelain ... You can bet that Mr Blair will think twice before doing any favors for the US again ...
As for the moral foundations... This man is a politician that means he has no moral values except those the voters expect him to have. If the voters are faithful he will pray to god when making desicions. If his core voters were 25 year old satanists he would wear Dimmu Borgir T-shirts and sacrifice goats in the Oval Office while raping his doughters ... [/SARCASM]
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> * the lie: WMD's in Iraq, which is now known to have not been a lie at all, but merely insufficient information, based on British Intelligence which is still supported by all available facts. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ohhh interesting... which facts? That the Iraqi Scud variant (Al Samoud) was exceeding the UN restrictions? Yes thats right! It flys 162 miles while it was allowed to travel 150! What a marvelous improvement the Iraqis had undergone in 30 Years of development! They managed to increase the range by 12 miles! Measured without warhead of course...
Oh! I forgot, there was a larger variant able to reach 190 miles or so! Without warhead... Damn, now im relieved that this threat is elimianted! Of course this technological masterpiece is only outshined by Iraqi WMD production capabilities and all that progress happened while Iraq was not even able to maintain their most fundamential industrial facilities because of the embargo. Wow, if anybody had told that to the UN, maybe they would not have supported the US. Oh, wait... their weapon inspectors did say so and they did not support the US ... well that would explain something, wouldn't it?
But, Uhh no, Saddam was a supporter of terrorists and Al Quaeda ... hmm wait, there was no evidences for this either and Saddam was oppressing religion during his reing ... wait something is smelling here ... hmm it's BS! <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (ironically Bush never was involved in the lie part, which leads you to believe that someone else must have fooled him the same way they did it in a work of fiction, in order to fulfill your preconceived notions of how the government works) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is the point you miss. Politicians do not act morally if you do not force them. So it does not matter whether he was the evil mastermind or simply the ignorant idiot I suspect him to be. It is of no consequence whether it was unscrupulousness or incompetence. He is the head of state and he must be responsible for his staff and his intelligence angencies and his army! Just get this through your head: A war was started based on mistakes. A war, not a small financial scandal or something. A War. That means dead people. Remember 9/11 if you don't know how war looks like. Try not to think as republican or whatever. Just get this trough your head. This is a major abuse of power and a major embarrasment for the US. Not to mention the costs of life and money for your country. It should be in your best interest to punish this man, that is what you must understand. If this goes without consequences, it dispalys that such behavior is viable and it becomes natural for politicians to act that way. Be warned. It's your country.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> * the cost: our great soldiers go to war to prevent our innocent civilians from dying and property from being destroyed, USA is now viewed internationally as a big terrible bully who'll invade your nation, instead of a pansy who will run away at the slightest hint of resistance like before, US citizens are now much less of a target then they were up through 9/11, some allies and new members join terrorism while many others are removed, the US now has 670 hate groups and the KKK is making a major comeback with Arabs now added to the hate list, the media fight over who can put more of a spin on the paranoia about Bush-conspiracy theories to raise fear but are still losing ratings (which makes them less $$$), Karl Rove tries to point out that one of our Overt CIA agents is lying to the media and is accused of attempting to get him killed (talk about a traitor, jeeze, what was that agent thinking?), no apology from anyone... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We had this debate recently and you still have not proven your point here. As for the so called security the war has brough for the US citizens... you must me joking. Look at London? Sharm el Sheik? Do you think they would not be able to do this in the US? The situation is, if anything, getting worse from day to day. In Pakistan (the land adjacent to Afghanistan, you know where Bin Laden is operating from ...), there are approximately 10000 Khoran schools. If only one percent (doubtful...) would be radicalising its members, and each radical school would produce about 50 fighters each year, that would mean 5000 new terrorists a year from Pakistan alone ... IF only one percent is radical ... Also, increasing number of terrorists are reported coming from asia, from the Philipines, Indonesia, Bourma... Maybe some of you know what the Philipine muslims have cost the US in the past ... <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> * media response: Plenty of attention on everything going wrong in the war in Iraq, ENDLESS DISCUSSION of lies that never happened <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What lies do you mean? Please state some examples so I don't have to shoot blindly ...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There, thats a bit more accurate. Doesn't look quite so bad for Bush now, does it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Honestly? You know, I think he is the worst thing that happened to the US in this century and will have lasting consequences for your country and the world.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It would then also be fair to say you can't make that purple hippo go away just by closing your eyes and saying there is no such thing as purple hippos. With the way things are going now, nobody wants terrorists to use their country as a safe-haven for fear of gaining negative attention of the "Big Bully." If we ignore terrorists completely, then they would be free to amass finances and new recruits. Your second point of a perpetual war is a valid one. Time will tell how long we will have to maintain our "War on Terrorism."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe it would help greatly if you would stop poking the hippo with a stick. You know hippos are quite calm when left in peace, but when you come close to them ... well in Africa more people die on hippo attacks than by snakebite or predators combined. If you grasp my little allegory...
And the terrorists are free to amass finances and new recruits ...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would be apt to vote for democrats if they had more people like Ben Affleck and Joe Piscopo(*), individuals that disagreed with the President but actually had something intelligent to say other than, "Bush is worse than Hitler." If all someone can do is sling mud, I have no use of their opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ohh you prefer Britney Spears right? I bet she provided with much intelligent support for Bush ...
<!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Jul 27 2005, 06:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Jul 27 2005, 06:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ready to shed (innocent) blood in order to maintain your own way of life? you arent worthy of it, then. and neither is anyone else who even explores the thought. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not just ready, already engaged in and have done so before.
Let me count the ways...
-Utterly crushing the Native American way of life
-Mexican and Spanish-American wars
-Civil War
-World Wars I/II ( both German and the allies in World War I owed us a great deal of money from arms sales. German couldn't pay becuase of blockade )
-How many skirmishes and wars during the cold war era fought to "preserve democracy?" Democracy is our way of life, yes? So is oil, by this time... Vietnam falls here, the Bay of Pigs falls here, Afganistan (first time), etc
-Gulf War 1 ( bad Iraqis, get out of Kuwait so that we can try to get oil from them )
And that brings us pretty much up to now. It's pretty plain to see why the Arabs may hate us, and it's pretty plain to see that said hatred isn't something that's gonna go away soon. So the question is, are you <i>willing</i> to preserve your own way of life, or will you just let it be thrown into chaos?
Maynard song has some bearing here...
"Life feeds on life, this is necessary..." Though I'm sure he'd throw a hissy with me quoting him in this manner. I believe the song's about vegans, not raping and pillaging other cultures.
<!--QuoteBegin-WaterBoy+Jul 27 2005, 12:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WaterBoy @ Jul 27 2005, 12:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Look alive buddy, Our nation pretty much IS split up. The numbers, if you take a nation wide poll are pretty close too 50/50 support for the war. Which, pretty much, is what this thread is about. "Hating America" these days is, "We like there money, but not there people, or goverment". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Really, we're on the brink of civil war? What makes you think even half of the people who don't support the war in Iraq hate America.
You are failing, as so many people do, to distinguish between hating America and hating the current administration.
Our country is split in hundreds of factions with opinions on hundreds of issues; we are no where near, not even remotely close to, the way things were in 1860.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ready to shed (innocent) blood in order to maintain your own way of life? you arent worthy of it, then. and neither is anyone else who even explores the thought.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speaking of civil war a major oil shortage would be much more likely to spark one then another “war for oil” which Iraq is not entirely, although the fact it has oil is certainly a benefit.
I don’t think there is a country/nation/tribe/person that has never taken something/went to war for something from someone else for their own benefit or survival.
I mean go look at the doomsday thread on Peak Oil…clearly we need the stuff or the fires of hell shall engulf our homes and kill our first born sons.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are failing, as so many people do, to distinguish between hating America and hating the current administration.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You hit the nail. As well as many people fail to distinguish critical stances on certain policies as prejudices or animosities.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I mean go look at the doomsday thread on Peak Oil…clearly we need the stuff or the fires of hell shall engulf our homes and kill our first born sons.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. What really bothers me is that we actually fight for something that will eventually run out anyway and subsequently will be replaced and become redundant. Sad that poeple have to die for it though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not just ready, already engaged in and have done so before.
Let me count the ways...
-Utterly crushing the Native American way of life
-Mexican and Spanish-American wars
-Civil War
-World Wars I/II ( both German and the allies in World War I owed us a great deal of money from arms sales. German couldn't pay becuase of blockade )
-How many skirmishes and wars during the cold war era fought to "preserve democracy?" Democracy is our way of life, yes? So is oil, by this time... Vietnam falls here, the Bay of Pigs falls here, Afganistan (first time), etc
-Gulf War 1 ( bad Iraqis, get out of Kuwait so that we can try to get oil from them )
And that brings us pretty much up to now. It's pretty plain to see why the Arabs may hate us, and it's pretty plain to see that said hatred isn't something that's gonna go away soon. So the question is, are you willing to preserve your own way of life, or will you just let it be thrown into chaos?
Maynard song has some bearing here...
"Life feeds on life, this is necessary..." Though I'm sure he'd throw a hissy with me quoting him in this manner. I believe the song's about vegans, not raping and pillaging other cultures.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. This is a gross oversimplification of a complex history that ignores various facts. It places nearly 200 years of history that not only totally ignores the zeitgeist, but subjects history to your personal whims.
How can you judge a culture 200 years ago by contemporary morality? You can't without being unfair to the people who lived in those times. That's what cultural and moral relativity is, at least in the academic/non-political buzzword sense. Do you think that westward expansion and consequently the destruction of American Indians was the result of malicious schemes or the byproduct of Manifest Destiny, a growing population and the popularity of imperialism?
Do you really think that World War II was sparked by arms sales debts or was it more likely the crushing debts that Germany had due to the treaty of Versailles, the resulting economic depression and the scapegoating that allowed for the rise of the Nazi party? Are you contending that America's involvement in World War II was unjustified and the actions taken during the course of the war were immoral and/or illegal? Can you make such a case without resorting to an ethnocentric view?
Issues are frequently complex. Arabic sentiments toward America are a little more complex than "ZOMG! Teh aribs h8 Amerika cuz of teh warz!" It's like saying that the Civil War is the result of the North wanting to free the slaves and the South wanting to keep them enslaved. It ignores nuance and usually creates a false dichotomy.
<!--QuoteBegin-The Finch+Jul 27 2005, 10:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Finch @ Jul 27 2005, 10:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. This is a gross oversimplification of a complex history that ignores various facts. It places nearly 200 years of history that not only totally ignores the zeitgeist, but subjects history to your personal whims.
How can you judge a culture 200 years ago by contemporary morality? You can't without being unfair to the people who lived in those times. That's what cultural and moral relativity is, at least in the academic/non-political buzzword sense. Do you think that westward expansion and consequently the destruction of American Indians was the result of malicious schemes or the byproduct of Manifest Destiny, a growing population and the popularity of imperialism?
Do you really think that World War II was sparked by arms sales debts or was it more likely the crushing debts that Germany had due to the treaty of Versailles, the resulting economic depression and the scapegoating that allowed for the rise of the Nazi party? Are you contending that America's involvement in World War II was unjustified and the actions taken during the course of the war were immoral and/or illegal? Can you make such a case without resorting to an ethnocentric view?
Issues are frequently complex. Arabic sentiments toward America are a little more complex than "ZOMG! Teh aribs h8 Amerika cuz of teh warz!" It's like saying that the Civil War is the result of the North wanting to free the slaves and the South wanting to keep them enslaved. It ignores nuance and usually creates a false dichotomy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In the context I'm talking about, Manifest Destiny is one and the same with the "desire to preserve a way of life."
<a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Manifest%20Destiny' target='_blank'>Manifest Destiny</a>: A policy of imperialistic expansion defended as necessary or benevolent.
I can't judge a culture 200 years ago. I can look back with my 20/20 hindsight and see what was needed or precieved as needed, and how that need was satisfied. You're saying World War I was really started by a royal being slane in a half-botched assassination? That was just a catalyst. We didn't want a part of it, but like I said there was alot of money tied up in it. Not much more of a reason, in my opinion. Those hatreds didn't die on Novemeber 11th 1918, either. They simmered, as you said, under the treaty of Versailles. Economic depression made the German people disgruntled. Economy wiped out. Can you really blame them for being angry. Angry enough to kill? When money is more useful as firewood, what's there to have pride in?
What would happen to the US without oil? Probably the same thing. At least it will until we find a better way to live.
Now, the civil war, you should know, was never about slavery. The slaves had it pretty good compared to immigrants and indentured servants up north, if one can look past the obvious despicibles of <i>owning</i> another human life. The war was simply about the north trying to tell the south what to do. Specifically, the north may have said, "Look, we have immigrants up here who work for hardly anything. And when they collapse from exhaustion, we can simply hire new ones! Do it our way!" Much more forcefully, of course.
The south wouldn't have this. They had their own states rights. Ideologies clash for land, power, and preservation of way of life. What's happening in the middle east right now? Democracy is much better for them, no?
National governments walk a fine line. A line that frequently takes them down scary roads where lives become numbers in a spreadsheat. It's not pretty, but it's the truth. And it's not right, it's not wrong, it's not moral or immoral. It just is. All the words we use to describe such things are relative and pretty much immaterial.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rob+Jul 27 2005, 09:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rob @ Jul 27 2005, 09:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> National governments walk a fine line. A line that frequently takes them down scary roads where lives become numbers in a spreadsheat. It's not pretty, but it's the truth. And it's not right, it's not wrong, it's not moral or immoral. It just is. All the words we use to describe such things are relative and pretty much immaterial. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Is it just me or does this read like the opening to a very good book?
Also I agree. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Legat+Jul 27 2005, 06:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legat @ Jul 27 2005, 06:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As for the moral foundations... This man is a politician that means he has no moral values except those the voters expect him to have. If the voters are faithful he will pray to god when making desicions. If his core voters were 25 year old satanists he would wear Dimmu Borgir T-shirts and sacrifice goats in the Oval Office while raping his doughters ... [/SARCASM] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's completely rediculous. Certainly there are some politicians who have few values beyond "do whatever it takes to get elected", but to assume that therefore it is impossible for any president to have his own personal values is absurd. If anything, Bush has shown himself to be <i>less</i> poll-driven and <i>more</i> driven by his own values than most presidents. (Whether or not you agree with those values is another topic entirely...)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> * the lie: WMD's in Iraq, which is now known to have not been a lie at all, but merely insufficient information, based on British Intelligence which is still supported by all available facts.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ohhh interesting... which facts?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I probably mis-spoke there. I was specifically referring to the particular intelligence that was most recently in the news, regarding Iraq's attempts to buy Uranium from Niger, which came up again in the Robert Novak scandal. That intelligence is still thought to be valid, with the only point against it being that Novak disagrees. (nevermind how he would know anything about it...)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (ironically Bush never was involved in the lie part, which leads you to believe that someone else must have fooled him the same way they did it in a work of fiction, in order to fulfill your preconceived notions of how the government works) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is the point you miss. Politicians do not act morally if you do not force them. So it does not matter whether he was the evil mastermind or simply the ignorant idiot I suspect him to be. It is of no consequence whether it was unscrupulousness or incompetence. He is the head of state and he must be responsible for his staff and his intelligence angencies and his army! Just get this through your head: A war was started based on mistakes. A war, not a small financial scandal or something. A War. That means dead people.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wasn't an incompetent mistake in the Bush administration that sent us to war. We had about a half a dozen separate reasons for the war. Perhaps most importantly, the intelligence suggesting Iraq was building WMDs, mistaken or not, did not originate with the Bush administration, but had existed for years, and was sufficient to convince the majority of both the US and UK governments before Bush was ever even elected. The nations that remained unconvinced were, by and large, the nations recieving under-the-table payments from Saddam who had vested interest in his remaining in power.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Remember 9/11 if you don't know how war looks like.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, I remember. Perhaps you've forgotten that the 9/11 plan was in progress before Bush, that ultimate evil of evils, was even elected?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Try not to think as republican or whatever. Just get this trough your head. This is a major abuse of power and a major embarrasment for the US. Not to mention the costs of life and money for your country. It should be in your best interest to punish this man, that is what you must understand. If this goes without consequences, it dispalys that such behavior is viable and it becomes natural for politicians to act that way. Be warned. It's your country.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed it is my country. And <i>I</i> happen to want <i>more</i> politicians who act that way. Therefore, I consider it in my best interests to prevent any punishment of Bush.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> * the cost: our great soldiers go to war to prevent our innocent civilians from dying and property from being destroyed, USA is now viewed internationally as a big terrible bully who'll invade your nation, instead of a pansy who will run away at the slightest hint of resistance like before, US citizens are now much less of a target then they were up through 9/11, some allies and new members join terrorism while many others are removed, the US now has 670 hate groups and the KKK is making a major comeback with Arabs now added to the hate list, the media fight over who can put more of a spin on the paranoia about Bush-conspiracy theories to raise fear but are still losing ratings (which makes them less $$$), Karl Rove tries to point out that one of our Overt CIA agents is lying to the media and is accused of attempting to get him killed (talk about a traitor, jeeze, what was that agent thinking?), no apology from anyone... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We had this debate recently and you still have not proven your point here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which debate? There's a lot of points in that list, many of them completely unrelated. You can't be referring to the Novak scandal, can you? That one was completely unfounded...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As for the so called security the war has brough for the US citizens... you must me joking. Look at London? Sharm el Sheik? Do you think they would not be able to do this in the US?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well--it hasn't happened so far. It's been almost 4 years now since the last attack on US soil, and thats something.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The situation is, if anything, getting worse from day to day. In Pakistan (the land adjacent to Afghanistan, you know where Bin Laden is operating from ...), there are approximately 10000 Khoran schools. If only one percent (doubtful...) would be radicalising its members, and each radical school would produce about 50 fighters each year, that would mean 5000 new terrorists a year from Pakistan alone ... IF only one percent is radical ...Also, increasing number of terrorists are reported coming from asia, from the Philipines, Indonesia, Bourma... Maybe some of you know what the Philipine muslims have cost the US in the past ... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You may indeed be right here. But <i>at least we're doing something about it!</i> We aren't going to make all these problems go away by doing nothing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> * media response: Plenty of attention on everything going wrong in the war in Iraq, ENDLESS DISCUSSION of lies that never happened <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What lies do you mean? Please state some examples so I don't have to shoot blindly ...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh...just for example..."Karl Rove outed Valerie Plame as retaliation!", "Bush used a discredited report about Iraq buying yellowcake from Niger", and the ever-popular over-generalization, "Bush lied about WMD!"
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There, thats a bit more accurate. Doesn't look quite so bad for Bush now, does it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Honestly? You know, I think he is the worst thing that happened to the US in this century and will have lasting consequences for your country and the world. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Based on "your country", I'm guessing you are not living in the US? In that case, what are you doing arguing with me over what the US media says about the president anyway?
I think the reason why many people inside and outside of the USA are suspicious about your government is, that it is actually disassembling everything the "American dream",democracy and freemdom stands for.
Everything that made your country this free and powerful.
People are inside of the USA are worried about laws like the first and second "patriot act", which throws your great constitution out of the window. Just like european people are worried about the "european arrest warrant" which moves in a similar direction.
By following the events within your 2 last elections, noticing the uppish behaviour of the USA's government towards other countrys in this so called "war against terror" and embarrassments like Guantanamo, make many people start to ask of which kind the "democracy" is, the US want to take into the world.
The Bush administration could have counteracted many conspiracy theorys about iraq by just accomplishing some serious investigations, without any chairman with ominous connections to saudi-arabia. But nothing ever happend. Nobody was fired for an unjustified war against a souvereign state. Either they don't want to investigate, because they know that they are wrong, or they are not able to investigate what went wrong with important institution like the secret services. But then they are incompetent and presidents have been dispossessed for much more marginal things like incompetence.
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
Now that's the kind of hyperbole we're looking for. High marks there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People are inside of the USA are worried about laws like the first and second "patriot act", which throws your great constitution out of the window.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As one who is inside the USA, I am not concerned about our Constitution being thrown out the window. Specifics in the law that concern privacy issues are questionable and will be tested but these laws are not creating a new Soviet Russia. <a href='http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ucwb/20050723/cm_ucwb/isthepatriotactpatriotic' target='_blank'>Honest critique of the Patriot Act revisions.</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By following the events within your 2 last elections, noticing the uppish behaviour of the USA's government towards other countrys in this so called "war against terror" and embarrassments like Guantanamo, make many people start to ask of which kind the "democracy" is, the US want to take into the world.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not embarassed by Guantanamo but I sure know what democracy can do for a society. Contrary to radical beliefs, <a href='http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20050720/cm_usatoday/guantanamooutragehingeson5myths/nc:742' target='_blank'>Gitmo is not Hell on Earth.</a> And, freedom isn't something that's given to people-it can only be taken away. Bush makes this linguistic mistake often but the plan is to remove the regimes in these countries who demand tyrannical control (aka Taliban, Saddam).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Bush administration could have counteracted many conspiracy theorys about iraq by just accomplishing some serious investigations, without any chairman with ominous connections to saudi-arabia. But nothing ever happend. Nobody was fired for an unjustified war against a souvereign state. Either they don't want to investigate, because they know that they are wrong, or they are not able to investigate what went wrong with important institution like the secret services. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These types of investigations take place all the time. The reason you don't hear about them is that the answers don't support the anti-US establishment in the press. That, and they often require extensive reading and understanding that doesn't fit into 15 second sound bites.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But then they are incompetent and presidents have been dispossessed for much more marginal things like incompetence.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This means nothing to me. Maybe you could give some examples?
<!--QuoteBegin-Legat+Jul 27 2005, 06:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legat @ Jul 27 2005, 06:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would be apt to vote for democrats if they had more people like Ben Affleck and Joe Piscopo(*), individuals that disagreed with the President but actually had something intelligent to say other than, "Bush is worse than Hitler." If all someone can do is sling mud, I have no use of their opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ohh you prefer Britney Spears right? I bet she provided with much intelligent support for Bush ...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, I was merely using those two as an example. Every other point of view from a Democrat I saw was nothing but hate speech directed towards the President. I don't even know or care who that woman voted for.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legat+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legat)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I bet she provided with much intelligent support for Bush ...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, provide she much with intelligent support Bush, for.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legat+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legat)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe it would help greatly if you would stop poking the hippo with a stick. You know hippos are quite calm when left in peace, but when you come close to them ... well in Africa more people die on hippo attacks than by snakebite or predators combined. If you grasp my little allegory...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They flew planes into our buildings. At this point I'm sure you'll point out how something else happened first to make them do such a thing. But that still doesn't change the fact that they crashed into our buildings, and now they're the ones paying for poking the even bigger hippo with a stick.
None of it matters. At all. Why? I don't care how much you argue, how loud you yell, or how red in the face you get as you shout down the most blindly partisan lemming, they won't listen.
You have people like this...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->U.S. military
A group of systematically brainwashed fascist trained by our great government to tell other cultures that they have been doing things wrong for thousands of years and that our "freedom" is the only thing that can possibly be correct. <a href='http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=U.S.+military' target='_blank'>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=U.S.+military</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The small number of states where the majority of the citizens chose to elect a Giant Deusch instead of a Turd Sandwich for president. <a href='http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=U.S.+%22blue+states%22' target='_blank'>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?...2blue+states%22</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
see also idiot, ------, head in --- and did i say idiot? <a href='http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=liberal' target='_blank'>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=liberal</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And <b>there's nothing you can do to change it.</b>
People are born into their endless loathing. Their parents raise them as "accepting liberals" or "proud conservatives" and they turn into flame-spewing jerks who have nothing better to do than to stand on a soapbox and demonize huge demographics in a pitiful attempt to make themselves look better.
Do you want to see what this looks like on the internet? Step out of our little padded box- we are blessed with intelligent users and tough moderators, so we can actually have meaningful discussions here. Outside of our playpen, it's ugly.
That's flaming on the internet, and that's mild stuff. In real life, it looks kind of like that thread, but eighty times less informed and three hundred times more insulting.
You're powerless to stop the brigades of black-and-white pundits who wish to assimilate you into their all-or-nothing platforms, so why waste time arguing with them? Cast your vote how you see it, get it over with, and give a nice, hearty "screw you" to the stereotyping armies of Mordor.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's completely rediculous. Certainly there are some politicians who have few values beyond "do whatever it takes to get elected", but to assume that therefore it is impossible for any president to have his own personal values is absurd. If anything, Bush has shown himself to be less poll-driven and more driven by his own values than most presidents. (Whether or not you agree with those values is another topic entirely...)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you ever been actively invloved in politics? I don't mean demonstrating or anything but real political work in a party and such? I have. It is dirty. Even in the youth organisations. Politicians are like a liquid. They take on the shape of the bottle they have to fill. All of them. of course there are exception to that rule. I know one of them personally. But those people don't become head of state or anything even remotely close.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It wasn't an incompetent mistake in the Bush administration that sent us to war. We had about a half a dozen separate reasons for the war.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yet they had to use those based on inacurate information and wonder when some some "old europeans" don't buy it ....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, I remember. Perhaps you've forgotten that the 9/11 plan was in progress before Bush, that ultimate evil of evils, was even elected?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps you forgot that 9/11 was not even remotely related to Saddam, so why attack Iraq? Yes, I know, there were reasons.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But at least we're doing something about it! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, you make it worse. We had this a few days ago so let's keep it there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Indeed it is my country. And I happen to want more politicians who act that way. Therefore, I consider it in my best interests to prevent any punishment of Bush.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Very sad that your nation does not draft its soldiers atm. You possibly would reconsider.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well--it hasn't happened so far. It's been almost 4 years now since the last attack on US soil, and thats something.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes but you forget the attacks on the coalition partners and the mess in Iraq don't you? Besides, have you ever considered that there are no attacks in the US right now because it would strenghten the US populations reslove in the Iraq question?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Based on "your country", I'm guessing you are not living in the US? In that case, what are you doing arguing with me over what the US media says about the president anyway?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because the worlds economy in unfortunately tied to the dollar, so the mess your president makes falls back on all of us.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE (Legat) I bet she provided with much intelligent support for Bush ...
Yes, provide she much with intelligent support Bush, for.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go and learn to speak and write my language as well as I do yours and then come back buddy ...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They flew planes into our buildings. At this point I'm sure you'll point out how something else happened first to make them do such a thing. But that still doesn't change the fact that they crashed into our buildings, and now they're the ones paying for poking the even bigger hippo with a stick.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bin Laden planned and initiated the strike. Not Saddam. So why are you in Iraq while Bin Laden is still out there?
<!--QuoteBegin-semipsychotic+Jul 27 2005, 03:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (semipsychotic @ Jul 27 2005, 03:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> None of it matters. At all. Why? I don't care how much you argue, how loud you yell, or how red in the face you get as you shout down the most blindly partisan lemming, they won't listen.
You have people like this...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->U.S. military
A group of systematically brainwashed fascist trained by our great government to tell other cultures that they have been doing things wrong for thousands of years and that our "freedom" is the only thing that can possibly be correct. <a href='http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=U.S.+military' target='_blank'>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=U.S.+military</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The small number of states where the majority of the citizens chose to elect a Giant Deusch instead of a Turd Sandwich for president. <a href='http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=U.S.+%22blue+states%22' target='_blank'>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?...2blue+states%22</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
see also idiot, ------, head in --- and did i say idiot? <a href='http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=liberal' target='_blank'>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=liberal</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And <b>there's nothing you can do to change it.</b>
People are born into their endless loathing. Their parents raise them as "accepting liberals" or "proud conservatives" and they turn into flame-spewing jerks who have nothing better to do than to stand on a soapbox and demonize huge demographics in a pitiful attempt to make themselves look better.
Do you want to see what this looks like on the internet? Step out of our little padded box- we are blessed with intelligent users and tough moderators, so we can actually have meaningful discussions here. Outside of our playpen, it's ugly.
That's flaming on the internet, and that's mild stuff. In real life, it looks kind of like that thread, but eighty times less informed and three hundred times more insulting.
You're powerless to stop the brigades of black-and-white pundits who wish to assimilate you into their all-or-nothing platforms, so why waste time arguing with them? Cast your vote how you see it, get it over with, and give a nice, hearty "screw you" to the stereotyping armies of Mordor. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You win the thread. You can take the boat or the MYSTERY BOX as your prize.
Honestly these two political parties are so full of hatred and are so incompatible with one another that it's making the country as a whole suffer big time, in every aspect of society. It's sad that our only choices for president are George W. Bush and John Kerry. Was I the only one sitting at home during the election process saying "IS THIS THE BEST OUR COUNTRY HAS TO OFFER?!" (if you say yes I'm gonna bop you one).
Any time you have people accepting beliefs just because of their party affiliation, democracy has taken another blow. Flipping it around, the same is true when someone's beliefs are discarded just because of their party affiliation. Just listen. "Will it work?" "What are the drawbacks?" "Is it practical?" NOT "It's a liberal media circus." "Something bad happened and the Republicans are in charge, I blame them" "More liberal whining" "Just sounds like something the Bush administration cooked up"
Honest to god guys, we need to break down this two party thing through some serious cooperation, whether it all be in a legitimate third party or a legitimate third, fourth, and fifth party. Third parties just continue to fail miserably...it's not enough to rake in a few thousand more voters for a party and call it progress while the damage is still being done. We need more figures in politics that live outside of all this left and right crap and can just be viewed as individuals with good or bad ideas, and go from there. It's flat out ugly, like semipsychotic says.
Several people from UK, people from Australia and other countrys went to court, because they felt tortured there. Seems like some people never saw some nice pictures of people with plastic bags on their heads, with chains on hands and feeds sitting in the dust.
The concerns are that the US are close to loosing their democracy and freedom, because of the constant fear of terrorists. (which have been teached by CIA as long as the US needed them to fight against the soviets.) People may voluntary give up their civil rights. This is what adult and educated US citizens fear. And US government does nothing to take their fears away.
A president using middleage language ("they are bad and evil people" "they use drills to torture innocent" x_X) should be stripped of all powers now !
But I guess semipsychotic is right ^^. Each party has its own sources and calls the sources of the other party as wrong and dependent.
This is leading to another nice theory, that there are secret societys that build up competing parties just play them off against each other, and setup the synthesis they planned before (eclectic system) <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So all we are doing is playing to their hands. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Legat+Jul 27 2005, 03:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legat @ Jul 27 2005, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Based on "your country", I'm guessing you are not living in the US? In that case, what are you doing arguing with me over what the US media says about the president anyway?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because the worlds economy in unfortunately tied to the dollar, so the mess your president makes falls back on all of us. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not my point. If you want to argue with me over whether invading Iraq was smart, I'm all for it. If you want to argue with me over whether or not this is an effective answer to terrorism, go right ahead. But if you aren't <i>IN</i> the US, than I'm not going to pay much attention when you try to tell me what topics the US media has and hasn't been covering.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not my point. If you want to argue with me over whether invading Iraq was smart, I'm all for it. If you want to argue with me over whether or not this is an effective answer to terrorism, go right ahead. But if you aren't IN the US, than I'm not going to pay much attention when you try to tell me what topics the US media has and hasn't been covering.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess you are aware that US media pretty much don't cover anything from outside the the boarders except it's directly affecting the US or is a calamity of some sort. Well, its not like that everywhere in the world ...
Since we touched the topic: I have been told by some americans that many US citizens are still not aware that Saddam was not related to 9/11 and had no WMDs. Such is bad media coverage and that bothers me. It bothers me, when the great US newspapers, the supposed watchers of democracy and bane of Nixon do fall in line and transport this farce.
Also I find it funny that all of a sudden, when they don't follow the drill anymore, they are suddenly "the evil media" that dig for dirt, while they were quoted by Bush supporters about the "supposed findings" of WMDs in Iraq awhile ago. Should I dig up some links from this board when the networks were still "credible" for the war supporters? For the sake of old times you know ...
That is not a good development. That is dangerous and when you don't understand this you have a problem. At least try to understand this. Your whole media machinery fell for a ruse ( or a mistake if you prefer) and the whole nation was set up for Iraq. The tendencie of calling critical voices anti-american, unpatriotic, liberals or whatever does not make it look better either. (as well as resemlances to fashism and Hitler on the other side ... )
Whatever opinion you support, Cxwf, you must always consider, that mass media in itself carries the possibility of abuse. Mass media easily shift from an instrument of knowlege to a tool of desinformation. You should keep this in mind, and the Iraq situation is wonderful exmple on this. You could write a doctoral thesis on this. Perfect stuff.
It begins with the sources you consume. Your news sources are made for <i>you</i>. They have a target audience and the "produce" news for them. It is like any product on the market, strictly marketed and placed on a certain niche. If you want to get a bigger picture, you must either use completely independent yet credible sources ( not easy...) , or compare 2 obviously opposing positions and find the truth somewhere in the middle. Especially the US media have an issue with information centered on the US. That is why so many US citizens are astonished when confronted with the idea that those terrorists might have a deeper angenda than burning flags and destroying skyscrapers. Also, most US citizens do have a twisted concept of war, because all they see is fighting or victorious troops. No corpses, no wounded. Shock is great when footage of US troops shooting incapacitated combatans occurs. Then we talk about isloated cases ... Now all we think about is the poor policemen blown up by suicide bombers. We do not talk about the piles of recently executed Iraqis buried with bulldozers on broad daylight in Baghdad. We do not see the war that is going on under the eyes of the US occupation. We do not see how the Shi'ites are taking it out on their former opressors. <a href='http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1700981,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,...1700981,00.html</a>
There is no sensibility for the reasons for this kind of hatred and that those reasons are directly related to the US foreign politics. Of course, this is not exclusively a problem of the US! When debating the topic with europeans, they probably are aware about the middle eastern crisis and their origins. If so, the ultimate evil is usually the US. Yet they don't consider that their car runs on oil too ...
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
Now THAT is what Rapier7 was looking for. I'm sure of it. Some good old fashioned European self-righteous pretension. Though you forgot to mention how Europe knows what's better for us because they've been acting this way for centuries and believe they've learned their lesson. Of course, you realize that the smites your sending this way are based on half-assed reports from US media outlets right? hmmm....
It's also worthy of note that socio/political/cultural animosities have existed in the area of Iraq for longer than the US has existed. But, I'm certain that nobody ever died there until the US military showed up. Clearly that places all fault on the US.
<!--QuoteBegin-Terminator+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Terminator)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As she pays him, distant thunder rolls. The boy yells something in Spanish as he runs off.
SARAH What did he say?
ATTENDANT (accented) There is a storm coming in.
Sarah gazes at the thunderheads building up out over the desert. Heat lightning pulses in their depths.
SARAH (quietly) I know.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look alive buddy, Our nation pretty much IS split up. The numbers, if you take a nation wide poll are pretty close too 50/50 support for the war. Which, pretty much, is what this thread is about. "Hating America" these days is, "We like there money, but not there people, or goverment".
The truth usually isn't very pleasant.
It's easy to say you would never want to go to war for oil when you have a cheap supply of oil on tap.
When your everyday life begins to become affected, even hampered by a lack of oil, or any other important resource, most people will change their opinions fairly quickly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ready to shed (innocent) blood in order to maintain your own way of life? you arent worthy of it, then. and neither is anyone else who even explores the thought.
* moral man built on the foundation of the religion he follows, will do what he sets his mind to, one of the most influential global figures (I’m sure some of you are going to think of something else I could add here)
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Mr Bush is undoubtedly one of the most influential figures in the history of the US. He is the one that managed to bring the worlds opinion of the US to new and never equaled heigths!
He and is staff is ever so creative in making new friends. Last great example: The G8 meeting, where Tony Blair, most loyal ally to the US, had expected some assistance in questions like lowering the trade restrictions for third world contries or the emission reduction ...
Mr Bush of course was so insightful to bash him off and explain that the alliance and friendship between the US and UK are greater than a simple give and take.
The US don't measure the Brits engagement in Iraq in such petty things like political assistance and repaying favors, that would diminish the worth of the alliance wouldn't it?
That reminds me of a story about an elephant and porcelain ...
You can bet that Mr Blair will think twice before doing any favors for the US again ...
As for the moral foundations... This man is a politician that means he has no moral values except those the voters expect him to have. If the voters are faithful he will pray to god when making desicions. If his core voters were 25 year old satanists he would wear Dimmu Borgir T-shirts and sacrifice goats in the Oval Office while raping his doughters ... [/SARCASM]
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
* the lie: WMD's in Iraq, which is now known to have not been a lie at all, but merely insufficient information, based on British Intelligence which is still supported by all available facts.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ohhh interesting... which facts? That the Iraqi Scud variant (Al Samoud) was exceeding the UN restrictions? Yes thats right! It flys 162 miles while it was allowed to travel 150! What a marvelous improvement the Iraqis had undergone in 30 Years of development! They managed to increase the range by 12 miles! Measured without warhead of course...
Oh! I forgot, there was a larger variant able to reach 190 miles or so! Without warhead... Damn, now im relieved that this threat is elimianted! Of course this technological masterpiece is only outshined by Iraqi WMD production capabilities and all that progress happened while Iraq was not even able to maintain their most fundamential industrial facilities because of the embargo.
Wow, if anybody had told that to the UN, maybe they would not have supported the US.
Oh, wait... their weapon inspectors did say so and they did not support the US ... well that would explain something, wouldn't it?
But, Uhh no, Saddam was a supporter of terrorists and Al Quaeda ... hmm wait, there was no evidences for this either and Saddam was oppressing religion during his reing ... wait something is smelling here ... hmm it's BS!
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(ironically Bush never was involved in the lie part, which leads you to believe that someone else must have fooled him the same way they did it in a work of fiction, in order to fulfill your preconceived notions of how the government works)
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There is the point you miss. Politicians do not act morally if you do not force them.
So it does not matter whether he was the evil mastermind or simply the ignorant idiot I suspect him to be. It is of no consequence whether it was unscrupulousness or incompetence. He is the head of state and he must be responsible for his staff and his intelligence angencies and his army!
Just get this through your head: A war was started based on mistakes. A war, not a small financial scandal or something. A War. That means dead people. Remember 9/11 if you don't know how war looks like.
Try not to think as republican or whatever. Just get this trough your head. This is a major abuse of power and a major embarrasment for the US.
Not to mention the costs of life and money for your country.
It should be in your best interest to punish this man, that is what you must understand. If this goes without consequences, it dispalys that such behavior is viable and it becomes natural for politicians to act that way. Be warned. It's your country.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
* the cost: our great soldiers go to war to prevent our innocent civilians from dying and property from being destroyed, USA is now viewed internationally as a big terrible bully who'll invade your nation, instead of a pansy who will run away at the slightest hint of resistance like before, US citizens are now much less of a target then they were up through 9/11, some allies and new members join terrorism while many others are removed, the US now has 670 hate groups and the KKK is making a major comeback with Arabs now added to the hate list, the media fight over who can put more of a spin on the paranoia about Bush-conspiracy theories to raise fear but are still losing ratings (which makes them less $$$), Karl Rove tries to point out that one of our Overt CIA agents is lying to the media and is accused of attempting to get him killed (talk about a traitor, jeeze, what was that agent thinking?), no apology from anyone...
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We had this debate recently and you still have not proven your point here. As for the so called security the war has brough for the US citizens... you must me joking. Look at London? Sharm el Sheik? Do you think they would not be able to do this in the US?
The situation is, if anything, getting worse from day to day.
In Pakistan (the land adjacent to Afghanistan, you know where Bin Laden is operating from ...), there are approximately 10000 Khoran schools. If only one percent (doubtful...) would be radicalising its members, and each radical school would produce about 50 fighters each year, that would mean 5000 new terrorists a year from Pakistan alone ... IF only one percent is radical ...
Also, increasing number of terrorists are reported coming from asia, from the Philipines, Indonesia, Bourma... Maybe some of you know what the Philipine muslims have cost the US in the past ...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
* media response: Plenty of attention on everything going wrong in the war in Iraq, ENDLESS DISCUSSION of lies that never happened
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What lies do you mean? Please state some examples so I don't have to shoot blindly ...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There, thats a bit more accurate. Doesn't look quite so bad for Bush now, does it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly? You know, I think he is the worst thing that happened to the US in this century and will have lasting consequences for your country and the world.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It would then also be fair to say you can't make that purple hippo go away just by closing your eyes and saying there is no such thing as purple hippos. With the way things are going now, nobody wants terrorists to use their country as a safe-haven for fear of gaining negative attention of the "Big Bully." If we ignore terrorists completely, then they would be free to amass finances and new recruits. Your second point of a perpetual war is a valid one. Time will tell how long we will have to maintain our "War on Terrorism."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe it would help greatly if you would stop poking the hippo with a stick. You know hippos are quite calm when left in peace, but when you come close to them ... well in Africa more people die on hippo attacks than by snakebite or predators combined.
If you grasp my little allegory...
And the terrorists are free to amass finances and new recruits ...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would be apt to vote for democrats if they had more people like Ben Affleck and Joe Piscopo(*), individuals that disagreed with the President but actually had something intelligent to say other than, "Bush is worse than Hitler." If all someone can do is sling mud, I have no use of their opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ohh you prefer Britney Spears right? I bet she provided with much intelligent support for Bush ...
Not just ready, already engaged in and have done so before.
Let me count the ways...
-Utterly crushing the Native American way of life
-Mexican and Spanish-American wars
-Civil War
-World Wars I/II ( both German and the allies in World War I owed us a great deal of money from arms sales. German couldn't pay becuase of blockade )
-How many skirmishes and wars during the cold war era fought to "preserve democracy?" Democracy is our way of life, yes? So is oil, by this time... Vietnam falls here, the Bay of Pigs falls here, Afganistan (first time), etc
-Gulf War 1 ( bad Iraqis, get out of Kuwait so that we can try to get oil from them )
And that brings us pretty much up to now. It's pretty plain to see why the Arabs may hate us, and it's pretty plain to see that said hatred isn't something that's gonna go away soon. So the question is, are you <i>willing</i> to preserve your own way of life, or will you just let it be thrown into chaos?
Maynard song has some bearing here...
"Life feeds on life, this is necessary..." Though I'm sure he'd throw a hissy with me quoting him in this manner. I believe the song's about vegans, not raping and pillaging other cultures.
Really, we're on the brink of civil war? What makes you think even half of the people who don't support the war in Iraq hate America.
You are failing, as so many people do, to distinguish between hating America and hating the current administration.
Our country is split in hundreds of factions with opinions on hundreds of issues; we are no where near, not even remotely close to, the way things were in 1860.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ready to shed (innocent) blood in order to maintain your own way of life? you arent worthy of it, then. and neither is anyone else who even explores the thought.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speaking of civil war a major oil shortage would be much more likely to spark one then another “war for oil” which Iraq is not entirely, although the fact it has oil is certainly a benefit.
I don’t think there is a country/nation/tribe/person that has never taken something/went to war for something from someone else for their own benefit or survival.
I mean go look at the doomsday thread on Peak Oil…clearly we need the stuff or the fires of hell shall engulf our homes and kill our first born sons.
You hit the nail. As well as many people fail to distinguish critical stances on certain policies as prejudices or animosities.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I mean go look at the doomsday thread on Peak Oil…clearly we need the stuff or the fires of hell shall engulf our homes and kill our first born sons.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. What really bothers me is that we actually fight for something that will eventually run out anyway and subsequently will be replaced and become redundant. Sad that poeple have to die for it though.
Let me count the ways...
-Utterly crushing the Native American way of life
-Mexican and Spanish-American wars
-Civil War
-World Wars I/II ( both German and the allies in World War I owed us a great deal of money from arms sales. German couldn't pay becuase of blockade )
-How many skirmishes and wars during the cold war era fought to "preserve democracy?" Democracy is our way of life, yes? So is oil, by this time... Vietnam falls here, the Bay of Pigs falls here, Afganistan (first time), etc
-Gulf War 1 ( bad Iraqis, get out of Kuwait so that we can try to get oil from them )
And that brings us pretty much up to now. It's pretty plain to see why the Arabs may hate us, and it's pretty plain to see that said hatred isn't something that's gonna go away soon. So the question is, are you willing to preserve your own way of life, or will you just let it be thrown into chaos?
Maynard song has some bearing here...
"Life feeds on life, this is necessary..." Though I'm sure he'd throw a hissy with me quoting him in this manner. I believe the song's about vegans, not raping and pillaging other cultures.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. This is a gross oversimplification of a complex history that ignores various facts. It places nearly 200 years of history that not only totally ignores the zeitgeist, but subjects history to your personal whims.
How can you judge a culture 200 years ago by contemporary morality? You can't without being unfair to the people who lived in those times. That's what cultural and moral relativity is, at least in the academic/non-political buzzword sense. Do you think that westward expansion and consequently the destruction of American Indians was the result of malicious schemes or the byproduct of Manifest Destiny, a growing population and the popularity of imperialism?
Do you really think that World War II was sparked by arms sales debts or was it more likely the crushing debts that Germany had due to the treaty of Versailles, the resulting economic depression and the scapegoating that allowed for the rise of the Nazi party? Are you contending that America's involvement in World War II was unjustified and the actions taken during the course of the war were immoral and/or illegal? Can you make such a case without resorting to an ethnocentric view?
Issues are frequently complex. Arabic sentiments toward America are a little more complex than "ZOMG! Teh aribs h8 Amerika cuz of teh warz!" It's like saying that the Civil War is the result of the North wanting to free the slaves and the South wanting to keep them enslaved. It ignores nuance and usually creates a false dichotomy.
How can you judge a culture 200 years ago by contemporary morality? You can't without being unfair to the people who lived in those times. That's what cultural and moral relativity is, at least in the academic/non-political buzzword sense. Do you think that westward expansion and consequently the destruction of American Indians was the result of malicious schemes or the byproduct of Manifest Destiny, a growing population and the popularity of imperialism?
Do you really think that World War II was sparked by arms sales debts or was it more likely the crushing debts that Germany had due to the treaty of Versailles, the resulting economic depression and the scapegoating that allowed for the rise of the Nazi party? Are you contending that America's involvement in World War II was unjustified and the actions taken during the course of the war were immoral and/or illegal? Can you make such a case without resorting to an ethnocentric view?
Issues are frequently complex. Arabic sentiments toward America are a little more complex than "ZOMG! Teh aribs h8 Amerika cuz of teh warz!" It's like saying that the Civil War is the result of the North wanting to free the slaves and the South wanting to keep them enslaved. It ignores nuance and usually creates a false dichotomy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the context I'm talking about, Manifest Destiny is one and the same with the "desire to preserve a way of life."
<a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Manifest%20Destiny' target='_blank'>Manifest Destiny</a>: A policy of imperialistic expansion defended as necessary or benevolent.
I can't judge a culture 200 years ago. I can look back with my 20/20 hindsight and see what was needed or precieved as needed, and how that need was satisfied. You're saying World War I was really started by a royal being slane in a half-botched assassination? That was just a catalyst. We didn't want a part of it, but like I said there was alot of money tied up in it. Not much more of a reason, in my opinion. Those hatreds didn't die on Novemeber 11th 1918, either. They simmered, as you said, under the treaty of Versailles. Economic depression made the German people disgruntled. Economy wiped out. Can you really blame them for being angry. Angry enough to kill? When money is more useful as firewood, what's there to have pride in?
What would happen to the US without oil? Probably the same thing. At least it will until we find a better way to live.
Now, the civil war, you should know, was never about slavery. The slaves had it pretty good compared to immigrants and indentured servants up north, if one can look past the obvious despicibles of <i>owning</i> another human life. The war was simply about the north trying to tell the south what to do. Specifically, the north may have said, "Look, we have immigrants up here who work for hardly anything. And when they collapse from exhaustion, we can simply hire new ones! Do it our way!" Much more forcefully, of course.
The south wouldn't have this. They had their own states rights. Ideologies clash for land, power, and preservation of way of life. What's happening in the middle east right now? Democracy is much better for them, no?
National governments walk a fine line. A line that frequently takes them down scary roads where lives become numbers in a spreadsheat. It's not pretty, but it's the truth. And it's not right, it's not wrong, it's not moral or immoral. It just is. All the words we use to describe such things are relative and pretty much immaterial.
Is it just me or does this read like the opening to a very good book?
Also I agree. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That's completely rediculous. Certainly there are some politicians who have few values beyond "do whatever it takes to get elected", but to assume that therefore it is impossible for any president to have his own personal values is absurd. If anything, Bush has shown himself to be <i>less</i> poll-driven and <i>more</i> driven by his own values than most presidents. (Whether or not you agree with those values is another topic entirely...)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
* the lie: WMD's in Iraq, which is now known to have not been a lie at all, but merely insufficient information, based on British Intelligence which is still supported by all available facts.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ohhh interesting... which facts?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I probably mis-spoke there. I was specifically referring to the particular intelligence that was most recently in the news, regarding Iraq's attempts to buy Uranium from Niger, which came up again in the Robert Novak scandal. That intelligence is still thought to be valid, with the only point against it being that Novak disagrees. (nevermind how he would know anything about it...)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (ironically Bush never was involved in the lie part, which leads you to believe that someone else must have fooled him the same way they did it in a work of fiction, in order to fulfill your preconceived notions of how the government works)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is the point you miss. Politicians do not act morally if you do not force them. So it does not matter whether he was the evil mastermind or simply the ignorant idiot I suspect him to be. It is of no consequence whether it was unscrupulousness or incompetence. He is the head of state and he must be responsible for his staff and his intelligence angencies and his army!
Just get this through your head: A war was started based on mistakes. A war, not a small financial scandal or something. A War. That means dead people.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wasn't an incompetent mistake in the Bush administration that sent us to war. We had about a half a dozen separate reasons for the war. Perhaps most importantly, the intelligence suggesting Iraq was building WMDs, mistaken or not, did not originate with the Bush administration, but had existed for years, and was sufficient to convince the majority of both the US and UK governments before Bush was ever even elected. The nations that remained unconvinced were, by and large, the nations recieving under-the-table payments from Saddam who had vested interest in his remaining in power.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Remember 9/11 if you don't know how war looks like.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, I remember. Perhaps you've forgotten that the 9/11 plan was in progress before Bush, that ultimate evil of evils, was even elected?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Try not to think as republican or whatever. Just get this trough your head. This is a major abuse of power and a major embarrasment for the US. Not to mention the costs of life and money for your country. It should be in your best interest to punish this man, that is what you must understand. If this goes without consequences, it dispalys that such behavior is viable and it becomes natural for politicians to act that way. Be warned. It's your country.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed it is my country. And <i>I</i> happen to want <i>more</i> politicians who act that way. Therefore, I consider it in my best interests to prevent any punishment of Bush.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
* the cost: our great soldiers go to war to prevent our innocent civilians from dying and property from being destroyed, USA is now viewed internationally as a big terrible bully who'll invade your nation, instead of a pansy who will run away at the slightest hint of resistance like before, US citizens are now much less of a target then they were up through 9/11, some allies and new members join terrorism while many others are removed, the US now has 670 hate groups and the KKK is making a major comeback with Arabs now added to the hate list, the media fight over who can put more of a spin on the paranoia about Bush-conspiracy theories to raise fear but are still losing ratings (which makes them less $$$), Karl Rove tries to point out that one of our Overt CIA agents is lying to the media and is accused of attempting to get him killed (talk about a traitor, jeeze, what was that agent thinking?), no apology from anyone...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We had this debate recently and you still have not proven your point here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which debate? There's a lot of points in that list, many of them completely unrelated. You can't be referring to the Novak scandal, can you? That one was completely unfounded...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As for the so called security the war has brough for the US citizens... you must me joking. Look at London? Sharm el Sheik? Do you think they would not be able to do this in the US?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well--it hasn't happened so far. It's been almost 4 years now since the last attack on US soil, and thats something.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The situation is, if anything, getting worse from day to day.
In Pakistan (the land adjacent to Afghanistan, you know where Bin Laden is operating from ...), there are approximately 10000 Khoran schools. If only one percent (doubtful...) would be radicalising its members, and each radical school would produce about 50 fighters each year, that would mean 5000 new terrorists a year from Pakistan alone ... IF only one percent is radical ...Also, increasing number of terrorists are reported coming from asia, from the Philipines, Indonesia, Bourma... Maybe some of you know what the Philipine muslims have cost the US in the past ...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You may indeed be right here. But <i>at least we're doing something about it!</i> We aren't going to make all these problems go away by doing nothing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> * media response: Plenty of attention on everything going wrong in the war in Iraq, ENDLESS DISCUSSION of lies that never happened
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What lies do you mean? Please state some examples so I don't have to shoot blindly ...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh...just for example..."Karl Rove outed Valerie Plame as retaliation!", "Bush used a discredited report about Iraq buying yellowcake from Niger", and the ever-popular over-generalization, "Bush lied about WMD!"
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There, thats a bit more accurate. Doesn't look quite so bad for Bush now, does it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly? You know, I think he is the worst thing that happened to the US in this century and will have lasting consequences for your country and the world. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Based on "your country", I'm guessing you are not living in the US? In that case, what are you doing arguing with me over what the US media says about the president anyway?
Everything that made your country this free and powerful.
People are inside of the USA are worried about laws like the first and second "patriot act", which throws your great constitution out of the window. Just like european people are worried about the "european arrest warrant" which moves in a similar direction.
By following the events within your 2 last elections, noticing the uppish behaviour of the USA's government towards other countrys in this so called "war against terror" and embarrassments like Guantanamo, make many people start to ask of which kind the "democracy" is, the US want to take into the world.
The Bush administration could have counteracted many conspiracy theorys about iraq by just accomplishing some serious investigations, without any chairman with ominous connections to saudi-arabia. But nothing ever happend. Nobody was fired for an unjustified war against a souvereign state. Either they don't want to investigate, because they know that they are wrong, or they are not able to investigate what went wrong with important institution like the secret services. But then they are incompetent and presidents have been dispossessed for much more marginal things like incompetence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People are inside of the USA are worried about laws like the first and second "patriot act", which throws your great constitution out of the window.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As one who is inside the USA, I am not concerned about our Constitution being thrown out the window. Specifics in the law that concern privacy issues are questionable and will be tested but these laws are not creating a new Soviet Russia. <a href='http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ucwb/20050723/cm_ucwb/isthepatriotactpatriotic' target='_blank'>Honest critique of the Patriot Act revisions.</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By following the events within your 2 last elections, noticing the uppish behaviour of the USA's government towards other countrys in this so called "war against terror" and embarrassments like Guantanamo, make many people start to ask of which kind the "democracy" is, the US want to take into the world.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not embarassed by Guantanamo but I sure know what democracy can do for a society. Contrary to radical beliefs, <a href='http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20050720/cm_usatoday/guantanamooutragehingeson5myths/nc:742' target='_blank'>Gitmo is not Hell on Earth.</a> And, freedom isn't something that's given to people-it can only be taken away. Bush makes this linguistic mistake often but the plan is to remove the regimes in these countries who demand tyrannical control (aka Taliban, Saddam).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Bush administration could have counteracted many conspiracy theorys about iraq by just accomplishing some serious investigations, without any chairman with ominous connections to saudi-arabia. But nothing ever happend. Nobody was fired for an unjustified war against a souvereign state. Either they don't want to investigate, because they know that they are wrong, or they are not able to investigate what went wrong with important institution like the secret services. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These types of investigations take place all the time. The reason you don't hear about them is that the answers don't support the anti-US establishment in the press. That, and they often require extensive reading and understanding that doesn't fit into 15 second sound bites.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But then they are incompetent and presidents have been dispossessed for much more marginal things like incompetence.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This means nothing to me. Maybe you could give some examples?
Ohh you prefer Britney Spears right? I bet she provided with much intelligent support for Bush ...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I was merely using those two as an example. Every other point of view from a Democrat I saw was nothing but hate speech directed towards the President. I don't even know or care who that woman voted for.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legat+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legat)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I bet she provided with much intelligent support for Bush ...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, provide she much with intelligent support Bush, for.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legat+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legat)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe it would help greatly if you would stop poking the hippo with a stick. You know hippos are quite calm when left in peace, but when you come close to them ... well in Africa more people die on hippo attacks than by snakebite or predators combined. If you grasp my little allegory...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They flew planes into our buildings. At this point I'm sure you'll point out how something else happened first to make them do such a thing. But that still doesn't change the fact that they crashed into our buildings, and now they're the ones paying for poking the even bigger hippo with a stick.
You have people like this...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->U.S. military
A group of systematically brainwashed fascist trained by our great government to tell other cultures that they have been doing things wrong for thousands of years and that our "freedom" is the only thing that can possibly be correct.
<a href='http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=U.S.+military' target='_blank'>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=U.S.+military</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you will have people like this...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->U.S. "blue states"
The small number of states where the majority of the citizens chose to elect a Giant Deusch instead of a Turd Sandwich for president.
<a href='http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=U.S.+%22blue+states%22' target='_blank'>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?...2blue+states%22</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you will have people like this...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->liberal
see also idiot, ------, head in --- and did i say idiot?
<a href='http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=liberal' target='_blank'>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=liberal</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And <b>there's nothing you can do to change it.</b>
People are born into their endless loathing. Their parents raise them as "accepting liberals" or "proud conservatives" and they turn into flame-spewing jerks who have nothing better to do than to stand on a soapbox and demonize huge demographics in a pitiful attempt to make themselves look better.
Do you want to see what this looks like on the internet? Step out of our little padded box- we are blessed with intelligent users and tough moderators, so we can actually have meaningful discussions here. Outside of our playpen, it's ugly.
<a href='http://www.mektek.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=68&t=41740' target='_blank'>UGLY.</a>
That's flaming on the internet, and that's mild stuff. In real life, it looks kind of like that thread, but eighty times less informed and three hundred times more insulting.
You're powerless to stop the brigades of black-and-white pundits who wish to assimilate you into their all-or-nothing platforms, so why waste time arguing with them? Cast your vote how you see it, get it over with, and give a nice, hearty "screw you" to the stereotyping armies of Mordor.
Have you ever been actively invloved in politics? I don't mean demonstrating or anything but real political work in a party and such? I have. It is dirty. Even in the youth organisations. Politicians are like a liquid. They take on the shape of the bottle they have to fill. All of them. of course there are exception to that rule. I know one of them personally. But those people don't become head of state or anything even remotely close.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It wasn't an incompetent mistake in the Bush administration that sent us to war. We had about a half a dozen separate reasons for the war.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yet they had to use those based on inacurate information and wonder when some some "old europeans" don't buy it ....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, I remember. Perhaps you've forgotten that the 9/11 plan was in progress before Bush, that ultimate evil of evils, was even elected?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps you forgot that 9/11 was not even remotely related to Saddam, so why attack Iraq? Yes, I know, there were reasons.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But at least we're doing something about it!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, you make it worse. We had this a few days ago so let's keep it there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Indeed it is my country. And I happen to want more politicians who act that way. Therefore, I consider it in my best interests to prevent any punishment of Bush.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very sad that your nation does not draft its soldiers atm. You possibly would reconsider.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well--it hasn't happened so far. It's been almost 4 years now since the last attack on US soil, and thats something.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes but you forget the attacks on the coalition partners and the mess in Iraq don't you? Besides, have you ever considered that there are no attacks in the US right now because it would strenghten the US populations reslove in the Iraq question?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Based on "your country", I'm guessing you are not living in the US? In that case, what are you doing arguing with me over what the US media says about the president anyway?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because the worlds economy in unfortunately tied to the dollar, so the mess your president makes falls back on all of us.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE (Legat)
I bet she provided with much intelligent support for Bush ...
Yes, provide she much with intelligent support Bush, for.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go and learn to speak and write my language as well as I do yours and then come back buddy ...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They flew planes into our buildings. At this point I'm sure you'll point out how something else happened first to make them do such a thing. But that still doesn't change the fact that they crashed into our buildings, and now they're the ones paying for poking the even bigger hippo with a stick.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bin Laden planned and initiated the strike. Not Saddam. So why are you in Iraq while Bin Laden is still out there?
You have people like this...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->U.S. military
A group of systematically brainwashed fascist trained by our great government to tell other cultures that they have been doing things wrong for thousands of years and that our "freedom" is the only thing that can possibly be correct.
<a href='http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=U.S.+military' target='_blank'>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=U.S.+military</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you will have people like this...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->U.S. "blue states"
The small number of states where the majority of the citizens chose to elect a Giant Deusch instead of a Turd Sandwich for president.
<a href='http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=U.S.+%22blue+states%22' target='_blank'>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?...2blue+states%22</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you will have people like this...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->liberal
see also idiot, ------, head in --- and did i say idiot?
<a href='http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=liberal' target='_blank'>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=liberal</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And <b>there's nothing you can do to change it.</b>
People are born into their endless loathing. Their parents raise them as "accepting liberals" or "proud conservatives" and they turn into flame-spewing jerks who have nothing better to do than to stand on a soapbox and demonize huge demographics in a pitiful attempt to make themselves look better.
Do you want to see what this looks like on the internet? Step out of our little padded box- we are blessed with intelligent users and tough moderators, so we can actually have meaningful discussions here. Outside of our playpen, it's ugly.
<a href='http://www.mektek.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=68&t=41740' target='_blank'>UGLY.</a>
That's flaming on the internet, and that's mild stuff. In real life, it looks kind of like that thread, but eighty times less informed and three hundred times more insulting.
You're powerless to stop the brigades of black-and-white pundits who wish to assimilate you into their all-or-nothing platforms, so why waste time arguing with them? Cast your vote how you see it, get it over with, and give a nice, hearty "screw you" to the stereotyping armies of Mordor. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You win the thread. You can take the boat or the MYSTERY BOX as your prize.
Honestly these two political parties are so full of hatred and are so incompatible with one another that it's making the country as a whole suffer big time, in every aspect of society. It's sad that our only choices for president are George W. Bush and John Kerry. Was I the only one sitting at home during the election process saying "IS THIS THE BEST OUR COUNTRY HAS TO OFFER?!" (if you say yes I'm gonna bop you one).
Any time you have people accepting beliefs just because of their party affiliation, democracy has taken another blow. Flipping it around, the same is true when someone's beliefs are discarded just because of their party affiliation. Just listen. "Will it work?" "What are the drawbacks?" "Is it practical?" NOT "It's a liberal media circus." "Something bad happened and the Republicans are in charge, I blame them" "More liberal whining" "Just sounds like something the Bush administration cooked up"
Honest to god guys, we need to break down this two party thing through some serious cooperation, whether it all be in a legitimate third party or a legitimate third, fourth, and fifth party. Third parties just continue to fail miserably...it's not enough to rake in a few thousand more voters for a party and call it progress while the damage is still being done. We need more figures in politics that live outside of all this left and right crap and can just be viewed as individuals with good or bad ideas, and go from there. It's flat out ugly, like semipsychotic says.
And those urbandictionary entries are HILARIOUS.
The concerns are that the US are close to loosing their democracy and freedom, because of the constant fear of terrorists. (which have been teached by CIA as long as the US needed them to fight against the soviets.) People may voluntary give up their civil rights. This is what adult and educated US citizens fear. And US government does nothing to take their fears away.
A president using middleage language ("they are bad and evil people" "they use drills to torture innocent" x_X) should be stripped of all powers now !
But I guess semipsychotic is right ^^. Each party has its own sources and calls the sources of the other party as wrong and dependent.
This is leading to another nice theory, that there are secret societys that build up competing parties just play them off against each other, and setup the synthesis they planned before (eclectic system) <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So all we are doing is playing to their hands. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Because the worlds economy in unfortunately tied to the dollar, so the mess your president makes falls back on all of us. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not my point. If you want to argue with me over whether invading Iraq was smart, I'm all for it. If you want to argue with me over whether or not this is an effective answer to terrorism, go right ahead. But if you aren't <i>IN</i> the US, than I'm not going to pay much attention when you try to tell me what topics the US media has and hasn't been covering.
I guess you are aware that US media pretty much don't cover anything from outside the the boarders except it's directly affecting the US or is a calamity of some sort. Well, its not like that everywhere in the world ...
Since we touched the topic:
I have been told by some americans that many US citizens are still not aware that Saddam was not related to 9/11 and had no WMDs. Such is bad media coverage and that bothers me. It bothers me, when the great US newspapers, the supposed watchers of democracy and bane of Nixon do fall in line and transport this farce.
Also I find it funny that all of a sudden, when they don't follow the drill anymore, they are suddenly "the evil media" that dig for dirt, while they were quoted by Bush supporters about the "supposed findings" of WMDs in Iraq awhile ago. Should I dig up some links from this board when the networks were still "credible" for the war supporters? For the sake of old times you know ...
That is not a good development. That is dangerous and when you don't understand this you have a problem.
At least try to understand this. Your whole media machinery fell for a ruse ( or a mistake if you prefer) and the whole nation was set up for Iraq.
The tendencie of calling critical voices anti-american, unpatriotic, liberals or whatever does not make it look better either. (as well as resemlances to fashism and Hitler on the other side ... )
Whatever opinion you support, Cxwf, you must always consider, that mass media in itself carries the possibility of abuse. Mass media easily shift from an instrument of knowlege to a tool of desinformation. You should keep this in mind, and the Iraq situation is wonderful exmple on this. You could write a doctoral thesis on this. Perfect stuff.
It begins with the sources you consume. Your news sources are made for <i>you</i>. They have a target audience and the "produce" news for them. It is like any product on the market, strictly marketed and placed on a certain niche. If you want to get a bigger picture, you must either use completely independent yet credible sources ( not easy...) , or compare 2 obviously opposing positions and find the truth somewhere in the middle.
Especially the US media have an issue with information centered on the US.
That is why so many US citizens are astonished when confronted with the idea that those terrorists might have a deeper angenda than burning flags and destroying skyscrapers.
Also, most US citizens do have a twisted concept of war, because all they see is fighting or victorious troops. No corpses, no wounded. Shock is great when footage of US troops shooting incapacitated combatans occurs. Then we talk about isloated cases ...
Now all we think about is the poor policemen blown up by suicide bombers. We do not talk about the piles of recently executed Iraqis buried with bulldozers on broad daylight in Baghdad. We do not see the war that is going on under the eyes of the US occupation. We do not see how the Shi'ites are taking it out on their former opressors.
<a href='http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1700981,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,...1700981,00.html</a>
There is no sensibility for the reasons for this kind of hatred and that those reasons are directly related to the US foreign politics.
Of course, this is not exclusively a problem of the US!
When debating the topic with europeans, they probably are aware about the middle eastern crisis and their origins. If so, the ultimate evil is usually the US. Yet they don't consider that their car runs on oil too ...
It's also worthy of note that socio/political/cultural animosities have existed in the area of Iraq for longer than the US has existed. But, I'm certain that nobody ever died there until the US military showed up. Clearly that places all fault on the US.
As she pays him, distant thunder rolls.
The boy yells something in Spanish as he runs off.
SARAH
What did he say?
ATTENDANT
(accented)
There is a storm coming in.
Sarah gazes at the thunderheads building up out over the desert. Heat lightning pulses in their depths.
SARAH
(quietly)
I know.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
***Locked***