But there is one BIG problem with armor 2 and 3 that usually makes Weaps 2 and 3 a better choice.
Say a weaps upgraded marine goes out and gets attacked by a skulk. He manages to kill the skulk after being hit once, and the com meds him. He's lost most of his armor, but hes still got his weaps upgrades for the next encounter.
Now say an armor upgraded marine goes out and gets attacked by a skulk. With less damage, the skulk bites him twice--but the extra armor keeps him alive and he kills the skulk. Com meds him. Same result? Not hardly. Now he's lost most of his armor, AND has no weapons upgrades, and so hes basically a 0/0 LA marine for his next encounter.
Thats the crucial problem with armor upgrades--weapons upgrades continue to affect you as long as you are alive, but armor upgrades disappear after you start getting hit. That doesn't make them useless (this disadvantage can be countered by smart use of welders), but its enough to tip the balance in favor of weapons upgrades most of the time.
i prefer lvl 2 armor before lvl 3 weapons, i always want to kill comms who have 3/1, lvl 3 weapons doesn't help nearly as much as lvl 2 armor. If aliens go sens first i prefer a2 before w2, my normal arms lab upgrade path is a1 > w1 > w2 > a2 > w3 > a3. w2 and a2 are pretty much interchangable according to situation.
And lerk spores actually supports lvl 2 armor first, it takes much more time in spores to be 2 swipes/bites and virtually no time at all with a1.
Darkling, as others have said, most glaring weakness in your A2-first strat is an early Fade(which, as I'm sure you know, is an extremely common occurrence). Going straight for A2, you would be lucky to have W1 by the time that fade shows up, and forget about having an Adv. Armory and HMGs, unless you blow all of your team's res on that. L0 weapons are child's play against a Fade, and L1 isn't much better. Killing a Fade is all about hitting it hard and fast, which means weapon upgrades; your scenario revolves around the Fade being retarded enough to keep attacking your marines and being hit by their peashooters until he's virtually dead, which no experienced player ever does(intentionally). It's crucial that you have your weapons upgraded as high as possible as soon as possible, after Armor 1; with Weapons 0, even HMGs are a waste of res that will just be killed away from the base and camped by the Fade.
In a nutshell, a decent Fade will annihilate your marines if you don't give them weapon upgrades. Armor 2 is a nominal improvement, but Weapons 1/2 is absolutely crucial.
I always did a W1, A1, W2, A2 etc approach to my weapons and armor upgrades. I always felt that your STOCK LA marine should be as good as he can be WITHOUT you burning more res on him. I've been known to rush W3 and ignore anything higher then A1 for a bit just so I can pump the dmg.
You can drop health or go to the armory to increase your health to 100 if you survice the alien attack but to repair your armor you have to drop a welder and then the players have to get there stuff together enough to use it on each other! This really happens in Pubs. W1, 2 & 3 is a return every time a marine pulls the triger while A1 2 & 3 are gone until the marines get a welder. I will always get W1 before A1
Marines don't need more than armor 1 unless you're going HA and even then I wouldn't bother with more than armor 2, whereas weapons level 3 ASAP is absolutely crucial against good fades. It often means the difference between the fade dying or escaping with like 42 HP. It's also a strong psychological factor against them. W3 really really hurts, they'll be a more reserved in their aggressiveness, giving your marines more breathing room.
If you want your marines to last longer, drop a couple of welders and tell them to weld each other. Try it sometimes.
Mmm Why dont you just fit the second all there to get the a2 while you still get w2 coming that al will only cost around 10res plus the upgrade. Sure you can push 2 al somewhere even if you are with bit low res, naturally im speaking about pubs. In matches those res should go to to the guns and welders which are heaviyl needed there to get troops alive and rt`s down.
armour 1 is useful in the sense that at the early start of games, you won't fall prey easily to para than bite twice scenario, that extra one more bite could make the difference between life and death.
similarly, with aliens innate regeneration, you have to fire 1 more bullet provided the skulk is not hit and run +regenration. That 1 more bullet is also critical, getting weapons 1 will eliminate that extra bullet which can save your life.
I believe that many players have encountered these very close shaves before so both upgrades seems feasible and there is no reason why you should diss weapons 1 in favour of armour 1 always unless you encounteer a happy parasiting alien team
<!--QuoteBegin-Misere+Jul 18 2005, 04:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Misere @ Jul 18 2005, 04:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I will always get W1 before A1 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And you will continue to lose games due to lacking armor. 2 hit fade kills are SIMPLE. 1 parasite negates a 3rd bite. 3 LMG bullets to friendly fire also does the trick. Spores will ruin your res flow to meds, or you could let your marines die to it and complain they can't aim rather than fixing a flawed stratigy. A million res in weaponry is not going to compete with a lifespan of 1.5 seconds.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Pls remind that the point of this tactis is to PUSH.
> AA > send out rines for RTs > armor1 (keep pushing versus those skulks, medspam, keep pushing for rts) > lerk apear, armor2 is on the way, kiss gas goodbye, keep pushing for maintaining rts > fade apear, weapons1 near done, AA done. By this time they lost res for lerk, pushed there res in fade and ups and by lack of rts have no hive.
Point is to push to limit there chance for fade aswell.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kobayashi+Jul 8 2005, 04:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kobayashi @ Jul 8 2005, 04:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ignoring all the "well i have this and this and this as well"
this is basically a comparison between weapons 2 and armour 2.
It has been shown that armour 2 doesn't help marines much. It has been shown that extra damage from weapons 2 helps.
so show us how armour 2 could help more than weapons 2 instead of running away and saying "I have hmgs!". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> lemme requote myself, you still haven't answered the main point.
I think he's right Koba. You need more experience comming and more knowledge. I think you should admit this guys 1337n355, take your licks like a man and not say anything else. I mean, he did answer your question exactly by not saying anything of value and saying you need to play more if that is your opinion. Tbh, the reply should be stickied as one of the best and straightest to the point replies in posting history. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Armor 1 will always help more than weapons 1. This, however, is not true for armor 2 vs weapons 2. Weapons 2 is one of THE most important upgrades a marine team can get. It lowers the amount of pistol bullets it takes to kill a skulk from 5 to 4, HMG bullets to kill a skulk from 5 to 4, the amount of SG shots to kill a fade from 4 to 3, enables you to one shot kill a lerk with an SG if it's taken just about ANY form of damage, and greatly reduces the average lifespan of any alien. HMG's will decimate anything that would normally be escaping with what could be a few hundred extra HP's.
However, all this killing power is absolutly worthless if the marine cannot sustain himself in combat for a decent amount of time. Armor one ensures that the said marine will be able to take hits and keep on shooting. Armor one with med support is absolutly devistating- with one medpack, you increase the marine's lifespan from 3 to 4 hits vs a skulk.
Now take into consideration, armor 2. Armor 2 doesn't make the marine's clip size any larger. It doesn't make the marine deal more damage as the marine reloads. Armor 2 before weapons two does NOT give the said marine the killing power nessessary to deal with a good lifeform. It will ensure a lazy comm can relax a bit more vs aliens already getting stomped by marines with very little/no weapon upgrades. Fighting those aliens that understand when a marine simply LACKS the ability to kill them with the remainder of their clip, or the ability to kill them before they are able to kill the marine will result in what will appear to the marines and comm, a wasted upgrade.
Don't get me wrong, armor 2 is a valuable upgrade. I usually prefer it to weapons 3 because of its lower cost and faster research time, and how it essentially makes smart marines still at least have armor around the armor 1 level should they encounter spores. This is a nice benefit, but does not outweigh the advantages weapons 2 provides.
Howabout just squeezing second al jsut to get w2 and a2 almost same time? Sure you might need to let few sgs go to the upgrades but after all wouldnt it be worth it?
<!--QuoteBegin-DC Darkling+Jul 4 2005, 11:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DC Darkling @ Jul 4 2005, 11:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We all know good comms get armor1 first. But why does it stop there? Why armor1 > weapons3 > then armor ups. for the love of flayra WHY? I always get armor2 first, sometimes ever armor3.. here is why:
Lets first asume pub play: * aim is crap * teamplay is like not there <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Add on 12 vs 12 teams, which is why you have a chance to get every upgrade you want in time for the fade.
Let's assume pub play: People are turds and do not work together, therefore do not weld eachother unless you waste your time yelling at them. Thus, I always go for weapons after armor1. Plus, armor2 doesn't do much until you have armor3.
Why Weapon 1 first? Because the Marines generally went Armor 1 first, but then they were given all the benefits of that by default. So now there's no point to Armor 1 first, just Weapons 1.
And now since Marines will generally be going Weapons 1 first, we should give the Marines guns that deal 11 / 22 damage by default just to even things up. Of course everyone will go Armor 1 first then so we'll just have to keep increasing it back and forth until the pistol is a one-shot kill and Marines start with HAs.
I agree with the W1 first for reasons people have stated, but lots of armor can also annoy fades/skulks when it takes that many more hits to kill them (you usually expect it to be 3 and you assume they're dead), but when it turns out they're not, you have to turn back around and hit them a few more times. This is usually after you have W2/3 first though. This allows for your marines to dish out more damage making the enemy retreat faster and stay out of the battle longer.
<!--QuoteBegin-DC Darkling+Jul 5 2005, 07:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DC Darkling @ Jul 5 2005, 07:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> yes, I mean with medpacks.
Also the meaning of this is having HMG ready against fades. My HMGs are long done before I see a fade on the entire map.
Also, ziggy.. if you don't understand jokes when you read them, you are the retarted one.
Also I trust on getting HA ready, lvl2 HA will keep you alive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> its retarded, not retarted.
and like the other people said, its pointless to max armor before weapons because there's no difference in the number of bites from a1 -> a2. There's a higher chance that marines will kill the fade or what have you with level 3 guns instead of level 3 armor.
Comments
this is basically a comparison between weapons 2 and armour 2.
It has been shown that armour 2 doesn't help marines much. It has been shown that extra damage from weapons 2 helps.
so show us how armour 2 could help more than weapons 2 instead of running away and saying "I have hmgs!".
But there is one BIG problem with armor 2 and 3 that usually makes Weaps 2 and 3 a better choice.
Say a weaps upgraded marine goes out and gets attacked by a skulk. He manages to kill the skulk after being hit once, and the com meds him. He's lost most of his armor, but hes still got his weaps upgrades for the next encounter.
Now say an armor upgraded marine goes out and gets attacked by a skulk. With less damage, the skulk bites him twice--but the extra armor keeps him alive and he kills the skulk. Com meds him. Same result? Not hardly. Now he's lost most of his armor, AND has no weapons upgrades, and so hes basically a 0/0 LA marine for his next encounter.
Thats the crucial problem with armor upgrades--weapons upgrades continue to affect you as long as you are alive, but armor upgrades disappear after you start getting hit. That doesn't make them useless (this disadvantage can be countered by smart use of welders), but its enough to tip the balance in favor of weapons upgrades most of the time.
And lerk spores actually supports lvl 2 armor first, it takes much more time in spores to be 2 swipes/bites and virtually no time at all with a1.
In a nutshell, a decent Fade will annihilate your marines if you don't give them weapon upgrades. Armor 2 is a nominal improvement, but Weapons 1/2 is absolutely crucial.
You can drop health or go to the armory to increase your health to 100 if you survice the alien attack but to repair your armor you have to drop a welder and then the players have to get there stuff together enough to use it on each other! This really happens in Pubs. W1, 2 & 3 is a return every time a marine pulls the triger while A1 2 & 3 are gone until the marines get a welder. I will always get W1 before A1
If you want your marines to last longer, drop a couple of welders and tell them to weld each other. Try it sometimes.
similarly, with aliens innate regeneration, you have to fire 1 more bullet provided the skulk is not hit and run +regenration. That 1 more bullet is also critical, getting weapons 1 will eliminate that extra bullet which can save your life.
I believe that many players have encountered these very close shaves before
so both upgrades seems feasible and there is no reason why you should diss weapons 1 in favour of armour 1 always unless you encounteer a happy parasiting alien team
And you will continue to lose games due to lacking armor. 2 hit fade kills are SIMPLE. 1 parasite negates a 3rd bite. 3 LMG bullets to friendly fire also does the trick. Spores will ruin your res flow to meds, or you could let your marines die to it and complain they can't aim rather than fixing a flawed stratigy. A million res in weaponry is not going to compete with a lifespan of 1.5 seconds.
> AA
> send out rines for RTs
> armor1 (keep pushing versus those skulks, medspam, keep pushing for rts)
> lerk apear, armor2 is on the way, kiss gas goodbye, keep pushing for maintaining rts
> fade apear, weapons1 near done, AA done. By this time they lost res for lerk, pushed there res in fade and ups and by lack of rts have no hive.
Point is to push to limit there chance for fade aswell.
this is basically a comparison between weapons 2 and armour 2.
It has been shown that armour 2 doesn't help marines much. It has been shown that extra damage from weapons 2 helps.
so show us how armour 2 could help more than weapons 2 instead of running away and saying "I have hmgs!". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lemme requote myself, you still haven't answered the main point.
However, all this killing power is absolutly worthless if the marine cannot sustain himself in combat for a decent amount of time. Armor one ensures that the said marine will be able to take hits and keep on shooting. Armor one with med support is absolutly devistating- with one medpack, you increase the marine's lifespan from 3 to 4 hits vs a skulk.
Now take into consideration, armor 2. Armor 2 doesn't make the marine's clip size any larger. It doesn't make the marine deal more damage as the marine reloads. Armor 2 before weapons two does NOT give the said marine the killing power nessessary to deal with a good lifeform. It will ensure a lazy comm can relax a bit more vs aliens already getting stomped by marines with very little/no weapon upgrades. Fighting those aliens that understand when a marine simply LACKS the ability to kill them with the remainder of their clip, or the ability to kill them before they are able to kill the marine will result in what will appear to the marines and comm, a wasted upgrade.
Don't get me wrong, armor 2 is a valuable upgrade. I usually prefer it to weapons 3 because of its lower cost and faster research time, and how it essentially makes smart marines still at least have armor around the armor 1 level should they encounter spores. This is a nice benefit, but does not outweigh the advantages weapons 2 provides.
Lets first asume pub play:
* aim is crap
* teamplay is like not there <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Add on 12 vs 12 teams, which is why you have a chance to get every upgrade you want in time for the fade.
People are turds and do not work together, therefore do not weld eachother unless you waste your time yelling at them. Thus, I always go for weapons after armor1. Plus, armor2 doesn't do much until you have armor3.
Because the Marines generally went Armor 1 first, but then they were given all the benefits of that by default. So now there's no point to Armor 1 first, just Weapons 1.
And now since Marines will generally be going Weapons 1 first, we should give the Marines guns that deal 11 / 22 damage by default just to even things up. Of course everyone will go Armor 1 first then so we'll just have to keep increasing it back and forth until the pistol is a one-shot kill and Marines start with HAs.
Also the meaning of this is having HMG ready against fades. My HMGs are long done before I see a fade on the entire map.
Also, ziggy.. if you don't understand jokes when you read them, you are the retarted one.
Also I trust on getting HA ready, lvl2 HA will keep you alive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
its retarded, not retarted.
and like the other people said, its pointless to max armor before weapons because there's no difference in the number of bites from a1 -> a2. There's a higher chance that marines will kill the fade or what have you with level 3 guns instead of level 3 armor.